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Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Feb 10, 2007.

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  1. Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    The word all in the original language means "all, every, any".

    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    Again the Greek word for none means "absolute negative or none".
    There are no exceptions in humanity- none.

    Mary calls God her Savior if she had no sin she would not need a Savior as only sinners need salvation:
    Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    That is specifically why God overshadowed or covered her:

    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Jesus is God from before time. He made all that was, is or ever will be.
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Jesus came to pay the price for our sins.
    He needed an human body to do so.
    This human body came from a quite human girl named Mary. She gave him His fleshly body but He existed before anything else.

  2. Honestly that is the least convincing presentation I have ever heard. LoL!

    The Greek word used for Joe knowing little Mary was :
    From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament-
    ginosko and in this particular sentence is a verb used to convey the thought of connection or union, as between man and woman, Mat_1:25; Luk_1:34.
    This is the exact same word used by little Mary as she timidly responded to the angel saying she had not yet had sex:
    Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Joe would not have been a good Hebrew husband if he would not have at least tried to give her many children and she would have been considered outcast and substandard if she had not tried to have as many children as possible- this was the way of the Hebrew people.
  3. But back to the Apocrypha- this is an excellent and well researched article on the subject:

    The Apocrypha Exposed! Part 1

    "It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

    "They are the following: of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second. Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

    "If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema…" (Council of Trent, 4th Session, April 8, 1546, "Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures")

    With these words, the Roman Catholic Canon of Scripture finally was set, more than 1,200 years after the Roman bishops, with the backing of Constantine, arrogated to themselves authority over all the Christian church. This was the first council in the history of the Western Church to officially define the Canon of Scripture.

    In support of the inclusion of 12 books of the Apocrypha in the canon, Trent pointed to two regional councils which met under Augustine's leadership in Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.). The bishops of Trent claimed these councils formally defined the canon as including the Apocrypha.

    There are a couple of things wrong with this claim: 1) these were regional councils not authorized to speak for the church as a whole; and 2) the endorsement they gave the Apocrypha was quite different from what the RCC claims – a matter I shall deal with later.

    The claims of Trent ignore the very significant fact that there was an established canon of Scripture long before anyone met in church council at Hippo or Carthage. There is a strong body of evidence that the Old Testament canon found in the Christian Bible (non-Catholic) is the same as that used in Palestine at the time of Christ's ministry. That canon did not include the Apocrypha. Christ referred to Scriptures in Luke 24:44:

    "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

    Neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament writers ever once quoted from the Apocrypha. There are 263 quotations and 370 references to the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them refers to the Apocrypha

    The RCC herself acknowledges that the Jews did not accept the Apocrypha, for it was not a part of the Hebrew canon. A respected Catholic source informs:

    "For the Old Testament, however, Protestants follow the Jewish canon; they have only the Old Testament books that are in the Hebrew Bible." ("New Catholic Encyclopedia," Vol. II, 'Canon, Biblical' (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 29)

    What about the Jewish canon? How was it developed? Jews believed that God reveals His will to and through inspired people. Essentially, they accepted three means for receiving divine revelation:

    "Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet…" (Jeremiah 18:18)

    Priests learned the will of God through the Urim and Thummin, which were sacred objects carried inside the breastplate of the high priest. These were used as oracular media to divine the will of God.

    God Himself disclosed to Moses the means of sanctification and atonement. These became the means of sustaining the divine-human relationship.

    The prophets, or wise men, were God's spokesmen. The words they spoke were God's words. The sayings and writings of the prophets were preserved (Isaiah 8:16, Jeremiah 36), and widely circulated in ancient times. Sometime between the 4th and 2nd Centuries B.C., the prophetic canon seems to have been firmed into two groupings. Among the Former Prophets were included the books of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings. The Latter Prophets were Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and The Twelve.

    The Hagiographa, or Writings, was a mixed collection that included the Psalms and other documents in common use. The Jews had a difficult time with the Hagiographa, because the fluidity of the 'canon' complicated their efforts to standardize the authoritative Scriptures.

    The Samaritan canon consisted of the Torah, without either prophetic or hagiographic scriptures. The Samaritan Torah differed from the Jewish version in several places.

    When the Roman army leveled the Temple, in 70 A.D., Jewish religious practice was upended. Their system of sacrificial ritual ended with the destruction of the Temple. From then on, Judaism would have to rest on the Scriptures. And this presented yet another issue. If the Scriptures were to be the rule of faith for Jews, then it was absolutely essential that the authoritative writings be identified. In 90 A.D. Jewish leaders met in Jamnia to identify and fix the Jewish canon. It was commonly believed that Ezra's time marked the end of divine inspiration, so there was no reason to not close the canon. There was a lot of questionable religious material in circulation during that time. The Jewish religious leaders were concerned that less informed Jews might use some of this questionable material or, worse yet, begin to use the Christian writings in matters of faith. They also were concerned to keep the authoritative texts free of scribal error, and it would first be necessary to establish an official canon in order that it be preserved.

