A lack of choice?

[Garee]

.

My response -
“I agree that God’s foreknowledge is perfect and that He is faithfully powerful—not just wise, but sovereign. And yes, Acts 17 reminds us that God is not served by human hands as though He needed anything. I also believe God can use anyone—even unbelievers—to accomplish His purposes, as we see with Cyrus in Isaiah. But I think it’s important to distinguish between God’s sovereign use of people and the personal relationship He calls us into through faith. Delivering the gospel isn’t just about being a vessel—it’s about being transformed by it.”

“How do you see the role of faith in those who carry the gospel? Is it purely functional, or does it reflect a deeper relationship with Christ?”

Thanks for the reply

The rule of Christ's powerful faith or labor of his love is demonstrated by the believer. The Creative law of faith or power. Let there be

The key is both works working as one. (One) hear his spiritual understanding, hearing (Two) strength to finish it with the good testimony what the eyes see the temporal.
Philippians 213 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Same both in the use of the food the disciples knew not of (eat by faith . . . .belief) no touching.

John 4:33-35Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them,(one) My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to (2) finish his work.

We miraculously can pray give us this day the bread the disciples knew not of .

In that way we can carry the gospel as beast of burden (Asses.)

Using a ceremonial law as a sign to the unbelieving world and not a sign unto themselves. They have prophecy it is shown in both verses in the parables below. Two times is the born again witness God not seen has spoken

No Lamb no salvation

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

Exodus 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

An Ass as an apostle a sent messenger that can plant the seed and another water it but God alone has the resurrection *raise again" power.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.;Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

 

[Kermos]

Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe. Predestination is not arbitrary; it’s based on God seeing who would accept His grace.

You provided only your words "Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe" without any supporting documentation; in fact, your definition is false because foreknowledge means "to know beforehand, i.e. foresee" (Strong's 4268 on BibleHub.com from Strong's Greek: 4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) on BibleHub.com) also relevant is the definition "Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence" (The Free Dictionary foreknowledge definition). You added a non-existent definition appendage to foreknowledge of "who would freely choose to believe", so your definition is not honest.

You publicly issued your "Like" of @B-A-C's opening statement for his opening post to this thread of "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), yet both of you have been dishonest.

Let's review the passage which contains mention of both God's foreknowledge and God's predestination.

Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul wrote:

​

for those whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers,​

(Romans 8:29)​

​

But, this is part of a greater passage, so here is Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul's comprehensive topic:

​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose, for those whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers, those, whom then He predestined, and these He called, and, whom He called, these also He justified. Whom, then, He justified, these also He glorified.​

(Romans 8:28, Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30, see also​

Romans 8:28-30)​

​

Your "Predestination is not arbitrary" clause is true, but your "it’s based on God seeing who would accept His grace" clause is untrue. No Holy Spirit inspired Scripture states that "Predestination is" "based on God seeing who would accept His grace".

A true statement is "predestination is a person being conformed to the image of Christ".

Another true statement is "God predestines a person to believe in God's Grace". Oh the unearned love that the Father has for us who believe in Christ! Praise Jesus!!!

God calls everyone! You are taking 2-3 scriptures and forming a belief system that terribly incriminates Him as partial.

Perhaps @Curtis will have something to write about this, but I observe that you discredit the value of 2-3 scriptures in addition to introducing free-will where free will does not exist in 13 scriptures.

How do you explain these scriptures?

1. 1 Tim 2:3-4 - This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God’s good pleasure is the core of the matter regarding God's desire in "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4) because the Holy Spirit makes clear "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

A free-will of man is absent from 1 Timothy 2:3-4, so you aren't being honest.

A first result of you injecting free-will in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is:

• God desires Martin to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Martin free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• God desires Lisa to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Lisa never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• Conclusion: the desire of God is so miserably pathetically incapably weak that people like Lisa go to hell thus overcoming and overriding God's desire according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

So your free-will failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 is that man decimates God's desires and man exalts man.

A second result of you injecting free-will in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is:

• God desires Jane to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jane free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• God desires Jack to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jack never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• Conclusion: Jack is saved because God desires Jack to be saved despite Jack never free-will choosing to be saved according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

So your free-will failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 is that the absence of man's free-will results in all men universally being saved without condition of belief.

The Lord God Almighty's desires are always satisfied! Praise be to God!!!

2. 2 Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise… but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Peter wrote this letter (epistle) specifically to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1); therefore, the "you", "any", and "all" inside of "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"
(2 Peter 3:9) applies exclusively to current believers in Christ and/or future believers in Christ until the day of Christ.

A free-will of man is absent from 2 Peter 3:9, so you aren't being honest.

3. Eze 33:11 - I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

Holy Spirit inspired Prophet Ezekiel wrote more than "Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’"
(Ezekiel 33:11) which you even truncated at the word "live" thus you eliminated "Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’" in which God doesn't ask "why then will you live". When Ezekiel 33:1-20 is read in context, then God describes watchmen, reward, and punishment as well as evil man's self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) drive to destruction and crucially Sovereign God's justice "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways" (Ezekiel 33:20).

