Active
As I said before, absolutely no discernment. Why do you visit a discussion site if you are unable to discuss and prove scripture with logic? I would love to see you defend Christianity in a debate with an atheist.
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A discussion on hell moved from thread What if you die tonight
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Loyal
Greetings,
Logic has no place in understanding Gods Word or ways.
See that's just it, debating with atheist is worthless because its done through natural reasoning and there is no love or power in it.
Blessing's
Loyal
Kj ,
If by reason together , you mean accept what you want me to believe and ignore truth of His Word concerning this , then that ain't going to happen.
God never ever said to love satan.
God said hate what is evil.
Hmm seems that would be the devil.
God tells us to love the person and hate the sin.
You do error greatly by placing satan in the scripture love your enemies.
Blessings
Loyal
For some people.. love = no wrath and no punishment. I think these people don't really understand love or the nature of God.
Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Those who worship Satan (the Beast) will drink of the wrath of God... the "full strength" of it. They will be "tormented" with fire and brimstone.
Not away from God and Jesus... but "in the presence" of angels and the Lamb (Jesus).
They are tormented "forever"... and "ever"... they have no rest from this torment.. not any day or any night.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Again here.. this time not those who take the mark of the beast and worship him... but also Satan and the beast, and the false prophet... they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Where they are tormented "forever and ever".
Matt 18:8; “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matt 18:9; If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Some people who refuse to repent.. will be cast into the "eternal" fire. Some will cast into the fiery hell.
In the message about the sheep and the goats.. it ends with this verse.
Matt 25:46; These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The punishment isn't temporary... it's called "eternal punishment".
Some say there is a another place that isn't hades or the lake of fire... they call this "the outer darkness".
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
But even this place will be painful. Painful enough to cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. As an ex fireman... I can tell you most structure fires are pitch black inside them... that doesn't mean they aren't hot".
Matt 13:41; The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:43; Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
In verse 42 above it says people who are stumbling blocks and commit lawlessness will be cast into the furnace or fire... "where there is gnashing of teeth and weeping".
Anyone who isn't saved... "EVERYONE" who isn't saved... who's name isn't in the book of life...
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
.. they are thrown into the lake of Fire. Even hades, and everyone in hades... is thrown into the lake of fire.
Those who ignore a chance to be saved by Jesus....
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God may "be love". But it will be a "terrifying thing" for some people to fall into His hands.
There are people who do not believe any of the passages above. But they are in the Bible and they are plain to read.
To deny them, is to deny God's word.
Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Those who worship Satan (the Beast) will drink of the wrath of God... the "full strength" of it. They will be "tormented" with fire and brimstone.
Not away from God and Jesus... but "in the presence" of angels and the Lamb (Jesus).
They are tormented "forever"... and "ever"... they have no rest from this torment.. not any day or any night.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Again here.. this time not those who take the mark of the beast and worship him... but also Satan and the beast, and the false prophet... they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Where they are tormented "forever and ever".
Matt 18:8; “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matt 18:9; If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Some people who refuse to repent.. will be cast into the "eternal" fire. Some will cast into the fiery hell.
In the message about the sheep and the goats.. it ends with this verse.
Matt 25:46; These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The punishment isn't temporary... it's called "eternal punishment".
Some say there is a another place that isn't hades or the lake of fire... they call this "the outer darkness".
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
But even this place will be painful. Painful enough to cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. As an ex fireman... I can tell you most structure fires are pitch black inside them... that doesn't mean they aren't hot".
Matt 13:41; The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:43; Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
In verse 42 above it says people who are stumbling blocks and commit lawlessness will be cast into the furnace or fire... "where there is gnashing of teeth and weeping".
Anyone who isn't saved... "EVERYONE" who isn't saved... who's name isn't in the book of life...
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
.. they are thrown into the lake of Fire. Even hades, and everyone in hades... is thrown into the lake of fire.
Those who ignore a chance to be saved by Jesus....
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God may "be love". But it will be a "terrifying thing" for some people to fall into His hands.
There are people who do not believe any of the passages above. But they are in the Bible and they are plain to read.
To deny them, is to deny God's word.
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Loyal
When Satan is released from his 1,000 year imprisonment, He will gather an army "like the sand of the sea".
Keep in mind, this is AFTER the millennial reign. How does God deal with this army?
Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
This sounds a little like a city in Genesis.
