Beliefs of RCC / Biblical?

[rstrats]

Sue D.,
Sorry, I thought you were making a general statement that was applying to all issues with regard to judgements. But I see you were referring to specific issues.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings again KingJ

I suppose what i meant was that of course you don't have a photo of Jesus or a picture. No body does.
So, using your example, while i understand the sentiment, it is both impossible and it does boil down to some imagined image that one would have to kiss or hug or whatever.


Bless you and your wife ....><>

It is all about our intentions. We believe the image of Jesus we have to be the correct picture. I don't see anything wrong with a cross or picture in remembrance of Him. He told us to break bread in remembrance of Him.

Kissing the picture and praying to the picture does get a bit odd. Agreed. Not something we should encourage or teach from the pulpit. But it is not ''terribly odd'' if I must be honest. At the time of Jesus people did want to touch Him for healing. This grievance with the RCC is a Rom 14:5 issue.

If we do likewise with anyone else, I am in full agreement with you and the second commandment.

 

[KingJ]

Dear brother, you are referring above to last minute salvation, they are still alive in this life. You are referring to near death encounters, at that point they are still alive in this life, there is chance for all to repent right up to the last breath, we pray for their salvation right up to the right breath, it is in God's hands the second they die the first death. The first death being the end of our earthly life.

I never mentioned anything about losing salvation, my reference is, a 'lost soul' can be saved right up to last breath, first death. But we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, we can but it is pointless.

I feel you are going off track. The only point I was making is that a belief in Purgatory is not 'madness'.

I believe in NDE's. I believe in last minute conversions. Many testimonies of this. Purgatory is a similarity. Except that with it they be physically dead.

 

[KingJ]

I do not see how you cannot see the difference.

To kiss a picture of your wife, that you love, is not worship.

Kneeling down, looking up and staring at a graven image of Jesus is worship. Our Saviour, our Lord, is sat at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven, we are not to create graven images. Jesus is in Heaven with the Father, He is not on the cross, He is resurrected, They the RCC are putting a graven image of Christ on the cross to help members worship, I have seen them knelt down, entranced at the graven image. Every RCC also has the graven image of Mary near a tomb.

These are unrelated examples (wife and Jesus). Neither of which are evil. I can kiss both pictures and not be guilty of sin. As explained to Br Bear in post # 122.

Lets say for a moment you miss the Rapture, you go through the Tribulation Period, into the Great Tribulation Period, a graven image is created of the Beast, you are to kneel down and worship him. You would choose to be a martyr and not kneel down and worship him, because you know he is the beast, but you say it is right to kneel down and worship Jesus on the Cross. They are both, or will be both, graven images.

Scripture tells us not to worship graven images.

You are making a good point. But there is a discussion to be had.

Graven images was mentioned as a second commandment because of the incident with the golden calf. Idol worship was always a pagan belief system. The ''thinking'' has always been false god idol worship. We must consider God's ''thinking'' behind the ten commandments. Something like murder for example is fine if it is in self defense, deserves a lessor punishment if in blind rage etc etc.

Now granted we must avoid all appearance of evil. Hence Protestants steer clear completely.

The RCC does not have a golden calf that they worship. Fact. Many RCC members do not see praying to statues of Mary and saints as evil idol worship. They would pray to a saint as they don't feel worthy to pray to Jesus / God.

As I have said before ''a cross'' is the center piece of a church. Granted some cathedrals were constructed because of relics they obtained. But even here, they are not to worship the relic.

All it is, is a belief that touching or connecting with something related to Jesus will make something happen / better the chances of being heard. It is not a mortal sin in my books. Intention is everything.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings KingJ,

thankyou for your reply.

It is all about our intentions. We believe the image of Jesus we have to be the correct picture. I don't see anything wrong with a cross or picture in remembrance of Him. He told us to break bread in remembrance of Him.

Kissing the picture and praying to the picture does get a bit odd. Agreed. Not something we should encourage or teach from the pulpit. But it is not ''terribly odd'' if I must be honest. At the time of Jesus people did want to touch Him for healing. This grievance with the RCC is a Rom 14:5 issue.

If we do likewise with anyone else, I am in full agreement with you and the second commandment.

