Can Salvation Be lost?

[Downunder]

After ten years of debate, I have yet to find a single anti-Osas believer capable of logical thought. One who can provide a coherent rebuttal to arguments raised. The following arguments were raised in a recent discussion and the replies were just shocking, they attest to the truth of OSAS and the true satanic nature behind an anti-OSAS belief.
1. Criminal next to Jesus on cross - Instant salvation
Instant and / or four hour long conversion on the cross beside Jesus. Then promised eternal bliss. No ''works'' required.

No it is OSAS believers who are fallacious in their reading and understanding of the scriptures; and your insults against other Christians who do not share your false OSAS doctrine as demonic and satanic is very poor form.
As for the thief on the cross nowhere does Jesus claim that he would be in heaven with Jesus - he promised him that he would be in Eden (a park, a garden) but again no reference to this being immediately.

 

[Downunder]

Resurrection is what Paul refers to in Phil. 3. You can't say with confidence that you are saved or how you know you are saved? I'll pray for you, brother.

That is not the issue.
The epistles in particular are about how Spirit-filled Christians stay saved.

 

[Downunder]

If your public testimony proclaims you were saved 49 years ago, why is it you can't proclaim right now with confident assurance that you are presently saved, are sanctified, and will be eternally glorified?

I too have a public testimony published on the internet and printed out for others to read.
I have confidence of my salvation, and my consecration, and in being justified, and being in Christ, and in being a son of my Father in heaven through his Spirit.
And it is my desire to walk in the Spirit and in the light until either I die or the day of the Lord comes and I am transformed in the twinkling of an eye.
What do I need to do - I need to continue to love my God my Father and continue to love Jesus as my Lord and Saviour - to hold onto that love until the very last day. To endure to the end is what I need to do.
It has nothing to do with some being truly saved but rather to do with free will, and being an overcomer and enduring despite trials and tribulations.
The more I overcome and pray in tongues the more my relationship with God is strengthened and becomes more faithful and fruitful.

But I have seen Spirit-filled Pentecostal saints baptised in water and the Spirit enjoying these signs shall follow them (miracles and healings, etc) eventually quench the Spirit and depart from the faith.
They were truly saved according to scripture but alas they allowed the weed and thistles of the world to grow in their lives and and have become unfruitful.

 

[Downunder]

THE EPISTLES TEACH US ON HOW TO STAY SAVED ...

2Peter 1:3 since his divine power hath granted to us all things unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us through glory and virtue;
1:4 whereby he hath granted us the precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1:5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in virtue knowledge;
1:6 and in knowledge self-control; and in self-control patience; and in patience godliness;
1:7 and in godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 For who lacketh these is blind, short-sighted, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for in doing these ye shall never stumble:
1:11 for thus shall be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
1:12 Wherefore I shall be ready always to remind you of these things, though ye know and are established in the truth which is with you.
1:13 And I think it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by reminder;
1:14 knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle cometh swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ also showed me.
1:15 Yea, I will give diligence that at each time ye be able after my decease to call these things to remembrance.

diligence > constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind.

 

[PloughBoy]

This is getting to sound like the person that was Born a boy 40 years ago, and now believes he is a girl, for some where down threw the years He lost manhood.
"OAMNAM" Once A MAN Not Always A MAN" the Parallels are frightening! the 21st Century, is too much for me!

For me ,i believe "OSAS"

Just because He like to wear Heels, and a Skirt , and put lipstick on, and polish his nails.

 

[JerryfromMass]

So do you say we cut out that which our Lord says will be cut out if they don't bear fruit?

All scripture is God breathed.

On the basis of what you say, regarding the branches that were grafted into the vine, and will be cut out if they do not bear fruit, not just cut our but burnt. Would you like to explain what you think this actually means please.
Grafted in means totally joined although reliant on the Lord God for nourishment which he supplies us with.
Grafted out means the opposite CUT OFF, CUT OUT and burnt.
You can't be cut out unless you were first grafted in.

Abiding in Christ and He in us in constant life giving communion, if we don't abide we are cut out.

I welcome your view regarding this based on your view of OSAS.

I know which way I read this, but I am always open and willing to listen to scriptural interpretation from other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Shalom

Brother,

Have you ever seen or done a tree graft? If the piece you're grafting into the root-stock is too dry, it won't be receptive to the live root, it won't produce fruit, it'll eventually be useless, dry up and wither. If the piece you're grafting in to the root-stock is too big, the root-stock won't be able to sustain it and it too will not produce fruit, will dry up and wither. When the piece of branch grafted into the root-stock is the right size and freshness, it will begin to grow onto the root-stock and become part of the tree, producing fruit year after year.

Sowing seed in good soil vs bad soil produces similar results to good grafting vs bad grafting. Farmers know such things as these are tried and true methods of producing crops: plant your seed in good soil and your seeds will grow and produce fruit; graft a freshly cut branch onto a right-sized sturdy root-stock and the branch will grow and produce fruit.

