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Beliefs of RCC / Biblical?

Loyal
And then I'd gotten into infant sprinkling. or tried to.
This is a somewhat touchy subject also (aren't they all :smile: )
Yes infant baptism is something the RCC does, and then later when you are older (usually in mid teens or so) they have something called confirmation.
However... this is where it's starts getting tricky into "what is a Protestant". I said earlier some churches that consider themselves to "Protestants"
still follow many RCC and "eastern church" practices. Are they really Protestants... I don't know. But they have priests, cardinals, archbishops... and infant
baptisms and confirmation. So to these people (typically Episcopalian/Anglican and Lutheran ELCA) this an accepted practice... "because we do it my church".

I suspect this is why you have not gotten many replies on this.

Most "mainstream" Protestants, do not support this. However they believe in something called "infant dedication". It is not a baptism at all.
Merely a promise from the parents to the church, that they will raise the child as "Christianly as possible" and the church agrees to help them in this "as much as possible".
The child makes their own decision to get baptized (or not) when they are old enough to be responsible for their own decisions.

Now... that I have offended not only RCC people, I hope this thread keeps going.
 
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Active
@KingJ -- you wanted to start the discussion regarding the RCC. One of the strong beliefs is in purgatory. It has been based on one passage in one of the books in the Apocrapha.
Yes, I did want this discussion. It is mostly hilarious how much many flame the RCC. How ignorant we are.

Theoretically speaking, why is it that you are offended by a belief that teaches saints can re-unite with God and not a belief that that teaches saints cannot re-unite with God?

Many believe a saint, who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, repents often and serves God their whole lives, can lose their salvation if they go back into the flesh but for a season and will then find themselves in hell for all eternity.

Scripturally speaking, yes a belief in Purgatory is obtained from a few scriptures in the Maccabees. But there also other scriptures used.

1 Pet 3:19, 1 Pet 4:6, 2 Cor 7:1, Heb 12:14, 1 Cor 3:13, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 15:29, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 John 1:9, Luke 12:47, Matt 5:26, Matt 5:48, Psalm 115:17, Rev 20:12, Rev 21:27, Zech 9:11, Matt 12:36-37, 1 John 15:16-17.

Purgatory is seen as a time for purification before meeting God. Now, yes, granted we read the above scriptures in a different context. My only point is that it is a Rom 14:5 disagreement. It is not one to 'flame' the RCC over.
 
Active
Yes, I did want this discussion. It is mostly hilarious how much many flame the RCC. How ignorant we are.

Theoretically speaking, why is it that you are offended by a belief that teaches saints can re-unite with God and not a belief that that teaches saints cannot re-unite with God?

Many believe a saint, who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, repents often and serves God their whole lives, can lose their salvation if they go back into the flesh but for a season and will then find themselves in hell for all eternity.

Scripturally speaking, yes a belief in Purgatory is obtained from a few scriptures in the Maccabees. But there also other scriptures used.

1 Pet 3:19, 1 Pet 4:6, 2 Cor 7:1, Heb 12:14, 1 Cor 3:13, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 15:29, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 John 1:9, Luke 12:47, Matt 5:26, Matt 5:48, Psalm 115:17, Rev 20:12, Rev 21:27, Zech 9:11, Matt 12:36-37, 1 John 15:16-17.

Purgatory is seen as a time for purification before meeting God. Now, yes, granted we read the above scriptures in a different context. My only point is that it is a Rom 14:5 disagreement. It is not one to 'flame' the RCC over.

Why 'theoretically speaking'? Saints Can re-unite With God or that they Can't re-unite with God? A saint is a born-again believer -- when he or she dies they are with Jesus Christ immediately. God created the first human being Adam and then Eve. Thus civilization began and continued on. So I'm not understanding your concept of anyone being united with God. He's our heavenly Father when we've accept His gift of salvation. Father in the sense of God being the Father in the trinity. A person Becomes a son or daughter of God through salvation. But it's not being 'united' with Him. 'we' don't become 'little Gods' with Him.

The Only way a person is 'purified' before meeting God -- is through their personal decision for their personal Salvation. Justification takes place -- because of the blood shed by Jesus Christ -- God sees a born-again person Through that blood -- just as if he/ she had never sinned.

Context Of Scripture is the Key To Scripture. So the context Of passages needs to be agreed upon. Romans 14:5 "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike -- Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

so You're saying that as long as You're convinced in Your mind that purgatory is okay to accept but I am convinced that it Isn't okay because It's Not Scriptural -- then we need to be able to agree to disagree.

I haven't even taken time to look up all the passages you presented. But the concept of purgatory is a very important concept. Either it's true or it Isn't. Just like there's one way and only one way to enter heaven. Either accept God's gift Of or reject it. There are no detours offered to get us to the same location.

Okay 1 Peter 3:19 -- 'by whom also He went and preached to the spirit in prison," that verse is saying Nothing about any spirits being 'purified' before meeting God. A person Could - Possibly get out of That passage that a person in Abrahams' bossom would get a 2nd chance to accept Christ as their Savior. The one's in the Hades part. -- but that's a Maybe.

the 4:6 passage -- again -- a maybe because it is in God's Word -- but Context of that verse. The verse starts out "For this reason....." so that Tells us to look at previous verses to find out what's being talked about.

And now for Heb. 12:14 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord;" Now That is Really relevant to this subject.

So -- you're trying to say that just because there are some 'minor' disagreement over Scripture -- that's no reason to 'flame' / roast / the RCC over the coals. The disagreement that come up -- based on Scripture -- are Not minor things.

the 'goal' of this thread has Not been to roast any group over the coals. Simply to point out Scripture.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 14:6 that He is the way the truth and the life and that No man comes to the Father, but through Him. That is very specific. Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way. Trying to come up with little 'detours' along the way are going to get a person into Big trouble. And you Could say that a 'detour' Eventually leads you back to the main road. But I've Also been following a detour that's gotten messed Up. With Unclear signs to follow and a person ends up Lost. They end up someplace they weren't planning To go to. And in This case -- it's the road leading to Eternity. there are only two destinations available. Ya miss the One and end up in the Other. And Then, there Is No turning back cause the bridge got washed out or part of the road washed out.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Why 'theoretically speaking'? Saints Can re-unite With God or that they Can't re-unite with God? A saint is a born-again believer -- when he or she dies they are with Jesus Christ immediately. God created the first human being Adam and then Eve. Thus civilization began and continued on. So I'm not understanding your concept of anyone being united with God. He's our heavenly Father when we've accept His gift of salvation. Father in the sense of God being the Father in the trinity. A person Becomes a son or daughter of God through salvation. But it's not being 'united' with Him. 'we' don't become 'little Gods' with Him.

The Only way a person is 'purified' before meeting God -- is through their personal decision for their personal Salvation. Justification takes place -- because of the blood shed by Jesus Christ -- God sees a born-again person Through that blood -- just as if he/ she had never sinned.

Context Of Scripture is the Key To Scripture. So the context Of passages needs to be agreed upon. Romans 14:5 "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike -- Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

so You're saying that as long as You're convinced in Your mind that purgatory is okay to accept but I am convinced that it Isn't okay because It's Not Scriptural -- then we need to be able to agree to disagree.

I haven't even taken time to look up all the passages you presented. But the concept of purgatory is a very important concept. Either it's true or it Isn't. Just like there's one way and only one way to enter heaven. Either accept God's gift Of or reject it. There are no detours offered to get us to the same location.

Okay 1 Peter 3:19 -- 'by whom also He went and preached to the spirit in prison," that verse is saying Nothing about any spirits being 'purified' before meeting God. A person Could - Possibly get out of That passage that a person in Abrahams' bossom would get a 2nd chance to accept Christ as their Savior. The one's in the Hades part. -- but that's a Maybe.

the 4:6 passage -- again -- a maybe because it is in God's Word -- but Context of that verse. The verse starts out "For this reason....." so that Tells us to look at previous verses to find out what's being talked about.

And now for Heb. 12:14 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord;" Now That is Really relevant to this subject.

So -- you're trying to say that just because there are some 'minor' disagreement over Scripture -- that's no reason to 'flame' / roast / the RCC over the coals. The disagreement that come up -- based on Scripture -- are Not minor things.

the 'goal' of this thread has Not been to roast any group over the coals. Simply to point out Scripture.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 14:6 that He is the way the truth and the life and that No man comes to the Father, but through Him. That is very specific. Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way. Trying to come up with little 'detours' along the way are going to get a person into Big trouble. And you Could say that a 'detour' Eventually leads you back to the main road. But I've Also been following a detour that's gotten messed Up. With Unclear signs to follow and a person ends up Lost. They end up someplace they weren't planning To go to. And in This case -- it's the road leading to Eternity. there are only two destinations available. Ya miss the One and end up in the Other. And Then, there Is No turning back cause the bridge got washed out or part of the road washed out.

I like what you have written in the above Post Sue, I didn't get involved discussing Purgatory because, I felt/feel it is not scripture based, I also did not know enough to comment, a paddle in the water is fine, but it is not good to keep walking if you don't understand how to swim. I avoid getting involved in what I don't know enough about.

Your comments, it is true or it isn't, is where I stand also, and if it is not in scripture, the Canonised Word of God, to me it is a RCC addition.

But the concept of purgatory is a very important concept. Either it's true or it Isn't. Just like there's one way and only one way to enter heaven. Either accept God's gift Of or reject it. There are no detours offered to get us to the same location.

Bless you
 
Active
I've been learning a Lot by researching subjects that Do come up. I'm into doctrinal apologetics which is probably why I do that. What is Scriptural and what Isn't and Why. Granted there Are plenty of subjects I don't really understand -- the threads about prophesy , etc, I tend to not get involved with. Some of it's like 'greek' to me.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
I've been learning a Lot by researching subjects that Do come up. I'm into doctrinal apologetics which is probably why I do that. What is Scriptural and what Isn't and Why. Granted there Are plenty of subjects I don't really understand -- the threads about prophesy , etc, I tend to not get involved with. Some of it's like 'greek' to me.
Apologetics accepted Sue :grin:


Prophesy is so important, you surprise me, prophesies were given in advance so when they happen we know God told us, God through his prophets said they would be.

Luke 24:25-27 (NKJV)
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44-45 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

John 13:19 (NKJV)
19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

Jeremiah 28:9 (NKJV)
9 As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent."

Jeremiah 23:5,6 - Jeremiah prophesied in the days during and after the fall of Judah to Babylon. He predicted a King who would be called the Lord of Righteousness and would reign and prosper as a descendant of David. Judah and Israel would be saved and dwell safely in His reign. [1 Chronicles 17:11; 2 Samuel 7:12; Psalms 132:11]

Acts 13:22,23 - Jesus was born of the seed of David to be a Savior. [Matthew 1:1; Luke 3:31; Acts 2:29-36; Romans 1:3]

You will have read so many prophesies in the NT that have been fulfilled and not realised, if I remember right over 20 prophesies were fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.

I find prophesies a fascinating topic as they all point to what was to come and as we can see as believers they were fulfilled 'to the letter'. Few prophesies are left this side of the Rapture.

Bless you
 
Active
so You're saying that as long as You're convinced in Your mind that purgatory is okay to accept but I am convinced that it Isn't okay because It's Not Scriptural -- then we need to be able to agree to disagree.
No. I feel you don't read posts before you reply.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Because of the cross of Christ -- And His bodily resurrection - the law has been fulfilled and 'we' are Now in the age of grace -- Jesus Christ became the Final Lamb of God -- His was the Last sacrifice needed.

The beginning of Christianity -- the Church.

Greetings Sue

Jesus came to fulfil the Law we all agree but that does not make the Law obsolete.

Not one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the Law till ALL is fulfilled, till heaven and earth passes away.

Surely, if Jesus said, the Law was fulfilled on the cross, that would suggest the end, but because he says, till heaven and earth passes away, that means the Law is significant, the Law applies through to the end.

On that basis would it not be wise to say to oneself, I will keep an open mind on this scripture, there must be something I have missed or hasn't been revealed to my understanding yet.

