povawiqe said:

The Messiah is restricted because he himself is created, which is why he is called "son of God". A son comes after a father, not before a father, nor at the same time as a father, and the time the Messiah came into existence was in the beginning of creation, which is why the scriptures call him the "firstborn of creation" and also the "only son of God", because he was the only soul brought into existence directly by the Father, whereas everyone else, man, animals, and angels, were all brought into existence through the Messiah, which is why the scriptures also declare, "through him all came to be".

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Christ4Ever said:

Dear povawiqe,

[Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Knowing the above verse is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, how then can He also be in heaven at the same time?

[Jhn 6:46 KJV] 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

[Jhn 14:9 KJV] 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

This is why many believe in the Second of the Godhead who is Jesus Christ. God the Father being the first, and the third of the Godhead is God the Holy Spirit.

Much of the difficulty with this is that Jesus is also the Son of Man. Understanding that the incarnate God was necessary as the Son of Man to be the perfect Sacrifice, helps clear up any ambiguity.

However, I'm also sure you can break down in the Greek Son of God. Son is relational, while God is divinity. So, there is only one God, in three persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Understanding why Jesus had no issue with being equal to the Father, which the Jews saw this in Him as well and tried to kill Him for it was something that provided me additional clarity. If the Jews of the day saw Him as saying & believing Himself to be so, why would/should I be hesitant in accepting Him that way as well? I understand where you are at, because I stood there as well, and is not something I could grasp quickly over any particular posting/readings/prayers/meditating on His Word etc. It took me many years to be at peace with this understanding.

[Jhn 5:18 KJV] 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

However, it was necessary for Him to become less as well, however not as you believe Him to be as a Created being.

[Phl 2:6-8 KJV] 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

How great is the Love of God!!!



Here is the issue with what you have said. You leave out what is most important and provides the context! "Begotten"! Not created! Now where you received the "first born of creation" from also requires context.

[Col 1:15 KJV] 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The context being found in v16, 17, which is below my side note.

Side note because of v15: Leaving out v16 & 17 you'd have to consider the context of "every creature". Meaning you make Him not only not equal to God, but the first of every creature, and just man, and surely not the Creator. If this is what you believe this to be true, then sadly there is very little else we can or will agree with.

[Col 1:16-17 KJV] 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Additionally I don't see where He was created before all things, just that He existed as did God the Father. The implication above is that He created them and why He created them and that they exist with His approval only.

Note: Consider the future tense of [Psa 89:27 KJV] 27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

I'm sorry to say that you assume much more than I can, by not acknowledging our Lord's Divinity and seeing Him as only a creation.

I probably will not reply to your justification to what I have written above. Why you may ask? Because, it will not be anything that I haven't heard/read before, and have found it to be a fruitless discussion here on TJ. Why I have shared what I did in this post is so that you might know where I'm coming from. Also, I hope you may also realize that this is not all that I have considered as it pertains to Scripture on this subject, with consideration to what you have shared.

Still, because you believe as you do, and I as I do, I still hold nothing against you, and will pray for you. Not that you would change your mind, but rather that He would keep you covered, and secure in His embrace.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

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Bendito said:

I wish I could be that diplomatic....Thanks Nick

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Christ4Ever said:

by not acknowledging our Lord's Divinity and seeing Him as only a creation.

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Christ4Ever said:

Dear povawiqe,

[Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Knowing the above verse is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, how then can He also be in heaven at the same time?

[Jhn 6:46 KJV] 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

[Jhn 14:9 KJV] 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

This is why many believe in the Second of the Godhead who is Jesus Christ. God the Father being the first, and the third of the Godhead is God the Holy Spirit.

Much of the difficulty with this is that Jesus is also the Son of Man. Understanding that the incarnate God was necessary as the Son of Man to be the perfect Sacrifice, helps clear up any ambiguity.