The dry branch, like the seed sown on poor soil, are those that hear the WORD and, for same reasons Jesus gives regarding seeds sown on rocks or bad soild, don't come to complete faith. The heavy branch is like the self-righteous pharisee who hears the word but refuses to change his mind and turn, because he believes his good deeds will outweigh his bad, and his pride keeps from trusting in grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

A branch grafted into the root-stock that produces fruit is like the seed that falls on good soil, that is to say: he hears the WORD, he comes to faith by hearing the WORD, he is fed by the WORD, he lives by the WORD, and he continues in the WORD so as to produce fruit of the WORD season after season.

When sowing on good soil, and grafting of good branches, both the seed and the branch are in communion with that which nourishes them, and that which nourishes does not say to the one it nourishes and is bearing fruit "Be gone, you!"

So it is with those who are once saved, to wit: they are saved, then continue in sanctifaction, and are in the end glorified. Therefore, once saved then presently and eternally saved.

 

[PloughBoy]

THE EPISTLES TEACH US ON HOW TO STAY SAVED ...

2Peter 1:3 since his divine power hath granted to us all things unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us through glory and virtue;
1:4 whereby he hath granted us the precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1:5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in virtue knowledge;
1:6 and in knowledge self-control; and in self-control patience; and in patience godliness;
1:7 and in godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 For who lacketh these is blind, short-sighted, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for in doing these ye shall never stumble:
1:11 for thus shall be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
1:12 Wherefore I shall be ready always to remind you of these things, though ye know and are established in the truth which is with you.
1:13 And I think it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by reminder;
1:14 knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle cometh swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ also showed me.
1:15 Yea, I will give diligence that at each time ye be able after my decease to call these things to remembrance.

diligence > constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind.

Good luck in trying to keep ones own "sonship"! For I have committed all things into HIS hands! For i cannot keep myself especially in my own power to retain something i do not deserve or can earn. For even The Crown of Life I will cast down at His Feet. For you all are much better person than I. So you all have much more to boast about your "pilgrimage" that was on earth more than I, around the coronation Table concerning your "salvation". For i will not be able to hold my head up to the "grace" that has been extended to me. "for many are called few are chosen"

 

[Reba1]

So do you say we cut out that which our Lord says will be cut out if they don't bear fruit?

All scripture is God breathed.

On the basis of what you say, regarding the branches that were grafted into the vine, and will be cut out if they do not bear fruit, not just cut our but burnt. Would you like to explain what you think this actually means please.
Grafted in means totally joined although reliant on the Lord God for nourishment which he supplies us with.
Grafted out means the opposite CUT OFF, CUT OUT and burnt.
You can't be cut out unless you were first grafted in.

Abiding in Christ and He in us in constant life giving communion, if we don't abide we are cut out.

I welcome your view regarding this based on your view of OSAS.

I know which way I read this, but I am always open and willing to listen to scriptural interpretation from other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Shalom

If one does not abide he was never Gods kid... she may have played the game ... he may have been TV preacher. Man kind is not above God . Man does not have control... where o where is the Scripture telling us we have free will... where is the Scriprture telling us we can undo our , Christs Blood bought Salvation.

 

[Downunder]

where o where is the Scripture telling us we have free will.

DUH !! that is the whole point of salvation under grace and the law of liberty.

 

[Reba1]

DUH !! that is the whole point of salvation under grace and the law of liberty.

Duh that is not a real answer. Is there Scrapture telling us about the law of liberty. We know there is not passages on man having free will.

 

[Downunder]

Duh that is not a real answer. Is there Scripture telling us about the law of liberty. We know there is not passages on man having free will.

And where is scripture in the NT that spells out that people do not have free will ???

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:12 Thus speak and thus act as those who are going to be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For judgment is merciless to the one who has not practiced mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

1Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

 

[Reba1]

Good Scriptures

 

[Brother-Paul]

" fall away or fail or depart or shipwreck their faith and their walk.
1st. What does that statement really mean, What does each one of those words highlighted means, in "biblical Terminology" You 1st, Most examine Each individual word that has been express in your statement and "take for granted" every word listed there. Most christians I have found both schooled and unschooled regarding the English Syntax pertaining to the "English Speaking" Bible disregard the "Written text" with "Prejudice, and even at This point, fell to even realize that in this context the word "Salvation" must be define. The word salvation has to be define, for christianity have so many definition of the contents of "Salvation" it will make a sober man drunk!

