An honest discussion on free-will.
As most of you already know, I'm a free-will supporter. But there are scriptures we should be able to discuss.
I believe in God's sovereignty.
1. Proverbs 21:1 (NASB95)
"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes."
2. Proverbs 16:9 (NASB95)
"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps."
3. Proverbs 19:21 (NASB95)
"Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand."
4. Psalm 37:23 (NASB95)
"The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."
5. Romans 9:10–12 (NASB95)
"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.'"
6. Jeremiah 10:23 (NASB95)
"I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
It seems that (sometimes at least) God directs people to do certain things. I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes.
Hello B-A-C as well as
@KingJ and
@Gothedral because you "
Like"
@B-A-C's post,
You opened by indicating that you want to have "
An honest discussion on free-will", and I would too.
Largely, I use the term free-will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
The Sovereignty of God is revealed in your first 6 citations.
The definition of sovereign is "One that exercises supreme, permanent authority" (
sovereign defined at The Free Dictionary).
You wrote "
I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes", but the passages are absent of delegated authority.
In effect, your "
I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes" elevates man as sovereign which, in turn, translates to God not being sovereign.
7. Exodus 8:15 (NASB95)
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."

Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart.
8. Exodus 9:12 (NASB95)
"And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

Later, God actively hardens Pharaoh’s heart.
9. Exodus 10:1 (NASB95)
"Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them.'"

God explains His purpose in hardening Pharaoh’s heart—to display His power and signs.
This progression—from Pharaoh hardening his own heart to God hardening it—illustrates both human responsibility and divine sovereignty working together.
Now while I don't doubt that God controls all of these things... we still have the choice to sin or not.
Now, B-A-C, you wrote "
An honest discussion on free-will", but you wrote "
Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" for your next 3 quotations in Exodus chapters 8, 9, and 10, but chronologically prior to your first quotation which is Exodus 8:15, we find:
I will harden Pharaoh’s heart (
Exodus 7:3 (NASB1995))
Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
To be honest, Exodus 7:3 is the Bible's first mention about the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart.
And, Exodus 7:13 is the Bible's second mention of Pharaoh’s heart hardening.
No Word of God states man was imparted the ability to choose toward God.
You wrote "
Pharaoh hardening his own heart to God hardening it—illustrates both human responsibility and divine sovereignty working together", but does Holy Scripture state that?
1Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
God is faithful (
1 Corinthians 10:13 (NASB1995)) is wonderful, and this passage does not say anything about man free-will choosing anything.
Does God control whether you eat scrambled eggs or oatmeal for breakfast? I don't know... I know sometimes people (including myself) don't always make
the healthiest choices. Is that because God made me have a piece of cake for breakfast, or is that because I made a bad decision?
Christ's love controls us Christians (
2 Corinthians 5:14 (MST&NASB1995))!
My Father in Heaven is so very interested in the minute details about me for my Lord Jesus Christ lovingly tells me "
Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (
Matthew 10:29-30 (NASB1995)!
When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit (knowledge of good and evil) but they did it anyway.. was that because God made them do exactly what He told them not to do. Or was it because of their own free-will choice?
The Word of God declares "
Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (
Genesis 3:17 (NASB1995)), so it was not
because of their own free-will choice.
I do believe there are certain things God plans in advance. Nothing catches God by surprise. In fact I would say every prophecy in the Bible about future events (even future events that are now in the past) are part of God's sovereign plan.
But does God cause people to sin? I don't think so. Does God choose certain people to go to hell/the lake of Fire in advance? I don't think so.
Please pay attention to the Apostle's application of
Your Hand illuminating God's intimate control of humanity:
"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."
(
Acts 4:24-30 (NASB1995) - the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)
Look carefully, for the Assembly of God unison prayer to God includes
Pontius Pilate to do whatever Your Hand predestined to occur. That is a specific person under the direct influence of the Lord God Almighty to murder the innocent Son of Man.
The Lord God Almighty lovingly sent the Son of God to redeem God's chosen persons. God is love.
The Lord God Almighty is always good:
No one is good except God alone
The Lord God Almighty establishes which of man perceive God:
I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
The Lord God Almighty declares the Sovereignty of God "
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ,
John 3:3 (NASB1995))
for The Lord God Almighty alone is Savior of the world.
The Lord God Almighty had the Apostle Peter declare God's preservation of God's chosen persons as well as self-willed persons punishment, all the declaration showing the Power of God:
"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
The Lord God Almighty graciously imparts belief into God's chosen persons according to God's good will “
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (
John 6:29 (NASB1995)).
The Lord God Almighty declares man is accountable to God:
I tell you that every careless word that men speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
The Lord God Almighty declares to man his thoughts:
behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
The Lord God Almighty conveyed through the Apostle Paul of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:
"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
The Lord God Almighty is glorified with “
he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God,
John 3:21 (NASB1995)).
The unearned love of God is described here “
by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (
Ephesians 2:8-10)
We still have the ability to choose.
Josh 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in
Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:
IF condition THEN predicate
Stated in a more
Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.
IF you_do_this that_will_happen
Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).
A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.
Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (
Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)), so the condition (you_do_this) is "
to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore,
Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.
Disagreeable does not mean choose.
In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (
Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)), and the word "
choose" in this verse is translated from
בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).
Finaly, Joshua departs the logic statement by declaring "
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (
Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)).
A state of being, "
disagreeable", is mentioned in
Joshua 24:15, and action, "
serve", is mentioned in
Joshua 24:15.
There is no choice towards God mentioned in
Joshua 24:15.
Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Moses states not that God imparted man with the ability to choose God, not even a command to choose God:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
Take note, Moses referred to choosing living in the land, not choosing God; furthermore, the people failed
to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments
(
Deuteronomy 30:16 (NASB1995), see also "
where the LORD your God has banished you in
Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB1995)) - no one can succeed apart from Christ (John 15:5) - God redeems by the only Way (John 14:6) which is the Blood of Jesus the Lord who died on the cross then victoriously arose from the dead!
Love,
Kermos