However, I'm also sure you can break down in the Greek Son of God. Son is relational, while God is divinity. So, there is only one God, in three persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Understanding why Jesus had no issue with being equal to the Father, which the Jews saw this in Him as well and tried to kill Him for it was something that provided me additional clarity. If the Jews of the day saw Him as saying & believing Himself to be so, why would/should I be hesitant in accepting Him that way as well? I understand where you are at, because I stood there as well, and is not something I could grasp quickly over any particular posting/readings/prayers/meditating on His Word etc. It took me many years to be at peace with this understanding.

[Jhn 5:18 KJV] 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

However, it was necessary for Him to become less as well, however not as you believe Him to be as a Created being.

[Phl 2:6-8 KJV] 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

How great is the Love of God!!!



Here is the issue with what you have said. You leave out what is most important and provides the context! "Begotten"! Not created! Now where you received the "first born of creation" from also requires context.

[Col 1:15 KJV] 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The context being found in v16, 17, which is below my side note.

Side note because of v15: Leaving out v16 & 17 you'd have to consider the context of "every creature". Meaning you make Him not only not equal to God, but the first of every creature, and just man, and surely not the Creator. If this is what you believe this to be true, then sadly there is very little else we can or will agree with.

[Col 1:16-17 KJV] 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Additionally I don't see where He was created before all things, just that He existed as did God the Father. The implication above is that He created them and why He created them and that they exist with His approval only.

Note: Consider the future tense of [Psa 89:27 KJV] 27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

I'm sorry to say that you assume much more than I can, by not acknowledging our Lord's Divinity and seeing Him as only a creation.

I probably will not reply to your justification to what I have written above. Why you may ask? Because, it will not be anything that I haven't heard/read before, and have found it to be a fruitless discussion here on TJ. Why I have shared what I did in this post is so that you might know where I'm coming from. Also, I hope you may also realize that this is not all that I have considered as it pertains to Scripture on this subject, with consideration to what you have shared.

Still, because you believe as you do, and I as I do, I still hold nothing against you, and will pray for you. Not that you would change your mind, but rather that He would keep you covered, and secure in His embrace.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

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Bendito said:

One thing you need to take note of Friend....We're not speaking Greek. We're speaking English which means we use a Book written in English, and English definitions....I'm perfectly aware that 'spirit' is 'pneuma ' in the Greek and I'm also aware that if you chase it around 'pneuma' will come out as 'Spirit' in English. So...please don't feed me your....Just stay with the Book.

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Bendito said:

He who is born of God CANNOT sin...Show me that in the Book.

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Bendito said:

I see.....We are not talking about you because I don't know you....Yet you constantly accuse me of being slave to sin, not wanting to be free of sin, being a false teacher etc....Because YOU know Me? Hypocrite....You do not know me. You accuse when you have no argument for your goody doctrines which have NO basis in the Word. You deny the Holy Spirit even exists because you deny the existence of spirits. Yet the WORD says we are spirit....
1 Thessalonians 5:22-24 (CJB)
22 but keep away from every form of evil.

23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy — may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. 24 The one calling you is faithful, and he will do it.

If you knew the Word you would have to agree that spirits exist and that you are one. Instead, you presume to tell God what He means when He says something. You interpret a word here, a word there to fit your warped theology, and accuse others of being sinners. It's time you woke up to the truth of God's Word.

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povawiqe said:

I already quoted that scripture to you. Here it is again,

WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD.
1 John 3:9

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povawiqe said:

I presume you are not bilingual, so let me explain something to you as someone who is bilingual, first, the bible was not written in English, it was written in Hebrew then in Greek, which means you are reading a translation, a translation by men who thought to use words they thought best matched the original words, which already makes it imprecise, because you can never carry over the exact meaning of one word in one language into another language, because they are two different languages in two different societies. This same issue happens going from English to Spanish, and vice versa, there are certain words you simply cannot translate, and have to use words that partly carry the meaning of a word from one language into the other. Only an ignorant person says, "oh, the King James Version is perfect and has no errors". So at best, you're reading the scriptures from a minified compacted and imprecise version, so it therefore behooves any serious reader of the Bible to study the scriptures from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. We are blessed that compared to men even just 100 years ago, we freely have access to the manuscripts, on the Internet, and Strong's concordance, and so many online tools at our disposal to make studying the scriptures in the original languages very easy, so there is absolutely no excuse not to read from these sources, just laziness in the part of many believers who do not want to, because they would rather rely on their leaders to tell them their interpretation of the scriptures, who are just as ignorant and misinformed just as they are.

And the second thing you should know is that language changes over time. "Gay" used to mean happy, now it means homosexual. "Spirit" used to mean airflow, in the Latin, now it means ghost or phantasm in the modern definition. So because of this, it becomes necessary to use new words in our language to maintain the original definition of the word according to the original language it was written in. The word spirit no longer carries the original definition of the Hebrew word "ruach" and the Greek word "pneuma", which is why when I use the correct word "airflow", or even if I used related words like "breath" or "wind", you are shocked and bothered by it, even though it is the correct translation and the most precise word to render those original words as, because as the meaning of the word spirit has evolved in our English language, it has also morphed the understanding of ruach/pneuma into a false idea. Let me give you a few examples:

Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Genesis 6:3

The above translation is now incorrect for the Hebrew word "ruach", because of the modernized concept of "spirit" which is no longer associated with wind nor breath, airflow. Therefore, the correct translation should now be:

Then Yehovah said, “My breath/airflow shall not abide in man aeonially, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Genesis 6:3

Because it was breath that God breathed into man, which is airflow:

then Yehovah God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath/airflow of life, and the man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7

And even in the Greek, the same thing happens, this verse is now mistranslated,

Yeshuah called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Luke 23:46

Which should now be translated as,

Yeshuah called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my breath/airflow.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Luke 23:46

Which is why the same Greek word "pneuma" is translated as wind in this other passage correctly,

The wind blows wherever it pleases…
John 3:8

Because "pneuma", and also "ruach", literally mean airflow. And this is why it is said the body without the breath is dead, not the body without the spirit,

As the body without the breath is dead, so belief without works is dead.
James 2:26

Because it was breath that gave us life, which is what was breathed into us in the beginning to bring us to life. Knowing this is of UTMOST importance because the truth of the scriptures revolves around the airflow, which is what gave us life, and there are deeper truths to be gleaned around that truth. If you do not understand this, you cannot understand practically anything.

I have an excellent study on this very subject here, The Soul, the Aeolian Body, Sleep of Death, the Mistranslation of the Word Spirit, and the Identity of the Airflow of God | Wisdom of God .

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povawiqe said:

You quote the scriptures, yet you do not understand the scriptures. To be "begotten" means to be created. To be called a "son" implies having been created, because a son is brought forth into existence after a father, not at the same time nor before a father, and since the Father has always existed, then the only time Yeshuah could've been brought into existence is from the beginning of creation. Even to be the "image" of God implies being created, because to be an "image" means to be a visible representation of God in creation, which is why even Adam, who was created, was also called the "image of God". And this is why Yeshuah said, "the Father is greater than I", and why he also exhibits limitation of knowledge to not know the hour of his own coming, because he is finite, because he is created. Even the very fact that he has a body with hands, feet, eyes, hair.... all imply he is created, because these are things that pertain to a human body created by God, his very own visible representation in creation, because God has no human body, because the human body is the work of his own hands, created. God, who is infinite, cannot be contained not even by the heavens, as the scriptures declare, so he chose to form a representation of himself in creation, Yeshuah, who existed from the very beginning, through whom God created all living souls. You lack understanding, which is why you err in your understanding of God and the son. Yeshuah is the wisdom God created in the beginning, through whom he made the world, after he brought the earth into existence by his power, since there is a distinction between the "earth" and the "world" in the scriptures,