I thank God I am not a "christian" and what a Christian calls a "believer". I thank God I am A "Child of The Living GOD" a son purchased "Adopted" into HIS family before the foundations of the WORLD, and when I step out of line, My Father corrects me, and HE Scourges me very hard, that I might not be condemn with the world!. I am a son of the Living GOD and always will be, and that relationship will never, ever come to an end, through out eternity!
A christian or a believer might loose their salvation! But I will never loose my sonship, I'm sealed, I am Born of GOD! My Father will never turn HIS back on me!
If it was not for the Written WORD, in this day and time. I would be Lost! and confused as if a crowd of [profession Boxers surrounded me and commence a rally of punches upon my head]:= "blown by every wind and doctrine"

You cannot take for granted in this day and time, that every christians know what the word "salvation' means, and do not even know why we need it, Nor do they know who we need saving from.

PS and concerning the word "Believer" there are many definitions in "christianity" for that word and the world, even when a person says; a believer in Christ, many do not know what that term even means. For they are many.

"They who have lead us, has lead us astray"

New King James Version
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
New American Standard Bible
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

It's a Big Amen from me brother.

A breath of fresh air.

The word Christian has become watered down water.

Salvation is accepted as if putting some clothes on each morning, though the amount of clothing some put on probably sums up their view of the subject.

The word believer has become like the words God is love. Watered down, devilishly diluted.

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Anyone can believe, it is how one believe that matters, Salvation is ONLY through Jesus and is by God's Grace.

Anyone can think they are saved, but are they born again froim above, have they been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

May the good Lord continue to Bless you brother, in Jesus Precious Name. Amen

 

[Brother-Paul]

And where is scripture in the NT that spells out that people do not have free will ???

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:12 Thus speak and thus act as those who are going to be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For judgment is merciless to the one who has not practiced mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

1Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Greetings @Downunder

Scripture is clear we do have free will

It is emphasised in the conclusion, in the last few verses of John 3:1-21

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

If we have self control, that means we aren't God's control in everything.

Acts 24:25 But as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you."
1Cor 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
1Cor 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1Cor 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
2Tim 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Pet 1:6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

But for those who don't believe in free-will, this still doesn't guarantee OSAS.
Solomon walked with God almost all of his life, until the end. Annanias and Sapphira were in the church. Judas did miracles. Those in Matt 7:21-23; did miracles and cast out demons.
The five foolish virgins had oil at one time. The seventy-two that quit walking with Jesus. The Jews who were cut-off from the vine, if they all fell away... it must have been God's will that they fell away.

If it was His will for all of them not to be saved. Then how do you know it's not His will for you to be saved?

1Tim 2:3; This is good, and it pleases God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

John 6:38; "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Luke 22:42; saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

The Bible says we don't have to sin...

1Cor 10:13; No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

... so then why do you?

 

[Reba1]

Almost every one can see a 'picture of Jesus' and say that is a picture of Jesus. Yet we all know those pictures are not a picture of Jesus most are not even close to what He most likely looked like. Most of us are preconditioned to our beliefs. Tracks, movies, TV, overhearing conversations as kids, Sunday School. We often accept many things as truth with out any real investigating . Those old portraits that life planted in our minds 'of Jesus' are beautiful works of art, that face is warm and welcoming. Yet we know it is really not His likeness. Often we approach the gospel, the Word . The many passages of Scripture in the same accepted fashion..
Having re-read John 3 ,1-21 I do not see a message of freewill there, many do. I am thankful we can have some differing understandings. Having been raised to believe man is in control of his eternity i am thankful to know, in these old 'golden years', my Salvation does not depend on this old woman but on the Grace of our Sovereign Lord. His shed Blood . Striving to follow His Word because He first loved me. As a child wants to please his father . Trusting as a child sliding off the refrigerator to daddy's arms.

Some many folks read this verse Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. then add to it something like 'but I can turn my back , ignoring God's Words of 'no man' .

I do not doubt the Salvation of those Christians who believe they are in control of their own Salvation . Way too many family members died loving the Lord under the opinion they have/had freewill. To me what is lost is that childlike faith and understanding of sliding off the refrigerator knowing He has you in His arms.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

may i suggest you all find your Bibles and read Jeremiah and Ezekiel?

Do so with the subject being discussed in mind and please also do so with prayer to the LORD Who is merciful that He would grant you some understanding.

==============
I am closing this thread for a couple of days.


Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

thread open again,

post in peace


Jesus is Lord

 

[Butch5]

Hello there,

I found the link (above) on wwwbeliever.com and found it informative, and helpful in regard to the subject of the surety of salvation. If you have the time I hope you will listen to it, and comment on it's contents.

I find it irritating sometimes when a video link is employed to introduce a thread, because it requires that I have to spend time listening to something, when I would much prefer to read an OP, but in this case I thought it worth the possibility of causing irritation, for it is worth listening to and considering.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Wow, the very first passage he quoted is out of context.

 

[complete]

Wow, the very first passage he quoted is out of context.

Hello @Butch5,

What quotation are you referring to, please? For the first reference is not part of the subject, but an invitation (Isaiah 1:18).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris