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Can you be both Liberal and Christian?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:20)

Do you think it's possible to be a true born again Christian with Liberal views and ideologies?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 36.6%
  • No

    Votes: 26 63.4%

  • Total voters
    41
Active
Hi Sue, Just wondered how you think Trump is "Draining the Swamp", because it seems to me that hes filled positions within his Government with Business insiders and Political cronies that typify a Corruption rarely seen before,....... and i've noticed Illegal Immigration mentioned a few times here, just wondered how that fitted in with Loving thy Neighbour and welcoming the stranger, whether "illegal" or not, , ...... and just where do you consider Trump's "trying to do right", in his promotion of Nationalism, MAGA, in his Racism and Anti Immigration rhetoric and actions, Build that wall and the Muslim Ban to name just a couple, and Trumps pro Rich and big Business stance and his cuts to welfare and other benefits surely puts him at odds with Christs preference for the poor and oppressed, and what about his unashamedly pro Gun, pro NRA positon , how does that reconcile with Christs teachings of Pacifism and tolerance, and his utter contempt for Environmental safeguards and pro BigOil, Gas and Coal stance will probably be the final nail in the coffin as regards climate change condemning countless millions to further poverty and suffering as increased droughts, famines, storms and floods ravage the earth,...... im making your choice for Trump ,what was it about Clinton's evil that you consider outweighs Trumps,
Hey Rad, im not trying to harp on you, so please no offence. Just the other day there was an article on China and thier aid to smaller countries. This aid came by way of building coal burning plants. These not the American air regulated oneswhich have 0 emissions, but the old style with tons of carbon emissions. In the artical it stated China was to build over 200 of them this year.
 
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Staff Member
Hey Rad, im not trying to harp on you, so please no offence. Just the other day there was an article on China and thier aid to smaller countries. This aid came by way of building coal burning plants. These not the American air regulated oneswhich have 0 emissions, but the old style with tons of carbon emissions. In the artical it stated China was to build over 200 of them this year.
China is a communist country that steals IT technology and persecutes Christians and couldn't care for the environment. That's what it seems clearly based on world news and the stories from persecuted Christians.
 
Member

Rad

As for climate change, why does no one ever consider science. Volcanic activity or the effects of the sun . There is more polutants in 5 volcanos than all of what mankind creates. And volcanic activity is at an all time high. 40 plus, yearly. Sun spot activity is also at an all time high, affecting the stratosphere, . Yet never are these things mentioned by pro earth movement ppl. Im just curious why not
Hi Bill, i do try to consider science, i'm no climate scientist myself , but when the Top Climate Scientists in the World almost unanimously agree that the World is Warming and human activity in the form of burning of Fossil fuels is mainly to blame, when all the top scientific Bodies and the major scientific institutions such as NASA and NOAA agree, when all the Governments of the World sign the Paris Accord committing themselves to action on reducing CO2 emissions and when the UNIPCC, composed of top scientists issue warnings that we are facing a Climate Emergency and that unless we take drastic action within the next 12 years we face Environmental meltdown, when even the Major Oil and Gas Companies such as Shell, Chevron, BP , ExxonMobil and ConoccoPhillips agree in court that climate change is taking place and burning fossil fuels is the cause, why do you think differently, what do you know that they don't?.
 
Member

Rad

So -- you believe that Everyone should be able to be in our country no matter how they get here?

Have you noticed that in the Bible -- people get into heaven One way and Only one way. Everyone is Not going to get to heaven no matter how they choose to get there.

Jesus Christ died for Everyone -- but it's either His way or they are not entering.

And you have no problem with Muslims being part of our national leadership? And being sworn into office placing their hand on the Koran rather than God's Holy Word?

Jesus Christ was Not a pacifist and was Not tolerant of everything. His Word gives us very clear guidelines for ethics / morality.

Cutting welfare benefits to illegal people -- they have no business getting Any benefits -- People need to be here Legally. Support this country.

You Are aware of what Hilary Clinton would do with this country? Right?

Trump is at least Trying to make America a great country again -- but he's being thwarted at every move.

The poor and needy -- widows / children are Supposed to be cared for by the church and family NOT the government.

YES Get that wall Built.