A free-will of man is absent from Ezekiel 33:11, so you aren't being honest.

4. Isa 55:11 - Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters

Holy Spirit inspired Prophet Isaiah wrote "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it"
(Isaiah 55:11) in which the Word of God clearly indicates "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16) and "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

A free-will of man is absent from Isaiah 55:11, so you aren't being honest.

P.S. your citation does not match the corresponding text; nonetheless, the command recorded in Isaiah 55:1 does not convey free-will ability to choose toward God.

5. Matt 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

Lord Jesus says "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14), and Christ provides an example of one not chosen to be covered by the Blood of Christ with "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’" (Matthew 22:11-13).

A free-will of man is absent from Matthew 22:14, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.

6. John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

The wonderful Word of God "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32), and it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” (Romans 14:11).

When Christ says I will draw, then we Christians hear Him saying that He does the work with no mention of us doing anything. We think of "drawing water from a well".

A free-will of man is absent from John 12:32, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.

7. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

Many of the concepts expressed throughout this response to you are interchangeable, so what is said about one passage may also be said about another passage of similar concept.

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Yahweh has made even both of them (Proverbs 20:12), and this applies to The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost (Revelation 22:17).

A free-will of man is absent from Revelation 22:17, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.

8. 1 John 2:2 - “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I do enjoy this blessed writing of John the Apostle "He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

@KingJ, do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Beware how you answer because John wrote in the same book "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) in the same book as 1 John 2:2.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) in the same book as 1 John 2:2, and John uses the "you" to refer to us Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

A free-will of man is absent from 1 John 2:2, so you aren't being honest.

9. 2 Cor 5:14-15 - .One has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves..

WOW, you omitted the Sovereignty of God explained in the beginning of verse 14 in what appears to be a deliberate attempt to exalt man above God, so here is the passage "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

Dead men raised by God unto man alive in Christ are distinctly identified, but free-will for man does not exist in the passage which you quoted as support for unscriptural free-will.

A free-will of man is absent from 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, so you aren't being honest.

10. Heb 2:9 - so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

The implication of your "Predestination is" "based on God seeing who would accept His grace" free-will folly is on the left side while the righteous revelation of the Holy Spirit is on the right side:

Free-willian Philosophy		Holy Scripture
so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone who free-will chooses the grace of God (KingJ 2:9).		But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren (Hebrews 2:9-11).

WOW, WOW, you omitted the Sovereignty of God in a manner like you did with 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

A free-will of man is absent from Hebrews 2:9, so you aren't being honest.

11.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

Christ's Use Of The Word "World" In John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)​

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

​

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life​

"​

(John 3:14-16).​

​

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" John 3:14), so here is the contextually linked passage about history:

​

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).​

​

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14) and the results of the "bronze serpent" that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strong's 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous connotation of "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

A free-will of man is absent from John 3:16, so you aren't being honest.

12. Rom 10:13 - For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The Apostle Paul predicates everyone who calls (Romans 10:13) on such people believing (see Romans 10:11 and Romans 10:14), and the Word of God makes abundantly clear “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so Lord Jesus Christ lovingly causes us Christians to call on the name of the Lord!

A free-will of man is absent from Romans 10:13, so you aren't being honest.

13. Acts 17:30 - God… now commands all people everywhere to repent.

A command does not convey ability.

A person's successful completion of the command shows fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); in contrast, a person's failure to execute the command shows a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

The Word of God reveals that repentance within people is controlled by God with “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

A free-will of man is absent from Acts 17:30, so you aren't being honest.

Grace was given “in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, not to specific individuals before the world began!

Eph 1:4 - He chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

It's not that God picked specific people to save regardless of their response, but that He chose to save all who are in Christ.

The Sovereign God picked specific individuals to save from the wrath of God based upon God’s love of each and every one of God's chosen people for "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love" (Ephesians 1:4) - every person who is part of the us and we is individually chosen by the Holy Lord God Almighty!

Love,
Kermos

 

[KingJ]

You provided only your words "Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe" without any supporting documentation; in fact, your definition is false because foreknowledge means "to know beforehand, i.e. foresee" (Strong's 4268 on BibleHub.com from Strong's Greek: 4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) on BibleHub.com) also relevant is the definition "Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence" (The Free Dictionary foreknowledge definition). You added a non-existent definition appendage to foreknowledge of "who would freely choose to believe", so your definition is not honest.

You publicly issued your "Like" of @B-A-C's opening statement for his opening post to this thread of "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), yet both of you have been dishonest.

Let's review the passage which contains mention of both God's foreknowledge and God's predestination.

Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul wrote:

​

for those whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers,​

(Romans 8:29)​

​

But, this is part of a greater passage, so here is Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul's comprehensive topic:

​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose, for those whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers, those, whom then He predestined, and these He called, and, whom He called, these also He justified. Whom, then, He justified, these also He glorified.​

(Romans 8:28, Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30, see also​

Romans 8:28-30)​

​

Your "Predestination is not arbitrary" clause is true, but your "it’s based on God seeing who would accept His grace" clause is untrue. No Holy Spirit inspired Scripture states that "Predestination is" "based on God seeing who would accept His grace".

A true statement is "predestination is a person being conformed to the image of Christ".

Another true statement is "God predestines a person to believe in God's Grace". Oh the unearned love that the Father has for us who believe in Christ! Praise Jesus!!!



Perhaps @Curtis will have something to write about this, but I observe that you discredit the value of 2-3 scriptures in addition to introducing free-will where free will does not exist in 13 scriptures.



God’s good pleasure is the core of the matter regarding God's desire in "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4) because the Holy Spirit makes clear "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

A free-will of man is absent from 1 Timothy 2:3-4, so you aren't being honest.

A first result of you injecting free-will in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is:

• God desires Martin to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Martin free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• God desires Lisa to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Lisa never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• Conclusion: the desire of God is so miserably pathetically incapably weak that people like Lisa go to hell thus overcoming and overriding God's desire according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

So your free-will failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 is that man decimates God's desires and man exalts man.

A second result of you injecting free-will in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is:

• God desires Jane to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jane free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• God desires Jack to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jack never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• Conclusion: Jack is saved because God desires Jack to be saved despite Jack never free-will choosing to be saved according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

So your free-will failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 is that the absence of man's free-will results in all men universally being saved without condition of belief.

The Lord God Almighty's desires are always satisfied! Praise be to God!!!



Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Peter wrote this letter (epistle) specifically to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1); therefore, the "you", "any", and "all" inside of "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"
(2 Peter 3:9) applies exclusively to current believers in Christ and/or future believers in Christ until the day of Christ.

A free-will of man is absent from 2 Peter 3:9, so you aren't being honest.



Holy Spirit inspired Prophet Ezekiel wrote more than "Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’"
(Ezekiel 33:11) which you even truncated at the word "live" thus you eliminated "Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’" in which God doesn't ask "why then will you live". When Ezekiel 33:1-20 is read in context, then God describes watchmen, reward, and punishment as well as evil man's self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) drive to destruction and crucially Sovereign God's justice "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways" (Ezekiel 33:20).

A free-will of man is absent from Ezekiel 33:11, so you aren't being honest.



Holy Spirit inspired Prophet Isaiah wrote "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it"
(Isaiah 55:11) in which the Word of God clearly indicates "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16) and "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

A free-will of man is absent from Isaiah 55:11, so you aren't being honest.

P.S. your citation does not match the corresponding text; nonetheless, the command recorded in Isaiah 55:1 does not convey free-will ability to choose toward God.



Lord Jesus says "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14), and Christ provides an example of one not chosen to be covered by the Blood of Christ with "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’" (Matthew 22:11-13).

A free-will of man is absent from Matthew 22:14, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.



The wonderful Word of God "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32), and it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” (Romans 14:11).

When Christ says I will draw, then we Christians hear Him saying that He does the work with no mention of us doing anything. We think of "drawing water from a well".

A free-will of man is absent from John 12:32, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.



Many of the concepts expressed throughout this response to you are interchangeable, so what is said about one passage may also be said about another passage of similar concept.

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Yahweh has made even both of them (Proverbs 20:12), and this applies to The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost (Revelation 22:17).

A free-will of man is absent from Revelation 22:17, so you aren't being honest and you implicitly added free-will to the Word of God.



I do enjoy this blessed writing of John the Apostle "He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

@KingJ, do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Beware how you answer because John wrote in the same book "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) in the same book as 1 John 2:2.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) in the same book as 1 John 2:2, and John uses the "you" to refer to us Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

A free-will of man is absent from 1 John 2:2, so you aren't being honest.



WOW, you omitted the Sovereignty of God explained in the beginning of verse 14 in what appears to be a deliberate attempt to exalt man above God, so here is the passage "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

Dead men raised by God unto man alive in Christ are distinctly identified, but free-will for man does not exist in the passage which you quoted as support for unscriptural free-will.

A free-will of man is absent from 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, so you aren't being honest.




The implication of your "Predestination is" "based on God seeing who would accept His grace" free-will folly is on the left side while the righteous revelation of the Holy Spirit is on the right side:

Free-willian Philosophy		Holy Scripture
so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone who free-will chooses the grace of God (KingJ 2:9).		But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren (Hebrews 2:9-11).

WOW, WOW, you omitted the Sovereignty of God in a manner like you did with 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

A free-will of man is absent from Hebrews 2:9, so you aren't being honest.

Christ's Use Of The Word "World" In John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)​

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

​

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life​

"​

(John 3:14-16).​

​

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" John 3:14), so here is the contextually linked passage about history:

​

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).​

​

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14) and the results of the "bronze serpent" that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strong's 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous connotation of "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

A free-will of man is absent from John 3:16, so you aren't being honest.