One thing that i keep 'learning' is that our carnal old man wants to over-ride the spiritual man and then, with crafty deception, validate itself. I see this a bit in what you share here and by no means do i condemn you with my observation and i expect that no others here do likewise.... for he who has been forgiven much should never cast stones at another who is a fellow pilgrim.
Namely your comment about, "But it is not ''terribly odd'' if I must be honest."
the way i see that, if it were me saying that [and i openly admit i have said similar things before today] is that the flesh man is doing the "there's nothing wrong with that because it's a natural act of love and affection, which of course is an ok thing to do... etc etc" thing which actually goes against the way of the spiritual man, who we are in Christ. We could go on for a while on this but let me know if you understand or not [so, at least i know if i am making any sense to you] but otherwise we had better not sidetrack the thread too much.

My point however was more that you don't have a picture, as in an actual picture or photo, of Jesus Christ, so likening a picture of your wife, whom you love, to a similar scenario doesn't fit.

Regarding the RCC discussion, truth be told, most other denominations [and sects], apart from the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic branches of 'Christianity', are offsprings, or next of kin, to the RCC and a lot of what they do is man made and off the track in some department and practice or doctrine or another, which is sad but, also, to the one who really wants to follow Jesus, is a safeguard to not get entangled with their ways.
A lot of non-RCC folk might not like to admit it, but what they do is still tainted with the 'DNA' of the 'mother' church [the RCC].

Some of what i have read of what you say, is a mix of passion for God, Who is Love, and an attempt to justify a traditional 'church' organisation. Perhaps try to focus on one or the other and folks might be better served with the dish you propose for dinner?
It can get a little sticky when discussing the RCC because while there is quite blatant 'error', if it were not for the RCC. there is a fairly big possibility that we wouldn't have the volume of manuscripts and teaching today that we do have and certainly the earliest writings may well be missing for comparison sake, when and if new discoveries are made and old manuscripts are found.

The Children of Israel did not always reflect the holiness of God and even though they continued getting it very wrong, the Scripture was preserved through them, and, like it or not, a lot of folks don't mind consulting the Jewish take on life and Scripture, in order to get a better understanding of it all. So, what can we do?

A good place to start is to praise God that even though we men have blundered it for thousands of years, He is still the LORD Whose steadfast lovingkindness endures for ever... and this we know, because He lives and we know He lives because He has given us of His Spirit... so.... PRAISE THE LORD !!!


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

It is all about our intentions.

I'm sure that Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Muslim all have good intentions. Good intentions are not necessary "right" intentions.

They would pray to a saint as they don't feel worthy to pray to Jesus / God.

I agree, and I feel the RCC perpetuates this... purposely.
They make Jesus pretty inaccessible.... (for the most part)

Confess to a priest - Not Jesus
Pray to Mary - Not Jesus
The Pope is the head of the church - Not Jesus
Intercessory prayer is through dead saints - Not Jesus
Mary is our mediator to God - Not Jesus
Name our churches after Mary and saints - Not Jesus
Put statues of Mary up - Not Jesus (not that this should be done either, but it perpetuates a trend)
The immaculate conception is about Mary - Not Jesus
The church is who declares your sins forgiven - Not Jesus

heck... why do we even bother with Jesus... He really doesn't do anything for us. It seems Mary is doing all the real work here.
I'm a little surprised it wasn't Mary who died on the cross for us... the RCC believes she was sinless... surely she could have done it.

 

[KingJ]

I'm sure that Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Muslim all have good intentions. Good intentions are not necessary "right" intentions.

I agree, and I feel the RCC perpetuates this... purposely.
They make Jesus pretty inaccessible.... (for the most part)

Confess to a priest - Not Jesus
Pray to Mary - Not Jesus
The Pope is the head of the church - Not Jesus
Intercessory prayer is through dead saints - Not Jesus
Mary is our mediator to God - Not Jesus
Name our churches after Mary and saints - Not Jesus
Put statues of Mary up - Not Jesus (not that this should be done either, but it perpetuates a trend)
The immaculate conception is about Mary - Not Jesus
The church is who declares your sins forgiven - Not Jesus

heck... why do we even bother with Jesus... He really doesn't do anything for us. It seems Mary is doing all the real work here.
I'm a little surprised it wasn't Mary who died on the cross for us... the RCC believes she was sinless... surely she could have done it.

