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What I am saying is that if they are saved and later on fall away, they were never saved to begin with. They had a "fake" faith in Christ.
Can a born again Christian lose their salvation?
What I am saying is that if they are saved and later on fall away, they were never saved to begin with. They had a "fake" faith in Christ.
Member
I understood that is what you said in your previous post. Which is why I responded with a summary of what has been scripturally displayed so far. The OP is not about the "fakes". It is about those who "turned back". The ones who crucify the Lord afresh.
The "fakes" never looked forward in the first place, let alone "turned back". We aren't speaking of them here.
Peace
Member
Farewell then, sorry to see you go, but if you do come back, you are welcome to show where it says in scriptures that someone saved can never turn back to destruction. That verse in 1 John only deals with those never saved in the first place.
You should probably know that sounds a lot like OSAS doctrine which is non-scriptural and dangerous... you can read through the posts from the beginning of this thread and I think you'll get a much fuller picture from several of the brethren here
Blessings
Member
Hi Dovegiven
are you saying some one would not have hope of eternal life if their faith is shipwrecked? (as in not able to regain tha faith)
I hope that's not what your saying because Jesus told us the parable of lost sheep... where He would indeed search out for the lost sheep.
are you saying some one would not have hope of eternal life if their faith is shipwrecked? (as in not able to regain tha faith)
I hope that's not what your saying because Jesus told us the parable of lost sheep... where He would indeed search out for the lost sheep.
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Yes. It is what the Bible says is possible, and gives record to that happening.
1 Tim. 1:[18] This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; [19] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [20] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Those men became blasphemers, false teachers, leading hearers away from Christ. They didn't fight a good warfare. No such warning would be necessary in that context concerning teachers that were never born again. Unbelievers pretending to be believers were not at all in that context. Such people already belong to Satan, being Children of the Devil. Paul delivered them to Satan. Whom Satan has already can't be given to him.
For the sake of brevity I won't include the text of Hebrews 6, already pointed out by others here, concerning apostasy. Apostasy isn't possible among unbelievers of any religion I know about. I will add a better thought for all of us to dwell upon, that is Hebrews 6:[11] And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: [12] That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
A personal comment at this point is many believers require many years of hearing/reading enough scripture to even realize what "losing faith" is really about, so in my experience dealing with my own faith issues and counseling others it usually turns out believers have saving faith, but might never comprehend faith unto miracles and the like.
If a person believes he or she doesn't have saving faith, maybe salvation hasn't been applied, making today another day for salvation to enter in. A deep concern about a lack of faith is to me an indication the Holy Spirit is wooing a person to Christ. However, for a Christian to be tormented over that suggests to me Satan has come accusing and condemning a believer, attacking before the believer is firmly settled in the Word. The Holy Spirit is our Comforter, so we know any torment isn't coming from God.
I'm probably quoting someone from the past to say I believe in security for the Believer who holds biblical faith and hope to the end, insecurity for the Makebeliever, and hopelessness for Unbelievers whether formerly believers or remaining heathen.
Jim
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Dove I agree they were believers but I cant agree that they couldnt repent. theres actually many reason for this. 1) What authority did paul had to condemn? He didnt really have authroity to decide ones fate. 2) Your wrong in saying they had become false teachers.. it doesnt say anything about wheter or not they teach. 3) Paul said he had given them over to satan so that the would learn not to blasheme. so he must have meant temporarily putting away of these people so that they would stop blasheming.
Most importantly God wants all to be saved so it's not true some couldnt be saved at some point. 1Ti 2:4
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(And again the parable of lost sheep as well parable of prodigial son )
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jari, I wish to comment separately on the second part of your post
The parable you referenced in Mat 18 is preceded immediately with Jesus saying Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
I think we all understand that quite well. But we know Jesus wept over losing the lost sheep of Israel, His own rejecting Him. He did everything needed for salvation of the Jews, commanding the apostles to go to the house of Israel with the gospel. We all should understand that most people, Jew and Gentile alike hearing the gospel so far died without Christ. The context doesn't discuss born again Christians wandering away from Christ, though we know figuratively the child could represent a novice believer. The Greek for the lesson object was "paidion", that being a little Jewish child that culturally would not be considered spiritually significant until coming of age.