The Apostle Paul predicates everyone who calls (Romans 10:13) on such people believing (see Romans 10:11 and Romans 10:14), and the Word of God makes abundantly clear “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so Lord Jesus Christ lovingly causes us Christians to call on the name of the Lord!

A free-will of man is absent from Romans 10:13, so you aren't being honest.



A command does not convey ability.

A person's successful completion of the command shows fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); in contrast, a person's failure to execute the command shows a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

The Word of God reveals that repentance within people is controlled by God with “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

A free-will of man is absent from Acts 17:30, so you aren't being honest.



The Sovereign God picked specific individuals to save from the wrath of God based upon God’s love of each and every one of God's chosen people for "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love" (Ephesians 1:4) - every person who is part of the us and we is individually chosen by the Holy Lord God Almighty!

Love,
Kermos

Your explanations are mostly illogical, but kudo's to you for effort.

Before I join this dance you want to have, rewind a bit and deal with the elephant in the room.

Explain either:

A. How unconditional election type predestination is not partiality? or

B. How partiality is a good thing and not pure 10/10 evil.

Scripture is crystal clear that God is impartial Acts10:34, good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. Non arbitrary predestination for salvation and impartiality are mutually exclusive.

As such Calvinists teach that God is evil and unjust. Explain to me how with your belief He is not. As explained here:

Post in thread 'False Teaching - Calvinism'

Jul 23, 2025

Does God know everyone who will be saved before they are born? Absolutely yes!!
Does that mean man has no free will to choose life or death! Absolutely no!
Is man responsible for his own free will choices? Yes!
Can a man come to Jesus if he has never heard or been taught of God? No way!
Who is the one who first initiates contact with God. God himself!
What is man’s responsibilities? Man is to respond to God using his God given free will choice.
Does God know every choice you make before you make them? Yes!
Does God know every word that will come out of your mouth before you speak? Yes!,

• Curtis

• 

 

[Bill]

W


This is what I take away you are saying here,

1. God’s foreknowledge is affirmed—He knows who will be saved before time began.
2. They shift the focus from God being “smart” to being faithfully powerful—emphasizing divine faithfulness over intellect.
3. They link this to creation language (“Let there be”)—suggesting God’s power is in His word and will.
4. They assert that God is not served by human hands, referencing Acts 17:25.
5. They claim God can use unbelievers to deliver the gospel, just as easily as believers.

My response -
“I agree that God’s foreknowledge is perfect and that He is faithfully powerful—not just wise, but sovereign. And yes, Acts 17 reminds us that God is not served by human hands as though He needed anything. I also believe God can use anyone—even unbelievers—to accomplish His purposes, as we see with Cyrus in Isaiah. But I think it’s important to distinguish between God’s sovereign use of people and the personal relationship He calls us into through faith. Delivering the gospel isn’t just about being a vessel—it’s about being transformed by it.”

“How do you see the role of faith in those who carry the gospel? Is it purely functional, or does it reflect a deeper relationship with Christ?”

While Acts 17:25 says:


—this verse is emphasizing that God is self-sufficient, not that He is never served by human hands. In fact, Scripture is full of examples where God is served through human action, and He commands it.

---

Biblical Examples of God Being Served by Human Hands​

Here are just a few:

1.​

• Leviticus 8–10: Priests serve God by offering sacrifices, maintaining the altar, and performing rituals.
• Hebrews 10:11: “Every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices…”

2.​

• Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and others served God by delivering His word and performing His will.
• Jeremiah 7:25: “I have sent to you all My servants the prophets…”

3.​

• Acts 6:4: “But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.”
• Romans 12:1: Paul urges believers to present their bodies as a living sacrifice, which is their reasonable service.

4.​

• John 13: Jesus washes the disciples’ feet — a physical act of service.
• Philippians 2:7: He “took upon Him the form of a servant…”

---

Theological Balance​

• God doesn’t need human service, but He chooses to work through it.
• Human hands serve God when they obey His commands, minister to others, and glorify Him.
• The idea that God can use unbelievers is true (e.g., Cyrus in Isaiah 45), but that doesn’t negate the value and calling of faithful service.

Excellent - best i have seen in a long while

 

[Kermos]

Your explanations are mostly illogical, but kudo's to you for effort.

Before I join this dance you want to have, rewind a bit and deal with the elephant in the room.

Explain either:

A. How unconditional election type predestination is not partiality? or

B. How partiality is a good thing and not pure 10/10 evil.

Scripture is crystal clear that God is impartial Acts10:34, good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. Non arbitrary predestination for salvation and impartiality are mutually exclusive.

As such Calvinists teach that God is evil and unjust. Explain to me how with your belief He is not. As explained here:

Post in thread 'False Teaching - Calvinism'

Jul 23, 2025

Does God know everyone who will be saved before they are born? Absolutely yes!!
Does that mean man has no free will to choose life or death! Absolutely no!
Is man responsible for his own free will choices? Yes!
Can a man come to Jesus if he has never heard or been taught of God? No way!
Who is the one who first initiates contact with God. God himself!
What is man’s responsibilities? Man is to respond to God using his God given free will choice.
Does God know every choice you make before you make them? Yes!
Does God know every word that will come out of your mouth before you speak? Yes!,

• Curtis

• 

Hello KingJ,

You asked me a question previously to which God caused me to address in post #53, yet you neglected to answer the single question asked of you in post #62 to which you replied, but now you ask several more questions which are addressed here. We shall see if you have the courtesy to answer in a timely manner that single question contained in post #62 to which you replied.

As detailed in post #53, man's salvation is conditional based upon God's choice, but you are imposing your fabricated argument of unconditional election in an effort to have me explain your fabricated argument. The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

God's choice is impartial and precise for God knows beforehand who among men are justified in God's sight (Romans 8:28-30), after all, Almighty God is the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11 who loves justice (Isaiah 61:8!

The justified person has salvation, but the unjustified person has damnation (John 5:29).

I previously proclaimed the Word of God to you that at all times God alone is good (Mark 10:18) in post #27, so your citation of Psalm 136:1 has already been covered.

Your opening "Your explanations are mostly illogical" lacks evidence so it is without merit, unlike the Spiritually Truthful response to your erroneous free-willian philosophy exposed regarding 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 33:11, Isaiah 55:11 and Isaiah 55:1, Matthew 22:14, John 12:32, Revelation 22:17, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Hebrews 2:9, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, and Acts 17:30.

The conclusion of your post is meaningless because I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian because of my Lord and God Jesus Christ.

If you want to explain what you mean by unconditional election then do explain, but please answer the single question to you in post #62 to which you replied.

Love,
Kermos

 

[B-A-C]

The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I wonder sometimes.... Jesus chose the twelve. It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve.
He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve. Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world?

Even though He did choose the twelve, He knew one of them was a devil. Why would Jesus chose a devil?

John 6:70-71 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so.

“Jesus choosing the twelve wasn’t about salvation—it was about ministry. Judas was chosen to fulfill a role, not to be saved. If anything, his betrayal shows that being chosen doesn’t override free will. He still made a choice, and Jesus’ foreknowledge didn’t force that decision.”

 

[KingJ]

Hello KingJ,

You asked me a question previously to which God caused me to address in post #53, yet you neglected to answer the single question asked of you in post #62 to which you replied,

@KingJ, do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Before salvation, yes, 100%. After salvation, you need to do the 'preaching'.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation''.

-----------------------

I have been mistaken by a few for being a Calvinist as I believe that once you are gifted salvation you cannot lose it (OSAS). Calvinists go the extra mile and teach unconditional election / being chosen before you decide to repent and serve.

 

[KingJ]

but now you ask several more questions which are addressed here. We shall see if you have the courtesy to answer in a timely manner that single question contained in post #62 to which you replied.

As detailed in post #53, man's salvation is conditional based upon God's choice, but you are imposing your fabricated argument of unconditional election in an effort to have me explain your fabricated argument. The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I have to first try understand what you actually believe. Your replies sound Calvinistic. Discussion with Calvinists is mostly a waste of time as scripture is read with glasses that allow them to only see certain lines in isolation.

God's choice is impartial and precise for God knows beforehand who among men are justified in God's sight (Romans 8:28-30), after all, Almighty God is the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11 who loves justice (Isaiah 61:8!

You are making contradictory statements here. Surely you can see that?

You state that God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice.

How can you love justice if you are impartial?

The justified person has salvation, but the unjustified person has damnation (John 5:29).

Agreed.

I previously proclaimed the Word of God to you that at all times God alone is good (Mark 10:18) in post #27, so your citation of Psalm 136:1 has already been covered.

Great.

Your opening "Your explanations are mostly illogical" lacks evidence so it is without merit, unlike the Spiritually Truthful response to your erroneous free-willian philosophy exposed regarding 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 33:11, Isaiah 55:11 and Isaiah 55:1, Matthew 22:14, John 12:32, Revelation 22:17, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Hebrews 2:9, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, and Acts 17:30.

I read enough to prompt me to ask you the question I did in post #63.

If you are not Calvinist, sure, I will take another stab at reading your posts. It seemed like more Calvinistic drivel.

The conclusion of your post is meaningless because I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian because of my Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Then why do you make Calvinistic arguments?

You put so much effort into bastardising 13 very simple and clear ANTI Calvinistic scriptures in your post # 62.

If you want to explain what you mean by unconditional election then do explain, but please answer the single question to you in post #62 to which you replied.

It is the U in TULIP.

Unconditional Election:

Calvinists believe that God, from eternity, has chosen certain individuals for salvation, and this choice is not contingent on anything those individuals might do or be.

Contrast with Arminianism:

Arminianism, a different theological perspective, suggests that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of who will accept Christ through faith. Calvinism, however, asserts that God's choice is prior to and independent of any human response.