    "The principles guiding the rabbis in the selection of sacred books have not come down to us in any clear-cut delineation but appear to have included the following:

    "1.The writing had to be composed in Hebrew. The only exceptions, which were written in Aramaic, were Daniel 2-7, writings attributed to Ezra (Ezra 4:8-6:18; 7:12-26), who was recognized as the founding father of post-Exilic Judaism, and Jer. 10:11. Hebrew was the language of Sacred Scripture, Aramaic the language of common speech.

    "2.The writing had to be sanctioned by usage in the Jewish community. The use of Esther at Purim made it possible for it to be included in the canon. Judith, without such support, was not acceptable.

    "3.The writings had to contain one of the great religious themes of Judaism, such as election, or the covenant. By reclassifying the Song of Songs as an allegory, it was possible to see in this book an expression of covenantal love.

    "4.The writing had to be composed before the time of Ezra, for it was popularly believed that inspiration had ceased then. Jonah was accepted because it used the name of an early prophet and dealt with events before the destruction of Nineveh, which occurred in 612. Daniel, a pseudonymous writing, had its setting in the Exile and therefore was accepted as an Exilic document." (Gerald A. Larue, "Old Testament Life and Literature", Allyn And Bacon (1968, 1997), electronic version © 1997 by Internet Infidels).

    Josephus, the 1st Century Jewish historian so often cited by Romish apologists, was quite explicit that the Hebrew canon included 22 books, none of which were apocryphal (Wm. Whiston, Trans., "Josephus," (Grand Rapids, Kregel, 1960), "Against Apion" 1.8, p. 609)

    There are those who would argue that the Septuagent did include the Apocrypha and suggest there were actually two Hebrew canons: a Palestinian one without the Apocrypha and an Alexandrian one which did include them. This is inappropriate, however, for there is no Alexandrian canon. The Jews of Alexandria never officially canonized the LXX. Catholics like to use the term when referring to the Jewish canon, or Tanakh, in combination with the Apocrypha.

    And what support is there for the claim the original Septuagent, which was translated some six centuries before the copies now on hand, did not include the Apocrypha? Well, for one thing, Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria (where the Septuagent was translated), did not include the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament canon. In a letter, Athanasius listed the 22 Old Testament books and the 27 canonical books of the New Testament. He added:

    "These are the fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these ALONE (my emphasis) is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. IV, St. Athanasius, "Letter 39.6" (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1953), p. 552)

    Cyril of Jerusalem (b. ca. 315 A.D.) was so respected by his bishop, 'Saint' Maximus that he was given charge of the instruction of catechumens. Cyril catalogued the canonical Old Testament books. His list did not include the Apocrypha. (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Vol VII, Cyril of Jerusalem, "Catechetical Lectures" IV.33-36 (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1952), pp. 26-28)

    The earliest list of the Old Testament canon that we have from a Christian writer was provided by Melito of Sardis, who died about 180 A.D. Melito, whose writings are preserved by Eusebius, went to Palestine to see for himself exactly how many books were in the Hebrew canon. He lists 22 books, which concurs with the number given by Josephus. (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. I, Eusebius, "Church History" IV.26.13-14 (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1952), p. 206)

    Origen also lists 22 books, none of which are apocryphal, in the Hebrew canon. (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. I, Eusebius, "Church History" VI.25.1-2 (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1952), p. 272)

    Others of the Early Church Fathers who agreed with Josephus and Origen as to the composition of the 22-book Hebrew canon, omitting the Apocrypha were: Epiphanius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzen and Hilary of Poitiers.

    But Rome tells us the Apocrypha are canonical, this was 'infallibly' declared by the Council of Trent. What did some of those Early Church Fathers the RCC so loves to refer to have to say about these books?

    Athanasius clearly declared the canonical Scriptures alone were to be used for determining doctrine, while the apocrypha were sanctioned for reading only, but were not considered part of the canon. (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. IV, St. Athanasius, "Letter 39.7" (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1953), p. 552)

    Jerome certainly agreed with Athanasius, for he did not include the Apocrypha in his Latin translations of the Old Testament because, he said, they were not part of the Hebrew canon. He admitted the Apocrypha were useful, but not authoritative for declaring or confirming doctrine. In a commentary on two apocryphal books, The Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus, Jerome wrote:

    "As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of the Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church…I say this to show you how hard it is to master the book of Daniel, which in the Hebrew contains neither the history of Susanna, nor the hymn of the three youths, nor the fables of Bel and the Dragon…" (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. VI, St. Jerome, "Prefaces to Jerome's Works, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs, Daniel" (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1954), pp. 492-93)

    One of the modern definitions of apocrypha is: "Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity." An apocryphal story is one that probably never happened. Consequently, a lot of folks seem to believe books known as the Apocrypha are mythical works. This is another example of the need to examine ancient writings in the context in which they were written and read. Originally, apocrypha meant "hidden away"; Jews considered the books of the Apocrypha to be hidden because they were not included in the Bible. When the rabbis established the Jewish canon, they excluded all works written after the age of Ezra (5th Century B.C.). One common thread uniting all the books of the Apocrypha is that they were written after Ezra's time.

    These days, not many Jews read the Apocrypha. When the rabbis of the Talmud placed the Apocrypha outside the biblical canon, they essentially declared them of little religious significance and relegated them to the status of curiosities.