Jesus' objective in ministry before His ascent to Heaven was Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 15:24 supports that. Of course, all that Jesus taught applies to His other sheep, us believers whether of the Jews or Gentiles. But in the context of what the Father wanted for the House of Israel, all we should take from the parable of the lost sheep is that the Shepherd will seek to recover those that go missing, but the actual results don't support that the Shepherd never permanently loses a lost sheep. Probably every hearer of that parable knew sometimes a lost sheep was killed and eaten by predators, or perhaps died from a fall or thirst. Using that story to say the Shepherd always gets the sheep back alive would be a badly applied life lesson. We learn from the conclusion of the parable it isn't God's will to lose any, but many are lost, and some depart by choice. We are commanded to pray for God's will to be done on earth, as it is of course done in Heaven, meaning we don't see much of His will happening here if not prayed in. When one is brought back home there is rejoicing. But the Hebrews 6 passage firmly teaches there are "sheep" that for whatever reason have so seriously departed that they can't be brought back into the fold, but are counted for the slaughter.
Jim
The parable you referenced in Mat 18 is preceded immediately with Jesus saying Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
I think we all understand that quite well. But we know Jesus wept over losing the lost sheep of Israel, His own rejecting Him. He did everything needed for salvation of the Jews, commanding the apostles to go to the house of Israel with the gospel. We all should understand that most people, Jew and Gentile alike hearing the gospel so far died without Christ. The context doesn't discuss born again Christians wandering away from Christ, though we know figuratively the child could represent a novice believer. The Greek for the lesson object was "paidion", that being a little Jewish child that culturally would not be considered spiritually significant until coming of age.
Jesus' objective in ministry before His ascent to Heaven was Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 15:24 supports that. Of course, all that Jesus taught applies to His other sheep, us believers whether of the Jews or Gentiles. But in the context of what the Father wanted for the House of Israel, all we should take from the parable of the lost sheep is that the Shepherd will seek to recover those that go missing, but the actual results don't support that the Shepherd never permanently loses a lost sheep. Probably every hearer of that parable knew sometimes a lost sheep was killed and eaten by predators, or perhaps died from a fall or thirst. Using that story to say the Shepherd always gets the sheep back alive would be a badly applied life lesson. We learn from the conclusion of the parable it isn't God's will to lose any, but many are lost, and some depart by choice. We are commanded to pray for God's will to be done on earth, as it is of course done in Heaven, meaning we don't see much of His will happening here if not prayed in. When one is brought back home there is rejoicing. But the Hebrews 6 passage firmly teaches there are "sheep" that for whatever reason have so seriously departed that they can't be brought back into the fold, but are counted for the slaughter.
Jim
Member
taking this line of thought you could also claim that God is unable to save lost sheeps if predator gets them first. Or that we make some bad decision and God is unable to rescue us.
I wouldnt say that God is unable to save someone who wills to come back. That is to say God isn't omnipotent. But like we know all is possible to God so I see no problem why couldnt He find the lost sheep? No one ever "dies" as sheep that they cannot be brought back. that's not bibilical. every human were dead in their transpasses of sins before they came to christ they were so utterly lost there was nothing we brought to Christ with us. we were spiritually dead.
if he made us alive once he can do it second time and how many times it takes (but Good thing is we cant ever lose the faith (that Jesus is real) we once received, if we are born again).
so why teach God cant bring someone back?
and you know in the parable of lost sheep there is that thing too about the 99 other sheeps. And at the time Jesus spoke this parable everybody in jewish nation were probably "lost". so I think it suites better when applied after the flock of "99" is first gathered.
I dont know if you read from this thread already but Im in different view on heb 6. If people are lost for good its because they never were born again because they never believe in Jesus as their savior.
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jari, Paul continued on later about Hymenaeus in 2 Tim. 2:[16] But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. [17] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
While in that place let me point out a worthy saying Paul gives the Church through pastor Timothy 2 Tim. 2:[11]
Alexander...mentioned again in 2 Tim. 4:[14] Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
[15] Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. From Acts 19 we learn he was a Jew in Ephesus who tried to speak in defense of fellow Jews over a great dispute over the goddess Diana, but he was shouted down for two hours. The crowd knew all Jews opposed idols. Making shipwreck of his faith later indicates he became a Christian, as Jews had no faith comparable to that of Believers.
I won't discuss questions over Paul's authority to do anything recorded of him. I believe the Bible is true.
