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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation?

Discussion in 'Introduction' started by moznpeg, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. The Holy Spirit was promised as we experience Him now, but wasn't gifted among those patriarchs waiting for that promise. The Spirit of God "came upon" OT folks in the sense of visitations, with more interaction from angels and prophets. There was some special anointing by the Spirit to do certain jobs, like with Samson, David, etc, but none of them had received of that promise of the Spirit to be received after Jesus' resurrection. Because of some examples of poor relationships between God and King Saul, for instance, we know the Spirit withdrew quite readily due to disobedience.
    Having tasted of of the good word of God can indeed apply to immature Christians, if in fact they have read it with "open eyes", receiving it unto salvation.

    An interesting take on tasting the Lord is in 1 Peter 2:[1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, [2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: [3] If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    That tells me that such tasting of the graciousness of the Lord is based on those conditions in verse 1, which are qualities of the fruit of the Spirit expected of mature Christians. Once a person is made to see the truth he is enlightened, and responsible for living it.
    Jim
     
  2. #82 jari, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
    Yes in sense they became partakers of Holy spirit and tasted heavenly things like in hebrews. but they werent nessarily born again. Not saul nor his soldiers who become all possed of Holy spirit.

    Holy spirit was also experiensable in temples of israel but this did not mean anyone who stepped in was good as "born again" believer.

    which means the people in hebrews werent nessarily either which is why they fell away. (born again believer does not fall away as in for good because they know Jesus is the giver of the Holy spirit and not just mere prophet)



    it says there "as new born babies" - yet again the word tasted is connected to someone who has merely tasted something of spirit.
     
  3. #83 Dovegiven, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
    The Jerusalem Church, as I've mentioned was regarded as the "mother church", where the Church began. All the apostles except Paul came out from there carrying the original beliefs and traditions practiced by the "First Church". It was 100% Jews converted to Christ. Upon further revelation from the Holy Spirit the apostles began dealing with the mixing of Judaism and Christianity. Those Judeo-Christians, the "Hebrews" who were the intended receivers of the epistle, needed the Jew-talking provided by Paul, at that time knowledge that would have been a strange mystery to Gentiles. The word "Hebrews" wasn't penned by Paul in Hebrews, and neither will you find "Jew(s)". The tag words in that epistle would most definitely be recognized by devout Jews, and later to be appreciated by Gentile converts who took time to learn the whole of holy scriptures. The content of the epistle "Hebrews" is highly advanced theology, not adapted for newborn babes in Christ.

    One last comment on that. There are many things about Christ for us to taste, to drink of, to eat metaphorically. It seems to me the most common tasting I see among new converts is the taste of the presence of the Lord, causing joy and other emotions. It's a sweet flavor with a pleasant aroma, metaphorically speaking. The day will come for each true believer to taste higher things, majestic things reserved for committed disciples to enjoy while in service to the Lord Jesus. Hebrews 6 lists those most precious tastings. Perhaps you have yet to taste of those, while they await you and anyone else who seeks, knocks, asks, opens.

    From another angle Paul warned the Galatian Christians not to require the Jewish circumcision for Gentiles, or to in any way take up an attempt to add righteousness through the Law of Moses. If they do such a thing, they will fall from grace. Falling from grace is yet another way a person can cast away salvation in Christ. Galatians 5:[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Before commenting it might be best to study that whole chapter. Every time I read there I learn something fresh.
    Jim
     
  4. #84 jari, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
    i don't think it means person can lose salvation. the galations didnt stop following Jesus but they fell from grace according to Paul because they started doing "works of the law". which probably meant they also didnt experience Holy spirit anymore because they werent believing in grace like one should and grace was what gave them HS at the first place.

    we need God's grace everyday but not only that we live in and by God's grace everyday. that's how Paul always started His letters "may the grace of God be with you all" but galatians didnt believe in grace anymore like one should and now they needed to get back on track following Jesus like one should.. in grace and not under the law.

    it was Pauls firm belief (which is the truth) that they needed to believe in God's love in order to grow properly and not get tangled in the works of the law again. Gal 5:6


    Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


    God bless you
     
  5. What about free will? God gave Adam & Eve a choice, and he does us. So some are saying that if you accecpt Christ as you savior then eventually ingnore him, stop praying, fellowshiping with fellow believers, etc. You'll still go to heaven? I know that God choses us, but I've alway thought we have the free will to reject him as well. I know that I fell away for about 10 years, and the things I did were terriable in God's eyes, anbd if I died in that time, I don't believe I would have gone to heaven. But know I'm back walking with him, and I know where I'm going.
     