    "Unlike the books of the Old Testament, which are in Hebrew, with some portions in Aramaic, the apocryphal productions are in Greek ... The Jewish Church considered them uninspired, and some of their writers disclaim inspiration, (prologue to Ecclesiasticus; 11 Macc.2:23; 15:38). The Apocrypha and Pseudopigrapha were produced between about 250 B.C. and somewhere in the early Christian centuries. They are not found in the Hebrew canon: they are never quoted by Jesus; and it cannot with certainty be affirmed that the apostles ever directly allude to them ..." (Davis, John D. and Henry Snyder Gehman: The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible; Philadelphia: Westminster Press (1944), p. 33)

    In the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the bishops met at Trent supported their inclusion of the Apocrypha in the Catholic canon by recalling that the regional councils in Hippo and Carthage had included these books in their canons. I stated that the endorsements of these councils was not what the RCC claims. Cardinal Cajetan, in commenting on the final chapter of Esther, wrote:

    "Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecciesiasticus, as is plain from the Protogus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage." (Cardinal Cajetan, "Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament," cited by William Whitaker in "A Disputation on Holy Scripture," Cambridge:parker Society (1849), p. 424)

    What is Cajetan telling us? Quite simply, he is agreeing with Jerome that the word 'canon' was understood to have two distinct meanings. The inspired writings, authoritative for establishing doctrine were ascribed proto-canonical status. The apocrypha and ecclesiastical books, though not authoritative for setting doctrine, had value for edification and were assigned a deutero-canonical status. This is how the RCC historically understood Augustine and the Council of Carthage.

    I find it interesting that Jerome and Origen, the only two Early Church Fathers considered to have been true Bible scholars and both of whom lived for a time in Palestine and were familiar with the Jewish canon, rejected the Apocrypha. Yet, in 1546, the Catholic Council of Trent went against both Catholic tradition and church practice by declaring the Apocrypha to be part of the Canon.

    Why is the Roman church so set on making and keeping the Apocrypha part of the Canon of Scripture?

    Could it be because so many of Rome's innovative doctrines can only be supported by appealing to the uninspired books of the Apocrypha?

    The Roman church points to a passage in 2 Maccabees to validate the doctrine of Purgatory and justify heretical prayers to and for the dead:

    "So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place. And the day following Judas cam with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats o the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth the Jews: 90 that all plainly saw, for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. IT IS THEREFORE A HOLY AND WHOLESOME THOUGHT TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD, THAT THEY MAY BE LOOSED FROM SIN. (2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Douay-Rheims Bible, emphasis not in original)

    The RCC's Semi-Pelagian doctrine of salvation by works is supported by two passages from the Apocrypha:

    "Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin." (Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Ronald Knox translation)

    "It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin." Tobit 12:8-9, 17, Ronald Knox translation)

    A verse in the Apocrypha can be stretched to support the RCC's heretical doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary:

    "And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled." (Wisdom 8:19,20, Douay-Rheims Bible)

    A while back, I posted an account of a "magical" method for selling a house fast as provided by Mother Angelica. Well, the Apocrypha provide other spells and incantaions, among them:
  4. Part 2

    "If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore." (Tobit 6:5-8. Ronald Knox translation)

    Let's see now. The Palastinian Jews never accepted the Apocrypha as inspired. Nor did the Samaritans. The Jews in Alexandria never officially accepted the LXX as canonical. The leading fathers of the Greek Church did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired writings. Principle lights among the Early Church Fathers rejected the idea of the inspiration of the Apocrypha.

    "Rufinus, Jerome, Anastasius, Leontius, Gregory the Great, and John of Damascus all wrote after the provincial Councils of Carthage and Hippo under Augustine. Therefore, to say that these councils somehow authoritatively established the canon of Scripture is not true. John Cosin, in his work The Scholastical History of the Canon, cites fifty-two major ecclesiastical writers from the eighth to the sixteenth centuries who affirmed the view of Jerome. " (William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," Banner of Truth Trust:Carlisle/Edinburgh (1995), p. 11)

    Nevertheless, the Council of Trent declared the Apocrypha to be canonical, and this was later reaffirmed by Vatican I. The bishops of the Roman Catholic church accorded to the amorphous collection of apocryphal books what the books themselves do not claim: divine inspiration. The Maccabean author says something quite different, as a matter of fact:

    "...all such things as have been comprised in 5 books by Jason of Cyrene, we have attempted to abridge in one book. For considering the difficulty that they find that desire to undertake the narrations of histories, because of the multitude of the matter, we have taken care for those indeed that are willing to read, and as to ourselves indeed, in undertaking this work of abridging, we have taken in hand no easy task, yea. rather a business full of watching and sweat. Leaving to the authors the exact handling of every particular, and as for ourselves, according to the plan proposed, studying to brief... For to collect all that is known, to put the discourse in order, and curiously to discuss every particular point, is the duty of the author of a history. But to pursue brevity of speech and to avoid nice declarations of things, is to be granted to him that maketh an abridgement." (2 Maccabees 2: 24-32).

    "...I will also here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired; but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me. For as it is hurtful to drink always wine, or always water, but pleasant to use sometimes the one, and sometimes the other, so if the speech be always nicely framed, it will not be grateful to the readers..." 2 Maccabees 15: 38-40).

    And what do the inspired books say?

    "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel." (Joel 1:1)

    "Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak. but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matthew 10: 19-20).

    "Now we have received. not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God: that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth" (1 Corinthians 2: 12-131)

    Who are YOU going to believe: A self-serving Magisterium that denied more than 1200 years of the teachings, practices and beliefs of it's predecessors? Or God Himself?

    To me, that is a no-brainer.

    Public domain. No rights reserved. May be distributed freely.
    From Jesus is Lord.
  5. Heh Dan, I have had enough of this subject for now. It is been a pleasure taking to you.

    Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
  6. where is the acceptence?

    Dear Chad,
    I heard a lot from the academics of what you believe and I am personally proud of you. May I take a second of your time and ask where is Gods position of his grace for an individual? God has to appeal to an individual to be saved! It is not of works lest any man should boast. I am no example Chad you are the greatest because of the great understanding you posses . Gods open door of his deliverance is open to all who repent period. I say this out of humility because I know you preach this already! May God bless you!
  7. How do you explain the express delineation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19?

  8. Mary is gone forever! When she died , that is her flesh! It went back to the earth it came from! !Any prayers to her are useless!

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    Nothing is left of the old us ! Once our bodies die! We are indeed NEW CREATURES 100!

    Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

    few understand salvation! one reason is we love these bodies?

    they are part of the earth , made from the dust of this planet!
    The planet is dying because of being defiled by sin!
    our bodies are dying because of being defiled by sin!
    We [the spirit born of GOD] NEVER DIE because of no sin!
    GOD makes us a brand NEW BEING at Salvation! A heavenly being! But still dwelling in a earthly body!

    1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly

    You see !WE are living here on earth NOW though our inner man! That is the Only part that has SALVATION!
    Because the NEW CREATURE HE makes us is PERFECT , without Sin1
    The flesh part is a sinner !WE are NOT!

    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

  9. Roman Catholic and Orthodox Faith Examined The Apocrypha

    "The Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Bible, was universally received, while the Apocrypha added to the Greek version of the Septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading, and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal (pseudonymous) writings. And justly; for those books, while they have great historical value, and fill the gap between the Old Testament and the New, all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles" (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, book 3, chapter 9)

    21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:
    1. The Roman Catholic Church did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as purgatory, praying for the dead, and the treasury of merit.
    2. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
    3. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
    4. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
    5. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.
    6. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.
    7. The Apocrypha inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
      And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchers of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46) ​
    8. The apocrypha contains offensive materials unbecoming of God’s authorship.
      Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity. ​
      Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die. ​
      Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss. ​
    9. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.
    10. The apocryphal books themselves make reference to what we call the Silent 400 years, where there was no prophets of God to write inspired materials.
      And they laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, till there should come a prophet, and give answer concerning them. (1 Maccabees 4:46)​
      And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel. (1 Maccabees 9:27)​
      And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet. (1 Maccabees 14:41) ​
    11. Josephus rejected the apocryphal books as inspired and this reflected Jewish thought at the time of Jesus
      "From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets." ... "We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine..."(Flavius Josephus, Against Apion 1:8) ​
    12. The Manual of Discipline in the Dead Sea Scrolls rejected the apocrypha as inspired.
    13. The Council of Jamnia held the same view rejected the apocrypha as inspired.
      They debated the canonicity of a few books (e.g., Ecclesiastes), but they changed nothing and never proclaimed themselves to be authoritative determiners of the Old Testament canon. "The books which they decided to acknowledge as canonical were already generally accepted, although questions had been raised about them. Those which they refused to admit had never been included. They did not expel from the canon any book which had previously been admitted. 'The Council of Jamnia was the confirming of public opinion, not the forming of it.'" (F. F. Bruce, The Books and Parchments [Old Tappan, NJ.: Fleming H. Revell, 1963], p. 98]) ​
    14. Although it was occasionally quoted in early church writings, it was nowhere accepted in a canon. Melito (AD 170) and Origen rejected the Apocrypha, (Eccl. Hist. VI. 25, Eusebius) as does the Muratorian Canon.
    15. Jerome vigorously resisted including the Apocrypha in his Latin Vulgate Version (400 AD), but was overruled. As a result, the standard Roman Catholic Bible throughout the medieval period contained it. Thus, it gradually came to be revered by the average clergyman. Still, many medieval Catholic scholars realized that it was not inspired.
    16. The terms "protocanonical" and "deuterocanonical" are used by Catholics to signify respectively those books of Scripture that were received by the entire Church from the beginning as inspired, and those whose inspiration came to be recognized later, after the matter had been disputed by certain Fathers and local churches.
    17. Pope Damasus (366-384) authorized Jerome to translate the Latin Vulgate. The Council of Carthage declared this translation as "the infallible and authentic Bible." Jerome was the first to describe the extra 7 Old Testament books as the "Apocrypha" (doubtful authenticity). Needless to say, Jerome’s Latin Vulgate did not include the Apocrypha.
    18. Cyril (born about A.D. 315) – "Read the divine Scriptures – namely, the 22 books of the Old Testament which the 72 interpreters translated" (the Septuagint)
    19. The apocrypha wasn’t included at first in the Septuagint, but was appended by the Alexandrian Jews, and was not listed in any of the catalogues of the inspired books till the 4th century
    20. Hilary (bishop of Poictiers, 350 A.D.) rejected the apocrypha (Prologue to the Psalms, Sec. 15)
    21. Epiphanius (the great opposer of heresy, 360 A.D.) rejected them all. Referring to Wisdom of Solomon & book of Jesus Sirach, he said "These indeed are useful books & profitable, but they are not placed in the number of the canonical."
    Is the Apocrypha Inspired? Does it really belong in the Bible?
    Let us consider while we are at this point, the subject of the Catholic apocrypha, for which they make such great claims; and because of which they deny the Bible in common use by most brethren. 2 Macc 12:38-46 seems to be the principal reason they cling to the apocrypha. There is no other doctrine that depends so heavily upon support in the apocrypha. If I were not afraid of absolute statements, I would say that their defense of the apocrypha is only because of the passage and their claims about its teachings.
    The Catholics have 46 Old Testament books rather than the 39 found in our Bibles. However, they have added much more material to other books which does not appear under separate titles. That material follows: The Rest of Esther added to Esther; The Song of the Three Holy Children, The History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon added to Daniel; Baruch; 1 and 2 Maccabees; Tobias; Judith; Ecclesiasticus; and the Wisdom of Sirach.
    The only powerful support for these books is that they appear in the Septuagint version. However, in many of our Bibles there is much material that is uninspired, including history, poetry, maps, dictionaries, and other information. This may be the reason for the appearance of this material in the Septuagint. The apocrypha was not in the Hebrew canon.
    There are reputed to be 263 quotations and 370 allusions to the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them refers to the Apocryphal
    The usual division of the Old Testament by the Jews was a total of 24 books: The Books of Moses (51, The Early prophets 14; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings ~, The Late Prophets (4; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the 12 Minor Prophets), and the Hagiagrapha (11; Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon. Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles i. These 24 books contain all the material in our numbering of 39.
    Josephus spoke concerning the canon, but his book division combined Ruth-Judges and Lamentation-Jeremiah for a total of 22 books rather than 24:
    "For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, ... only 22 books. which contain the records of ail the past times; which are justly believed to be divine;...It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers;...and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add anything to them, or to make any change in them." (Flavius Josephus Against Apion Book 1, Section 8).
    Plainly Josephus distinguishes between those books written before and after Artaxerxes. This eliminates most of the apocrypha, especially the Maccabees.
    The apocrypha itself denies all notion of inspiration. Referring to the events in the Maccabees the author makes these statements:
    "...all such things as have been comprised in 5 books by Jason of Cyrene, we have at-tempted to abridge in one book. For considering the difficulty that they find that desire to undertake the narrations of histories, because of the multitude of the matter, we have taken care for those indeed that are willing to read,...And as to ourselves indeed, in undertaking this work of abridging, we have taken in hand no easy task, yea. rather a business full of watching and sweat. .. Leaving to the authors the exact handling of every particular, and as for ourselves. according to the plan proposed, studying to brief... For to collect all that is known, to put the discourse in order, and curiously to discuss every particular point, is the duty of the author of a history. But to pursue brevity of speech and to avoid nice declarations of things, is to be granted to him that maketh an abridgement." (2 Maccabees 2: 24-32).
    "...I will also here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired; but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me. For as it is hurtful to drink always wine, or always water, but pleasant to use sometimes the one, and sometimes the other, so if the speech be always nicely framed, it will not be grateful to the readers..." 12 Maccabees 15: 39-40).
    This forms a bizarre contrast with passages in the New Testament:
    "Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak. but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matthew 10: 19-20).
    "Now we have received. not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God: that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth" (1 Corinthians 2: 12-131.
  10. what you mean the trinity is not in the bible?

    <CENTER>The Biblical Basis of the
    Doctrine of the Trinity:
    An Outline Study


    <CENTER>By Robert M. Bowman, Jr.