Not going to argue you on this. You are making a good point. When we consider it all as you have and not focus on one issue in isolation, we see a disturbing trend away from Jesus. I don't want to blur the topic of the RCC as this is an RCC thread. But were we to compile a list like this of some charismatic churches it would also look concerning. Each of us need to judge ourselves. The RCC is a Christian establishment. If you attend a meeting you leave having heard the gospel of Jesus.

I do disagree with your statement on intentions though. Intentions are key. 1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

We need to ask another question of JW's, Muslims and whoever else has 'good' intentions and that is....''Why has God not reached out to them and revealed Jesus?'' per 1 Cor 12:3. There is more then meets the eye. A deeper truth we cannot see. As Jer 17:9-11 says only God can see depths of minds and hearts. Their ''intentions'' are not so pure?

 

[KingJ]

Greetings KingJ,

thankyou for your reply.

One thing that i keep 'learning' is that our carnal old man wants to over-ride the spiritual man and then, with crafty deception, validate itself. I see this a bit in what you share here and by no means do i condemn you with my observation and i expect that no others here do likewise.... for he who has been forgiven much should never cast stones at another who is a fellow pilgrim.
Namely your comment about, "But it is not ''terribly odd'' if I must be honest."
the way i see that, if it were me saying that [and i openly admit i have said similar things before today] is that the flesh man is doing the "there's nothing wrong with that because it's a natural act of love and affection, which of course is an ok thing to do... etc etc" thing which actually goes against the way of the spiritual man, who we are in Christ. We could go on for a while on this but let me know if you understand or not [so, at least i know if i am making any sense to you] but otherwise we had better not sidetrack the thread too much.

I don't fully agree with you here. When I say it is not ''terribly odd'' I am announcing my judgement of the matter. As Paul says I must do in 1 Cor 2:15. Christians will one-day judge angels 1 Cor 6:3. We can judge matters on earth.

Regarding the RCC discussion, truth be told, most other denominations [and sects], apart from the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic branches of 'Christianity', are offsprings, or next of kin, to the RCC and a lot of what they do is man made and off the track in some department and practice or doctrine or another, which is sad but, also, to the one who really wants to follow Jesus, is a safeguard to not get entangled with their ways. A lot of non-RCC folk might not like to admit it, but what they do is still tainted with the 'DNA' of the 'mother' church [the RCC].

Some of what i have read of what you say, is a mix of passion for God, Who is Love, and an attempt to justify a traditional 'church' organisation. Perhaps try to focus on one or the other and folks might be better served with the dish you propose for dinner? It can get a little sticky when discussing the RCC because while there is quite blatant 'error', if it were not for the RCC. there is a fairly big possibility that we wouldn't have the volume of manuscripts and teaching today that we do have and certainly the earliest writings may well be missing for comparison sake, when and if new discoveries are made and old manuscripts are found.

The Children of Israel did not always reflect the holiness of God and even though they continued getting it very wrong, the Scripture was preserved through them, and, like it or not, a lot of folks don't mind consulting the Jewish take on life and Scripture, in order to get a better understanding of it all. So, what can we do?

A good place to start is to praise God that even though we men have blundered it for thousands of years, He is still the LORD Whose steadfast loving kindness endures for ever... and this we know, because He lives and we know He lives because He has given us of His Spirit... so.... PRAISE THE LORD !!!

Bless you ....><>

Yes, Amen. Well said.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I feel you are going off track. The only point I was making is that a belief in Purgatory is not 'madness'.

I believe in NDE's. I believe in last minute conversions. Many testimonies of this. Purgatory is a similarity. Except that with it they be physically dead.

I don't feel I am off track brother, maybe not clearly put or some misunderstanding.

I agree that last minute salvation is possible.

As I stated above...
a 'lost soul' can be saved right up to last breath, first death.

But I also stated that we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, some do.