 

[Kermos]

I wonder sometimes.... Jesus chose the twelve. It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve.
He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve. Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world?

Even though He did choose the twelve, He knew one of them was a devil. Why would Jesus chose a devil?

John 6:70-71 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so.

“Jesus choosing the twelve wasn’t about salvation—it was about ministry. Judas was chosen to fulfill a role, not to be saved. If anything, his betrayal shows that being chosen doesn’t override free will. He still made a choice, and Jesus’ foreknowledge didn’t force that decision.”

Post in thread 'A lack of choice?'

Jul 24, 2025

The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I wonder sometimes.... Jesus chose the twelve. It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve.
He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve. Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world?

Even though He did choose the twelve, He knew one of them was a devil. Why would Jesus chose a devil?

John 6:70-71 (KJV)
Jesus answered them...

• B-A-C

Hello @B-A-C,

You continue to neglect to reply to post #27 which systematically details your dishonest assertions of your original post, but, now, you reply to a post, which was not to you, with additional dishonesty. Recall, your opening post of this thread opens with "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), so don't lose sight of your own writing, @B-A-C, as you read this post detailing your dishonesty.

The first incidence of your dishonesty resides in your saying "So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so." flat out calls Jesus a liar because Christ promises me "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). I, a sheep owned by the Good Shepherd (John 10:27 and (John 10:14), reject your saying, @B-A-C!

Essentially, you excluded everyone from being the audience except the 12 Apostles inclusively from Christ's words recorded in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let us behold the audience of Lord Jesus Christ saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The second incidence of your dishonesty resides in your 'It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve. He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve' because at the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Judas Iscariot previously departed (John 13:21-30), so that leaves eleven apostles, not your "the twelve", but truly the eleven, so you are not honest with your inclusion of Judas Iscariot inside of Lord Jesus Christ's blessing of salvation with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The third incidence of your dishonesty resides in your 'It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve. He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve' because at the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias (Acts 1:21-23) were also present, not only your constraint of "the twelve", but truly a minimum of thirteen (13) persons besides Jesus are contextually established, so more than your "the twelve" are the audience.

The fourth incidence of your dishonesty resides in the Truth (John 14:6) that at the time Jesus bestows these blessings recorded in John 15:15-19 to all believers in all time the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (JOHN 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in (Mark 13:1-37). including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) applies to every single believer in Christ in all time; therefore, your "Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world" in conjunction with your "Jesus choosing the twelve wasn’t about salvation" was not honest on your part because you included "the entire world" yet the Word of God excluded "the world" when He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Dwell on the Lord Jesus Christ's words "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words" (John 14:23-24).

A QUESTION FOR YOU, @B-A-C.

Do you think that Jesus Christ calls you friend?

Before you answer, read this:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16)​

​

Love,
Kermos

 

[KingJ]

Essentially, you excluded everyone from being the audience except the 12 Apostles inclusively from Christ's words recorded in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let us behold the audience of Lord Jesus Christ saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

@B-A-C is not guilty of dishonesty. You are the one trying to defend Calvinism and as such make the extra effort to include a verse with a particular word that you want all to overly read into, ''the world''.

Stop accusing others here and deal with the question / accusation of your belief in post # 63.

This site does not support Calvinism. Most here teach scripture from the position of God being good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. You are not doing that. You are trying to push a message that incriminates Him. Suggests He is a monster that sits atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. Your posts are painting God as partial and unjust.

 

[KingJ]

*EDIT

God's choice is impartial and precise for God knows beforehand who among men are justified in God's sight (Romans 8:28-30), after all, Almighty God is the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11 who loves justice (Isaiah 61:8!

You are making contradictory statements here. Surely you can see that?

You state that God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice.

How can you love justice if you are partial?

 

[B-A-C]

Now, B-A-C, you wrote "An honest discussion on free-will", but you wrote "Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" for your next 3 quotations in Exodus chapters 8, 9, and 10, but chronologically prior to your first quotation which is Exodus 8:15, we find:
I will harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7:3 (NASB1995))Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.(Exodus 7:13 (NASB1995))

Do you think it's interestiing that God hardened Pharaoh's heart over and over again...

Exod 3:20 "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.

...but in the end...Pharaoh still let them go.

Before Exod 7:3, we see verses like...

Exod 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

First, I would say this is a future tense verse.. not "I already have hardened".. but rather "in the future, I will harden"...
But we have a conflict between 3:20 and 4:21... one says "he will let you go" the other says "so that he will not let you go".
So then which is it? If God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let the Jews go... why did he eventually let them go?

Exod 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Let My people go that they may celebrate a feast to Me in the wilderness.'"
Exod 5:2 But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go."

No mention of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in this conversation. But yet Pharaoh already had his mind made up before God hardened his heart. But we eventually get to..

Exod 7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

But this certainly after Pharaoh refused to let the Jews go.. back in chapter 5, so which happened first?
Even so.. "I will" (at sometime in the future).. is the not the same things as "I already have".

