Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, both involve the Holy Spirit!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Jesus often used symbolism in his stories, also allegory in many of his replies. He said a Man must have have two births one from water ( his mother or physical) and a spiritual birth by the Holy Spirit. This was "tongue in cheek", of course a man wouldn't be a man or even exist if it were not because of a natural or physical birth by his mother. Nicodemus understood this but he didn't understand the second birth as he referred this to as crawling back in the womb.

 

[Hekuran]

I think there are three main possibilities for understanding this

• Jesus is simply telling Nicodemus that he has to go back to the beginning and make a fresh start. A radical overhaul of his learning and spiritual practice.
• Resurrection: no-one will see the Kingdom until they rise from the grave as a new creation
• Spiritual rebirth

All three are possible. I lean towards the last.

• From the way Jesus talks to Nicodemus, it's clear to me that he has something bigger in mind than a change of heart and direction in life.
• If it were resurrection, I think Nicodemus would not be as perplexed as he clearly was. As a pharisee, he looked forward to resurrection like the rest of us. Also, though none of us will see the kingdom in its full glory until Jesus returns, we do see it now in part.
• As Paul says, we are a new creation. It's not yet a completed work, but something utterly transformational has begun in us that can only be described in the boldest terms - 'born from above'.

 

[Born Again 2004]

What happens if you were to die before Jesus returns to this physical world?

 

[Butch5]

Greetings men,

let us remember that while we can learn from each other, we do need to learn in peace with one another if we expect the Lord to bless our learning [i am addressing men who confess to be Christ's]


may i share this portion from the Bible with you and ask that you post prayerfully and in love, that is, for the purpose of building up. None of us need to be destroyed by each other but we can grow in Grace and i for one confess that i have plenty of growing left, so please feel free to get in line if you find that you do, too.

and while we are at it, does the resurrection have anything to do with being born again?

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2Timothy 2:18-26


Bless you ....><>

I would submit that the resurrection is literally being born again.

 

[Born Again 2004]

As regard to being Born Again and resurrection....they are both made possible by the Holy Spirit.

 

[PloughBoy]

You know lot of things has been debated about Scripture and authority of the separation of the "canon of Srcripture" from the pseudographical books that has produce or given us the "Holy Scripture" [the bible] meaning [the book], with all explanation of its contents and description of each book, especially the "NT".
For a example only:
Each Gospel, Has a different perspective; with Matthew approach to. A Jewish as King. Mark presentation Jesus as the servant of GOD, Luke as a Man and John as the Son of God.. and the Letter to the Christians in Rome [Romans]. The letter to the christains at Corinth, 2 times so much confusion there and so on, the letter to the Hebrews, these letters was re copied and pass on from place to place, some times with typos. Then we have the proverbs and "songs" which Christians fell to realize their words of wisdom gathered by all kinds of people and the psalms are songs by different people, "songs of Solomon" real name is "Songs of Songs" do Christians know how many wives and girlfriend he had, over a 1000, now which number is the "Shulamite woman"?
I am not attacking "the Bible" but addressing those who claim they have read it and keep its words as a constance companion. It is a life time study. Times are getting so deceptive, we have to chew our words that we see in the word of God slowly with decisiveness. I know there are many here that do that, but we no not stop there. But we sharp iron with iron. And every now and then we cut one another. "But the wounds of a friend is much more precious than the kisses and hugs of a deceptive enemy" and I also heard this morsel as well, " I would rather have, a intelligent enemy, than have a fool for a friend". Mmmm Shalom my brothers and sisters in Christ. Just food for thought.

 

[Butch5]

I think there are three main possibilities for understanding this

• Jesus is simply telling Nicodemus that he has to go back to the beginning and make a fresh start. A radical overhaul of his learning and spiritual practice.
• Resurrection: no-one will see the Kingdom until they rise from the grave as a new creation
• Spiritual rebirth

All three are possible. I lean towards the last.

• From the way Jesus talks to Nicodemus, it's clear to me that he has something bigger in mind than a change of heart and direction in life.
• If it were resurrection, I think Nicodemus would not be as perplexed as he clearly was. As a pharisee, he looked forward to resurrection like the rest of us. Also, though none of us will see the kingdom in its full glory until Jesus returns, we do see it now in part.
• As Paul says, we are a new creation. It's not yet a completed work, but something utterly transformational has begun in us that can only be described in the boldest terms - 'born from above'.

I would submit a forth. That being that the phrase "born again" refers to Israel being born the first time as the chosen people, 'Israel is my son, my firstborn'.

