A discussion on hell moved from thread What if you die tonight

[KingJ]

Question: "Does God love Satan? Since we are to love our enemies, does that mean we should love Satan?"

Answer: 1. No, God does not love Satan, and neither should we. 2. God cannot love that which is evil and unholy, and Satan embodies all of that.

3. He is the enemy (1 Peter 5:8); the evil one (Matthew 6:13); the father of lies and a murderer (John 8:44); the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10); . the tempter (1 Thessalonians 3:5); proud, wicked and violent (Isaiah 14:12-15); a deceiver (Acts 13:10); a schemer (Ephesians 6:11); a thief (Luke 8:12); and many more evil things. 4. He is, in fact, everything that God hates. 5. The heart of Satan is fixed and confirmed in his hatred of God, his judgment is final, and his destruction is sure. 6. Revelation 20 describes God’s future plan for Satan, 7. and love for Satan has no part in it.

8. Jesus’ command that we love our enemies (Matthew 5:44) is meant to govern interpersonal relationships in this world. 9. We love God, and we love people (even our enemies), who are made in God’s image. 10. Angels are not made in God’s image. 11. We are never told to love the holy angels, and 12. we are certainly never told to love the evil angels.

13. Since Satan is everything that is antithetical to the God we love, we cannot love Satan. 14. If we loved Satan, we would be forced to hate God, because holiness is the opposite of sin.

15. God has already determined that there will be no forgiveness for Satan; 16. we are the objects of God’s sacrificial love, shown on the cross.17. As God was lovingly redeeming mankind, He was putting Satan “to open shame” (Colossians 2:15). 18. God’s judgment of Satan will be part of His great love for us.

19. Does God love Satan?

Hey Dave, I am going to be pedantic on this as there is just so much error and assumptions made. I hope you don't mind point form replies, I just cannot quote them all.

1. Assumption
2. God loves all His creation. God rejoices in all His works Psalm 104:31.
3. Yes, he is an enemy. Not 'the' enemy. We are told to love our enemies Matt 5:44. The real argument for me is as I have mentioned before. If God tells us to love our enemies, but He does not love His, He is a hypocrite. God is not a hypocrite.
4. There was a time he was not. So this writer is trying to be God? Grasp the fullness of time?
5. Yes, Jesus says he has been sinning since the beginning. Jesus still spoke very politely to him in the wilderness.
6. This eternal punishment of torment in fire for all eternity. Needs to be better understood. I have explained this in my posts above.
7. Wrong and an assumption. God is love. Whoever does not know this does not know God 1 John 4:8.
8. Assumption. Jesus is teaching us what a Christian is. What He is. ''Being love'' is a Christian trait. Like being sweet and not sour.
9. Assumption.
10. If we are a little beneath them Heb 2:7 and we are in His image, I would think they are too.
11. We are never told to love a penguin.
12. So we must be like / have chameleon Christianity? I would love to hear ''Peace's'' view on this imperfection. I am sure he would agree with me .
13. That is such a twisting of words. Since satan sins, and God hates sin, we cannot love satan. Since my dog throw's up and my wife hates this on the floor, I cannot love my dog.
14. What is loving God? It is obeying His commandments. He has commanded us to love our enemy.
15. Correct. God does not make mistakes.
16 & 17. There is a hint of God loving us more then the fallen angels here. God is impartial Acts 10:34. He loves all. We hate Him.
18. Huh? If God is cruel to satan, it is evidence of His love for us? That is sick reasoning.
19. Yes.

I am not proposing we pray for satan to repent. We know God made no mistake in removing them from heaven. But don't any of us DARE for one second think God is not SAD at the fact that he and the other fallen angels and many humans are en route to hell for eternity. God is sad because He loves them all. They hate Him.

I truly pray you guys grasp how terrible this belief is.

 

[Dave M]

I cant speak for God unless its spelled out in scripture I try not to speculate. I am guilty of speculating far to much in the past. Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response, I always appreciate your insight weather I agree or disagree I appreciated you King J

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Jim, a dog is a dog. A dog does what a dog does. A cat is a cat. A human is a human. A Christian is a Christian. When you make a statement like you have, I feel the need to discuss what exactly a Christian is.


I disagree with your assumption. A human is a human. A human is not an angel. A human is not a god.

You are missing the point I am making.

Let me give an example:

You and I are Christians. Our discussion with each other goes: You say X, I disagree and try move to another thread before I say things I shouldn't. But I do read your posts, I do reply and we both try be friendly. Nobody would say I hate you, based off of our interaction. They would just see a disagreement and at times some frustration.

