Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Br. Bear]

Anyway, it's given me plenty to think over. Thank you for taking the time to present it so clearly.

yes. That is what we are all here for ... I think? to share and encourage and grow in the Grace we have received, together, in love


Bless you ....><>

 

[Sue D.]

I'm a Gentile and worship with Gentiles --have all my life and I've lived in a lot of different places. 'We' have experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and accepted or rejected God's plan for salvation.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the World-- that He gave -- that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have eternal / everlasting life." That is referring to salvation. And the 'world' means Everyone.

And baptism by immersion is Not need to complete a person's salvation. It Does identifying a person as a Christ-follower to those around them. Their life should be showing that, also.

 

[Br. Bear]

Yes, Sue

I think from memory that a great number had John's Baptism. Does that mean they were all born again from that? Doesn't add up with what followed,

When instruction was given to go into the world and make disciples.... was that to the Jews only that they should go? as in, go only to the Jews and make disciples of them, only, baptizing them in water?


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

1 Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism saves us?

Col 2:12; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 6:3; Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

What if you haven't been baptized? Were you still buried with Him? The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, yes. But Jesus wasn't buried yet either.

Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 3:21; Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,

Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Are you rejecting God's purpose for you if you reject being baptized?

Acts 2:38; Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If I'm never baptized, are my sins still forgiven?

The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 was Gentile.
Acts 8:36; As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:38; And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Cornelius in Acts 10 was a Gentile.
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts 10:48; And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Baptism isn't just for Jews.

Gal 3:27; For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

If I was never baptized, am I still "clothed with Christ"?

I sometimes hear people say.. "it's just an outward sign of something that has already happened inside you".
Where is the scripture that says this? We hear things over and over again, and just start believing it because someone told us
it over and over again.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,

Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and requested of him, “Sir, we want to see Jesus.” Philip relayed this appeal to Andrew, and both of them went and told Jesus.

But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

The crowd standing there heard it and said that it had thundered. Others said that an angel had spoken to Him.

In response, Jesus said, “This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.
John 12:20-33

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Romans 14:9

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
1Corinthians 15:35-49


Bless you ....><>

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Butch5]

I'm a Gentile and worship with Gentiles --have all my life and I've lived in a lot of different places. 'We' have experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and accepted or rejected God's plan for salvation.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the World-- that He gave -- that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have eternal / everlasting life." That is referring to salvation. And the 'world' means Everyone.

And baptism by immersion is Not need to complete a person's salvation. It Does identifying a person as a Christ-follower to those around them. Their life should be showing that, also.

Can you supply Scripture showing that baptism isn't necessary? Remember Jesus said, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved'.

 

[Samson2020]

It is a valid observation regarding the 'nature' of the Children of Israel, being by birthright, the children of Abraham and how that 'birth'right afforded them 'nothing' and hence, they need to be born again if they are to see the Kingdom of God [verse 3]

, Jesus was referring to Nicodemus being a 'Jew' and that the Jews had to be born again,

I believe this assumption is absolutely correct as all disciples including Paul and Peter (both Jews) received the Holy Ghost thus were born again.
Acts 15 has Peter telling a crowd, composed mainly of Jews in the flesh, that God had him preach the gospel to the gentiles and believe and had purified their
hearts by giving them the Holy Ghost and made no difference between the gentiles and the Jews.

The promises made to Abraham were made to the household of faith not the genetic progeny. This can be seen
as John had said that God was able of these stones to raise children to Abraham. Understandable that they could be ground down to dirt then made into
bodies by God thus giving physical birth to more of Abrahams descendants in the flesh.

Galatians 3:18 "For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise." 19- "What purpose then does the law serve?
it was added because of transgressions, til the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; .........
21- Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which COULD HAVE GIVEN LIFE, truly righteousness would have
been by the law.'
22- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin (Jews too), that the PROMISE by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Indeed the Israelites were the keepers of the Law but the laws penalties were abolished by the crucifixion of Jesus, and this opened up a New era in which all
nations, not just Israel, were included which was the ORIGINAL PROMISE. "And all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him" Genesis 18:18, Gen 22:18,
Gen 26:4

Physical, genetic birth has nothing to do with whether one needs to be born again of the Spirit. ALL men must be in order to see the kingdom. This was hidden
from all eyes until the ministry of Jesus on earth, and even then he taught to the masses in riddles so that they wouldn't understand.

I would add that Nicodemus was not a disciple at the time of their conversation and it was only given to the disciples to understand the parables. Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10,
and indeed this may still be the case today?

 

[Ivan Chamurliev]

Well, I think that baptism in a way is completing the new birth. Jesus told Nicodemus that people need to be born of water and Spirit. John 3:5 I know that certain people interprete being born of water as a natural birth, ( and they might be right in some cases ), but to me is having a connection with the baptism. Obviously there are case when someone accepts Christ, then something happens to him, he dies and he didn't have time to get baptised as the thief being crucified on the side of Jesus for example, he didn't have time for baptism, but he still got saved and went to heaven. This anyway is not our case. In a normal life living as a christian and having Christ in our heart, we need to get baptised. This is also a kind of confession that we make in front of people, in front of church. We declare to the others that we belong to Christ, we confess it publicly with our lifestyle as well. And the word tells us that we need to confess his name, that we mustn't be ashamed of it. This is a compromise that we are making with God that we are going to serve Him, that we are going to seek His kingdom with everything and for a lifetime. and this attitude is required from us by Him. Soon or later He demands that from us. He tells us to go deeper with Him into the faith. And this is a serious decision. It can not be taken lightly. And the only one who is able to fulfill this compromise or pact with Him is the one who is born from the Spirit. Because only His Spirit in us can help us to perform this, to be able to follow Him to the end. It might sound harsh, but this isn't something to be taken lightly. Baptism can not be looked as a mere ritual, as something that everyone needs to do, because he goes to church or likes the service. No. It is a compromise taken for a lifetime with God. But this is also what He demands from us. To follow Him to the end. It might look so hard when someone didn't experience His Grace and His forgiveness.