I don't hold that man is a spirit so I don't really think the spiritual rebirth idea works. What I see as necessary to understand the statement is the context and historical setting. I believe the key here is the implication Jesus makes. If Nicodemus must be born again, what is the first birth? Whatever, Nicodemus thought of the first birth was clearly wrong as Jesus indicates he needed a second. I think the question is what can the first birth be that fits the context, the historical understanding, and makes sense.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings men,

let us remember that while we can learn from each other, we do need to learn in peace with one another if we expect the Lord to bless our learning [i am addressing men who confess to be Christ's]


may i share this portion from the Bible with you and ask that you post prayerfully and in love, that is, for the purpose of building up. None of us need to be destroyed by each other but we can grow in Grace and i for one confess that i have plenty of growing left, so please feel free to get in line if you find that you do, too.

and while we are at it, does the resurrection have anything to do with being born again?

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2Timothy 2:18-26


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

Regarding being born again, Jesus said one must be born of water and the spirit. Being born of water is water baptism. That's how one enters the New Covenant. Being born of the Spirit is what I believe Paul is referring to here,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

God will use the Spirit in one to raise one from the dead. I believe this is literally what Jesus was referring to. This is resurrection. Paul alludes to this also, he said,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit. 3:5 KJV)

Here again we see one coming to life by Baptism and the Spirit.

 

[Born Again 2004]

No brother you are confused, look at John 3:6 ......nothing to do with water baptism vs
6, flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit...what Jesus told Nicodemus.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Water baptism is false this can't happen with out man...God said you are saved by Grace through faith, this is a gift of God. Not of yourselves, less you would boast. You are saved by God, via the Holy Spirit, inside or outside of water!

 

[Samson2020]

I don't hold that man is a spirit so I don't really think the spiritual rebirth idea works.

I'm not trying to prove anything here but.

"Without the spirit the body is dead" Jesus gave up the Ghost and thus was dead.
We know from human relations that there is conception when a husband and wife spend time with one another and eventually there is a birth of a new human.

We who are the "Bride of Christ" have the first half of the spiritual genetics in us at birth and it is feminine just like a wifes egg. Our husband that we have been espoused
to ,Jesus Christ, gives us the other half of those spiritual genetics at our baptism in the Holy Ghost and thus a new spiritual creature is conceived.
Just as a baby in the womb can hear muffled sounds and images in daylight we who are gestating in the body of the flesh "see through a glass darkly" in exactly
the same way. We hear the Spirit but in the "still small voice", we see/understand but minimally. One day when the change comes and the adoption as sons
has become reality we will see/understand completely and our hearing will have improved immensely.

Think of Isaac as a physical example: it was through him that the promises should be fulfilled, and he was a product of a half brother and sister union that was
pretty much physically impossible. Just as our own spiritual conception seems an impossibility until we experience it.

Jesus went through the exact same process when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost at Jordan by his Father. Once his overcoming spirit was matured he BECAME A
LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. Thus God passed the Spiritual baptismal process to him just as the Baptist John proclaimed he would. However he could not do this until after he
was perfected and subsequently crucified and resurrected and glorified.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Don't confuse the Old Testament with the New. Jesus ushered in the New Covenant with his resurrection. Up to the point of his resurrection we were under the Old Covenant and Christian's were identified by water baptism. At the point of Jesus's death and subsequent ressurection,the temple veil was torn in two , signifying that God no longer resided in Holy of Holies in the temple but in the hearts and minds of men as He promised.

 

[Trevor]

Water baptism is false this can't happen with out man...God said you are saved by Grace through faith, this is a gift of God. Not of yourselves, less you would boast. You are saved by God, via the Holy Spirit, inside or outside of water!

If water baptism is false Born Again, why did Jesus go to John the baptist to be baptised himself? Matt 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age

 

[Born Again 2004]

Why not? Above all ,up to the point of his resurrection , Jessus fulfilled the law better anyone, of course he would be baptized
Don't get me wrong, it is a heart thing.
..
You can receive the Holy Spirit in or out of water. Don't forget, God said you are saved by Grace, through faith this is a gift of God and not of your selves....Water Baptism requires Man's participation...God does everything himself, and doesn't require man.

 

[Butch5]

Why not? Above all ,up to the point of his resurrection , Jessus fulfilled the law better anyone, of course he would be baptized
Don't get me wrong, it is a heart thing.
..
You can receive the Holy Spirit in or out of water. Don't forget, God said you are saved by Grace, through faith this is a gift of God and not of your selves....Water Baptism requires Man's participation...God does everything himself, and doesn't require man.

Ephesians 2:8 refers to the Law of Moses.

 

[Born Again 2004]

So , the law of Moses, of the Old Covemant?

 

[Butch5]

So , the law of Moses, of the Old Covemant?

yes

 

[Born Again 2004]

Brother Butch, did you have a point concerning the Law of Moses?

 

[Trevor]

Why not? Above all ,up to the point of his resurrection , Jessus fulfilled the law better anyone, of course he would be baptized
Don't get me wrong, it is a heart thing.
..
You can receive the Holy Spirit in or out of water. Don't forget, God said you are saved by Grace, through faith this is a gift of God and not of your selves....Water Baptism requires Man's participation...God does everything himself, and doesn't require man.

Here, Born Again, we will have to agree to disagree. Bless you