If, however you met with Nero. The discussion will go ''Nero what do you think....'' He will interrupt you and put you on a pike just for thinking you can talk to him about Christianity. Why? Because he hates you. He does not love you.

Now, does Jesus show any signs of hatred to the devil? I see Him entertaining the devil's nonsense on three occasions. Then politely moving on. I see the same in His interaction with the fallen angels whose request to be cast into pigs was honored. Would Nero honor your request for some lunch before torture and death?

I am simply looking at where the evidence is pointing. You really do need to do the same. Tunnel vision has caused you to make an insanely untrue statement about God. God does not hate anyone! He is incapable of it.

He hates sin. Correct. Not the sinner. The difference is on par with one end of the universe to the other. So, lets not get it wrong.



Vengeance is God's because God is able to judge and discern at a level nobody can. What we need to do is look closer at what His wrath is. Not make assumptions as Dante's inferno makes.

Remember, it is a good God getting vengeance. We should be able to grasp what he would do as we are / ''should be'' after His heart. He is an open book. BAC quoted the scripture showing that angels and God will have full view of hell. IE God has absolutely nothing to hide. Now why do you think that is?


You are contradicting yourself. I agree with the second part.



If we hate him, how are we better then him? He does what he does because he hates us and God.

So we must ...hate him too....

Did Roosevelt and Churchill '''hate''' the Germans when they signed the Geneva convention? If humans can get this right. Paul will not be impressed with us according to 1 Cor 6 do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world?.

Let's get back to the question in question.

You insist the Subject matter of this is not pertaining to people only.
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

However Ephesians 6:12 instructs us
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Now then let's look at some facts.

People are the only created beings which have flesh and blood.

If we believe God is saying love your evil spirit enemies then He would be going against His own word by telling us our fight is not with each other but with wicked spirit beings.

So satan kills, and destroys Gods very own people and inflicts them with sickness and infirmities bondage and so forth and you claim God loves him.

Yes God is a God of Love, Rather He is Love and yes there is no darkness in Him HOWEVER He is not ignorant and harboring love for the devil.

Now the second one

Scripture tells us hell was created for satan and His following angels.

However you insist it was created for man too because God had to be thinking about sinners.

Again look at scripture
1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God desires no one enter hell so he would not be thinking about men being sent there.

Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

I cant speak for God unless its spelled out in scripture I try not to speculate.

A safe rule of thumb is for us to not contradict what He does tell us about Himself.

I / we cannot defend God as good if He hates His enemies or tortures anyone in hell. David says ''give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1. He could be evil, but He is not. So let's not teach that He is evil in the hereafter. It contradicts what we do know of Him.

 

[KingJ]

Now then let's look at some facts.

People are the only created beings which have flesh and blood.

If we believe God is saying love your evil spirit enemies then He would be going against His own word by telling us our fight is not with each other but with wicked spirit beings.

EPh 6:12 Our fight is against spiritual wicked powers. Correct. Hating them however is your inserted assumption.

So satan kills, and destroys Gods very own people and inflicts them with sickness and infirmities bondage and so forth and you claim God loves him.

God loved us when we were sinners. How many times do I have to repeat myself to you? Do you not read my posts?

IF the humane humans of this world can sign the Geneva convention. Treat their enemy who, to quote your line '' kills, and destroys Gods very own people and inflicts them with sickness and infirmities bondage and so forth...and conducted sick experiments on your children''...how much better should YOU a Christian treat them and then God, who is the EPITOME of love and goodness.

God loves all His creation. They hate him. He warns us of those that hate Him. He does not tell us to hate them. That would make us NO BETTER then them.

You want to be filled with hatred? Tell me, what feelings do you have for the devil? and if you have these feelings for a creation of His, how can God use you to save wicked humans?

It is the flesh wanting us to hate another being. It is not God. You and the person in the quote by Dave, are putting words in God's mouth. It is a sick belief you are pushing.

Yes God is a God of Love, Rather He is Love and yes there is no darkness in Him HOWEVER He is not ignorant and harboring love for the devil.

Have you got children? Your naughty and disobedient children you stop loving?

Now the second one

Scripture tells us hell was created for satan and His following angels.

However you insist it was created for man too because God had to be thinking about sinners.

Again look at scripture
1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God desires no one enter hell so he would not be thinking about men being sent there.