    It is often alleged that the doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine. While the word Trinity is not in the Bible, the substance of the doctrine is definitely biblical.
    The following outline study presents an overview of the biblical basis of the doctrine of the Trinity. Comments on the texts have been kept to a bare minimum; the emphasis is on the many biblical texts themselves (about 700 references are listed, including references from 26 of the 27 books of the New Testament).
    An exposition of many of the texts discussed here can be found in the author's book Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1989). Unfortunately, it is currently out of print, but you may be able to locate a copy through's out-of-print service.
    Aproper evaluation of the biblical evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity will depend on the faithful application of sound principles of biblical interpretation. Here I will mention just two principles which, if followed, would prevent almost all interpretive errors on this subject.
    The first is to interpret the implicit in light of the explicit. That is, texts that explicitly state that such-and-such is true are to govern our understanding of passages that do not address the issue directly. For example, many passages of the Bible state explicitly that God is omniscient, that is, that he knows all things, including the thoughts of men and all future events (1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9, 17; Job 37:16; Psa. 139:1-4; Isa. 41:22-23; 42:9; 44:7; Jer. 17:10a). These texts must govern our understanding of passages which might seem to imply, but which do not assert, that God did not know something (e.g., Gen. 3:9-13; 4:9; 18:9, 20-21).
    The other principle is that we interpret logically but not rationalistically. Using the same illustration, if God knows everything ahead of time, then logically He must have known that Adam and Eve would fall into sin. However, to argue that if God knew Adam and Eve would sin then they would not be responsible for their choosing to sin is not "logical," is rationalistic. It may be difficult to understand how persons could be responsible for their sinful actions if God knew ahead of time that they would sin, but it is not illogical (not self-contradictory) to say so.
    It should be noted that a study of the Trinity should not be undertaken apart from a study of the nature of God.
    I. There Is One God
    A. One God: Explicit Statements
    1. OT: Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9
    2. NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25
    B. None like God (in his essence)
    1. Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 25: 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
    2. Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
    3. Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
    C. Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
    D. All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20
    E. Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8
    F. How human beings are meant to be "like God"
    1. The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share his moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
    2. The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
    a. Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
    b. Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
    3. Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," see 1 Cor. 10:18, 20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1
    G. Are mighty or exalted men gods?
    1. Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
    2. Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
    3. Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
    4. Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
    5. Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 9
    6. The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 28; compare Deut. 19:17
    7. The use of elohim in Psalm 82, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.
    a. It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.
    b. Asaph's meaning is not "Although you are gods, you will die like men," but rather "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are"
    c. The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (v. 6b)
    d. Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5 above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. 1-2, 7-8)
    e. Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82
    f. The words, "The Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 45 for a similar use of OT Scripture)
    g. The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all
    h. Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal
    8. Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1
    H. Are angels gods?
    1. Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
    2. Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods
    3. Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4
    4. Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
    a. Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 8 16, 26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
    b. Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels.
    5. Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods (or as "sons of the gods"), are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9 (note that these false gods are called "angels" in the Septuagint); 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5.
    6. Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshipped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13.
    I. Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.
    II. This One God Is Known in the OT as "Jehovah/Yahweh" ("The Lord")
    A. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39; Psa. 100:3; etc.
    B. Texts where the compound name "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:3; 9:26; 24:3; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:4; 2 Sam. 7:22, 25; etc.
    C. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
    D. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
    III. God Is a Unique, Incomprehensible Being
    A. Only one God, thus unique: See I.A.
    B. None are even like God: see I.B.
    C. God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3
    D. God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
    E. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
    F. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
    1. Separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24
    2. Contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
    3. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3
    IV. Is God One Person?
    A. God is one God (cf. I above), one Yahweh, one Lord (cf. II above), one Spirit (John 4:24)
    B. However, the Bible never says that God is "one person"
    1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God's "person," but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated "substance" in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 "God" refers specifically to the Father
    2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person
    3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God's "person," but ironically the Hebrew literally means "his faces"
    C. The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
    1. Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three "persons" as long as these persons are not separate beings
    2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for these occurrences.
    a. A plural reference to God and the angels is possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the Genesis texts: in 1:26 "our image" is explained in 1:27, "in God's image"; in 3:22 "like one of us" refers back to 3:5, "like God."
    b. The "literary plural" (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
    c. The "plural of deliberation" (as in "Let's see now...") is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Gen. 3:22 ("like one of us").
    d. The "plural of amplitude" or of "fullness" (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of "God") is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22.
    e. The "plural of majesty" is possibly attested in 1 Kgs. 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these are certain; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22; also nothing in the context of the Genesis texts suggests that God is being presented particularly as King.
    D. The uniqueness of God (cf. III above) should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
    V. The Father of Jesus Christ Is God
    A. Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.
    B. The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3
    VI. Jesus Christ Is God
    A. Explicit statements
    1. Isa. 9:6; note 10:21. Translations which render "mighty hero," are inconsistent in their rendering of 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5. above.
    2. John 1:1 Even if Jesus is here called "a god" (as some have argued), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the "a god" rendering is incorrect. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos ("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1:21; 1 Thess. 1:9; heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11
    3. John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenês, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in the context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."
    4. John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas' acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in v. 17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).
    5. Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g. "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.
    6. Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.
    7. Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2. Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 8.
    8. Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense - God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also, "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler - but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.
    9. 2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passages in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18.
    10. 1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from 1:2.
    B. Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
    1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of 10:13 must be the "Lord" of 10:9, 12.
    2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah.
    3. Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
    4. 1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in v. 3 is Jesus.
    5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
    6. Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
    C. Jesus has the titles of God
    1. Titles belonging only to God
    a. The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
    b. King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
    2. Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God
    a. Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. v. 10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43.11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 21
    b. Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
    c. Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8
    D. Jesus received the honors due to God alone
    1. Honor: John 5:23
    2. Love: Matt. 10:37
    3. Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. v. 9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.
    4. Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
    5. Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13
    6. Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13
    7. Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.
    E. Jesus does the works of God
    1. Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archê probably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
    2. Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 11-12
    3. Salvation:
    a. In General: See C.2.a. above
    b. Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
    4. All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)
    F. Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
    1. All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
    2. Self-existent: John 5:26
    3. Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); 13:8
    4. Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
    5. Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11
    6. Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. 2:23-24
    7. Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27
    G. Jesus is "equal with God"
    1. John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In v. 17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
    2. Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (vv. 7-11)
    H. Jesus is the Son of God
    1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
    2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
    3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
    4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
    5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
    6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
    7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
    I. Objections
    1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. 8:12-21; 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
    2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-44); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that v. 16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).
    3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
    4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.
    5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).
    6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
    7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.
    8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.
    9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
    10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.
    11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.
    12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
    13. Deut. 4:12, 15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
    14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.
    VII. The Holy Spirit Is God
    A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
    B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
    1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
    2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
    3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
    C. Involved in all the works of God
    1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
    2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
    3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
    4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
    D. Is a person
    1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
    2. Is the "Helper"
    a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
    b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
    c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
    d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
    3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
    4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.
    5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
    6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
    7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
    8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons
    a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
    b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
    c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10
  11. <CENTER>VIII. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons</CENTER>
    A. Matt. 28:19
    1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26
    2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
    3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16
    4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."
    B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19
    1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."
    2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:
    a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16
    b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16
    c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48
    d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
    e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13
    3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God
    C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons
    1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
    2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
    3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
    4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
    5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
    6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
    7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1
    D. Jesus is not God the Father
    1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
    2. John 10:30
    a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
    b. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
    c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).
    3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
    4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
    5. John 14:6-11
    a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
    b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
    c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.
    6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
    7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
    8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father
    E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation
    1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
    2. The Son created all things: Col 1, John 1:2
    3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
    4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34
    5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
    6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
    7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20
    8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge
    a. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
    b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
    c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.
    9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).
    F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
    1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
    2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
    3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
    4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
    5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
    6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
    a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
    b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
    c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
    d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
    e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
    G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
    1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
    2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
    3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
    4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
    a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
    b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.
    IX. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity
    A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.
    1. One God
    2. The Father is God.
    3. The Son is God.
    4. The Holy Spirit is God.
    5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).
    B. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29.
    C. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.
    X. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?
    A. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
    B. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
    C. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
    D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
    E. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
    F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
    G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
    H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
    I. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
    J. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 17; 15:26; 16:13.

