Can Salvation Be lost?

[KingJ]

After ten years of debate, I have yet to find a single anti-Osas believer capable of logical thought. One who can provide a coherent rebuttal to arguments raised. The following arguments were raised in a recent discussion and the replies were just shocking, they attest to the truth of OSAS and the true satanic nature behind an anti-OSAS belief.

1. Criminal next to Jesus on cross - Instant salvation

Instant and / or four hour long conversion on the cross beside Jesus. Then promised eternal bliss. No ''works'' required.

2. Criminal next to Jesus on the cross - no works

Guaranteed heaven with no servitude, whilst those who replicate his devotion and ''add'' years of servitude to God's kingdom, do so at the risk of eternal ex-communication. This implies God is partial. God is not partial Acts 10:34. Impartiality is wicked. God is not wicked Psalm 136:1. An anti-OSAS belief implies God is partial and wicked.

3. Lucifer - Eternally removed from heaven

Lucifer, the fallen angels and all the wicked who reject Jesus will go to hell for all eternity. The scriptural theory is that there is no redemption plan for the fallen angels as they will never desire true repentance. Do we believe God made a mistake casting them out for all eternity? If we believe God did not, then likewise He is able to graft a saint in. IE God does not make mistakes. An anti-Osas belief implies God is an idiot who makes mistakes.

4. The process of being born again

Jesus laid His life down for us, this is the greatest act of love possible John 15:13. For a human to ever be grafted into the vine they need to have an equal depth of intent. We see this in Matt 16:24, Rev 2:10 and in all the examples in history of tyrants demanding we bow the knee and reject Jesus. So, if God cannot be sufficiently happy with us reaching the required depth of intent required for salvation, how is it that we are then confident with His sacrifice? God judges our hearts and minds at depths that only He can Jer 17:9-12. An anti-OSAS belief mocks the very core of Christianity and our union with God.

I am going to stop there, I could add another hundred such arguments, but I know that I will not get a coherent rebuttal to any of these, so why waste my time.

Conclusion - An anti- OSAS belief implies God is partial, wicked, foolish and our eternal salvation is not secure. It ticks all the blocks of a satanic doctrine. Not sure how any Christian can believe and teach such when they are informed and enlightened. I just nod my head in disbelief when I hear a ''scholar'' support anti-OSAS.

 

[KingJ]

In your opinion @King

Yes, in my opinion God is not a fool who washes devils with the blood of Jesus.

I notice you cherry pick part of what was posted.

The rest of your post was centered around the line I selected.

We pray for a person's salvation, we pray in faith, we believe when we pray. But hearts have to change, the spirit of God cannot enter an heart unless it is totally repentant. A person may say the right things in public with believers, but did it come from the heart. A person may appear to be a sheep, because they said the right things to those who are saved. Appearing to be saved and being saved are poles apart, light and darkness apart.

Once more, our sincerity is a separate matter. Nice to hear you acknowledge the fact that God first judges hearts properly.

We do not ask a person, as you put it, we pray for them constantly, we k ow if a seed is not in fertile soil and watered regularly it will on time die. We know we can tell a tree by its fruit, but first the tree has to grow, then blossom, before we are able to seeing the fruit is good or bad.

What we see, our sewing and the state of the ground are separate matters to salvation / OSAS. God is not a fool that plants a seed into unfertile ground.

No one is questioning God, as you put it, God knows if a soul is saved or not, we are to pray and discern what we see, scripture tells us so much about this, and what to eat h for..

But you are questioning God. When you say someone can lose their salvation after God has saved them, what would you call it? God was a fool that grafted a devil into His family?

If anyone is insulting God, it has to be yourself, unless you have totally misunderstood what I put.

How have I insulted God?

I appreciate it is a separate matter to losing salvation, but feel it is important that we are not considering someone who, appeared to be saved, as saved, when they are not. That consideration must come first, we will know by their fruits. It is s ripture based is it not?

You feel our fallibility is a topic related to God's infallibility? I don't agree. This is a common mistake by those arguing against OSAS believers.