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Jews were a chosen race. Separated and isolated. God's laws were given to them. Both blessings and curses. We can learn from the OT laws, certainly. But to enforce the letter of the law is to not grasp the new covenant.

The great commission is to preach Jesus. As Paul and the disciples did.

Paul clashed with Peter and explains all we need to know on obedience to OT law in Gal 2:14-21.

Gal 2:21 If I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!
Greetings brother

Jews were God's chosen people, a chosen race, so true. Why did God choose the? He chose them to be an example to the rest of the world, God's people will be blessed, the world will see them as God's people, they will see the blessings and come to God also. But as we know this didn't happen, they were blessed when they followed God's commands, but had to be punished when they didn't. Sadly they kept falling into sin and had to be constantly punished.

The Jews became the most persecuted group of people in the world, punished by God and punished by the rest of the world. It is still very clear to see this in the world today. But let us never forget, God has not forgotten them, he proved this by the fulfilment of prophesy that the Jews, who were scattered all over the world, to save them, would return to Israel. The land of milk and honey became barren, but the Jews would return and the land will be restored. 15 May 1948 Israel was again declared a state.

Amos 9:14-15
“I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them.”

Isaiah 41:9
“You, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend, you whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from its remotest parts and said to you, ‘You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.”

Isaiah 43:5-6
Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth.”

Let us also never forget, Christians who are born again, are grafted into the root stock of the Jewish faith. Yes they are isolated in this world, but shouldn't be isolated from Christians grafted into the root stock.

Romans 10:12-13
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Anyone who separates Christian's from Jews, anyone who says the Old Testament is Jews, the New Testament is Jesus, this is the era of Grace, are going against scripture. There is No distinction between Jews and Gentiles, we were once aliens of Israel, strangers from the covenant, but we are now in Christ, grafted into their root stock.

This was where a lot of issues was created in the early church, the RCC saw Christians as superior to Jews, not part of the same root stock, the RCC Christians believed Jews had to convert to Christianity, that created friction, fighting, killing and hate for Jews. No wonder they were seen as an isolated race.

The clash between Paul and Peter, seems to carry with it a lot of misunderstanding. I prefer to read the following rather than a single verse.

Galatians 2:14-21 (NKJV)
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Why did Paul clash with Peter? They both saw things differently, but Paul saw the Unity of the Church threatened.

Peter's response was when he was challenged to live up to the truth of the Gospel: fear and failure.
Paul's response was when he saw the truth of the Gospel being diluted: courage and defence.

It came down to the topic of Saved by Grace vs The Law. These two items are important we all agree but, they should be looked at separately not together, when they are brought together, compared together conflict always arises, as it did with Peter and Paul.

We are Saved by Grace through Faith by coming to Jesus and the Cross, we all agree I am sure.

But, the Law is still applicable today, why? Because the Law reveals sin, the blood of Christ washes it away through faith and repentance.

Individually they both have different tasks, together they fulfil God's will for every believer, Jew or Gentile.

If sin isn't revealed how do we know what it is and what we should avoid and repent of?

Likewise the Jews were a chosen race, they still are. The Gentiles were lost souls in all the world, Jesus was the remedy, He joins together all who come to Him through Jesus, as scriptures says, IN ALL THINGS, Jews first then Gentiles, it is the same with the Bible God's Word, the OT first then the NT but both are woven together like a fine silk garment, it is the same with the Law and Grace, the Law came first to reveal sin, then came God's Grace, through Faith, through Jesus Christ, through the cross.

As the beginning is to the end, all these are the first and the last, separate items in themselves but made one through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Active
@KingJ -- go back to post #142 and then in the next post you brought Romans 14:5 into the discussion about purgatory. The other part of those comments pertained to 'can or cannot be reunited with God. And all of it was being tied together in the belief of purgatory and your listing all those verses -- which , by the way, didn't have anything to do with That subject -- which I also pointed out and you pretty much admitted were not really in That context.

So -- Yes I certainly Do read your posts -- but you were showing that you don't apply Scripture the way it's meant to be applied.

And, yes it Does matter what a person Does believe doctrinally. There are Some points that are a matter of where a person will end up spending eternity.

So -- is the RCC belief in purgatory based on Scripture? You tell Me -- based On Scripture used In Context In the Canon.
 
Active
@KingJ -- go back to post #142 and then in the next post you brought Romans 14:5 into the discussion about purgatory. The other part of those comments pertained to 'can or cannot be reunited with God. And all of it was being tied together in the belief of purgatory and your listing all those verses -- which , by the way, didn't have anything to do with That subject -- which I also pointed out and you pretty much admitted were not really in That context.
Pick which one of those verses you believe do not support a Catholic view of Purgatory and a purification process.

So -- Yes I certainly Do read your posts -- but you were showing that you don't apply Scripture the way it's meant to be applied.
More evidence you don't read before you reply. I do not believe in Purgatory. I gave you scripture that Catholics use to support it. I said, ''we'' read those scripture in a different context.

And, yes it Does matter what a person Does believe doctrinally. There are Some points that are a matter of where a person will end up spending eternity.
Correct theology and correct religion does not get you into heaven. You need to meditate on verses like 1 Cor 11:31, Phil 2:12, Matt 16:24 and Rom 14:5.

So -- is the RCC belief in purgatory based on Scripture? You tell Me -- based On Scripture used In Context In the Canon.
I can see how they arrive at the belief. It is no worse then how many arrive at an ''anti OSAS'' / non purification belief as I pointed out earlier. It is merely a Rom 14:5 disagreement.
 
Active
@KingJ --- go back to Post 143 and you'll see that I Did look up and quoted 3 of the verses you listed. And I did look up the others. You can look back and read my comments concerning them.

May I ask Why you wanted to do a thread about the RCC beliefs and if they're Biblical? You gave the impression of Being RCC and wanted to discuss why they Were Biblical.

And your comment that 'we' read those passages in a different context -- 'we' meaning Who ? 'we' RCC people? 'we' Non-RCC people? Who is your 'we' relating To?

Being Saved Does get a person to heaven. 1 Corinthians 15: 1-3 -- to be saved. And then Romans 10:9-10 Belief in a person's heart and Then confession to God. In the heart is where we believe unto righteousness.

The verses you Now share along with Romans 14;5 suggests that it's up to the individual person what they choose to impliment in their own lives for their own salvation. And THAT puts salvation in the compartment of being good-works based.
But it's Not -- based on Ephesians 2:8-9. For by grace you are saved, through faith, and Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So -- okay -- you can see how the RCC arrives at their belief in purgatory -- That I can go along with -- but that does Not mean that there Is a purgatory -- or that Abrahams' bosom -- the part that Non-believer are in - Is any kind of a purifying place that they are "'going through / spending time In"' in order to be ready for heaven when they stand before God at the great white throne judgement. Are you possibly suggesting that God will look at the good works they did while still alive and determine If their good works had been more than their bad -- that Now they can go to heaven?! Is That possibly where the RCC venial / mortal sins 'thing' come in? So -- from the RCC stand point? veneal sins will allow a person to be in heaven , but commiting Mortal sins will keep them out? But THAT would again - be a good-works based salvation.

Your next comment regarding OSAS -- an 'anti OSAS' // a non-purification belief ?! In other words No eternal security. Well -- according To God's Word -- a person Can know that they Are saved and will Stay saved -- based on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell the born - Again person at the moment Of their salvation. The Holy Spirit Won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. But I don't see how / Why you would connect That with a non-purification belief.

But That is Not a -- believe as you see fit To believe situation.

Salvation 'purifies' a person in God's eyes. He sees a person through the shed blood of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. Justification -- 'just as if a person had not sinned'. BUT a person needs to Accept that on his own. Each person needs to acknowledge his / her individual need For the blood of Christ as their Only way to be able to be in heaven. And thank God For that gift of His. Because it Is God's gift to us -- the Only way that 'we' can stay out of hell. It is God extending His grace Toward us. In that -while we were Sinners Christ died for us. God loved us That much.