Do you personally have doors / windows/ walls around your dwelling? Or do you have your home open to anyone who wants to walk in - help themselves to what ever they want / need and leave or stay? If they want to mess with your children or wife - you'd let them. ?!
Hi Sue, yes i don't believe in artificial man made barriers or borders, i believe we are all created by God and that to follow Christs commandment to love others as we love ourselves and treat others as we would want to be treated there is no place for Nationalism, racism or dividing and classifying people on the basis of where they live, how can you claim to love your neighbour yet criminalise, imprison and persecute those fleeing oppression, violence and poverty, if the fruits of this world were apportioned fairly then there would be no need for mass migration to escape the poverty and suffering hundreds of millions of men, women and children have to endure,...... and i have no problem with anyone who has the right values, morality and policies no matter what their professed faith, or no faith at all, assuming positions of power, and who is to say just because someone professe Christianity, they are a Christian, as Christ said, these people profess me with their Mouths, but their hearts are far from me,...... and i'm not sure about your definition of Pacifism, but when i'm commanded to turn the other cheek when struck, told not to resist Evil, to love my enemy, to do good topthose that hate me and pray for those that spitefully use me, well that seems like a pretty good call for pacifism to me,..... and when Jesus said we should feed the Hungry, clothe the naked, House the homeless, welcome the stranger and cure the sick there was no mention of Legality, the fact they were in need is sufficient reason to help,..... and just how is Trump MAGA, for it seems to me that every time he opens his mouth its to speak Self Interest, Division, hate, intolerance and Fear, how does that accord with Christs message of Love and Compassion,...... and where does it say that Widows/Children must only be cared for by the family, not the government, why do you feel its OK for the Government to spend Billions of Dollars on Weapons and means of mass carnage and destruction but not on caring for those in need, do you feel thats Christs priorities, the National Budget is a Moral Document, it reflects our values as Individuals and a Society, Guns and Bombs over Bread and Shelter, well thats not my priority and i don't see it as Christs either,...... and yes i have dorrs and windows in my house, and they are locked , perhaps thats a reflection of my own sinful nature as much as the fear and prejudice generated by the society i live in, but i hope that if i had the wealth and land that comprises the US, then i would open it to all comers and reserve perhaps just a little for my own needs, as the man said, there is sufficient in Gods world for everyones need, but not for their greed, the problem we confuse need with want, and thats brought Gods world to the state its in today.
 
Member

Rad

Dear @Sue D.
I realize that the above post was directed to you, but I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents or 2 pence for our Brother from the UK.

Hello Rad,
You're catching me on a rough day, so you might not want to read the rest.

Still one siding it I see :smile:
Now which one first.................illegal immigration...........
I just couldn't help replying to this. This one really got me to start writing. Your part about "Illegal Immigration" and Loving thy Neighbor. The operative word here is "illegal". The people coming into this country or any other country for that matter by doing so "illegally" are breaking the laws of said country. So, I hope you're not suggesting that we as Christians should break the Law of the Country we live in as a reflection of our Love of Neighbor? :smile: Quite the conundrum you would have us choose from there brother. However, in truth if we truly love our neighbor, then we would not be assisting them in breaking the law, but rather assist them by following the law or having the law changed.

Going to get worse.......

You'll find the side that you probably support, does not in honesty want to resolve this issue in any reasonable manner. Outside of creating open borders, which would make the U.S.A the first....well maybe the Antarctic, but I don't see a lot of folks seeking to invade that locale. So, as far as I know no country in the world allows for unfettered entry into their country, and that includes the UK. Want to try that beam in ones eye refrain on for size? Sorry I couldn't help it. Told you it be getting worse.....

This is why I suggest you research both sides, before critiquing, which in this case is existing law, which predates this Republican President. He's just trying to enforce the laws he inherited. Humm.....imagine that....a politician wanting to enforce the law!!! Not something I want from my leadership...I'm sure you'd abhor that too in your Prime Minister..............Oh by the way how's that Brexit thing going? People voted for it, but the existing Leadership last I've heard is trying everything they can do to scuttle the whole thing or slow it down in such a way that folks may very well believe it was only an illusion.........The English sure have started something there. Seems other EU states are looking at similar laws to be put up for a vote.............point coming.....Seems that bad, bad, bad, Nationalism thing is spreading....see Brexit......Sorry I'm not a Globalism type person. One World Government etc.

Guns!!!!!

Pro-gun a problem. Sorry, it's written into our Constitution and so I have no issue with it. If I did, then the way to go would be to pass another amendment to the Constitution. Using half-step laws to get around it, just makes it worse for everyone (i.e. research City of Chicago).

Gosh this is getting hard to do.....

Environmental issues? Agreed. However....I'm sure you knew there was a "but" coming....so I used However instead :smile: The laws that the U.S.A. enact, will have zero effect on changing the countries that make the U.S.A look like pikers and they are China & India. China, India won't be driven by what we do. Plus, have you looked at the Green Deal that was put forward by as you like to use the other "Party Line"? Think we can get the Russians to go along? Don't think so. Now please don't say it's the U.S.A that is putting the nail of the coffin called climate change. To have a Globalist with such a Nationalist point of view as far as blame is concerned is disconcerting to me :smile:

To make radical changes you need innovation, not condemnation. Government can subsidize some of the research, but unless the main focus is done by the private industries, with great incentives. It just won't happen. Socialist and Communist type Governments are not high on innovation, just status quo. Trying to shove it down the throats of people, just makes them even more angry and disappointed then they already are. Have you done that research on the other side yet? No? Sad, because you'd of found that the other extreme is no better. Hillary? Gosh in any other civilized country she'd of been convicted and would still be spending time in jail.