 

[Reba1]

How do we unbuy ourselves from Him? Does the brat kid ever stop being your kid?.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's..
Mon so wants to be as God. God bought you. We are not sovereign we are bought owned. Our bodies and spirits.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[B-A-C]

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

The Calvinist premise that God knows the future of everyone's salvation isn't in the Bible. The Bible says some people will be erased from the book of life.
Is it a mistake they were ever in there? Was in a mistake for Judas to be in there?
Luke 10:20; "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

Was it a mistake that Satan was in heaven, and then kicked out?

What you consider a mistake, and what God considers a mistake doesn't appear to be the same thing. Is giving everyone a chance to be saved a mistake?

Yes, in my opinion God is not a fool who washes devils with the blood of Jesus.

Well we agree, God is not a fool. As for who He washes...

2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

 

[JerryfromMass]

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

The Calvinist premise that God knows the future of everyone's salvation isn't in the Bible. The Bible says some people will be erased from the book of life.
Is it a mistake they were ever in there? Was in a mistake for Judas to be in there?
Luke 10:20; "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

Was it a mistake that Satan was in heaven, and then kicked out?

What you consider a mistake, and what God considers a mistake doesn't appear to be the same thing. Is giving everyone a chance to be saved a mistake?



Well we agree, God is not a fool. As for who He washes...

2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

@B-A-C. I have a few questions for you.

1. Are you presently saved?
2. How do you know you're saved?

3. Are you being saved, i.e., sanctified?
4. How do you know you're sanctified?

5. Will you be saved, i.e. glorified?
6. How do you know you'll be glorified?

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And yet according to Luke 10:20; their names were in heaven.

Jesus kicks out the servant He owns in 25:30;
Jesus says He will cut down the tree He owns in Luke 13:9; if it doesn't eventually bear fruit.
Paul says people who don't continue in their belief will be "grafted out" or "cut off". He says if God didn't spare them, He won't spare you either. Rom 11:21;

 

[B-A-C]

1. Are you presently saved?
2. How do you know you're saved?

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13; Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14; I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13; Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14; I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Resurrection is what Paul refers to in Phil. 3. You can't say with confidence that you are saved or how you know you are saved? I'll pray for you, brother.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13; Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14; I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Brother, this your public testimony: "Saved when I was 12, baptized a week later, filled with Holy Spirit a week later. That was 37 years ago. Since then I have been a Sunday school teacher, youth leader, Bible study leader, and worship team drummer. I have seen God move in so many peoples lives, but mostly I continue to be in awe about how he moves in my life."

If your public testimony proclaims you were saved 49 years ago, why is it you can't proclaim right now with confident assurance that you are presently saved, are sanctified, and will be eternally glorified?

 

[Brother-Paul]

But you are questioning God. When you say someone can lose their salvation after God has saved them, what would you call it? God was a fool that grafted a devil into His family?

@KingJ

If you read what I put, you will see that I was not referring, at that point, to OSAS. I had stepped back after reading a previous comment to confirm, we must be sure first, when thinking someone has 'fallen away' that they were probably not born again from above, only that they had made a confession, in public, but that it could very probably have been from the head and not the heart.

As a result believers who heard the person make a confession, believe they have done so from the heart and assume the person is saved. I went on to say that, when the person appears to fall away they have not actually done so, they had never confessed and accepted Jesus from their heart. I also referred to the narrow road, the narrow way, they may appear to be on but if they are not saved there fruits will eventually show. We can tell a tree by it's fruits, but a tree has to first grow before it gives off fruit, good or bad, in fact the blossom also comes before the fruit.

May be I wasn't clear enough, maybe you jumped in to soon, may be we should move on.

That now confirmed, I also state that I am still not convinced regarding OSAS, from my prospective, more prayer and more study is still required. It is a debateable issue, with views in both camps.

Shalom

 

[Reba1]

And yet according to Luke 10:20; their names were in heaven.

Jesus kicks out the servant He owns in 25:30;
Jesus says He will cut down the tree He owns in Luke 13:9; if it doesn't eventually bear fruit.
Paul says people who don't continue in their belief will be "grafted out" or "cut off". He says if God didn't spare them, He won't spare you either. Rom 11:21;

Yes Jesus says He will cut down Jesus kicks out of heaven Paul says if God didn't spare them

20 bNevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that cyour names are written in heaven.”
Do you believe all names are written in heaven?