Jim
Member
yes that makes sense. their faith was in shipwreck so they had plenty of error as result they spoke that to others. but this is different from delibarately speaking lies dont you think? They just believed wrong on certain things (and were thus blashemous).
sorry I didn't quite follow here.. i always thought the copper smith alexander was unbeliever who didnt like Paul
I too believe the bible but that wasnt my point. my point is that Paul knew none could be judged until due time and only by God so he wouldnt do that him self.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
1Co 4:4-5 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. (5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
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Note in Hebrews 6 there are no words properly identifying a person that had not previously been a Child of God, but instead it is plainly describing a mature Christian. Carefully reconsider Hebrews 6:[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
No lost person that was never saved could possibly have those experiences. They are only possible for a person in Christ.
It is impossible for anyone so described to be renewed unto repentance once they apostatize. For the Lord to do so would require a second crucifixion, a double shame. We are not saying that, but God has set the boundary. The Shepherd has decided beforehand which sheep won't be saved again. It's far better to simply accept the plainly stated word of God rather than pass on unfounded dogma.
Perhaps there remains a concern about such a person temporarily falling into sin that is "not unto death". That isn't included in the context of Heb 6. The OP subject is about those who depart, fall away, leave the Way. We are direly warned not to walk in sin, but if we sin we have an advocate. That applies for the mature Christian who understands his part is to repent, knowing Jesus will intercede for the repenter. There is sin that is beyond forgiveness as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. I think scriptures indicate quite clearly a believer can fall into blasphemy as can an unbeliever, as noted by Paul of three believers, and Jesus of the scoffers opposing Him.
Jim
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Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I seems to me that this falling away refers to going back to dead works(re-crucifying Christ by disbelief in his finished work) and it is not at all about someone struggling with sins or even outright rebellion and anger toward God.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I seems to me that this falling away refers to going back to dead works(re-crucifying Christ by disbelief in his finished work) and it is not at all about someone struggling with sins or even outright rebellion and anger toward God.
Active
Exactly. I have two friends among humans on earth. Neither relationship is ideal, but we have held out together since the 1960's in spite of "bumps in the road". It is my understanding that having that many true friends is a great blessing.
I have grown to realize I should have had by now 5 true friends, but I am responsible for breaking relationship with 3 cherished people in my lifetime so far over relatively minor differences I should have had more patience about. That sort of says for me that a rocky relationship between me and God is far better than abandoning fellowship altogether. God isn't the one that walks away.
Dead works? Far worse to go back to what I know doesn't work than to struggle with what is promised to work, but might not seem to be helping. Thank you, Thiscrosshurts.
Jim
Member
Hi Dovegiven
I understand the way your lookning into this. many say the same thing. But I think it's erronous assumption that because some one experienced Holy spirit that they we're in christ or saved. . the scripture doesn't actually describe a mature christian because it uses words as "enlightened"(christian is supposed to be light of the world itself not just enlightened) and "tasted", which are strongly pointing that they had only first experiences of Holy spirit....
they way one can reads this part of hebrews is dependant on how one believes about salvation it self. Does Jesus forgive us not only past sins but future also? If God forgives past sins also then no recrufiction is needed but Christ onetime sacrafice at the cross is enough to forgive all sins (First chapters of hebrews are dedicated for telling how Christ's sacrafice is sufficient to forgive all sins..) and to certainly forgive a repentant heart.
So therefore.. recruficating son of God afresh is implying is implying disbelief on the already given sacrafice.
I understand the way your lookning into this. many say the same thing. But I think it's erronous assumption that because some one experienced Holy spirit that they we're in christ or saved. . the scripture doesn't actually describe a mature christian because it uses words as "enlightened"(christian is supposed to be light of the world itself not just enlightened) and "tasted", which are strongly pointing that they had only first experiences of Holy spirit....
they way one can reads this part of hebrews is dependant on how one believes about salvation it self. Does Jesus forgive us not only past sins but future also? If God forgives past sins also then no recrufiction is needed but Christ onetime sacrafice at the cross is enough to forgive all sins (First chapters of hebrews are dedicated for telling how Christ's sacrafice is sufficient to forgive all sins..) and to certainly forgive a repentant heart.
So therefore.. recruficating son of God afresh is implying is implying disbelief on the already given sacrafice.
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Some portions of the Book of Hebrews were written to address "working" Jews who received Jesus as their Savior. That doesn't mean the principals don't apply to any and all Christians who feel they need to "work" to satisfy some requisite for salvation.