Now that same "Party" that I'm pointing to would throw the baby out with the bath water, as a way to fix things, but since they already want to abort up to and including the time of birth. It's no big deal for them. Think this was harsh? :crying: That Party actual had someone say yesterday that it was better off to kill them off now, since they were going to get killed later on in life. Wow!!! LET'S GO PARTY!!!!

You still not getting it are you. You might have, if you did what I suggested and did that research on the other side as honestly as you did this one. Then hold them both up against Scripture and you'd see the failings of both. Without Christ Jesus, what you have is less, no matter which one you choose, without Christ it will never be more..........

Like I said. A rough day.
Thanks for taking my burden for awhile.

With the Love Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Hi Nick, i won't be able to answer all the points you raise today but wanted to make a start, and please no problem with what you've wrote, to be honest and truthful in a spirit of love is the way we question and learn about our faith, OK where to begin, "Illegal Immigration", it seems to me Nick that when Laws conflict with our Christian Faith then a Christian has no choice but to disobey those laws, when Christ said " I was a stranger and you took me in", there was no mention of whether that stranger was Illegal or not, the definition was one of need not legality, in fact Christ so identifies with the Stranger, the Hungry, the Naked, Thirsty and Homeless that when we help them we help him, and when we turn away , we turn him away, its a simple question, which side do you want to be on, the side of Legality or the side of Christ, for when we criminalise and puinish the stranger, you have to choose,........ as for borders, well i outlined my position in my reply to Sue, i don't agree with them, the same as i don't agree with the classification of people along racial, religious and national lines, we are all one World, Gods world, and even if the whole of humanity thought differently, as the vast majority of people here in the Uk do,, i would still hold true to my Christian beliefs, as for BREXIT, well thats just another step in the Nationalist process, sort of a making the UK great again without interference of those nasty foriegners, now where have i heard that before,...... and i'm surprised at your stance on Guns, just because its in the Constitution does that make it morally right, again as i see it when a conflict occurs between my faith and the law then my faith takes precedence, can you really imagine Jesus standing at the NRA conference with an Assault Rifle tucked under his arm, hard to see Christs Love and Compassion at the end of a Magnum 45,....... on the Environment question, last time i checked out of a total of arounf 37 billion tons of CO2 spewed out in 2017 China accounted for about 10.9 Billion tons, by far the biggest polluter, the US came in second at around 5.2 billion tons and India third at around 2.4 billion tons, the EU as a whole emitted 3.2 Billion tons, so it matters a lot what the US and EU do, for together they account for nearly 25% of Global emissions, if you take the historical context of Carbon emissions then the US and EU countries who built their wealth on the burning of Fossil fuels, Coal, Gas and Oil, have an even greater Carbon debt to repay, fact is those with the broadest shoulders need to bear the heaviest load, not forgetting the fact that the main reason China has such a high CO2 output is because over the last three decades much of the Worlds manufacturing industries have located to China because of the Cheap Slave Labour there and the almost complete lack of environmental enforcement, Justice dictates that we, those in the richest nations who are mainly responsible for the problem pay the largest sums in trying to address it, we probaly won't, because Greed and selfishness is the primary motivation in Humanitys sinful nature, but morally, we should,..... have to finish there Nick for the time being but i will reply to your other points tomorrow, thanks for bearing with me my friend.
 
Active
Hi Sue, yes i don't believe in artificial man made barriers or borders, i believe we are all created by God and that to follow Christs commandment to love others as we love ourselves and treat others as we would want to be treated there is no place for Nationalism, racism or dividing and classifying people on the basis of where they live, how can you claim to love your neighbour yet criminalise, imprison and persecute those fleeing oppression, violence and poverty, if the fruits of this world were apportioned fairly then there would be no need for mass migration to escape the poverty and suffering hundreds of millions of men, women and children have to endure,...... and i have no problem with anyone who has the right values, morality and policies no matter what their professed faith, or no faith at all, assuming positions of power, and who is to say just because someone professe Christianity, they are a Christian, as Christ said, these people profess me with their Mouths, but their hearts are far from me,...... and i'm not sure about your definition of Pacifism, but when i'm commanded to turn the other cheek when struck, told not to resist Evil, to love my enemy, to do good topthose that hate me and pray for those that spitefully use me, well that seems like a pretty good call for pacifism to me,..... and when Jesus said we should feed the Hungry, clothe the naked, House the homeless, welcome the stranger and cure the sick there was no mention of Legality, the fact they were in need is sufficient reason to help,..... and just how is Trump MAGA, for it seems to me that every time he opens his mouth its to speak Self Interest, Division, hate, intolerance and Fear, how does that accord with Christs message of Love and Compassion,...... and where does it say that Widows/Children must only be cared for by the family, not the government, why do you feel its OK for the Government to spend Billions of Dollars on Weapons and means of mass carnage and destruction but not on caring for those in need, do you feel thats Christs priorities, the National Budget is a Moral Document, it reflects our values as Individuals and a Society, Guns and Bombs over Bread and Shelter, well thats not my priority and i don't see it as Christs either,...... and yes i have dorrs and windows in my house, and they are locked , perhaps thats a reflection of my own sinful nature as much as the fear and prejudice generated by the society i live in, but i hope that if i had the wealth and land that comprises the US, then i would open it to all comers and reserve perhaps just a little for my own needs, as the man said, there is sufficient in Gods world for everyones need, but not for their greed, the problem we confuse need with want, and thats brought Gods world to the state its in today.