God planned Jesus before the foundations of the earth. Before satan fell from glory. God always expected / knew all humans would accept Jesus? I think not. You are just making that poor scripture say /support something it does not. The lake of fire is the eternal abode of the wicked. Nobody is there. God always planned to put Hades, the fallen angels and the wicked humans in it, per Rev 20. My house was built for my wife and kids. It was also built for my wife and I. It was also built for visitors.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

11. We are never told to love the holy angels,

11. We are never told to love a penguin.

A safe rule of thumb is for us to not contradict what He does tell us about Himself.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

nor to make silly connections in order to prove our point.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

God loves all His creation. They hate him. He warns us of those that hate Him. He does not tell us to hate them. That would make us NO BETTER then them.

You want to be filled with hatred? Tell me, what feelings do you have for the devil? and if you have these feelings for a creation of His, how can God use you to save wicked humans?

It is the flesh wanting us to hate another being. It is not God. You and the person in the quote by Dave, are putting words in God's mouth. It is a sick belief you are pushing.

Firstly one must seperate
People saved or unsaved from satan and His bunch.

As I have shown you many times now.
We are to "Hate the Sin" not the sinner which will ALWAYS be people.

I have no problem hating sin and the devil and His bunch and Loving People.

I may not LIKE what some people do but I Firstly Love them just as God Loves Them.

Secondly I understand that they are influenced by the evil god of this world and world system.

Thirdly I have no problem understanding that my fight is not with them but with the evil spirits.
It's called spiritual warfare for a reason.

All this is manifested fruit of the Spirit.
Walking in Love and Forgiveness.

However there are times when things change up some. If some one is trying to hurt a family member , even though I Will Forgive Them and Love Them and Pray for them - I will stop them at any cause from hurting a family member.

Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
nor to make silly connections in order to prove our point.
Bless you ....><>

We are never told to love the holy angels

Not any less silly then the original statement.

Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

The point I am making which I should not have to be making, is that a Christian loves others. Because it is in our nature. When we get to heaven, some will hate angels? We only love now, because we are commanded to?

 

[Dave M]

A safe rule of thumb is for us to not contradict what He does tell us about Himself.

I / we cannot defend God as good if He hates His enemies or tortures anyone in hell. David says ''give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1. He could be evil, but He is not. So let's not teach that He is evil in the hereafter. It contradicts what we do know of Him.

Dear Brother no one is saying God is evil that is nuts to even suggest , big difference in being evil and punishing

 

[KingJ]

Dear Brother no one is saying God is evil that is nuts to even suggest , big difference in being evil and punishing

If punishment is torture or eye for an eye or from His hatred of them, you are saying He is evil.

 

[KingJ]

Firstly one must separate. People saved or unsaved from satan and His bunch.

As I have shown you many times now.
We are to "Hate the Sin" not the sinner which will ALWAYS be people.

You can say it a million times to no avail. I have moved on as I have grasped the fuller picture. I am trying to help you to do the same.

I have no problem hating sin and the devil and His bunch and Loving People.

This truly concerns me. You are ok with harboring hatred in your heart? It does not matter for whom it is. Do you love having thoughts of the devil burning in fire? That is what a heart that hates the devil desires.

I am just shocked. Shocked. Shocked. Shocked. I truly hope you do not understand what you are actually saying.

Secondly I understand that they are influenced by the evil god of this world and world system.

I don't believe you do understand. People go to hell to suffer for their sins. Their choice of darkness John 3:19. People are wicked without the devil. The devil just helps God to bring it out of us. That is why God put him on the earth in the first place.

Thirdly I have no problem understanding that my fight is not with them but with the evil spirits.

So, when you fight, you need to be filled with hatred for the enemy? Imagine telling that to your soldiers. We would have them committing all kinds of atrocities to the captured enemy.

When you exorcise a demon. Do you torture the demon? If you hated him, that is what you would do. If you could, you would rip his arms off and watch him cry all day? You are ok with that?

It's called spiritual warfare for a reason.
All this is manifested fruit of the Spirit.

If the USA hated ISIS as ISIS hated the USA, we would be no better then them. Do you agree? Or are you ok with us beheading Muslim extremists in a cruel fashion on live television?

Walking in Love and Forgiveness.

This line seems so out of place with the rest of your post.

However there are times when things change up some. If some one is trying to hurt a family member , even though I Will Forgive Them and Love Them and Pray for them - I will stop them at any cause from hurting a family member.

No hatred needed for self defense.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

from what I understand, which is not by any means any guideline of authority on any subject save the love I know of the Lord, angels are not recipients of love and therefore likewise, hate. So, in a nutshell, your use @KingJ of us loving or hating, or God loving or hating angels is entirely in ones own imagination and has no Scriptural basis that I am aware of.
If this is the case then the case you carry is empty.