  6. #86 Dovegiven, Nov 13, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
    jari, like said already we do each have a free will to choose, none of us kept under some automated deal that applies regardless of our decisions made and lived by since the RUN button was hit on a past "salvation day" program.

    I don't just "think" such an important doctrine as salvation is to be allotted to long-ago accepted/settled dogma, but should be continually checked against what the Bible says about that. In the days when denominations of believers were few if at all present in the midst of the ancient Catholic Church, one had but one "proper" attitude. But Christians today have a magnificent access to the word of God that was denied to so many people in centuries past, putting us in a position requiring true disciples of Christ to stand for Truth instead of a popular dogma that is better accepted among the majority of people. I really believe "dogma" has succeeded over truth often simply because men have engineered beliefs to comfort themselves.

    I will rest my entire case of this matter on that one passage. Beyond that, I will declare that no person can straddle two mountains at the same time. I can stand firmly upon the peak of Mt. Sinai alongside Moses and the Law of sin and death, or I can stand with Jesus and the grace of God upon Mt Olives. If I forsake habitation on Jesus' mountain of grace, I have only one other place to be, and that would be under the law of sin and death. There is no possibility for mixing the two.

    Either I must stand with Jesus, or Moses. If I decide to stand with Moses to any degree, then I stand with Moses and Jesus is of no eternal effect upon me.

    It is true that many early Christians reverted to Moses just like the Hebrews in the wilderness desired Egypt, because they didn't see Jesus come rescue them from the tyranny of Rome. The Galatian Church faced the same position of choice, wooed back to the law of life and liberty by Paul's exquisite ministerial leadership for a season, though for not many years following. They went the way of modern Turkey.
    Jim
     
  7. 1 John 3:22 we keep his Commandments, end of story. and Christ never said he did away with the 10 him self, now did he ?
    Paul is only who he is and no one is greater then his master and this is a fact.
    There is nether Jew or gentile as all are the same in Christ Jesus.
    No one could be so stupid to believe that any disregard the 10 but under Grace we can see where the Law fits in. and it's not mixed at all. but it has a purpose and if one does not believe that then one must be bewitched.

    We are not under the Law but under Grace and if one does not understand the difference or is trying to persuade others that it's like the Jews see it, one is then totally and utterly wrong and a full on liar trying to deceive and rob Christians, just as Satan does.

    Why would Holy Moses bother with the 10 if they are not from God and why would God give the 10 to Him in the first place ?
    Now do we reject what God gave us people of God ? as just a joke ?
    Satan worked against Holy Moses when he brought the 10 down.
    Today is Satan working in all the foolish shallow simplistic denominations leading us down the drain, so that all Gods Saints efforts were in vane. like i see some push, you can just do what ever. as you are saved OSAS doctrine of demons.

    If one ever studied the CC catechism on the 10, one may have a education and realize it is a foundation of Jesus and the ones rejecting it must be of Satan. and without the foundations you have noting at all, just like as if one rejects the Hebrews calling you have nothing. that's why we have the OT and the NT as the OT is a blueprint of the NT. and one may say you are mixing them both up, and i would say no you must be mixed up, as one must put it into perspective..
     
  8. Like the US President sends his authority abroad among select Ambassadors, so was Paul. Let's remember the RCC sainted Paul, agreeing with Paul's peers, those of the original apostles, that Paul was in fact a major player in the accumulation of the Word of God, given that Word by the Holy Spirit. Most of our New Testament is a compilation of Paul's writings. It is true Jesus didn't say what you point out, but Jesus did declare more knowledge of the Way would come from the Holy Spirit. Several of the apostles received the rest of the gospel that way. Peter made it clear that it vital to comprehend Paul, though admitting many ignorant folks wrestle with his words. Now let's hear from Peter, another esteemed apostle no more or less greater than his Master, as you put it. 2 Peter 3:[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

    There is ample knowledge in the scriptures proving that the Mosaic Covenant was nailed to the cross, fully abolished in the flesh of Christ. Ephes. 2:[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Even the most obvious command to follow Abraham with flesh circumcision was abolished, which fact most affected Hebrew Christians, the "Judaizers" also called "The Circumcision" continually perverting the true gospel of Christ, seeking to undo the teachings of Paul wherever he went ministering. To follow them was equated to abandoning Christ

    Not sure what you mean there. Galatians 3 thoroughly explains who is bewitched. As for my attitude toward "the 10", I am not bound to anything given to Moses, but I love every word, agreeing it is holy writ. In a small way the King James English style is obsolete, essentially abolished among most people in the world, but I love the style, the poetic magnificence, while also cherishing modern English writ. I am bound to Jesus the Christ, seeking out His commandments within His all new covenant of grace through faith. The gospel doesn't curse me, whereas the Law of Sin and Death carries a great curse.

