Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

Brother Butch, did you have a point concerning the Law of Moses?

I did. You alluded to Ephesians 2. You said, " Don't forget, God said you are saved by Grace, through faith this is a gift of God and not of your selves....Water Baptism requires Man's participation...God does everything himself, and doesn't require man. " Yes, water baptism requires man's participation. Ephesians 2:8 says,

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 KJV)

This is what you alluded to. However, when Paul said, not of works, he was referring to the Law of Moses. He was telling the Ephesians that they are saved by grace, not by keeping the Law of Moses. This can be seen by reading a little further on in the chapter.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:1 (Eph. 2:11-16 KJV)

He says that Christ abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. That is the Mosaic Law. He says this to show that they are not saved by works (the Law of Moses). Paul isn't saying that anything a person does is a work and therefore doesn't play a role in salvation. He's saying the Mosaic Law doesn't play a role in salvation. So man's participation in water baptism doesn't negate what Paul said.

If you read all of Acts 15 you'll find that there were Jews from Jerusalem that were undermining Paul's ministry telling the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. It was such and issue that the Holy Spirit had Paul go to Jerusalem to meet with the other apostles to discuss it. Their conclusion was that the Gentiles didn't have to keep the Law of Moses.

Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.1 (Gal. 2:1-2 KJV)

Acts 15 is called the Jerusalem council. The chapter starts with these words,

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1 KJV)

When Paul got to Jerusalem there were some Jewish believers there too that said the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.1 (Acts 15:5 KJV)

So the question became, do the Gentiles need to be circumcised and keep the Law? After much disputing, they, along with the Holy Spirit, determined that no, the Gentiles don't need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.1
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (Acts 15:13-28 KJV)

 

[Born Again 2004]

I don't get your point.....water baptism , as a requirement for salvation, is likened to the Law of Moses, it is a requirement or works required by man and concerning the New Covenant, it would be an affront to God, because you are saying that God's Grace is not sufficient, which He instructs us that it is.

 

[Born Again 2004]

We are stuck in our own belief , let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Samson2020]

I don't get your point.....water baptism , as a requirement for salvation, is likened to the Law of Moses, it is a requirement or works required by man and concerning the New Covenant, it would be an affront to God, because you are saying that God's Grace is not sufficient, which He instructs us that it is.

I wouldn't call it a requirement for salvation. But since Jesus did it so did I. 3 times to be exact.

 

[Butch5]

I don't get your point.....water baptism , as a requirement for salvation, is likened to the Law of Moses, it is a requirement or works required by man and concerning the New Covenant, it would be an affront to God, because you are saying that God's Grace is not sufficient, which He instructs us that it is.

My point is that water baptism is required for salvation. You say that's an affront to God. Where do you find that in the Scriptures? Jesus said,

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk. 16:16 KJV)

In this passage from Jesus we find that "believes" and "is baptized" is present tense. "Shall be save" is future tense. That necessitates that being saved occurs after belief and baptism.

 

[Butch5]

We are stuck in our own belief , let's just agree to disagree.

Sure, but you quoted my post.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Like I said, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[PloughBoy]

The theif on the cross I don't think got Baptize.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings men,

a few years ago, my eyesight [?] swiftly deteriorated [?] and that has been a very interesting and learning experience.

I remember a few times i have been using a knife and getting nowhere or at least having difficulty cutting the required item. Now, i will have you know that i like a really well sharpened blade and i enjoy the feeling of of clean cutting edge as i sharpen my tools.

I am getting used to the fact that sometimes i am trying to cut something with the blunt edge! [fully confessed slow learner, here]

Let us remember that the Iron that sharpens iron can refer to a sword, but in doing so, let us remember also that it is a DOUBLE edged sword and ....
Lord, in your mercy to us all, help us to accept that we do need both sides sharpened and on top of that, dear Lord, help us also to remember that our sword is not for cutting another's ear off, lest how will they hear the wonderful Gospel? and you have allowed us into your word which we understand is a sword [spiritual word - s-word] so we may use that sword to fight for each other and not against each other.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

The theif on the cross I don't think got Baptize.

We're not told.

 

[Br. Bear]

Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,
Romans 11:17

Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
Romans 11:19

And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23

For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:24

 

[Samson2020]

The theif on the cross I don't think got Baptize.

True, but the thief did not receive the Holy Ghost either so he was technically never born again. Holy Ghost not given out til day of Pentecost 50 plus days later.
Begs the question of is the comma in the right place? I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. Or I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Jesus himself spent 3 days in the tomb after this so he himself was probably not in paradise whilst dead? Just a thought.