So - in effect -- you're saying to ignore borders / boundary lines of Any sort, Any where?

And what do you mean by artificial man-made borders, boundaries.

Every country has borders.

Have you noticed that in the world news / events -- we see people who flee their countries' tyranny Mostly stay in refugee camps just outside their own countries.

Have you ever tried to enter another country without obeying their entry laws?

Missionaries going to foreign countries Have to obtain visa's -- Have to follow certain procedures or they can't get in.

There are reasons for our laws -- God gave us the Ten Commandments. And we're also told to obey the civil authorities who've been placed in authority over us. Unless those laws would go against God's Word. Our disobedience would bring punishment of some kind. And there are very few laws that actually Do go against God's Word.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
OK where to begin, "Illegal Immigration", it seems to me Nick that when Laws conflict with our Christian Faith then a Christian has no choice but to disobey those laws, when Christ said " I was a stranger and you took me in", there was no mention of whether that stranger was Illegal or not, the definition was one of need not legality, in fact Christ so identifies with the Stranger, the Hungry, the Naked, Thirsty and Homeless that when we help them we help him, and when we turn away , we turn him away, its a simple question, which side do you want to be on, the side of Legality or the side of Christ, for when we criminalise and puinish the stranger, you have to choose,


Hello Rad,

Still haven't done that research I see!!! :crying: From just this post, I can see that it will be a tit-for-tat, back and forth that we'll be undergoing and if you hadn't noticed from my last post, is something that tires me to no end. For without your willingness to explore both sides, it appears to me that you are just looking for a "partner" to provide your justification for the position you hold or someone to do the research for you. For to use Scripture in these discussions you have to be honest with what the situation is from both sides. Example:

You have stated the highlighted above. Do you know that the "Illegal Immigrants" that are coming in "Caravans" to the Southern Border of the U.S.A. are not naked, thirsty, and homeless? I think you've mistook our Southern border as being connected to Africa who are actually leaving genocide, and war torn countries.

So, please don't use Scripture to justify the position you hold if you are unwilling to do what is necessary to make an honest assessment of the situation that is taking place. A discussion like this is fruitless; because you are seeking to set Scripture to only one position, while I'm attempting to have you include both in order to come to an understanding how Scripture should be applied to a given situation.

A determination should never be a right/left or even a liberal/conservative position. This is why I previously stated that "Party" is really a false dichotomy to hold onto, and why the individual must be the determining factor for selecting a politician to represent one or throw ones support behind.

Include both sides so we can come to a mutual understanding of events, or this discussion at least on my part as a member must come to an end. For in every position that one side has here, the other side just as readily has a response to. What have you gained? Except maybe as I said before the other person doing the research for you! :smile:

Finally, when it's all said and done. All we will create in this discussion is a greater division in the Body of Christ. There is enough division in Christianity without creating more of it unnecessarily brother. You're intelligent enough to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Active
Hi Bill, i do try to consider science, i'm no climate scientist myself , but when the Top Climate Scientists in the World almost unanimously agree that the World is Warming and human activity in the form of burning of Fossil fuels is mainly to blame, when all the top scientific Bodies and the major scientific institutions such as NASA and NOAA agree, when all the Governments of the World sign the Paris Accord committing themselves to action on reducing CO2 emissions and when the UNIPCC, composed of top scientists issue warnings that we are facing a Climate Emergency and that unless we take drastic action within the next 12 years we face Environmental meltdown, when even the Major Oil and Gas Companies such as Shell, Chevron, BP , ExxonMobil and ConoccoPhillips agree in court that climate change is taking place and burning fossil fuels is the cause, why do you think differently, what do you know that they don't?.
All of the pollutants made by mankind did not drop the planets temp by 10 degrees in one year, as did the volcano in Mexico back in to 70s/80s.

After the volcano errupted, a black haze could be seen. Shooting ash into the stratosphere, and there it stayed for the next 2 yrs.

The iceland volcano shut down air traffic for quiet a while after its erruption. Infact it srill affects air traffic to this day. Even though you hear little about it
 
Active
All of the pollutants made by mankind did not drop the planets temp by 10 degrees in one year, as did the volcano in Mexico back in to 70s/80s.