 

[B-A-C]

20 bNevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that cyour names are written in heaven.”
Do you believe all names are written in heaven?

I believe everyone who the spirits are subject to, has their name is heaven.
But everyone... no.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And yet according to Luke 10:20; their names were in heaven.

Jesus kicks out the servant He owns in 25:30;
Jesus says He will cut down the tree He owns in Luke 13:9; if it doesn't eventually bear fruit.
Paul says people who don't continue in their belief will be "grafted out" or "cut off". He says if God didn't spare them, He won't spare you either. Rom 11:21;

John 15 is a special scripture, when we are born again from above, we are grafted into the vine.

Jesus is the vine, God is the lump, the root, the sap comes,from the Father, through the vine Jesus, into the branches, the born again, washed and spiritually regenerated souls.

Note, if we do not bear fruit we will be CUT OFF, removed from the vine, and burnt. Thrown into hell.

That to me does not confirm the OSAS idea.

 

[JerryfromMass]

John 15 is a special scripture, when we are born again from above, we are grafted into the vine.

Jesus is the vine, God is the lump, the root, the sap comes,from the Father, through the vine Jesus, into the branches, the born again, washed and spiritually regenerated souls.

Note, if we do not bear fruit we will be CUT OFF, removed from the vine, and burnt. Thrown into hell.

That to me does not confirm the OSAS idea.

Brother,

The fruit of the branch is the same fruit which comes from the Spirit: love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, patience, self-control. Just like the seed sown on rocks or eaten by birds, not all that hear the gospel message will receive the Holy Spirit and the fruit therewith. But those that do, will do so once, and when they do they will be saved, and they will be eternally saved.

Can you at least admit that once a person is saved they can be eternally saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Can you at least admit that once a person is saved they can be eternally saved.

I can agree to that... they "can" be, and many will be.
But some will only be for a while.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother,

The fruit of the branch is the same fruit which comes from the Spirit: love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, patience, self-control. Just like the seed sown on rocks or eaten by birds, not all that hear the gospel message will receive the Holy Spirit and the fruit therewith. But those that do, will do so once, and when they do they will be saved, and they will be eternally saved.

Can you at least admit that once a person is saved they can be eternally saved.

Greetings @JerryfromMass

Every study I do in depth, I screw down, considering scripture after scripture, but I have to admit in almost 30 years I have not done an in depth study in the idea of OSAS.

I have always considered that if a person falls away, they were probably not saved in the first place, this I have mentioned in a post higher in the thread.

John 15:1-8 NKJV
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

v2 every branch in me, means the branch was grafted in. But every branch in me 'that does not bear fruit' HE TAKES AWAY. The branch that was in the vine is cut out.

v4 If we are in the vine, we abide in Jesus and Jesus in us. We cannot bear fruit unless we abide, that is being fed by the life giving Spirit.

v5 Jesus is the vine, His Words must abide in us, if not the Spirit will not feed the branch, we are starving ourselves, we must remain in The Word and The Word in us.
We can do nothing without Jesus.

v6 If we DO NOT abide in Him our branch will wither. He will cast us out! Cut the branch off and it will be burnt. Cast into Hell.

This does not guarantee salvation. It refers to one who is saved, grafted in, but is also clear we can be grafted out.

 

[JerryfromMass]

I can agree to that... they "can" be, and many will be.
But some will only be for a while.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

See, you are in agreement that once saved always saved is indeed Biblical. It's as Biblical as saying: not all that say they are saved are in fact saved, but there are those who are once saved-always and eternally saved.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Greetings @JerryfromMass

Every study I do in depth, I screw down, considering scripture after scripture, but I have to admit in almost 30 years I have not done an in depth study in the idea of OSAS.

I have always considered that if a person falls away, they were probably not saved in the first place, this I have mentioned in a post higher in the thread.