Gen 19:23; The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
Gen 19:25; and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
The priests who rebelled against God in Numbers.
Num 16:30; "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
Num 16:31; As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
Num 16:32; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
Num 16:33; So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
Num 16:34; All Israel who were around them fled at their outcry, for they said, "The earth may swallow us up!"
Num 16:35; Fire also came forth from the LORD and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense.
Keep in mind, this is AFTER the millennial reign. How does God deal with this army?
Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
This sounds a little like a city in Genesis.
Gen 19:23; The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
Gen 19:25; and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
The priests who rebelled against God in Numbers.
Num 16:30; "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
Num 16:31; As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
Num 16:32; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
Num 16:33; So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
Num 16:34; All Israel who were around them fled at their outcry, for they said, "The earth may swallow us up!"
Num 16:35; Fire also came forth from the LORD and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense.
Loyal
We don't have to defend it, or make excuses for it. But if you want to tell them about God's love and grace... you can explain
they don't have to end up like the people in the verses above. That's mercy and grace. None of us deserve it.
Active
But you are ignoring the scripture I quote. The logic I present. Sticking to your cherry picked verses which fail literally 100% on logic and quite literally paint a terrible picture of God. Something the devil would want. The devil wants us to believe God is wicked and evil. You are espousing He is that. So don't lecture me on keeping to the truth of His word when you do not grasp the God we serve.
God is love. God does not change. God is light with no darkness in Him at all. Apply these definitions of God to the future. Not some person who had a nightmare or was poor and saw Christians as suckers to buy their book speaking of a terrible hell.
Active
There is just so much error in this statement.
We do have to defend scripture. God. Jesus. It shows we believe scripture with all our hearts and minds. It shows we care about others. It shows God we are using our God given gift of brain cells between our ears :wink:.
God is an open book. It is a given with a good God. Our God is....good. That is ''why'' we give thanks Psalm 136:1. That is ''why'' I am a Christian. That is ''why'' all the ungodly / the devil want to prove God is evil. Prove God / Jesus is evil and Christianity becomes just another religion with a ''god'' who nobody should care about serving.
Loyal
Again logic has no place in the Written Word of God!!
No offense but it is within your thinking here that pleases the devil.
God is Love and everything is ok and he'll ain't bad because God loves you and has no darkness in Him.
Bro that is simply opposed to God and His Word .
I am not ignoring scripture but I won't just run scripture together to form some crazy thought either.
So I guess this it huh ?
Blessings to you
Loyal
Actually God's Word defends itself
Active
A good leader will separate the good from the bad. We do it with prisons. You can't keep a pedophile with a child. Hell is evidence of that.
No good person has to disagree with punishment for the wicked. We just need to grasp what we can expect from the God we serve. Think about the punishment these three leaders would dish out.
1. Nero. We know what his punishment for being a Christian was. Torture. A cruel death. No mercy. No food. No visits from family members. Unjust trial. No medical attention. Is that our God?
2. Churchill and Roosevelt. Geneva convention. Treat the enemy the same as your troops. Nice food, medical attention, family visits, access to banking facilities, sport facilities, space the list is long. With a special trial for the more grievous sinners, whereby they could be executed or serve long prison sentences.
3. Christian. According to Paul in 1 Cor 6 we can judge and should be able to judge better then the unsaved. I as a Christian approve of the Geneva convention but will do better. I will take my enemy fresh fruit daily. Why? Do I believe they will even convert? No. But it is who I am, thanks to Jesus / God.
4. God. He is the epitome of perfection. The epitome of good. He will at the least match what a Christian does. But I believe He will do better. Be kinder. More loving and caring. It is who He is.
In the presence of the angels and the Lamb just further proves my point. God has nothing to hide. If God was doing anything evil, anything we or an angel would find disturbing. Scripture would say ''they will be tormented and nobody will know or see what happens to them''.
This is not surprising. We know the wicked don't have peace. They are ok with that. There will surely be levels of this. A murderer will always have what he did on his conscience. A thief, a lot less bugging him.
Compared to heaven, earth can also be called a fiery hell. God's wording and choice of words needs to be better understood. God speaks from His vantage point. Adam and Eve were told they would die. Told they would sweat and labor. Have extreme pain in childbirth. Basically enter a kind of hell. Compared to the garden of Eden, I am certain God was completely truthful. But is earth ''that'' bad? It is not what God wants for a creation He loves, but it is still not evidence of any evil from God. It can be a rough place, but it is us who makes It a rough place.