After the volcano errupted, a black haze could be seen. Shooting ash into the stratosphere, and there it stayed for the next 2 yrs.

The iceland volcano shut down air traffic for quiet a while after its erruption. Infact it srill affects air traffic to this day. Even though you hear little about it
Are we talking about El Chichon here?

Estimates of that volcano's effects vary at little. 0.4 degrees in the Northern Hemisphere or 0.2 degrees globally. It's difficult to measure because there was a super El Nino event in the same year with a warming effect. A 10 degrees change in a single year would have been catastrophic.


I'm getting increasingly concerned about false claims purporting to be facts being posted on this site. We claim to be people who follow the truth, and that should mean that we are careful handling the truth in all matters.
 
Active
Unfortunately there is so much False news and early speculation taking place in this entire world, that it's easy to get the two confused with the truth.

A glass can be half full or half empty. The contents of the glass is the same in both instances. One comment is positive and one is negative.
 
Active
Yes, it's not always immediately obvious what's true and what's not. But there's a few simple things we can all do. Here's the top lines of common sense advice from Mind tools How to Spot Real and Fake News – Critically Appraising Information

Six Ways to Spot Fake News
Separating fact from fiction accurately can seem daunting. But getting to the truth is always worth the effort – even if it's not what you want to hear! Use these six steps to weed out the truth from the lies:
  1. 1. Develop a Critical Mindset
  2. 2. Check the Source
  3. 3. See Who Else Is Reporting the Story
  4. 4. Examine the Evidence
  5. 5. Look for Fake Images
  6. 6. Check That It "Sounds Right"
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@Hekuran
LOL I used to get e-mail articles from MindTools for quite some time!

Thanks for sharing Brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Member

Rad

So - in effect -- you're saying to ignore borders / boundary lines of Any sort, Any where?

And what do you mean by artificial man-made borders, boundaries.

Every country has borders.

Have you noticed that in the world news / events -- we see people who flee their countries' tyranny Mostly stay in refugee camps just outside their own countries.

Have you ever tried to enter another country without obeying their entry laws?

Missionaries going to foreign countries Have to obtain visa's -- Have to follow certain procedures or they can't get in.

There are reasons for our laws -- God gave us the Ten Commandments. And we're also told to obey the civil authorities who've been placed in authority over us. Unless those laws would go against God's Word. Our disobedience would bring punishment of some kind. And there are very few laws that actually Do go against God's Word.
What i'm saying Sue is that as a Christian trying to follow the teachings of my Saviour Jesus Christ i cannot justify the creation of man made lines across Gods World deciding who will live and who will die, who will live in relative wealth and comfort and who will suffer and die in poverty and desperation, if i'm commanded to love my neighbour as myself, and treat others as i would want them to treat me, to welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, house the homeless and give to others what i would want for myself, how can i in all honesty turn my backs on the poor and persecuted just because someone years ago has drawn lines on a map,...... could i ask you a question, what does it mean to you when Christ said that New Wine must be put in New Bottles, new wine cannot be put in Old Bottles otherwise they will break and the wine ruined, for myself it meant when i accepted Christ into my life everything that i held dear and valued, all of my pre conceived ideas and accepted norms had to be revalued and questioned in the Light of Christs Commandments, the "New Wine" of Salvation could not be housed in the "Old Bottles" of my former life, only New values and ideas could contain it,...... its a hard and often lonely path to tread, but then thats what Christ said our life on this Earth would be, a life of Suffering and Sacrifice as we take up our Cross and follow him.
 
Member

Rad

All of the pollutants made by mankind did not drop the planets temp by 10 degrees in one year, as did the volcano in Mexico back in to 70s/80s.

After the volcano errupted, a black haze could be seen. Shooting ash into the stratosphere, and there it stayed for the next 2 yrs.

The iceland volcano shut down air traffic for quiet a while after its erruption. Infact it srill affects air traffic to this day. Even though you hear little about it
Think your figures are way out Bill, more like a 0.2 to 0.4 DROP in temperature for a year or two, the last ice age was caused by a global drop in temperature of between 3-5 degrees C, a 10 degree drop, even if it was Fahrenheit would have caused Global disruption on a massive and possibly irreversible scale,....... but we're talking here of a Global fall in temperature, the Earth is Warming, what makes you think in the light of all the evidence i presented that Human activity in the form of CO2 emissions isn't to blame?.
 
Member

Rad

Hello Rad,

Still haven't done that research I see!!! :crying: From just this post, I can see that it will be a tit-for-tat, back and forth that we'll be undergoing and if you hadn't noticed from my last post, is something that tires me to no end. For without your willingness to explore both sides, it appears to me that you are just looking for a "partner" to provide your justification for the position you hold or someone to do the research for you. For to use Scripture in these discussions you have to be honest with what the situation is from both sides. Example:

You have stated the highlighted above. Do you know that the "Illegal Immigrants" that are coming in "Caravans" to the Southern Border of the U.S.A. are not naked, thirsty, and homeless? I think you've mistook our Southern border as being connected to Africa who are actually leaving genocide, and war torn countries.