John 15:1-8 NKJV
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

v2 every branch in me, means the branch was grafted in. But every branch in me 'that does not bear fruit' HE TAKES AWAY. The branch that was in the vine is cut out.

v4 If we are in the vine, we abide in Jesus and Jesus in us. We cannot bear fruit unless we abide, that is being fed by the life giving Spirit.

v5 Jesus is the vine, His Words must abide in us, if not the Spirit will not feed the branch, we are starving ourselves, we must remain in The Word and The Word in us.
We can do nothing without Jesus.

v6 If we DO NOT abide in Him our branch will wither. He will cast us out! Cut the branch off and it will be burnt. Cast into Hell.

This does not guarantee salvation. It refers to one who is saved, grafted in, but is also clear we can be grafted out.

Brother,

Jesus's parables guide us on the issue of having confident assurance of salvation: the parable of the sower and soils; the parable of the vine and the branches; the parable of the virgins, the oil, and the coming of the bridegroom; the parable of the narrow and wide gates. While these parables teach that some are indeed eternally saved and can know with confident assurance that they are presently and eternally saved, they also teach that there are those that think they are saved but in fact are not. It is clear from these parables that God knows those who are HIS, and those are one's that have been once saved-always saved and eternally saved. God is in control.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother,

Jesus's parables guide us on the issue of having confident assurance of salvation: the parable of the sower and soils; the parable of the vine and the branches; the parable of the virgins, the oil, and the coming of the bridegroom; the parable of the narrow and wide gates. While these parables teach that some are indeed eternally saved and can know with confident assurance that they are presently and eternally saved, they also teach that there are those that think they are saved but in fact are not. It is clear from these parables that God knows those who are HIS, and those are one's that have been once saved-always saved and eternally saved. God is in control.

So do you say we cut out that which our Lord says will be cut out if they don't bear fruit?

All scripture is God breathed.

On the basis of what you say, regarding the branches that were grafted into the vine, and will be cut out if they do not bear fruit, not just cut our but burnt. Would you like to explain what you think this actually means please.
Grafted in means totally joined although reliant on the Lord God for nourishment which he supplies us with.
Grafted out means the opposite CUT OFF, CUT OUT and burnt.
You can't be cut out unless you were first grafted in.

Abiding in Christ and He in us in constant life giving communion, if we don't abide we are cut out.

I welcome your view regarding this based on your view of OSAS.

I know which way I read this, but I am always open and willing to listen to scriptural interpretation from other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Shalom

 

[PloughBoy]

YES believers can fall away or fail or depart or shipwreck their faith and their walk.

" fall away or fail or depart or shipwreck their faith and their walk.
1st. What does that statement really mean, What does each one of those words highlighted means, in "biblical Terminology" You 1st, Most examine Each individual word that has been express in your statement and "take for granted" every word listed there. Most christians I have found both schooled and unschooled regarding the English Syntax pertaining to the "English Speaking" Bible disregard the "Written text" with "Prejudice, and even at This point, fell to even realize that in this context the word "Salvation" must be define. The word salvation has to be define, for christianity have so many definition of the contents of "Salvation" it will make a sober man drunk!

I thank God I am not a "christian" and what a Christian calls a "believer". I thank God I am A "Child of The Living GOD" a son purchased "Adopted" into HIS family before the foundations of the WORLD, and when I step out of line, My Father corrects me, and HE Scourges me very hard, that I might not be condemn with the world!. I am a son of the Living GOD and always will be, and that relationship will never, ever come to an end, through out eternity!
A christian or a believer might loose their salvation! But I will never loose my sonship, I'm sealed, I am Born of GOD! My Father will never turn HIS back on me!
If it was not for the Written WORD, in this day and time. I would be Lost! and confused as if a crowd of [profession Boxers surrounded me and commence a rally of punches upon my head]:= "blown by every wind and doctrine"

You cannot take for granted in this day and time, that every christians know what the word "salvation' means, and do not even know why we need it, Nor do they know who we need saving from.

PS and concerning the word "Believer" there are many definitions in "christianity" for that word and the world, even when a person says; a believer in Christ, many do not know what that term even means. For they are many.

"They who have lead us, has lead us astray"

New King James Version
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
New American Standard Bible
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.