Additionally, some parts of the Book of Hebrews are most definitely written for the Body as a whole, and not merely Jews. No matter, all of it is applicable. Much of it relates to advanced doctrines for mature believers. God is sovereign, He decided what would be found in our modern Bible, despite fallible man, and we should trust that the canon are indeed speaking to us in these last days.
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jari, I am replying to your post #75.
I don't know of a single Bible example of a false concept of God perpetuated by the Holy Spirit. He can't possibly have more than one influence doctrinally while remaining One with God. If a man stands by the Spirit, we know by the Word of God what to expect. Holy men of old experienced the Holy Spirit, all to the same expected results. Even Judas Iscariot experienced Him, taking part in the fulness of the ministry of Christ. Under His influence the expectation is the same. How a man ends up is another thing.
By "mature" Christian I point to the Greek pater for father as used by John in 1 Jn 2. It is obvious John was addressing various levels of spiritual maturity. Each level is expected to experience some degree of "enlightenment" from God. The Greek for "tasted" is geuomai, to experience good or bad, to know the nature/character of something. I watched a cooking class on FoodNetwork and heard the chef ask the audience "Have you tasted the possibilities of saffron?" Well, I had not heard of that spice, so no, had not experienced it. After learning about it I bought some and we are enjoying it here and there. It's delicate, nice, very expensive and hard to find, and hard to notice rightly. In the same way Jesus demanded in John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
There is a "tasting" of many things concerning human existence, as well as life in Christ. Probably most of us miss most tastings, but hopefully not tasting of the word of God.
On to your next point. I worked alongside a brilliant geophysicist concerning a wetland area that was drying up. Along came another expert that cautioned me the fellow was but a second year grad student (but had studied at least ten years and had worked for Shell Oil all along), himself having achieved a PHD in that field 20 years earlier. It was apparent he was not keeping up with technology, but we respected him anyway. The young man keeping up was a fresh breeze of inspiration, but didn't have the gravitas of the older geologist. I took the younger's advice mostly. In the same way a person who is freshly connected to the Holy Spirit ought to be at least as inspiring to us and a sage of the faith, both being led of the same Spirit. But sometimes a sage might have become a bit deaf to the voice calling to him many years. Anyway, the qualifications of Hebrews 6 fit a sage of the faith, one who has experienced the fulness a human could expect to know in this life. A newly converted believer hears the same voice, but might require many years of experience and study to taste what the mature Christian has tasted of.
As for "reading" a scripture depending on how one believes a related doctrine, I avoid doing that. I look at all the context, not just the individual words and their original meanings, but the culture, politics, and other aspects of the days in which those scriptures were given. People around the world remain mystified over the meanings of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the American Revolution, the "War" between the States (Civil War), and other beginnings of American society because they lack the historical/cultural basis around each event. Well, unfortunately today many Americans lack that background knowledge, so can't appreciate those events.
I caution against "reading" any portion of scripture in light of some denominational dogma or personal belief that hasn'tr been tried by the fire of the Word of God as a whole. If a doctrine/dogma is proper, it won't be contradicted by other scriptures in context.
Your fourth point really has to do with the efficacy of the blood of Jesus. It is equally powerful to wash past sins, but also ready to deal with a person who hasn't even been born again. The blood will wash him too if he meets the conditions of salvation. There are conditions involved, including belief of the gospel, repentance, obedience. The toughest part to comprehend is the repenting. Going back into a sin that one repented of presents some serious theological problems. It's one thing for a cleaned up believer to fall into occasional sin, then repent, forsaking that. It's quite another for that believer to keep falling into a sin washed by the blood. Taking that up a notch is that believer coming to a point of denying Jesus. Jesus said if we do that He will deny us before the Father. The more we know and have experienced, the more dangerous that becomes.
On that last point, Paul focused on those betrayers as having overturned the faith of folks by saying the resurrection had come and gone. That stripped them of their hope. Pretty serious to lead people astray like that.
Jim
I don't know of a single Bible example of a false concept of God perpetuated by the Holy Spirit. He can't possibly have more than one influence doctrinally while remaining One with God. If a man stands by the Spirit, we know by the Word of God what to expect. Holy men of old experienced the Holy Spirit, all to the same expected results. Even Judas Iscariot experienced Him, taking part in the fulness of the ministry of Christ. Under His influence the expectation is the same. How a man ends up is another thing.