So, please don't use Scripture to justify the position you hold if you are unwilling to do what is necessary to make an honest assessment of the situation that is taking place. A discussion like this is fruitless; because you are seeking to set Scripture to only one position, while I'm attempting to have you include both in order to come to an understanding how Scripture should be applied to a given situation.

A determination should never be a right/left or even a liberal/conservative position. This is why I previously stated that "Party" is really a false dichotomy to hold onto, and why the individual must be the determining factor for selecting a politician to represent one or throw ones support behind.

Include both sides so we can come to a mutual understanding of events, or this discussion at least on my part as a member must come to an end. For in every position that one side has here, the other side just as readily has a response to. What have you gained? Except maybe as I said before the other person doing the research for you! :smile:

Finally, when it's all said and done. All we will create in this discussion is a greater division in the Body of Christ. There is enough division in Christianity without creating more of it unnecessarily brother. You're intelligent enough to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><





Hi Nick, alls i'm trying to do is understand why those Christians that voted for Trump did so, i suppose i've presented the evidence for the prosecution, now i'm asking others to in a way put their defence, what was it about Trump that made you vote for him what was it about Clinton that made you vote against her, i can then get the situation from "both sides", ...... on your point about illegal immigrants, or Asylum seekers as some may be, how do you know that they're not Homeless, Hungry or destitute, and Christ said to welcome the "Stranger", there was no definition or exclusion, and i wondered how much you know of the situation facing these people in the countries they're fleeing from, Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El salvador, mexico, thousands have died trying to cross the US Border, Men, women and children, the hardships and deprivations they face on their journey are horrendous, yet still they try, Hungry, thirsty, sick and alone, do you not see the face of Christ in them?,...... and i've got to say i can't see the other side, i can't see any Christian justification for treating people like this, but if you can please let me know,....... and what i gain from a discussion such as this is two fold, firstly of having to justify my own position, and secondly of listening to alternative viewpoints, for its when we allow our faith to become dogmatic, when we close our Ears and our hearts to the opinions of others , when we are so sure of our own righteousness that we feel no need or desire to be questioned on what we believe and why we believe it, that we are in danger of being a Blind man being led by a blind guide who will fall into the Ditch together.
 
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What i'm saying Sue is that as a Christian trying to follow the teachings of my Saviour Jesus Christ i cannot justify the creation of man made lines across Gods World deciding who will live and who will die, who will live in relative wealth and comfort and who will suffer and die in poverty and desperation, if i'm commanded to love my neighbour as myself, and treat others as i would want them to treat me, to welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, house the homeless and give to others what i would want for myself, how can i in all honesty turn my backs on the poor and persecuted just because someone years ago has drawn lines on a map,...... could i ask you a question, what does it mean to you when Christ said that New Wine must be put in New Bottles, new wine cannot be put in Old Bottles otherwise they will break and the wine ruined, for myself it meant when i accepted Christ into my life everything that i held dear and valued, all of my pre conceived ideas and accepted norms had to be revalued and questioned in the Light of Christs Commandments, the "New Wine" of Salvation could not be housed in the "Old Bottles" of my former life, only New values and ideas could contain it,...... its a hard and often lonely path to tread, but then thats what Christ said our life on this Earth would be, a life of Suffering and Sacrifice as we take up our Cross and follow him.

It's a bit hard to respond because God Did create this world for us. Originally there were no boundaries. We were told to spread out geographically. To reproduce. To fill the earth. But the Tower of Babel happened because Back Then -- the people refused to obey God in that respect. They decided to stay together in a group. So God created languages so that people would Have to spread out and find people groups that could understand each other.

Then mankind became So horribly sinful that God decided to start over by causing the world-wide flood. The earth was turned inside out and upside down. Thus we've ended up with continents and oceans and with lots of countries within countries. Leaders get involved in leading various countries and power leads to corruption. There are Middle-eastern countries and North and South America and Africa , etc, etc. This world has gradually become more and more wicked.

Scripture says that the poor and the wealthy will Always be here. Just the way life is. We're all created uniquely by God. And we Should be 'loving our neighbor' -- feed the hungry. Nothing says we Can't. And depending on what part of the world a person lives in -- there are conditions that are bad, good, war zones, school shootings, all sorts of good things and horrible things happening. We Are to share the Gospel unto salvation to all who will listen.

But there Are legal ways to enter countries and Non-legal ways. And That's just the way it is.

What would happen to you, if You wanted to enter another country in a non-legal way. Well -- maybe you'd be arrested and would start a prison ministry. And maybe you'd get shot and be immediately With your Savior. And maybe you'd be tortured -- if that would happen because of sharing your faith, so be it -- a martyr. But if its because you tried to enter some of those countries illegally -- well -- then again -- you'd have an opportunity to share Christ with them. Of course there Would be the language barrier to deal with.