 

[Samson2020]

Jesus was baptized by John who was of the tribe of Levi, Luke 1:5. In baptizing Jesus he was presenting him ,one might say, in an OT priestly way for the ultimate
sacrifice, and Jesus was affirming that what John was doing was truly a thing from God. And even had said to John it was the proper thing to do to"fulfill all righteousness"
by baptizing him. We all know that water baptism is for repentance, but what need was there for Jesus to be baptized as he was not a sinner? Again it was to show
approval of Johns ministry and fulfill all righteousness.

 

[Sue D.]

True, but the thief did not receive the Holy Ghost either so he was technically never born again. Holy Ghost not given out til day of Pentecost 50 plus days later.
Begs the question of is the comma in the right place? I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. Or I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Jesus himself spent 3 days in the tomb after this so he himself was probably not in paradise whilst dead? Just a thought.

That theif on the cross was saved the same way all the Old Testament saints were. They placed their faith in the promised coming of the promised Messiah. Baptism is not required for salvation to be complete. It;s entirely on where a person places their faith.

 

[Samson2020]

That theif on the cross was saved the same way all the Old Testament saints were. They placed their faith in the promised coming of the promised Messiah. Baptism is not required for salvation to be complete. It;s entirely on where a person places their faith.

Well all I can say to that is the words of Jesus, who said of John the baptist, that he was the greatest man ever born of a woman, but even the least in the kingdom
was greater than he. So where does that place all the other men or women that were less than John? As the least in the kingdom is greater than the rest of
mankind they could not be in the kingdom.

I would explain how they will be eventually but you would not or could not accept it.

 

[Sue D.]

@Samson2020-- have no idea what your comments have to do with what I commented on.

 

[Br. Bear]

Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,
Romans 11:17

Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
Romans 11:19

And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23

For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:24

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Corinthians 15:23

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:23

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:18

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Revelation 1:5

And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:6

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:29

 

[Br. Bear]

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Br Bear,

Regarding being born again, Jesus said one must be born of water and the spirit. Being born of water is water baptism. That's how one enters the New Covenant. Being born of the Spirit is what I believe Paul is referring to here,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

God will use the Spirit in one to raise one from the dead. I believe this is literally what Jesus was referring to. This is resurrection. Paul alludes to this also, he said,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit. 3:5 KJV)

Here again we see one coming to life by Baptism and the Spirit.

Greetings,

Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and requested of him, “Sir, we want to see Jesus.” Philip relayed this appeal to Andrew, and both of them went and told Jesus.

But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

The crowd standing there heard it and said that it had thundered. Others said that an angel had spoken to Him.

In response, Jesus said, “This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.
John 12:20-33

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Romans 14:9

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
1Corinthians 15:35-49


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Can't answer that. All I really am sure of is Before Jacob and Esau were born God had said that he loved Jacob and Hated Esau to prove a point. That being it was his
choice to decide who were the elect, if you will, according to the flesh as Jacobs children became the 12 tribes of Israel. In effect he (Jacob) was the father of all those
tribes a true Patriarch that had power with God simply because God had chosen him.


I would submit that if one is not born again, then they will not partake of the first resurrection. Therefore extremely important, but one cannot choose themselves
into that position. Gods choice as always.

Iron sharpens iron. And I for one can always use a good sharpening.

Greetings,

I think the line that our Brother was talking about was the whole use of the word 'born-again' as we read it in the account with Nicodemus and Jesus, one night.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:19-21

It is a valid observation regarding the 'nature' of the Children of Israel, being by birthright, the children of Abraham and how that 'birth'right afforded them 'nothing' and hence, they need to be born again if they are to see the Kingdom of God [verse 3]

I am sure you have seen how we can 'believe' something to mean something often because we have been 'taught' that or even observed that is 'what it means' or similar and you have probably even discovered that about yourself throughout you walk in the faith.
What is being presented does conflict with what most would understand about those few words in John's Gospel and how churchianity at large has helped us to also consider other parts of the Bible to fall into line with that way of thinking. So we have a challenge on our hands to look at what is being presented. If that is the end of the matter, ie, Jesus was referring to Nicodemus being a 'Jew' and that the Jews had to be born again, how does that effect the rest of the Scripture that we have in the Bible? Does it hurt it in any way or can it give a little more light to the treasures at hand?

What we do need to be aware of is that we can rent our clothes and even get attitude because it goes against the flow that we are use to floating on. Before anyone gets upset about that, both the early Church and the Lord Jesus Christ did have a name for themseves regarding doing that and were persecuted accordingly, hated even. Does that mean we swallow everything? Of course not.
But let us hear out our Brother who has something to share.

I am interested to see more of the connection with Baptism and being born again in the light of the info presented regarding being born a Jew and how anyone else who is not a Jew can be baptised [if that is the case] (sticking with the thread title) if that is where our Brother is going with this.

Grace and Peace for both sides of your iron


Bless you ....><>