I want us to focus specifically on torture. Eternal separation does not paint God as evil. Torture does. Eye for an eye does too.
There is simply no way to defend God as good if He will torture His enemy. When you underline ''fire'', you are implying that is what He will do and you are ok with that. Can we focus on that please? Namely the fact that you are ok with believing the God you serve will be like Nero in my section above.
There is no evidence of God ever torturing His enemy in the present and past. Yet we assume it will happen in the future for eternity. Are you ok with God ''changing''? I am not. Do you not realize that is what you are teaching? It is such an insane error.
Active
But this is ''your'' logic. We are each accountable for our actions and beliefs, because we each have considerable grey matter between our ears.
Your cherry picked verses and 'conveniently applied to your point of view', logic paints my God with the same brush as the devil. I have a serious problem with that. I have explained why. You have just told me to listen to your grey matter and not use mine. This is hilarious Jim. Please discuss better.
Loyal
I have no clue what you are talking about.
Active
You quote ''God hates Esau''. I quote "God is love''.
You rationalize God hates. I rationalize their is context to God hating because there is scripture that says he loves.
You say I am wrong. I say you are wrong.
This is not discussion and we are both too close to insults. When neither of us are bad Christians. That is all I am saying :wink:.
Loyal
I do not ignore scripture .
I do ignore when scriptures are joined together in some logical reasoning to make a point which violates other Scriptures.
Again I will say it. Logic and human reasoning has no place in the understanding of God's Written Word.
If it did then any one could use logic and figure out God's Word.
Blessings to you
Loyal
Sorry but I still don't see your point here. I am far from insults.
My Point that you totally said I was wrong was.
God does not tell us to love the devil.
You insisted That I was wrong about loving our enemies was talking about people and not the devil.
Brother I have no love for the devil nor will I ever. When he is cast into the pit I will not shed a tear.
Scripture tells us.....
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
Hence Love our enemies ..... people
We pray for them.......we fight against the devil and his bunch.
Blessings to you
Active
We do not only disagree on that ...and on that, that is your opinion. Scripture shows how Jesus interacted with the devil on a respectful basis in the wilderness. Scripture says God is light with no darkness at all. Scripture says we are to hate evil / the darkness. Hating any being is a sign of darkness in us. That is why we are told to love our enemies.
You have convoluted a belief system that only agrees with cherry picked scripture.
We will continue to love our enemies in the hereafter because that IS who we are. We do not ''fake'' Christianity / who we are.
Loyal
No offense kj but where do you come up with this stuff?
If you find yourself in Heaven and you have enemies there to love - bro be very terrified because you are heading the other direction.
There is no evil or curse in Heaven.
This world is the only place you will ever experience evil or the curse.
Once you slip out of this earth suit we call our body - it will be the first time in your existence that you will exist without feeling or being pressured by this evil and curse.
There will be no arguing or squabbling or Attitude once you leave here.
Jesus dealt with satan using the Word of God . Remember satan was quoting scripture to Jesus trying to trip Jesus up.
Remember this was also before the cross and Jesus defeating satan and Taking Back the keys of Death.
Exactly - He can do no evil.
He is Righteous and Light
That does not interfere with Him hating what is evil or sin.
God is Love but He is not some whimsical being floating around on the clouds passing out daisies.
Scripture tells us in Romans
12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Hating our Brother and hating people
Is what scripture tells us.
Example Hate or despise the lie
NOT THE LIAR.
satan is an evil spirit being. The accuser of the brethren .
To try and say we are in darkness if we hate this evil being is just truly sad.
So you say !!
Blessings to you
Active
Jim, a dog is a dog. A dog does what a dog does. A cat is a cat. A human is a human. A Christian is a Christian. When you make a statement like you have, I feel the need to discuss what exactly a Christian is.
I disagree with your assumption. A human is a human. A human is not an angel. A human is not a god.
You are missing the point I am making.
Let me give an example:
You and I are Christians. Our discussion with each other goes: You say X, I disagree and try move to another thread before I say things I shouldn't. But I do read your posts, I do reply and we both try be friendly. Nobody would say I hate you, based off of our interaction. They would just see a disagreement and at times some frustration.