So - in reality -- there Are boundaries that have been established Long ago. Whether a person Likes it or not is immaterial. We Are to obey the laws of the land.

Help people follow the laws. Help them get their citizenship papers. Help them learn the language. Show them Christ's love. Help Them to love the Lord God with all their heart, soul, and mind and Their neighbor as themselves.

But -- realize that as a Christian we Need to be following the laws.

And you Also need to realize the harm that is being caused by the hundreds of thousands of people who are streaming across our borders. And what all kinds of things that are being brought With them. Sex trafficking, harmful drugs, diseases. Their home countries need to be Helping them in the first place.

In years past -- invading armies wore uniforms and were men / young men -- they could be recognized. That ended years ago in other countries. The civilians were being used in horrible ways to defeat our men.

And Now, the invading armies are in the form of women and children. But those women and children are Not innocent. Our natural instinct is to protect women and children. But most of those 'children' are simply adults in childrens' bodies. And they attack this country. Those 'children' have no concept of what real children are.

And, of course it's sad. And for this present time -- that's just how it is.
 
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Hi Nick, alls i'm trying to do is understand why those Christians that voted for Trump did so, i suppose i've presented the evidence for the prosecution, now i'm asking others to in a way put their defence, what was it about Trump that made you vote for him what was it about Clinton that made you vote against her, i can then get the situation from "both sides", ...... on your point about illegal immigrants, or Asylum seekers as some may be, how do you know that they're not Homeless, Hungry or destitute, and Christ said to welcome the "Stranger", there was no definition or exclusion, and i wondered how much you know of the situation facing these people in the countries they're fleeing from, Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El salvador, mexico, thousands have died trying to cross the US Border, Men, women and children, the hardships and deprivations they face on their journey are horrendous, yet still they try, Hungry, thirsty, sick and alone, do you not see the face of Christ in them?,...... and i've got to say i can't see the other side, i can't see any Christian justification for treating people like this, but if you can please let me know,....... and what i gain from a discussion such as this is two fold, firstly of having to justify my own position, and secondly of listening to alternative viewpoints, for its when we allow our faith to become dogmatic, when we close our Ears and our hearts to the opinions of others , when we are so sure of our own righteousness that we feel no need or desire to be questioned on what we believe and why we believe it, that we are in danger of being a Blind man being led by a blind guide who will fall into the Ditch together.
Hello Rad,
You're playing the devil's advocate here on this illegal immigration. You have chosen a position and stand by it, when all you have to do is a little research, which I don't understand why you refuse to do so. Use your search engine to look for Honduras Caravans going to the U.S.A. (Videos if you prefer). This is an organized endeavor, not one where people are fleeing from persecution/war! Look with the critical eye of a non-partisan observer and you'll see easily enough that this is not something that had to happen or was spontaneous as happens in war torn countries.

I realize that pointing out the above to you, will only make you change the attack point that you are coming from. For if one point doesn't justify what you are saying, you'll find another. As long as what you feel is the righteous position, wins out. You don't know me so as far as knowing what these people are going. Guess what? I happen to be Hispanic Brother. I am. In fact first generation American. Both my parents were legal immigrants. My father from Puerto Rico, and my mother from Cuba. I have family members who were boat people, search that out if you don't know what that means. So, do I know a little something about this or am I'm just blindly go by feelings of self-righteousness?

Also, don't blame others for the conditions these illegal immigrants put themselves in. They have opened the door to it, and are paying the price of their own foolishness. Yes, that's right foolishness. The countries are not war torn as I mentioned in my previous post. If we bordered Africa, you know that the U.S.A would have helped, and then intervened. As some of the countries are doing in Africa, and who are being assisted by not only the U.N., but different countries worldwide. Want to figure who the most generous country is in giving? Not only in material goods, but also the blood sweat and tears. Yes, we do have more, and so give more, but there are plenty of countries that could do more and don't. You should go waggle your finger at them for awhile.

Seeking a better life is not an excuse for doing illegal acts, i.e crossing another countries border without permission. A Christian should not be siding with those, who have placed themselves and their families in such situations if for no other reason but for material gain. Scripture in fact would tell you accept the lot you have been handed. Rejoice my brother at all times! No, sadly these people have bought into the same propaganda that you apparently believe, in and that is grab what you can, no matter what the cost is to you and others. That a country wants to exercise the laws like every other country does, and they're the enemy? Don't you believe in the consequences of ones own actions? You should. We as Christians know that a judgment day is coming. Yes, even for those who have turned their backs on others, but also for those who foment lawlessness and strife.

As far as those who pay coyotes to get them across the border? Why are they doing this? Again for material gain. First they scrimp and save to pay someone to sneak them across the border! You don't see on how many different levels how wrong that is? Definitely not Scriptural brother!!!

