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What is a Christian?

Member
I think what he means is this: what Israel was to God in the Old Testament — a people he called His, now We(the Church) today are to God what Israel used to be to God, we can be called the true Israel of God, because now WE are His people.

Now, it has nothing to do with the physical, has nothing to do with being a Jew vs. a Gentile. Israel was a physical kingdom. But the kingdom of God, the new kingdom that Jesus came proclaiming, this is a spiritual kingdom. Jesus wanted to fill it with people of faith. He isn’t worried about physical things like nationalities or race. He simply wants to live among a people that will actually truly love him and obey him. Israel struggled with loving and obeying him despite him being physically manifest in the Sinai desert, and God wanted better, so he decided to make Faith the thing that was required to enter his kingdom.

Satan can do all he wants down here on earth to the physical kingdoms present, but a spiritual kingdom? Never before has happened, and neither does Satan have any power over it. That’s why it’s so important for us to want to enter into that kingdom.
Hi there!

It has MUCH to do with the physical. The prophets (over and over and over again) promise our inheritance in the PHYSICAL LAND.
Dt 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled, for example.
WE share in the PHYSICAL land inheritance (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Dt.30:1-8).

"He isn't worried about physical things like nationalities..."
To the contrary, Israel is a NATION before God forever (Jer.31:36). And WE are Israelites (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).
We are included in the SAME Israelites of the entire Bible, with the SAME prophetic future.

Jesus will return PHYSICALLY to set up a PHYSICAL kingdom, centered in Israel, as capitol of the world, with ALL nations servings us.
And any nation that opposes us will be destroyed.
We will be uniquely blessed above all other nations.
The nations will bring their treasure to us Israelites.
This is OUR future in the PHYSICAL earth in the future.
WE are fellow heirs in the land-inheritance.
Let's not forget the physical. It's our future and our hope and our eternal inheritance!
 
Member
I think what he means is this: what Israel was to God in the Old Testament — a people he called His, now We(the Church) today are to God what Israel used to be to God, we can be called the true Israel of God, because now WE are His people.

Now, it has nothing to do with the physical, has nothing to do with being a Jew vs. a Gentile. Israel was a physical kingdom. But the kingdom of God, the new kingdom that Jesus came proclaiming, this is a spiritual kingdom. Jesus wanted to fill it with people of faith. He isn’t worried about physical things like nationalities or race. He simply wants to live among a people that will actually truly love him and obey him. Israel struggled with loving and obeying him despite him being physically manifest in the Sinai desert, and God wanted better, so he decided to make Faith the thing that was required to enter his kingdom.

Satan can do all he wants down here on earth to the physical kingdoms present, but a spiritual kingdom? Never before has happened, and neither does Satan have any power over it. That’s why it’s so important for us to want to enter into that kingdom.
I want to put out there that I agree everything that you said
 
Member
Hi there!

The church (Gr. "ἐκκλησία") is ISRAEL (see "ἐκκλησία" in, for example, Ac.7:38 and Dt. 4:10 in reference to ISRAEL).
The olive tree (Rom.11) is ISRAEL (Jer.11:16). Thus, grafted-in Gentiles are included in ISRAEL.
Christians partake in the New Covenant. Thus, we are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).
Christians should obey all Torah (2Ti.3:16). Torah is for ISRAEL (Mal.4:4). Thus, Christians are ISRAELITES.
The land of Israel is promised to Israel. Christians share in that promise (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29). Thus, Christians are ISRAELITES.

These are all reasons why the RCC is wrong, by the way.

blessings...
If Israel is the tree that we are grafted into then who are the branches that we cast out? They are Israel.

No this tree is Jesus and the only "natural" branches that stayed were the ones who had faith in Jesus. Remember the parable of the vine? Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.
 
Member
If Israel is the tree that we are grafted into then who are the branches that we cast out? They are Israel.

No this tree is Jesus and the only "natural" branches that stayed were the ones who had faith in Jesus. Remember the parable of the vine? Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.
No. The "branches that we cast out" are the unfaithful descendants of Jacob.
Jer. 11 confirms that the olive tree is ISRAEL. Paul did not invent the metaphor; he got it from Jeremiah.

Sure, Jesus is the vine...and Jesus is an ISRAELITE vine...and we are included in that ISRAELITE vine....thus we are included as fellow Israelites!

After all, the New Covenant in ONLY between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

CHOOSE NOW!
1. You are an Israelite who partakes in the New Covenant (Heb.8:8).
2. You are NOT an Israelite (thus you do NOT partake in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL).

I choose #1!

blessings...
 
Member
No. The "branches that we cast out" are the unfaithful descendants of Jacob.
Jer. 11 confirms that the olive tree is ISRAEL. Paul did not invent the metaphor; he got it from Jeremiah.

Sure, Jesus is the vine...and Jesus is an ISRAELITE vine...and we are included in that ISRAELITE vine....thus we are included as fellow Israelites!

After all, the New Covenant in ONLY between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

CHOOSE NOW!
1. You are an Israelite who partakes in the New Covenant (Heb.8:8).
2. You are NOT an Israelite (thus you do NOT partake in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL).

I choose #1!

blessings...
Fine if you are an Israelite then which tribe are you? Would the rest of Israel recognize you as being one of them?

You want to be apart of some earthly kingdom and follow the Torah. You want to be so bound up in this temporal and physical world that you cannot see what is spiritual. I can't stop you. You have spent many long years studying with the philosophy of keeping the Torah so that you interpret that into everything that you read. Not knowing that the old covenant is veiled and we have a new covenant. You believe they are the same. Though one is the ministration of death written on stones.

Please though do not try to put my brothers and sisters back under bondage to the Law that they are unable to keep. I hope that they will not fall for it.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
If Israel is the tree that we are grafted into then who are the branches that we cast out? They are Israel.

No this tree is Jesus and the only "natural" branches that stayed were the ones who had faith in Jesus. Remember the parable of the vine? Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.
Greetings @A. Christian

I see your thinking my friend but that is not totally correct.

Yes, Jesus is the vine, we are the branches, this is perfectly true and what a wonderful way he had to describe how we are to abide in him as branches of the vine.

But we, gentiles, are by nature of the wild olive tree. The olive tree so important to the Jews, as were the olive groves, Jesus spent a lot of time in them.

So here we have a further explanation, we as a wild olive, are grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree.
No one grafts a wild branch into a cultivated tree, it is contrary to nature. But here we see this is the case so what is scripture telling us?

Jesus came to his own, the Jews, as a Jew himself, to correct their wrong thinking, but as we know, the Jews the chosen people, the cultivated olive tree, rejected him. So Jesus made salvation and God's Grace and Mercy available to the Gentiles, who were not of the cultivated olive tree, they/we being wild by nature. But by coming to God through Jesus, we can receive salvation through him, being grafted into (joined to) the true olive tree, the one cultivated by God for his people the Jews.

The two become one, Jews and Gentiles, ALL who repent and come to God through the Messiah, the Christ, can be saved, scripture confirms, there are no Jews, no gentiles, no male no female, we are all one in Christ.

In all things Jews first, then Gentiles scripture tells us, so we see this in the right order. The gentile is grafted into the cultivated stock, the lump, and thus fed by the sap from the roots of the cultivated lump. The Holy sap of the cultivated Olive is fed to the wild olive branches making us Holy too, and joining us to the original cultivated Holy lump.

Romans 11:13-23 (NKJV)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, (Jews) and you, (Gentile) being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God:
on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11:24-27 (NKJV)
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Who is Israel? Those grafted in to the lump, those natural and wild olive branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree.

Now as we move from the confirmation of the cultivated olive tree, and those grafted into it, we move to the NT, John 15.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches, God is the one that grafts us in or prunes us out. But it is the Holy sap of the lump, the Holy Root that feed us, Jesus said abide in me and I will abide in you, the sap flows freely providing we abide in the cultivated lump.

John 15:1-27 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
 
Member
The only distinction that I want to make is that this olive tree is a spiritual kingdom and not the physical kingdom of Israel. I mean of course we are God's chosen now grafted along with his natural chosen. But call it what you will the tree is spiritual.
 
Active
No. The "branches that we cast out" are the unfaithful descendants of Jacob.
Jer. 11 confirms that the olive tree is ISRAEL. Paul did not invent the metaphor; he got it from Jeremiah.

Sure, Jesus is the vine...and Jesus is an ISRAELITE vine...and we are included in that ISRAELITE vine....thus we are included as fellow Israelites!

After all, the New Covenant in ONLY between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

CHOOSE NOW!
1. You are an Israelite who partakes in the New Covenant (Heb.8:8).
2. You are NOT an Israelite (thus you do NOT partake in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL).

I choose #1!

blessings...

The passage you are referring to -- or that talks about "I am the true vine" is found in John 15: 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. he who abides in Me and I in Him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing".

Actually Jesus was a Jew.

vs 1 of chapter 15 says "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
 
Member
The passage you are referring to -- or that talks about "I am the true vine" is found in John 15: 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. he who abides in Me and I in Him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing".

Actually Jesus was a Jew.

vs 1 of chapter 15 says "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Apparently that guy was banned from this thread. So I don't think he will be continuing this discussion.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
The only distinction that I want to make is that this olive tree is a spiritual kingdom and not the physical kingdom of Israel. I mean of course we are God's chosen now grafted along with his natural chosen. But call it what you will the tree is spiritual.
So true my friend

And so is the vine in John 15

But it is relevant that Christians realise they are grafted into the cultivated rootstock, so many think Christians and the Jews are two different religions. This was a big problem with the Christians in the early years, the RCC thought they were superior, the Jews must become Christians, that is not what scripture says.

We as Christians, saved believers, are grafted into the lump, the Holy root.

Isaiah11:10
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

The term root of Jesse stands for the coming Messiah, who comes from the lump, the Holy Root. That we the wild olive is spiritually grafted into.

Bless you
 
Active
Does simply believing in Jesus make you a Christian?

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Are demons saved? Even they believe.

What makes someone a "Christian"?

Jesus spoke quite a bit about following Him. Is a Christian someone who "follows" Jesus? What does it mean to follow Him?

Matt 4:19; And He *said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."

How do we follow Jesus? What are some ways we can follow Jesus?
We are justified by Torah (Rom.2:13), works (Jas.2:24), and faith (Rom.5:1), TOGETHER.
Not works alone.
Not faith alone.
Not Torah alone.
But ALL TOGETHER.
These statements are heretical. Cherry picked and miss-read.

We are justified by faith alone.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Please meditate on ''if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain''. When anyone espouses justification by works they are mocking the cross and teaching that Christ died in vein.
 
Active
James 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Are demons saved? Even they believe.

What makes someone a "Christian"?

Jesus spoke quite a bit about following Him. Is a Christian someone who "follows" Jesus? What does it mean to follow Him?

Matt 4:19; And He *said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
What do demon's believe? God is one? God exists? These are unrelated to Christian faith.

James is speaking to those ''Christians'' in church who are ''not'' Christians. Those who think ''faith'' in.....God's existence, correct religion attendance or a ''Napoleon kind of faith'' Napoleon's Proof for the Divinity of Jesus that Jesus is Lord, gets one saved. He is exposing their true nature / challenging their Christianity when he mentions works.

Christian faith, saving faith is given by God Rom 12:3. It is a live link to God. It is God touching us. Christians hear from God John 10:27. Demons do not have this kind of faith. It is a real faith in a real relationship with God.

Paul alludes to it in 1 Cor 12:3 NOBODY can ''''call Jesus Lord'''', except by the Holy Spirit. Many can call ''Jesus Lord'', is Paul mad? There is a deep Christian truth here. A Christian does not ''think'' before they call Jesus Lord. They ''know'' He is Lord. They ''speak'' to Him in a ''live'' relationship from faith given. A faith ''NOT'' given to ''demons'' or the unsaved.

Think also of Peter. He was the disciple with the most ''faith''. The only one to walk on water. Yet he still needed this God given Christian faith of Jesus which he got from God in Matt 16:16-17.
 
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Active
What is a Christian?
A Christian is a new creation in Christ

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How does one become a saved Christian?

God makes us a Christian
. God saves us and washes us clean.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Who does God save?

The whomsoever John 3:16 draws near to Him / is after His heart / are prepared to lay their lives down for Him / able to truthfully repent of their sins.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me .
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart. These, O God, You will not despise.

How do we know if we are after His heart?

Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
John 14:5 If you love me, keep my commands.
2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

All scripture by Paul and James on works / instruction to not sin are warnings to those who do not properly examine themselves as per 2 Cor 13:5.

Consider how shocked Paul is in 1 Cor 5:1 that a person called himself a brother and yet continued in a sin that not even the gentiles would commit.

1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
 
Active
@KingJ -- How does one become a saved Christian? A Christian Is a Christ-follower as the result Of having accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Thus -- being 'saved' and being a Christ-follower are the same things.

So -- no one Becomes a 'saved Christian' -- either a person is Saved or they Aren't. Once a person Is saved -- Then they will be a Christian / a Christ-follower / a born-Again believer.

God does Not make anyone a Christian == He Has provided us with His gift Of salvation -- we either accept His gift or we reject it. The Holy Spirit Does convict us of our sin -- but 'we' still need to repent And acknowledge person need For a Savior. Then we accept His gift of salvation and we thank Him for it. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- belief in our heart and confession enables our salvation.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life"

Sorry -- but you are somewhat Misrepresenting Scriptural salvation. You are bringing in a works aspect that does Not belong to salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 " declare to you the gospel.... by which also you are saved..... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures."

Jesus Christ being the Son of God."

Romans 10:9-10 believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus -- believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 
Active
@KingJ -- How does one become a saved Christian? A Christian Is a Christ-follower as the result Of having accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Thus -- being 'saved' and being a Christ-follower are the same things.
Following Jesus is one of three instructions in Matt 16:24. So I would not say a Christian is ''just'' a Christ follower, no. We are independent beings with free will before and after salvation.

So -- no one Becomes a 'saved Christian' -- either a person is Saved or they Aren't. Once a person Is saved -- Then they will be a Christian / a Christ-follower / a born-Again believer.

God does Not make anyone a Christian == He Has provided us with His gift Of salvation -- we either accept His gift or we reject it. The Holy Spirit Does convict us of our sin -- but 'we' still need to repent And acknowledge person need For a Savior. Then we accept His gift of salvation and we thank Him for it. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- belief in our heart and confession enables our salvation.
Please quote me. You seem to have miss-read my post.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life"

Sorry -- but you are somewhat Misrepresenting Scriptural salvation. You are bringing in a works aspect that does Not belong to salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 " declare to you the gospel.... by which also you are saved..... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures."

Jesus Christ being the Son of God."

Romans 10:9-10 believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus -- believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Please quote me. You seem to have miss-read my post.
 
Active
@KingJ -- Matthew 16:24 "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." Jesus was talking to those who were already his disciples.

And, no , I don't miss-read your posts. You simply don't agree with what I'm sharing with you. Or maybe you could be a bit clearer in your questions / comments.

But you've Also commented that you agree with a lot of what the RCC believes/ teaches -- then you apparently are not agreeing with Scripture but are caught up in RCC concepts.
 

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