If, however you met with Nero. The discussion will go ''Nero what do you think....'' He will interrupt you and put you on a pike just for thinking you can talk to him about Christianity. Why? Because he hates you. He does not love you.
Now, does Jesus show any signs of hatred to the devil? I see Him entertaining the devil's nonsense on three occasions. Then politely moving on. I see the same in His interaction with the fallen angels whose request to be cast into pigs was honored. Would Nero honor your request for some lunch before torture and death?
I am simply looking at where the evidence is pointing. You really do need to do the same. Tunnel vision has caused you to make an insanely untrue statement about God. God does not hate anyone! He is incapable of it.
He hates sin. Correct. Not the sinner. The difference is on par with one end of the universe to the other. So, lets not get it wrong.
Vengeance is God's because God is able to judge and discern at a level nobody can. What we need to do is look closer at what His wrath is. Not make assumptions as Dante's inferno makes.
Remember, it is a good God getting vengeance. We should be able to grasp what he would do as we are / ''should be'' after His heart. He is an open book. BAC quoted the scripture showing that angels and God will have full view of hell. IE God has absolutely nothing to hide. Now why do you think that is?
You are contradicting yourself. I agree with the second part.
If we hate him, how are we better then him? He does what he does because he hates us and God.
So we must ...hate him too....
Did Roosevelt and Churchill '''hate''' the Germans when they signed the Geneva convention? If humans can get this right. Paul will not be impressed with us according to 1 Cor 6 do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world?.
Loyal
Question: "Does God love Satan? Since we are to love our enemies, does that mean we should love Satan?"
Answer: No, God does not love Satan, and neither should we. God cannot love that which is evil and unholy, and Satan embodies all of that. He is the enemy (1 Peter 5:8); the evil one (Matthew 6:13); the father of lies and a murderer (John 8:44); the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10); the tempter (1 Thessalonians 3:5); proud, wicked and violent (Isaiah 14:12-15); a deceiver (Acts 13:10); a schemer (Ephesians 6:11); a thief (Luke 8:12); and many more evil things. He is, in fact, everything that God hates. The heart of Satan is fixed and confirmed in his hatred of God, his judgment is final, and his destruction is sure. Revelation 20 describes God’s future plan for Satan, and love for Satan has no part in it.
Jesus’ command that we love our enemies (Matthew 5:44) is meant to govern interpersonal relationships in this world. We love God, and we love people (even our enemies), who are made in God’s image. Angels are not made in God’s image. We are never told to love the holy angels, and we are certainly never told to love the evil angels.
Since Satan is everything that is antithetical to the God we love, we cannot love Satan. If we loved Satan, we would be forced to hate God, because holiness is the opposite of sin.
God has already determined that there will be no forgiveness for Satan; we are the objects of God’s sacrificial love, shown on the cross. As God was lovingly redeeming mankind, He was putting Satan “to open shame” (Colossians 2:15). God’s judgment of Satan will be part of His great love for us.
Does God love Satan?
Answer: No, God does not love Satan, and neither should we. God cannot love that which is evil and unholy, and Satan embodies all of that. He is the enemy (1 Peter 5:8); the evil one (Matthew 6:13); the father of lies and a murderer (John 8:44); the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10); the tempter (1 Thessalonians 3:5); proud, wicked and violent (Isaiah 14:12-15); a deceiver (Acts 13:10); a schemer (Ephesians 6:11); a thief (Luke 8:12); and many more evil things. He is, in fact, everything that God hates. The heart of Satan is fixed and confirmed in his hatred of God, his judgment is final, and his destruction is sure. Revelation 20 describes God’s future plan for Satan, and love for Satan has no part in it.
Jesus’ command that we love our enemies (Matthew 5:44) is meant to govern interpersonal relationships in this world. We love God, and we love people (even our enemies), who are made in God’s image. Angels are not made in God’s image. We are never told to love the holy angels, and we are certainly never told to love the evil angels.
Since Satan is everything that is antithetical to the God we love, we cannot love Satan. If we loved Satan, we would be forced to hate God, because holiness is the opposite of sin.
God has already determined that there will be no forgiveness for Satan; we are the objects of God’s sacrificial love, shown on the cross. As God was lovingly redeeming mankind, He was putting Satan “to open shame” (Colossians 2:15). God’s judgment of Satan will be part of His great love for us.
Does God love Satan?
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