Yehovah possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Proverbs 8:22-25

But God made the earth by his power, he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Jeremiah 10:12

For it was Yeshuah who brought the world into existence upon the earth the Father had already brought into existence on day one, which included the bringing forth of Yeshuah into existence, where the first utterance Yeshuah made after he came into existence in the beginning was "let there be light", and then in the subsequent days after all life came through him, which is why in the gospel of John it says, "all through him came to be". The word "things" is not in the original text in the gospel of John, because Yeshuah did not bring all "things" into existence, he brought all life into existence, "all".

Even so, the original text of Psalm 89:27 also reads as, "I also my firstborn will make him the highest of the kings of the earth", Psalm 89:27 Interlinear: I also first-born do appoint him, Highest of the kings of the earth. , thus again proving what I am telling you.

As such, believing this does not negate the divinity of Yeshuah, because he is indeed God, not because he is the Father, but because he has been appointed by the Father to be God in his very own creation, because God made him to be his very own representation in creation, which is why Yeshuah said, "if you see me you have seen the Father".

There are not very difficult concepts to understand, if of course you unlearn all the lies you've been taught. It is the false teachings you've been taught that make it so difficult for you to understand, and you're seared shut in darkened understanding, whereas a child, or even a non-believer, can understand these truths much easier, because they have not been intoxicated by the cup of false teachings.

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povawiqe said:

All you have done is twist scripture to justify your continuance of sin. The scriptures are clear, we stop sinning once and for all and be perfect. Unless you do this, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you continue sinning willfully, all you will do is reap destruction.

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Wired 4 Fishen said:

Scripture does not say this.
Scripture says Wilful Sinning.
If you believe you do not sin then you are sadly mistaken

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Dave M said:

@povawiqe you are rude and argumentative in your discussion I would ask that you re consider how you respond to people on this forum. If it can not be in a kind and loving and patient way, why respond at all unless it is to cause strive and division?
Learn how to respectfully disagree with people and it will help greatly. thank you for the consideration and God bless you.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

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Dave M said:

just for the record brother this is the correct translation below, I used to think as you do, but after much research and learning the proper translation my eyes were open. As you can see the difference being practices, which means lives a life style of sin, we all will stumble in sin, just speeding on the highway is a sin, but that is very different then living with a women and having sexual relations outside of marriage. God bless you


1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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Bendito said:

You must think the people on this forum are really stupid...and you're the only smart person in this side of the planet.
Of course I know the bible was not originally written in English....So let me explain to you....We speak English in Florida and the rest of this continent....We use English versions, primarily on this continent. I understand how you like to tell God what He means when He says something, (so you must be smarter than Him too), but you must admit that He's smart enough to teach us His Word...No matter what language we use. We have, at our disposal, other books that help us understand if we have trouble with a word. God has given all of us the resourses, in addition to the Holy Spirit whom He promised would be our teacher, to get a good understanding of His Word.
That being the case, we really don't need some person to come along and put us all down as imbeciles....¿entiende? You claim to be smart but God talks to anybody who will listen. And by the looks of these converstations, with you, He can't get a word in edgewise.

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Bendito said:

In the beginning was the WORD (Jesus) and the WORD (Jesus) was with God, and the WORD was God.
Jesus, the Word always was and always is. He is God....That's the Book talking....Do you call God a liar? Then God created a body for the Word to enter the Earth in...That is NOT creating the Son, its creating a body.

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Wired 4 Fishen said:

Scripture does not say this.
Scripture says Wilful Sinning.
If you believe you do not sin then you are sadly mistaken

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povawiqe said:

Willfully sinning is deliberately sinning. Why do you people refuse to understand the obvious truth explained in sooooooo much scriptures? I'll tell you why, because you don't actually want to stop sinning, so you twist the scriptures to justify your own sin.

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