Now you can come up with certain situations where some people are truly being persecuted, but when you start intermingling and justifying those who are not. All you are doing is making it worse for those who do need the refuge!!!! This is the sort of blindness that makes these situations worse no matter which side you have chosen to take. This is how the Devil likes to work brother. Making them believe that Salvation is a place. NO! Only God's Grace found through the Son of God Jesus Christ is Salvation found and in no other, and it doesn't matter if you're here, there, or anywhere you want to name. Our task to disciple and bring the Gospel to them is no different. Just more challenging, and yet as joyful when one can look into the eyes of them that know the Lord, even as the gaze of life leaves their eyes. For they'll be where we all want to be and that is with the Lord.

What you do here is justify the action, because the symptom of said action is horrifying to contemplate. Question here. Do you spread the Gospel in the same way. Identifying Hell/Sin to the individuals that don't know the Lord's Saving Grace and the resulting damnation they face without Him? You would do better telling the illegal immigrants the truth instead of chastising Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus as you've been doing.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
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Thank you for sharing your personal journey like that. Thank you for doing it the Legal way. Though Hard and God continue to bless you.
 
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Seeking a better life is not an excuse for doing illegal acts, i.e crossing another countries border without permission.
Your whole post is brilliant brother. This one particular line, seems like those who oppose border security just don't get it. It's amazing how people are so blind and willing to justify when it's acceptable for one to break the law of another country they're trying to enter, or say when it's "acceptable" to abort a baby. The deceptive spirit among people is just reigning so strongly just like Paul warned us would happen in the epistles.
 
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Rad

It's a bit hard to respond because God Did create this world for us. Originally there were no boundaries. We were told to spread out geographically. To reproduce. To fill the earth. But the Tower of Babel happened because Back Then -- the people refused to obey God in that respect. They decided to stay together in a group. So God created languages so that people would Have to spread out and find people groups that could understand each other.

Then mankind became So horribly sinful that God decided to start over by causing the world-wide flood. The earth was turned inside out and upside down. Thus we've ended up with continents and oceans and with lots of countries within countries. Leaders get involved in leading various countries and power leads to corruption. There are Middle-eastern countries and North and South America and Africa , etc, etc. This world has gradually become more and more wicked.

Scripture says that the poor and the wealthy will Always be here. Just the way life is. We're all created uniquely by God. And we Should be 'loving our neighbor' -- feed the hungry. Nothing says we Can't. And depending on what part of the world a person lives in -- there are conditions that are bad, good, war zones, school shootings, all sorts of good things and horrible things happening. We Are to share the Gospel unto salvation to all who will listen.

But there Are legal ways to enter countries and Non-legal ways. And That's just the way it is.

What would happen to you, if You wanted to enter another country in a non-legal way. Well -- maybe you'd be arrested and would start a prison ministry. And maybe you'd get shot and be immediately With your Savior. And maybe you'd be tortured -- if that would happen because of sharing your faith, so be it -- a martyr. But if its because you tried to enter some of those countries illegally -- well -- then again -- you'd have an opportunity to share Christ with them. Of course there Would be the language barrier to deal with.

So - in reality -- there Are boundaries that have been established Long ago. Whether a person Likes it or not is immaterial. We Are to obey the laws of the land.

Help people follow the laws. Help them get their citizenship papers. Help them learn the language. Show them Christ's love. Help Them to love the Lord God with all their heart, soul, and mind and Their neighbor as themselves.

But -- realize that as a Christian we Need to be following the laws.

And you Also need to realize the harm that is being caused by the hundreds of thousands of people who are streaming across our borders. And what all kinds of things that are being brought With them. Sex trafficking, harmful drugs, diseases. Their home countries need to be Helping them in the first place.

In years past -- invading armies wore uniforms and were men / young men -- they could be recognized. That ended years ago in other countries. The civilians were being used in horrible ways to defeat our men.

And Now, the invading armies are in the form of women and children. But those women and children are Not innocent. Our natural instinct is to protect women and children. But most of those 'children' are simply adults in childrens' bodies. And they attack this country. Those 'children' have no concept of what real children are.

And, of course it's sad. And for this present time -- that's just how it is.
We're not going to agree on this Sue, the base line for myself is that if someones in need, regardless of how they came to that position, my faith requires me out of Love and Compassion to help, Christs "Sermon on the Mount" i see as a blueprint for our Christian Lives, and Matthew 25 vs 31-45, "The Sheep and the Goats" as a representation of the "day of Judgement", and where Mans Laws and Societies Conventions conflict with my faith, then my faith should take precedent, it doesn't always as my sinful nature and fear of the consequences sometimes hold sway, but i try, and i guess thats the best any of us can do, perhaps to finish with one of my favourite verses from the Bible, short, but goes to what i consider the Heart of our Faith, 1 John 3.17 "If anyone has this world's goods and sees his brother in need but shuts off his compassion from him-how can God's love reside in him? ".
 
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