Exod 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is stubborn; he refuses to let the people go.

We could possibly take Exod 7:3 and apply it to Exod 7:13... but the problem is... It doesn't specifically say God hardened Pharaoh's heart in 7:13. That would we adding speculation to scripture.. extrapolation.

Exod 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

We are back to Pharaoh hardened his own heart here. Not God.. in fact we have no verse that specifically says God hardened Pharaoh's heart yet.

Exod 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exod 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

Once again.. Pharaoh did it.. not God.

Exod 9:7 Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Again.. no mention that God did this. But finally...

Exod 9:12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

This is the first scripture that specifically says God hardened Pharaohs heart in chronological context.

 

[B-A-C]

ssentially, you excluded everyone from being the audience except the 12 Apostles inclusively from Christ's words recorded in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

This is a great idea... Lets try this. We will start back in John 13:1. This was the "last supper". Where Jesus told the disciples someone would betray Him. Who was at this supper? Multitudes of people? Or just Jesus and the disciples?

In all of chapter 13. Is there anyone in this passage other than Jesus and the disciples? This continues over to chapter 14.
In the entire chapter of John 14. Is anyone mentioned besides Jesus and the disciples? This continues over to chapter 15.
In the entire chapter of John 15, is anyone mentioned other than the disciples? When we get to John 16:17 we see it's still
only the disciples. It isn't until John 18:1 that Jesus and disciples finally depart. Everything from Matt 13 to Matt 18:1 was only
spoken to the twelve disciples. Does some of apply to us? certainly. Does all of it... no.

To say this includes the whole world is adding to scripture.. inference that isn't in the Bible.

You say John 15:19 includes salvation.. OK then.. was Judas saved?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

I have responded to two of the main passages here. It's your turn. Don't pass over John 6:70 and how it relates to John 15:19.
Also.. I have given reasons why the entire chapter of John 15 was only spoken to the apostles. The burden is on you now.. to prove it wasn't.

 

[Garee]

It's not a lack of choice but is a lack of resurrection power to hear and choose. His faithful labor of love "Let there be" 6 times during creation and it was very good

Christ the husband actively calls us to return and do the first works of His Holy Spirit working in dying mankind to believe God and empower him to finish the will of the Holy Father

Took Samuel three first working calls. Three used in parables to denote the end of a matter. After the third call the confession of faith (unseen) Speak; for your servant heareth.

1 Samuel 3:10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

Revelation 2:4-7 I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.(hear and desire to please God) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;( Power to believe God) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.;But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Bill Taylor]

The matter of predestination is is easily discerned. Choice is çhò is a product of of both sides, Befoŕè Goď creàteď, He looked ďown through time àñď xàw mè tákè the Ruàh anď chose tò honor mý choice. We both exeŕcised free will in the màttèr.

 

[Kermos]

Before salvation, yes, 100%. After salvation, you need to do the 'preaching'.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation''.

-----------------------

I have been mistaken by a few for being a Calvinist as I believe that once you are gifted salvation you cannot lose it (OSAS). Calvinists go the extra mile and teach unconditional election / being chosen before you decide to repent and serve.

Hello KingJ,

I'll take that as a "no" from you regarding the question:

​

@KingJ, do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?​

(proof post #62)​

​

In effect, you excluded yourself from being a part of the whole world in the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John's "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19); therefore, you agree that the word "world" in Holy Scripture does not mean all people everywhere on the whole Earth in all instances.

The whole world exclusively includes future believers in Christ as used by John the Apostle in "He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, free-willians who demand the whole world includes all people everywhere which results in the following:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in failure atonement in their application of 1 John 2:2.

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Kermos]

I have to first try understand what you actually believe.

Hello KingJ,

God caused me to provide you with a description of my belief in post #53. If you do not understand post #53, then that is between you and God.

Your replies sound Calvinistic.

I am a Christian because I believe in Christ.

Discussion with Calvinists is mostly a waste of time as scripture is read with glasses that allow them to only see certain lines in isolation.

I believe the Word of God "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11), so I believe that discussing Scripture with free-willians and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and etc is a fruitful endeavor. You make it sound like you believe there is a group of people with whom discussing Scripture returns void.

You are making contradictory statements here. Surely you can see that?

You state that God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice.

How can you love justice if you are impartial?

Agreed.

Great.

You ask "How can you love justice if you are impartial?"

God is the impartial judge who metes out justice - "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

You seem to have a problem with God being the good impartial judge.

I read enough to prompt me to ask you the question I did in post #63.

If you are not Calvinist, sure, I will take another stab at reading your posts. It seemed like more Calvinistic drivel.



Then why do you make Calvinistic arguments?

In essence, you just explained that you judged post #62 with partiality which is ungodly.

You put so much effort into bastardising 13 very simple and clear ANTI Calvinistic scriptures in your post # 62.