By "mature" Christian I point to the Greek pater for father as used by John in 1 Jn 2. It is obvious John was addressing various levels of spiritual maturity. Each level is expected to experience some degree of "enlightenment" from God. The Greek for "tasted" is geuomai, to experience good or bad, to know the nature/character of something. I watched a cooking class on FoodNetwork and heard the chef ask the audience "Have you tasted the possibilities of saffron?" Well, I had not heard of that spice, so no, had not experienced it. After learning about it I bought some and we are enjoying it here and there. It's delicate, nice, very expensive and hard to find, and hard to notice rightly. In the same way Jesus demanded in John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
There is a "tasting" of many things concerning human existence, as well as life in Christ. Probably most of us miss most tastings, but hopefully not tasting of the word of God.
On to your next point. I worked alongside a brilliant geophysicist concerning a wetland area that was drying up. Along came another expert that cautioned me the fellow was but a second year grad student (but had studied at least ten years and had worked for Shell Oil all along), himself having achieved a PHD in that field 20 years earlier. It was apparent he was not keeping up with technology, but we respected him anyway. The young man keeping up was a fresh breeze of inspiration, but didn't have the gravitas of the older geologist. I took the younger's advice mostly. In the same way a person who is freshly connected to the Holy Spirit ought to be at least as inspiring to us and a sage of the faith, both being led of the same Spirit. But sometimes a sage might have become a bit deaf to the voice calling to him many years. Anyway, the qualifications of Hebrews 6 fit a sage of the faith, one who has experienced the fulness a human could expect to know in this life. A newly converted believer hears the same voice, but might require many years of experience and study to taste what the mature Christian has tasted of.
As for "reading" a scripture depending on how one believes a related doctrine, I avoid doing that. I look at all the context, not just the individual words and their original meanings, but the culture, politics, and other aspects of the days in which those scriptures were given. People around the world remain mystified over the meanings of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the American Revolution, the "War" between the States (Civil War), and other beginnings of American society because they lack the historical/cultural basis around each event. Well, unfortunately today many Americans lack that background knowledge, so can't appreciate those events.
I caution against "reading" any portion of scripture in light of some denominational dogma or personal belief that hasn'tr been tried by the fire of the Word of God as a whole. If a doctrine/dogma is proper, it won't be contradicted by other scriptures in context.
Your fourth point really has to do with the efficacy of the blood of Jesus. It is equally powerful to wash past sins, but also ready to deal with a person who hasn't even been born again. The blood will wash him too if he meets the conditions of salvation. There are conditions involved, including belief of the gospel, repentance, obedience. The toughest part to comprehend is the repenting. Going back into a sin that one repented of presents some serious theological problems. It's one thing for a cleaned up believer to fall into occasional sin, then repent, forsaking that. It's quite another for that believer to keep falling into a sin washed by the blood. Taking that up a notch is that believer coming to a point of denying Jesus. Jesus said if we do that He will deny us before the Father. The more we know and have experienced, the more dangerous that becomes.
On that last point, Paul focused on those betrayers as having overturned the faith of folks by saying the resurrection had come and gone. That stripped them of their hope. Pretty serious to lead people astray like that.
Jim
Member
Hello all. So can a Christian lose salvation? That is a big fat YES. God will not force anyone to live in heaven if they dont want too. The wonderful promise of CHRIST is that He came to save us FROM sin not IN sin. Matt1:21. He can give us the power to overcome ANY sin.
Saying that now dont know if you guys read the end of Revelation chpt 22 but it talks if we are still filthy or sinning when HE comes will He allow us to go to heaven? What do you guys believe?
Saying that now dont know if you guys read the end of Revelation chpt 22 but it talks if we are still filthy or sinning when HE comes will He allow us to go to heaven? What do you guys believe?
Member
I didnt say that. but my point was more like theres some people in bible like Judas and king Saul who experienced Holy spirit and power of God yet they were never in very good relatiship with God. Which shows one can be close to God's power but not nessarily born again......
Dovegiven , so are you saying having tasted means immature christians?
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Replaced it ? is not a word that comes to mind.
What would you think of the 100 pages in the catechism of the Catholic Church is on about then due to the commandments.
I thought far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.
And how about this. Jesus said, "if you would enter life, keep the commandments".
Mt 5:17 the Law has not been abolished. are we invited to rediscover it in the person of his master who is it's perfect fulfillment.