    You have it right. Col. 2:[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Not a line of the Mosaic Covenant can hold us to obey it in order to receive righteousness unto salvation. All it could do was impute sin and curses for not obeying. With the curses removed, we are free from it just like a wife was freed from a marriage upon death of her husband. But for a person who has revceived salavation apart from the requirements of the Law to seek any degree of salvation from the Law, that person falls from grace and back into the curse of the Law.

    Quite a great topic!
    Jim
     
  9. If you would enter into life, keep the Commandments. is what Jesus said to the young man.
    Mat 5:17 the Law has not been abolished. Jesus Acknowledged the 10 but also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter. as he preached a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees as well as that of the Gentiles. he unfolded all the demands of the Commandments. "you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'you shall not kill.'... But i say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement"
    Which commandment in the Law is the greatest ?
    You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind. this is the greatest !
    And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as your self.
    So on these two hang all the Law and the Prophets.
    Now i see in Jesus Christ that their full meaning is revealed.
    In Christ we should be freed from the slavery of Sin. now Moses delivered the 10 as a path of life and as we should know a blue print.
    One may wonder why Jesus did not come before Moses if all the Hebrew struggle was for nothing at all. Jacob becoming Israel, means nothing then at all. and the whole thing was just a joke ! just like the way i see modern day christianity portrayed, it is a joke with all the egocentric worldly gibberish. like one will say that they are going the Heaven, boy what an ego ! fact is no one can say that as it's only one that gives that pass and not of our self's to boast, but only of ones hope.
     
  10. Since Jesus had not gone onto the cross at that point it was true the law had not been fulfilled yet. But His death finished the fulfillment when He said "It is finished". Once the Law was brought to the end of it's mission in His body and blood, it was replaced with a better covenant that has no curse, ratified by His blood instead of being ratified with the blood of animals.
    Being a true Jew who did in fact keep all the Law perfectly, of course Jesus taught the 10 and more. The commandments Jesus was referring to in verse 19 were His commandments such as taught in the beatitudes in the earlier verses. Those were not suggestions, and were not taught by Moses. Throughout His ministry Jesus emphasized "my commandments" which in fact far exceeded the righteousness standard of the Mosaic Covenant. The reason is there is no life offered by that one, only death, because none of us can independently keep them well enough to help our eternal destiny. Evidence of that is in Matthew 5:[21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    He led out citing Moses, then exceeded the Law with a higher calling to His righteousness, and the life that comes from it.

    The Law was given to serve as a "schoolmaster" unto Christ, as Paul put it in Galatians 3:[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    I finished grade school, then no longer needed those teachers. They prepared me for high school. I finished that, no longer needing to attend high school classes, the teachers having prepared me for college. I finished college, no longer needing my college professors, who prepared me to deal with my working career.
    That's all I have time for right now, hoping I make myself a bit more clear on the topic of the basis of our salvation, and how it is possible to cast it away by more than one means. Reverting back to the old school is dangerous.
    Jim
     
  11. Hi pg many seem to think what Jesus said about on these two commandments hang all the prophets was new. Jesus was quoting the OT. One in Deut. The other in Lev. Nothing new pPaul breaks it down in Rom 13:8-10, what Jesus meant by that 2 Commandments. What i believe i see nowadays is the pendullum has swung the whole other way from the Jews trying to have salvation thru works to Christians nowadays relying on just a feeling or grace.
    You know what i mean there are some o think they can drag there brother one day to church and the pastor calls the brother up and the brother repeats all the pastor says and wallah hes saved for life. The brother can sin all he wants and even go to another religion but dont forget he's saved. Hahaha. Many people believe that.
    like i was saying and what Jesus told the rich young ruler, quoting Jesus. "Yes you did well for keeping the Commandments but go sell everything and rely on me". See it takes Jesus and Obedience. Says it 3 times in the Book of Revelations talking about nowadays. God bless
     
  12. Hi Jim.
    And could we say that, what would be the point of the schoolmaster if i did not know all that teaching.
    If i was ignorant of sin, and that being lacking the 10 or disregarding them completely, what does that profit one.
    And sure there certainly is a far higher calling in Christ as the Spirit expaned on all that, but the foundation stones are clearly their for all to see and try to avoid.
    I think as one progresses in the Spirit of Christ one sees the foundation stones for what they are and only what they are and if one tries to deny this then one is lost with out guidance.
    The 10 are not to be trampled under foot with disregard at all. and we are not that stupid to condemn one, because one has fell on them. but one should get back up again and let the Holy Spirit guide one and in that we learn from our mistakes. i am sure one does not just sit back thinking O well who cares, i don't as that would be contradictory to the Spirit, would it not.