But, you just explained that you judged post #62 with partiality which is ungodly. In essence, you conveyed that you didn't read post #62 in full, yet you maligned with your "You put so much effort into bastardising 13 very simple and clear ANTI Calvinistic scriptures in your post # 62".

God causes me to write Truth (John 14:6) about the 13 passages specifically that free-will of man is absent from 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 33:11, Isaiah 55:11 and Isaiah 55:1, Matthew 22:14, John 12:32, Revelation 22:17, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Hebrews 2:9, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, and Acts 17:30.

It is the U in TULIP.

Unconditional Election:

Calvinists believe that God, from eternity, has chosen certain individuals for salvation, and this choice is not contingent on anything those individuals might do or be.

Contrast with Arminianism:

Arminianism, a different theological perspective, suggests that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of who will accept Christ through faith. Calvinism, however, asserts that God's choice is prior to and independent of any human response.

I believe, as detailed in post #53, man's salvation is conditional solely based upon God's choice. The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I love discussing the Word of God!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Love,
Kermos

 

[B-A-C]

I am a Christian because I believe in Christ.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

I guess the demons are saved?

 

[Kermos]

@B-A-C is not guilty of dishonesty. You are the one trying to defend Calvinism and as such make the extra effort to include a verse with a particular word that you want all to overly read into, ''the world''.

Stop accusing others here and deal with the question / accusation of your belief in post # 63.

This site does not support Calvinism. Most here teach scripture from the position of God being good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. You are not doing that. You are trying to push a message that incriminates Him. Suggests He is a monster that sits atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. Your posts are painting God as partial and unjust.

Hello KingJ,

I am a Christian created by Christ who lovingly tells me “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)!

I am not a Calvinist. You are not honest by calling me a Calvinism adherent.

You are dishonest by claiming that "@B-A-C is not guilty of dishonesty" because here is the proof.

I wonder sometimes.... Jesus chose the twelve. It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve.
He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve. Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world?

Even though He did choose the twelve, He knew one of them was a devil. Why would Jesus chose a devil?

John 6:70-71 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so.

“Jesus choosing the twelve wasn’t about salvation—it was about ministry. Judas was chosen to fulfill a role, not to be saved. If anything, his betrayal shows that being chosen doesn’t override free will. He still made a choice, and Jesus’ foreknowledge didn’t force that decision.”

Post in thread 'A lack of choice?'

Jul 24, 2025

The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I wonder sometimes.... Jesus chose the twelve. It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve.
He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve. Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world?

Even though He did choose the twelve, He knew one of them was a devil. Why would Jesus chose a devil?

John 6:70-71 (KJV)
Jesus answered them...

• B-A-C

Hello @B-A-C,

You continue to neglect to reply to post #27 which systematically details your dishonest assertions of your original post, but, now, you reply to a post, which was not to you, with additional dishonesty. Recall, your opening post of this thread opens with "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), so don't lose sight of your own writing, @B-A-C, as you read this post detailing your dishonesty.

The first incidence of your dishonesty resides in your saying "So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so." flat out calls Jesus a liar because Christ promises me "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). I, a sheep owned by the Good Shepherd (John 10:27 and (John 10:14), reject your saying, @B-A-C!

Essentially, you excluded everyone from being the audience except the 12 Apostles inclusively from Christ's words recorded in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let us behold the audience of Lord Jesus Christ saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The second incidence of your dishonesty resides in your 'It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve. He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve' because at the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Judas Iscariot previously departed (John 13:21-30), so that leaves eleven apostles, not your "the twelve", but truly the eleven, so you are not honest with your inclusion of Judas Iscariot inside of Lord Jesus Christ's blessing of salvation with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The third incidence of your dishonesty resides in your 'It we take these verses in literal context... He "only" chose the twelve. He didn't choose anyone else except the twelve' because at the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias (Acts 1:21-23) were also present, not only your constraint of "the twelve", but truly a minimum of thirteen (13) persons besides Jesus are contextually established, so more than your "the twelve" are the audience.

The fourth incidence of your dishonesty resides in the Truth (John 14:6) that at the time Jesus bestows these blessings recorded in John 15:15-19 to all believers in all time the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (JOHN 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in (Mark 13:1-37). including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) applies to every single believer in Christ in all time; therefore, your "Why would we think this is a truth for the entire world" in conjunction with your "Jesus choosing the twelve wasn’t about salvation" was not honest on your part because you included "the entire world" yet the Word of God excluded "the world" when He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Dwell on the Lord Jesus Christ's words "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words" (John 14:23-24).

A QUESTION FOR YOU, @B-A-C.

Do you think that Jesus Christ calls you friend?

Before you answer, read this:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16)
​

No Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, so free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Love,
Kermos

 

[B-A-C]

You continue to neglect to reply to post #27

And here I thought posts #72 and #73 were in response to #27 all along.

Do you think that Jesus Christ calls you friend?

Matt 26:49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him.
Matt 26:50 And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.

Matt 22:11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
Matt 22:12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.
Matt 22:13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."