Now No one Has to be willing To die in someone elses' place in order To be saved. And That is what some people do believe. But That would be suggesting that a person would need to have a good works Attitude for salvation. But that is Still Not placing their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ ONLY. It's our Heart's belief that matters.

And once all of That has been understood -- a person Will have an inner peace that Nothing can take away.

God wants us 'as we are -- inside and out' -- He makes the difference in our attitudes / actions.
 
Active
@KingJ -- just as correct doctrine / beliefs don't get a person Into heaven -- those incorrect believes / doctrines can keep us Out because 'we' are Not hearing the truth Of God's Word.
 
Active
May I ask Why you wanted to do a thread about the RCC beliefs and if they're Biblical?
You were making uninformed statements. Flaming the RCC over trivial issues.

You gave the impression of Being RCC and wanted to discuss why they Were Biblical.
Does someone who believes in the trinity also give you the impression that they are RCC? I believe in many RCC teachings. They are very biblical. Does not make me RCC.

And your comment that 'we' read those passages in a different context -- 'we' meaning Who ? 'we' RCC people? 'we' Non-RCC people? Who is your 'we' relating To?
All who don't believe in Purgatory. You and I.

Being Saved Does get a person to heaven. 1 Corinthians 15: 1-3 -- to be saved. And then Romans 10:9-10 Belief in a person's heart and Then confession to God. In the heart is where we believe unto righteousness.
Yes, agreed. We just need to interrogate that confession. Many claim to have faith, call Jesus Lord and work for God, but yet He does know them Matt 7:22.

The verses you Now share along with Romans 14;5 suggests that it's up to the individual person what they choose to impliment in their own lives for their own salvation. And THAT puts salvation in the compartment of being good-works based.
But it's Not -- based on Ephesians 2:8-9. For by grace you are saved, through faith, and Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Please read my belief here: What is a Christian?

So -- okay -- you can see how the RCC arrives at their belief in purgatory -- That I can go along with -- but that does Not mean that there Is a purgatory -- or that Abrahams' bosom -- the part that Non-believer are in - Is any kind of a purifying place that they are "'going through / spending time In"' in order to be ready for heaven when they stand before God at the great white throne judgement. Are you possibly suggesting that God will look at the good works they did while still alive and determine If their good works had been more than their bad -- that Now they can go to heaven?! Is That possibly where the RCC venial / mortal sins 'thing' come in? So -- from the RCC stand point? veneal sins will allow a person to be in heaven , but commiting Mortal sins will keep them out? But THAT would again - be a good-works based salvation.
Sue, I believe God will go to the ends of the earth to get someone into heaven. The lake of fire is eternal and God would need to be absolutely convinced that those He sends there are utterly sold out to darkness.

I am not going to attack in the slightest a belief like Purgatory. One that espouses a ''fuller'' examination of a person. I would sooner attack those who believe God cherry picks (Calvinism), God sends unlucky people to hell (those Christians who believe they are special because they are in the right religion, they are privileged to hear the truth) etc etc.

Your next comment regarding OSAS -- an 'anti OSAS' // a non-purification belief ?! In other words No eternal security. Well -- according To God's Word -- a person Can know that they Are saved and will Stay saved -- based on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell the born - Again person at the moment Of their salvation. The Holy Spirit Won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. But I don't see how / Why you would connect That with a non-purification belief.
You don't see why I would support a purification belief over a non-purification belief?

But That is Not a -- believe as you see fit To believe situation.

Salvation 'purifies' a person in God's eyes. He sees a person through the shed blood of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. Justification -- 'just as if a person had not sinned'. BUT a person needs to Accept that on his own. Each person needs to acknowledge his / her individual need For the blood of Christ as their Only way to be able to be in heaven. And thank God For that gift of His. Because it Is God's gift to us -- the Only way that 'we' can stay out of hell. It is God extending His grace Toward us. In that -while we were Sinners Christ died for us. God loved us That much.
Agreed.