A soul can be saved right up to last breath.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

What we believe matters. Our doctrine matters. Entire threads have been written here on TalkJesus about false Christs, false doctrines, false teachers, wolves among the sheep

Greetings @B-A-C

In full agreement brother.
It goes beyond doctrinal debates, such as tongues/no tongues.....to posting of heretic false belief systems.

This includes attempting to blend RCC with Christianity.
Nothing about the RCC is based on truth.

For us mods it can be tricky to find and deal with every single posting.
And often members will come in with sound scripture to show the truth.

Please do report posts of concern then they can be looked at by the mod team.

Blessings

 

[Sue D.]

Not going to argue you on this. You are making a good point. When we consider it all as you have and not focus on one issue in isolation, we see a disturbing trend away from Jesus. I don't want to blur the topic of the RCC as this is an RCC thread. But were we to compile a list like this of some charismatic churches it would also look concerning. Each of us need to judge ourselves. The RCC is a Christian establishment. If you attend a meeting you leave having heard the gospel of Jesus.

I do disagree with your statement on intentions though. Intentions are key. 1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

We need to ask another question of JW's, Muslims and whoever else has 'good' intentions and that is....''Why has God not reached out to them and revealed Jesus?'' per 1 Cor 12:3. There is more then meets the eye. A deeper truth we cannot see. As Jer 17:9-11 says only God can see depths of minds and hearts. Their ''intentions'' are not so pure?

God Has reached out to All belief systems. He's reached out in His Word. He tells us that Jesus Christ "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." That's pretty specific.

A person needs to accept that which God Has shared for Everyone. God's Word Alone -- not mixing in what various fathers of the faith have included. And that's what some groups Do -- they take God's Word + and it causes problems.
Or something that is rationalized as being 'not so bad' -- it's just a picture.

Or taking books that have been excluded for very good reasons and find reasons To include questionable beliefs that are presented in those books.

And I don't want to sound negative -- but as another poster has pointed out -- there are numerous beliefs held by RCC that are Not Scriptural.

There is but One mediator between mankind and God and that is the man Christ Jesus. God came to us in the form of Jesus Christ so that our sins Could be taken care of and so that Jesus Christ would be the only mediator needed.

 

[B-A-C]

Why has God not reached out to them and revealed Jesus?'' per 1 Cor 12:3.

1 Cor 12:3; Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

But they don't call Jesus Lord. At least not "THE LORD". JWs don't believe Jesus is God. He is mrely "a lord". Mormon's don't believe Jesus is "THE LORD" either.
He is just one god (small g) amongst many, in fact one day we will become a god just like him (according to Mormons).

Keep in mind both of these religions started out of Christianity. Both quote a lot of the Bible. Jesus was revealed to them, they didn't like that Jesus and made their own.

 

[KingJ]

1 Cor 12:3; Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

But they don't call Jesus Lord. At least not "THE LORD". JWs don't believe Jesus is God. He is mrely "a lord". Mormon's don't believe Jesus is "THE LORD" either.
He is just one god (small g) amongst many, in fact one day we will become a god just like him (according to Mormons).

Keep in mind both of these religions started out of Christianity. Both quote a lot of the Bible. Jesus was revealed to them, they didn't like that Jesus and made their own.

I think you missed my point. I am saying there is a reason they don't call Jesus Lord. It is because He has not yet seen Matt 16:24 type dedication to 'Him'.

Now the RCC does call Jesus Lord.

 

[KingJ]

I don't feel I am off track brother, maybe not clearly put or some misunderstanding.

I agree that last minute salvation is possible.

As I stated above...
a 'lost soul' can be saved right up to last breath, first death.

But I also stated that we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, some do.

A soul can be saved right up to last breath.

I am in full agreement with you. There is no ''making right our wrongs'' needed if Jesus washes us clean. God gives us three score and ten years. Our time to make our intentions known to Him is here on earth.

I have two issues to raise for you to consider. Better highlight what I am trying to say:

1. Purgatory is not as far fetched as those Christian brothers and sisters around us that teach they can ''lose'' their salvation.

God has judged them after examining heart and mind Jer 17:9-11, Jesus has utterly washed them clean of sin, free indeed John 8:36 and God will never test them beyond what they can endure 1 Cor 10:13. YET they still believe and teach that they can lose their salvation.