  12. simply put those who are "dead" can not hear you

    Ecclesiastes 9:6
    Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    1 John 1:5
    This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Revelation 21:23
    And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Revelation 22:5
    And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
  13. The Catholic Church is the one, true Church. It was and is the original Church. It is the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter, the Rock:

    (Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    The Catholic Church clearly follows scripture in teaching that we are saved through a combination of faith and works:

    (James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

    (Matthew 5:20 DRB) For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    (Matthew 7:21 DRB) Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    (Matthew 10:22 DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

    (Matthew 10:32 DRB) Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.

    (Matthew 10:38 DRB) And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

    (Matthew 10:42 DRB) And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you he shall not lose his reward.

    (Matthew 12:37 DRB) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    (Matthew 16:27 DRB) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

    (Matthew 18:3 DRB) And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    (Matthew 19:20 DRB) The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
    (Matthew 19:21 DRB) Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

    (Matthew 21:43 DRB) Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

    (Matthew 24:13 DRB) But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

    (Mark 9:36 DRB) And taking a child, he set him in the midst of them. Whom when he had embraced, he saith to them:
    (Mark 9:37 DRB) Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name receiveth me. And whosoever shall receive me receiveth not me but him that sent me.

    (Mark 10:15 DRB) Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it.

    (Mark 10:17 DRB) And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man, running up and kneeling before him, asked him: Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting?
    (Mark 10:18 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.
    (Mark 10:19 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, bear not false witness, do no fraud, honour thy father and mother.
    (Mark 10:20 DRB) But he answering, said to him: Master, all these things I have observed from my youth.
    (Mark 10:21 DRB) And Jesus, looking on him, loved him and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee. Go, sell whatsoever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

    (Mark 10:29 DRB) Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
    (Mark 10:30 DRB) Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

    (Luke 6:22 DRB) Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you and shall reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
    (Luke 6:23 DRB) Be glad in that day and rejoice: for behold, your reward is great in heaven, For according to these things did their fathers to the prophets.

    (Luke 6:46 DRB) And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

    (Luke 18:18 DRB) And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life?
    (Luke 18:19 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.
    (Luke 18:20 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.
    (Luke 18:21 DRB) Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth.
    (Luke 18:22 DRB) Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

    (John 8:51 DRB) Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

    (Romans 11:22 DRB) See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    (2 Timothy 2:11 DRB) A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
    (2 Timothy 2:12 DRB) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
    (2 Timothy 2:13 DRB) If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

    (Philippians 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

    Sola Scriptura is false as is proven by the following verse in scripture:

    (2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

    Also Protestants, how do you explain the following 10 passages from scripture?

    (Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    (Matthew 16:19 DRB) And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

    (1 Timothy 3:15 DRB) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    (2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

    (1 Peter 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    (John 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

    (John 6:53 DRB) (6:54) Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

    (John 6:54 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
    (John 6:55 DRB) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
    (John 6:56 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
    (John 6:57 DRB) As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
    (John 6:58 DRB) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
    (John 6:66 DRB) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
    (John 6:67 DRB) Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

    (1 Corinthians 11:27 DRB) Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

    (James 5:14 DRB) Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
    (James 5:15 DRB) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    (Colossians 1:24 DRB) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

    (James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

    God Bless,

  14. This post was an AWESOME POST !!!!!

    thank you.