    Now in my trade as a contractor, i know what to do and why it is that i do things the way i do, as there is a reason for it all. but ? if i subcontract to a contractor like a builder then for all sorts of reasons i have to disobey all reason and just do as he says or i will get the sack on the spot, as i can not say a word to defend myself at all in anyway shape or form. and that is the way it is now days but 20 years ago it was totally 180 degrees the other way round as all did there job the correct way and the head contractor would go ballistic if he knew one was doing the wrong thing and you would be on your tail in a flash and out of there.
    Now I am a master in my job and i know why things fail. and i know that wagers of Sin leads to death and if we don't deal with our sin we are on the road to ruin.
     
  13. Yes i see that to, as the feelings are not true in the fulness of Love but some sort of wishful thinking, as true in depth Love is like ones parents who guide you in your up bring ( hard work and dedication ) i believe it surely is. and your parents are not just your friends they are much more that just that.
    My Dad made sure that he was firm on me when he needed to be, as he would not tolerate nonsense and nor does our Holy Father. as we don't just lie in our own filth, as we have a higher calling in Christ Jesus.
    And we are not to cast pearls before swine.
     
  14. #94 Thiscrosshurts, Nov 16, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
    And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    It must be easy for you then to know the way.
    Have you found the key to obeying the first commandment because I have been a believer for 25 years and I think I might have come close once for a few seconds to comprehending what this scripture even means.As far as I can see I would end up needing him way more than air,which I already think I do but I can't hold my breath very long.Anyway I shudder at the thought of being tested on this one.

    I'll have to stick with being dead to the law and dead to sin or I would have to always wonder if I am loving him enough.

    Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
     
  15. I find the first commandment easy as we are summons to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him above all else.
    Second, the name of the Lord is Holy and you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vane.
    Third, is due to holiness and honer of God.
    Forth, Duties.
    Fifth, you shall not kill.
    Sixth, is about offenses against marriage.
    Seventh, theft.
    Eighth, forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others.
    Ninth, the battle for purity.
    Tenth, forbids avarice.
    Nothing wrong with them things i suppose. Satan may like one to disregard them all, i would think.
    I would not say i know the way. but as the holy Spirit in Jesus guides one in truth and i do believe there is truth in the 10 as a foundation guide. and if one just rejects the 10 then maybe one has no moral compass or another jesus or maybe Paul is there salvation and reject Jesus as Israel. thinking there is a two people doctrine. fact is there is only one.
     
  16. Then why do you need to be commanded to do it?
     
  17. Stick with being dead to the law? What is your perception of Rom. 7:5-8.
     
  18. Sorry wron verse Rom 8: 6-8.
     
  19. #99 Thiscrosshurts, Nov 18, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
    Was this a mistake?
    Because it explains what I'm talking about pretty well.

    Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    The carnal or natural mind is governed by logic and appearances and makes decisions based on the temporary things rather than eternal.

    Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    The carnal mind says "do love" and the spiritual mind says "be love".
    The carnal mind needs a list to know what is and isn't sin.
    The spiritual mind knows that whatever is not of faith is sin.
    This would change with maturity which the law cannot do.
    I consider not believing God sin because I can't not believe God in faith.
    So since I know God's word and promises having fear would be an indication that I am not in faith therefore I am back in the flesh and racked with sin.

    Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Indeed because without faith you cannot please God.
    I can't commit premeditated murder in faith like The apostle Paul did to the Christians while Paul was under and obeying the law.
     
  20. What i dont understand? Sorry i know i was taught a certain way myself, until I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me. I read from this those that are carnally minded are emnity against Gid. Do you know what EMNITY means? I meam this is easy to understand. For it says that those not subject to the Law of God are EMNITY against God neither can be, so those not subject to the.Law CANNOT please God.

    Remember this is Paul who wrote this! The same Paul who wroe the Law is good, just and holy. The same Paul that said "should we con't to sin(break Gods Law) because of grace? CERTAINLY NOT! Forgot the verse. The Law cannot save us! It only drives us, points out our sins, drives us to Jesus our Reedemer. Rom 7:7 how can we know what is sin except for the Law?

    Why iis keeping the Commandments a character trait of Gods people in the end of times? Rev.12:17,14:12, 20:12. Please before you disregard everythin because of what you were brought up to believe give God a chance and yourself and study this subject. Its for your salvation. Do not let others influence you. It'll be you and God face to face on the Day of
     

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