Now No one Has to be willing To die in someone elses' place in order To be saved. And That is what some people do believe. But That would be suggesting that a person would need to have a good works Attitude for salvation. But that is Still Not placing their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ ONLY. It's our Heart's belief that matters.
What depth has our ''''heart''''' got if we cannot lay our lives down? Matt 16:24 is not negotiable. God expects more then us saying the words ''I love you and truly mean it from my heart''. Ok, prove it. A father that loves their child WILL die for them. A child that loves their father will die for them. Not suggesting God put us all through this. But I am suggesting that all those who make it to heaven be those whom if put through martyrdom, would pass.

God wants us 'as we are -- inside and out' -- He makes the difference in our attitudes / actions.
He does not change us unless we want Him to James 4:8. No, He does not want us as we are. He wants us to commit to Him as Matt 16:24 says.

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
 
Active
@KingJ -- those are Not trivial issues.

You might not call yourself an RCC -- but you pretty much are. You Are promoting their beliefs.

And then in your last paragraph you're saying that "but I am suggesting that all those who make it to heaven - be those whom - if put through martyrdom, would pass ----- I think That would depend on what beliefs they were dying For. How about the terrorists who are willing to die by strapping bombs to themselves and setting themselves in a crowd of innocent people to kill them. Or are willing to strap explosives to their children -- soldiers come up close to Them and die when the explosives go off. Are They passing inspection of God because They are willing to lay down Their lives for Their religious beliefs. Their 'love' for Allah -- in other words 'being willing to lay down our lives -- Matthew 16:24 reads "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." That verse is Not saying be willing to Die. The following verse is comparing saving his own life will loose it and loosing it for Me sake will find it" Who's the boss of your life -- you or God? There was a very talented guy who went to medical school -- had a chance for a nice -prestiges position in a great hospital in this country but to everyone's surprise went to medical missions instead. Treating people on the mission field was Finding his Real calling.
 
Loyal
@KingJ -- just as correct doctrine / beliefs don't get a person Into heaven -- those incorrect believes / doctrines can keep us Out because 'we' are Not hearing the truth Of God's Word
How wrong are we allowed to be? Are Jehovah witnesses, Mormons and Universalists good to go? Good doctrine e alone won't help us. But there are plenty of warnings about bad doctrine
 
Active
God's Word alone is to be our guideline -- This thread is focusing on the RCC beliefs and Bible. But the same can be applied to Any belief system. Who is Jesus Christ -- did He come into this world through a virgin -- did He die on the cross shedding His blood for our sins and did He rise again bodily from the dead. Yes, to all of those. According To Scripture. Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- not simply a good religious teacher of that time in history.

Various groups take Bible Plus the church fathers' Or writings from other people.

As born-again believers, we Are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. God Does have things He wants us to do for Him. But those are not Unto salvation they are the result Of our salvation.

Anything we hear we are to verify that they are Indeed correct teaching as per God's Word. Most of the time we Don't because we trust the pastor or S. S. teacher to be teaching God's Word. And when we read on our own -- we Do recognize correct teaching As well as that which is Off.

@KingJ -- Scripture says that even in our sin -- while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He Didn't say -- clean up your act 1st and Then I'll do what I can to save you. Jesus Christ went to hell and back up In Our Place.
In post 155 you agreed with what I was saying about salvation, but in realty you don't. You use the term 'purify / purified' in a different way -- you equate the hell part of Abraham's bosum as a time of purification. No one is purified in Haddes / hell / whatever title applies. It's where all non-believers go -- waiting in agony until the real agony starts After the great white throne judgement takes place. There Is a verse that seems to indicate that Jesus Christ Does present salvation to the people who died with out placing their faith in the coming messiah in the Old Testament -- that they are given One More Chance to accept what He did for them and Then He takes the people waiting in Paradise back up with Him.
You've commented that the RCC seems to have That right -- but they Don't because there's no such place. But that's already been discussed.
 
Active
@KingJ -- in that same post #155 -- you brought up belief in the trinity and the RCC believing it -- does that make a person an RCC person. And then -- that many of the RCC beliefs are Biblical. Well -- as has been pointed out -- they aren't. And that's not 'roasting' the RCC over the coals -- it's simply pointing out facts.

Is there anything More you'd like to discuss about the RCC?
 

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