  15. #235 ChildrenOfLight, Dec 10, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2009

    the new testament tends to say something like faith/love/charity without works is worthless and works without faith/love is worthless or vanity.

    i can't pinpoint the verses, but let the reader understand.

    i believe in the bible, and i don't label myself anything other than a believer of the truth, the way, and the life. i think in acts the greeks called them christians, but the apostles never called themselves christians, i dont think. so there isn't really a true label other than a believer of the way imo.

    i believe that merely believing on Jesus Christ, son of God, raised from the dead, might get me into heaven, but it does in fact require some good works through faith

  16. It seems that you are bashing the Catholic faith....and the vibe I am feeling is that catholics are not welcome here. I am catholic and what you quoted/posted is not entirely true and it is offensive. It sounds very much like you are judging both catholics and their faith.

    I have attended many non-denominational bible studies and we are all there for three spend time with Jesus, to read, learn, pray and share about scripture and to fellowship with other christians. I have many friends who belong to protestant faiths and we do not attack one anothers beliefs.

    and if I may.....catholics "dont" worship Mary or saints. That statement is untrue. They are intercessories. Jesus provided us with helpers because he couldnt be everywhere. It is clear that you dont understand that concept. Transubstantiation....what is the misunderstanding with that? We are told by Jesus during the last supper to eat of His body and drink his blood...and if we do that, then He will remain in us and we shall remain in Him. The bread and wine is transformed at every mass during communion for that exact purpose.

  17. great verses...nicely stated....I just posted in regards to this forum but I am awaiting approval...let's see if it gets put up.

    (John 6:56 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. This is right from the bible people
  18. Welcome Holly, I lovingly disagree. I am a trained Historian from Madonna Univeristy. But, for the sake of discussion please explain exactly phrase by phrase what you see these verses teaching in the flow of the Books of Ephesians 2:8-10, and in Hebrews 12:2

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    By "flow of the books" think of a book and chapter outline.

    God Bless
  19. putting my two cents worth in

    Holly, i must disagree with you based on your usage of the term 'Catholic'. rather your mis-usage of the name. the fact is that the term catholic was used by the early church fathers but never implied the sect of christianity that is the Catholic church. there was a time when the church was catholic that is to say universal but the Catholic church has very specific origins. there was a time when there were no popes, no priesthood (as practiced by the Catholic church), and no Apostolic See. there was only the one body called to be a kingdom of priests to the Lord their God. the church is catholic and the Catholic church is a part of it:wink:

    be blessed
  20. Wow, I beg to differ who understands or does not understand the "concept"

    What is obviously clear by your statement is that you don't understand who Jesus is at all.

    Psalm 139

    For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
    1 O Lord, you have searched me ​
    and you know me. ​
    2 You know when I sit and when I rise; ​
    you perceive my thoughts from afar. ​
    3 You discern my going out and my lying down; ​
    you are familiar with all my ways. ​
    4 Before a word is on my tongue ​
    you know it completely, O Lord.

    5 You hem me in—behind and before; ​
    you have laid your hand upon me. ​
    6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, ​
    too lofty for me to attain. ​
    7 Where can I go from your Spirit? ​
    Where can I flee from your presence? ​
    8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; ​
    if I make my bed in the depths,a you are there.

    9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
    if I settle on the far side of the sea, ​
    10 even there your hand will guide me, ​
    your right hand will hold me fast. ​
    11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me ​
    and the light become night around me,” ​
    12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; ​
    the night will shine like the day, ​
    for darkness is as light to you.

    13 For you created my inmost being; ​
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb. ​
    14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; ​
    your works are wonderful, ​
    I know that full well. ​
    15 My frame was not hidden from you ​
    when I was made in the secret place. ​
    When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, ​
    16 your eyes saw my unformed body. ​
    All the days ordained for me ​
    were written in your book ​
    before one of them came to be.

    17 How precious tob me are your thoughts, O God! ​
    How vast is the sum of them! ​
    18 Were I to count them, ​
    they would outnumber the grains of sand. ​
    When I awake, ​
    I am still with you. ​
    19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God! ​
    Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! ​
    20 They speak of you with evil intent; ​
    your adversaries misuse your name.

    21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord, ​
    and abhor those who rise up against you? ​
    22 I have nothing but hatred for them; ​
    I count them my enemies. ​
    23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; ​
    test me and know my anxious thoughts. ​
    24 See if there is any offensive way in me, ​
    and lead me in the way everlasting. ​

    Below portion taken from


    God is Omnipresent
    The attribute of God by which He fills the universe in all its parts and is present everywhere at once. Not a part, but the whole of God is present in every place. This is true of all three members of the Trinity. They are so closely related that where one is the others can be said to be, also.
    Therefore, when man is sinning God is there. If a child is doing something a parent has told him not to do, God is there. There is no place man can go to hide from God.
    Scripture Support:
    Psalm 139:8
    If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Jeremiah 23:23,24
    Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

    Ephesians 2:22
    In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Psalm 113:5
    Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.

    Psalm 123:1
    Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

    I Kings 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Matthew 6:9
    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Hebrews 1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    I Corinthians 1:27
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

    Matthew 18:20
    For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    Romans 10:6,7
    But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep?

    Romans 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    There is no place to go where God is not already there.

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