I am open for any Scripture that says differently.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

People are wicked without the devil.

please provide solid Scriptural backing for this statement.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,

from what I understand, which is not by any means any guideline of authority on any subject save the love I know of the Lord, angels are not recipients of love and therefore likewise, hate. So, in a nutshell, your use @KingJ of us loving or hating, or God loving or hating angels is entirely in ones own imagination and has no Scriptural basis that I am aware of.
If this is the case then the case you carry is empty.

I am open for any Scripture that says differently.

Bless you ....><>

Br Bear I don't believe you are completely grasping the subject.

Let me make it as simple as possible.

If we hate a rapist. We will torture that rapist
If we love a rapist but hate their actions, we will sentence them to prison or a quick execution.

Agreed?

Now, when someone says they '''hate'' a fallen angel. They are espousing torture of them is fine. Pull off their arms, throw them in acid, put them in a brazen bull.

WHAT Christian HAS these thoughts??? Now we are ok with some telling us to have these???

We can HATE sin. When we utterly hate sin. We think of utterly extreme means of dealing with sin.

We cannot fill our minds with thoughts of hatred for a being!! An angel will also weep and gnash their teeth in hell. Otherwise we would not be with them in hell.

God does not hate any of His creation. If God had thoughts of hatred toward a being....I am truly terrified of God and do not want to serve Him in the slightest.

 

[Br. Bear]

Do you love having thoughts of the devil burning in fire?

Rather absurd thing to say KingJ.

What do we do with Scripture such as:
Dueteronomy 25:17-19 ?
Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God. Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.
------------------------------------------

If we hate a rapist. We will torture that rapist

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Romans 12:20

taken from Proverbs 25 verses 21 and 22
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
-----------------------------------------

If we love a rapist but hate their actions, we will sentence them to prison or a quick execution.

Agreed?

no.
but remember it is me not you who you are asking,
------------------------------------------------------

We can HATE sin. When we utterly hate sin. We think of utterly extreme means of dealing with sin.

We can, but do we?
----------------------------------------------------

Now, when someone says they '''hate'' a fallen angel. They are espousing torture of them is fine. Pull off their arms, throw them in acid, put them in a brazen bull.

Where, please do you get this notion from, KingJ?
-----------------------------------------------

God does not hate any of His creation

Who, may I ask, said that God has to hate? Can you not see that dealing with anything vile does not necessitate hatred but merely dealing with it because it must be done.
Perhaps your concept of love and hate are out of adjustment somehow and from your comment above about penguins, I tend to think so, But, that is OK because the God Whom you must serve whether you like to or not is willing to help you as He has me to learn of Him.
May I suggest that attempting to put the Almighty LORD God into a box is not something we are asked to do nor is it advisable. Be happy seeing dimly, for now.

Rejoice in all He has done for you and those you know.

I personally do not know this satan/devil you talk about nor do I wish to make his acquaintance.
If, one day, my God and Saviour wants me to do so, then so be it, amen, and yet, until then I am very content and full delighting in the One Who gave his life for me while I was yet a sinner.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

please provide solid Scriptural backing for this statement.

Every scripture where God's wrath fell upon a person. Perhaps best summarized by John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

from what I understand, which is not by any means any guideline of authority on any subject save the love I know of the Lord, angels are not recipients of love and therefore likewise, hate. So, in a nutshell, your use @KingJ of us loving or hating, or God loving or hating angels is entirely in ones own imagination and has no Scriptural basis that I am aware of.
If this is the case then the case you carry is empty.

I am open for any Scripture that says differently.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Rather absurd thing to say KingJ.

What do we do with Scripture such as:
Dueteronomy 25:17-19 ?
Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God. Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

I don't see your point. If you hate someone you will want to see them burnt.

Are you implying God blotting out Amalek from their remembrance is evidence of God hating Amalek? It's not. Removing the wicked, is how we deal with the wicked. It is no evidence of hatred of the wicked.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again to you KingJ,

Are you implying God blotting out Amalek from their remembrance is evidence of God hating Amalek? It's not. Removing the wicked, is how we deal with the wicked. It is no evidence of hatred of the wicked

Are you implying God blotting out Amalek from their remembrance is evidence of God hating Amalek?
no. I am not.

It is no evidence of hatred of the wicked
exactly my point regarding insinuations that one must hate, etc., the devil as you suggest they have to.

If you hate someone you will want to see them burnt.

Why?


Bless you ...><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

heads up on the fact i have closed this thread for a short while.
I ask that before any further responses keep flying, that Members stop and think and please pray before continuing.
Much has been said and it would be good to take a breather.
It's OK, if anyone wants to continue, prayerfully, it will be open soon.

Closed for Lunch, Back soon.