So there is a ''falling away'' AFTER accepting Jesus being taught. That to me is a worse belief then a ''returning to'' Jesus type belief as Purgatory is.

Yet, we do not flame those who teach this as much as we flame the RCC....

2. Children, mentally handicapped and many others that may die not being given equal and fair opportunity

God is impartial Acts 10:34. If He tested Adam and Eve with the devil He will do so with all. If someone had no chance of meeting Jesus due to sin all around, He brings change (like the flood). But what of those few still affected by such? Where the balance of good and evil in their lives is heavily lob-sided to evil.

I personally believe this is what the 1000 year millennium is for.

 

[KingJ]

God Has reached out to All belief systems. He's reached out in His Word. He tells us that Jesus Christ "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." That's pretty specific.

A person needs to accept that which God Has shared for Everyone. God's Word Alone -- not mixing in what various fathers of the faith have included. And that's what some groups Do -- they take God's Word + and it causes problems.
Or something that is rationalized as being 'not so bad' -- it's just a picture.

Or taking books that have been excluded for very good reasons and find reasons To include questionable beliefs that are presented in those books.

And I don't want to sound negative -- but as another poster has pointed out -- there are numerous beliefs held by RCC that are Not Scriptural.

There is but One mediator between mankind and God and that is the man Christ Jesus. God came to us in the form of Jesus Christ so that our sins Could be taken care of and so that Jesus Christ would be the only mediator needed.

Have you ever read the Maccabees?

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- regarding the Maccabees -- since it's not part of the Canon, I've never felt a need to. There are a bunch of books that were taken out of the Bible because they didn't meet certain standards.

I've been told that there's a lot of history in those books -- From My perspective -- the Old Testament has plenty of history already. And I also have heard that there was much going on in the inter testament time The years between the Old and New Testaments. Okay, fine. I'm not really a history buff. Is there something I should be informed about?

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am in full agreement with you. There is no ''making right our wrongs'' needed if Jesus washes us clean. God gives us three score and ten years. Our time to make our intentions known to Him is here on earth.

I have two issues to raise for you to consider. Better highlight what I am trying to say:

1. Purgatory is not as far fetched as those Christian brothers and sisters around us that teach they can ''lose'' their salvation.

God has judged them after examining heart and mind Jer 17:9-11, Jesus has utterly washed them clean of sin, free indeed John 8:36 and God will never test them beyond what they can endure 1 Cor 10:13. YET they still believe and teach that they can lose their salvation.

So there is a ''falling away'' AFTER accepting Jesus being taught. That to me is a worse belief then a ''returning to'' Jesus type belief as Purgatory is.

Yet, we do not flame those who teach this as much as we flame the RCC....

Dear brother, you mention purgatory, having a rough idea of the meaning, though not seeing it in scripture, I looked up the definition, it was as I thought...

Definition of purgatory: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven.

But then you quote...

Jeremiah 17:9-11 (NKJV)
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
11 "As a partridge that broods but does not hatch, So is he who gets riches, but not by right; It will leave him in the midst of his days, And at his end he will be a fool."

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NKJV)
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I do not see, in either of these scripture quotes the connection, yes, the heart is deceitful above all things, it can be exceedingly wicked, but the heart is in man, in the human being, this does not relate to an immediate state after death?

There are two types of people in the world, saved souls and lost souls.
Our life on earth, starts in the womb and we are accountable to God from first breath, to last breath.
Once we have died the first death one of two things happens.

1 - saved soul - body goes back to the dust of the earth, spirit and soul goes to heaven, Current Heaven, and remains with the Lord until he returns and makes all things new. We will be judged also but will be judged for what we have done for him whist alive on earth.

2 - lost soul - body goes back to dust of the earth Hades, spirit and soul goes to Shoel, and waits final judgement at the Great White Throne Judgement

To me, I see no connection between what the verses of scripture you quote and purgatory: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven.

To me purgatory seems to be a RCC idea, if there is scripture that clearly states 'the idea' I have not read it or picked up on it.

2. Children, mentally handicapped and many others that may die not being given equal and fair opportunity

God is impartial Acts 10:34. If He tested Adam and Eve with the devil He will do so with all. If someone had no chance of meeting Jesus due to sin all around, He brings change (like the flood). But what of those few still affected by such? Where the balance of good and evil in their lives is heavily lob-sided to evil.

I personally believe this is what the 1000 year millennium is for.

There are many examples we can add to try complicate the issue, or to cloud it, do to trying to apply human understanding. As they say a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I have seen many with illnesses and lack of true understanding in human terms. The world gives many medical terms to pigeon hole their illnesses etc. But this does not mean they are unreachable by God in this life. It is amazing how many wheelchair bound, unable to speak, have trouble understanding have a child like faith. Even a person in a coma is not unreachable by the Holy Spirit. There are many elderly who can get dementia, or other terrible disease of mind and/or body, it doesn't mean God cannot reach them. We dwell so much on saying with our lips, believing with our hearts, public commitment to God, baptism, etc. As able bodied people we are blessed to be able to read, learn and understand, but it doesn't mean a person with severe illness and/or mental illness cannot be saved. We pray in faith, our love for them is seen through our prayers and actions by God, Jesus intercedes our heart felt prayers, FAITH and prayers are all that is needed.

Our life ends when we die the first death, taking our last breath. God has given us chance to repent and accept Jesus, once we die our destiny is set in stone according to God's Holy Word.

We don't get a second chance after we die, we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, we can but it is pointless.

Bless you

 

[KingJ]

Dear brother, you mention purgatory, having a rough idea of the meaning, though not seeing it in scripture, I looked up the definition, it was as I thought...

Definition of purgatory: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven.

But then you quote...

Jeremiah 17:9-11 (NKJV)
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
11 "As a partridge that broods but does not hatch, So is he who gets riches, but not by right; It will leave him in the midst of his days, And at his end he will be a fool."

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NKJV)
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I do not see, in either of these scripture quotes the connection, yes, the heart is deceitful above all things, it can be exceedingly wicked, but the heart is in man, in the human being, this does not relate to an immediate state after death?

There are two types of people in the world, saved souls and lost souls.
Our life on earth, starts in the womb and we are accountable to God from first breath, to last breath.
Once we have died the first death one of two things happens.

1 - saved soul - body goes back to the dust of the earth, spirit and soul goes to heaven, Current Heaven, and remains with the Lord until he returns and makes all things new. We will be judged also but will be judged for what we have done for him whist alive on earth.

2 - lost soul - body goes back to dust of the earth Hades, spirit and soul goes to Shoel, and waits final judgement at the Great White Throne Judgement

To me, I see no connection between what the verses of scripture you quote and purgatory: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven.

To me purgatory seems to be a RCC idea, if there is scripture that clearly states 'the idea' I have not read it or picked up on it.




There are many examples we can add to try complicate the issue, or to cloud it, do to trying to apply human understanding. As they say a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I have seen many with illnesses and lack of true understanding in human terms. The world gives many medical terms to pigeon hole their illnesses etc. But this does not mean they are unreachable by God in this life. It is amazing how many wheelchair bound, unable to speak, have trouble understanding have a child like faith. Even a person in a coma is not unreachable by the Holy Spirit. There are many elderly who can get dementia, or other terrible disease of mind and/or body, it doesn't mean God cannot reach them. We dwell so much on saying with our lips, believing with our hearts, public commitment to God, baptism, etc. As able bodied people we are blessed to be able to read, learn and understand, but it doesn't mean a person with severe illness and/or mental illness cannot be saved. We pray in faith, our love for them is seen through our prayers and actions by God, Jesus intercedes our heart felt prayers, FAITH and prayers are all that is needed.

Our life ends when we die the first death, taking our last breath. God has given us chance to repent and accept Jesus, once we die our destiny is set in stone according to God's Holy Word.

We don't get a second chance after we die, we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, we can but it is pointless.

Bless you

I can't do this Brother Paul. This is now the second or third time I feel you have not actually read my post.

I do not agree with or believe or support from scripture the teaching of Purgatory.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- you wanted to start the discussion regarding the RCC. One of the strong beliefs is in purgatory. It has been based on one passage in one of the books in the Apocrapha.

 

[Sue D.]

And then I'd gotten into infant sprinkling. or tried to.