" Do not rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven and you on earth; therefore let your words be few. " Ecclesiastes 5:2
Even though He warns us not to say or make vows lightly, He wants us to get to that position, but trough Him. He can enable us to do it. We can not be just baptised with water, because we won't be able to accomplish the vow we are making in front of Him and the others. Because at the moment we get baptised we are confessing that we belong to Him now, but how can it be if we don't have His Spirit in our life. And we can not remain just with the baptism of His Spirit ( which is very important, it is the main thing ), because soon or later He will want us to compromise ourselves for life with Him. He wants people who follow Him for a life, not people who take this as a fashion or something temporarily. They need to have at least that desire, He can accomplish it in them. And we see in the scripture people as Peter who said that they will never deny His name, but after they failed. The reason why is that they didn't have His Spirit yet at that time. ( I am speaking about Peter denying Jesus and that happen before the Holy Spirit was given ) Our compromise or word in itself doesn't accomplish His will.

I remember when I received Jesus in my life, I received His Spirit. I was so full of joy and happy. I felt the burden falling off from me. I was seeing everything in a new way. But I remember that I still wasn't sure if I was going to follow God for my lifetime. I was just living and enjoying the moment. I remember as well that I was still committing certain "small" sins deliberately. I wasn't so sure, so compromised. God was manifesting His grace over me, but it was like I was with one foot in the world and with the other with Jesus. It take long before I understood that I had to take a serious decision, to take the path to follow Jesus wherever and however He wants, with all my heart. This is when I believe, we can make decision, when we experienced something from him, when we know clearly His spirit and Grace. Before knowing that it is impossible. How can someone make a decision for something that he doesn't know. How can he appreciate His mercy, but before that he can set himself to seek it. So I understood that I had to get baptised, I had take seriously the path with Jesus. I remember that after doing that I became much more compromised and serious in my walk with Him and I stopped being in the world and in Him in the same time. I looked differently at sin.

It is like the situation if the children of Israel coming out of Egypt. What caused them to come out? What caused Pharaoh to release them? The last plague that was the angel of death crossing through the whole Egypt. We know that Egypt spiritually represents the world, the slavery of the sin and the Pharaoh represents the devil. Why is that the angel of death didn't come into their homes? Because they had marked they doorpost with the blood of the sacrificial lamb. So, we need that blood in our life to be able to come out of Egypt, out of the sin slavery. We need the blood of Christ, we need His forgiveness. Without that it is impossible. But we see as well that up to the point where they had to pass through the sea, the egyption army was still after them. Here it comes when I said even that after accepting Christ the world was still after me, there were still connections, robes that were tieing me to it.
And after crossing through that sea, through that water that represents the baptism, they got delivered completely from that army. 1 Corinthians 10:1,2 , Exodus 14:1-31 After taking that solid decision whom were they going to serve. It is quite easy when we have Christ in our life, it is complicated when we don't. That's why only water baptism doesn't save us. It is wrong for people to think that they have something in them after being baptised, but it is effective when they have Christ in them and in this way the work of salvation of God in their life is complete. Then obviously it will be a path for them to walk on with trials coming sometimes, but God is faithful and He will accomplish what He has started.

 

[Sue D.]

A person obviously has to be alive physically And then born Spiritually -- but only after the person can understand right from wrong. If a person doesn't understand his Wrong, then what is he seeing himself being saved From and To.

@Butch5 -- what about Other Scriptures that say 'to be saved' such as 1 Corinthians 15 -- that passage does Not mention baptism . Neither does Romans 10. It tells us that belief in a person's heart and confession made by mouth. And that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - again -- no mention of being baptized. So.

Possibly that particular verse is saying that baptism by immersion is something Other's can see and by That means -- others Do know that the person Has been saved. The saying "actions speak louder than words". And under 'usual' circumstances a person Does get baptized soon after their salvation.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Like I have always said you can be saved inside or outside of water. In his confusion, Jesus followed up with the doubting Nicodemus by telling him that flesh gives birth to flesh (water of the womb) and Spirit gives birth to spirit (second birth). I like Water Baptism for what it represents (an outward expression of faith). But, what I don't like is some saying it is a requirement. That is salvation by law, not Grace! GRACE, according to God , is a gift. I think if it is a gift, then it is free!

 

[B-A-C]

I don't know of anywhere in the Bible baptism was simply a "ceremony" so other people could see. At least a few times (for example the Ethiopian Eunuch)
the only people at the "ceremony" was the baptizer and the "baptizee". No crowds or witnesses to see what was happening.

 

[B-A-C]

But, what I don't like is some saying it is a requirement. That is salvation by law, not Grace!

Can you show me in "the law" where baptism was required?

 

[Butch5]

A person obviously has to be alive physically And then born Spiritually -- but only after the person can understand right from wrong. If a person doesn't understand his Wrong, then what is he seeing himself being saved From and To.

@Butch5 -- what about Other Scriptures that say 'to be saved' such as 1 Corinthians 15 -- that passage does Not mention baptism . Neither does Romans 10. It tells us that belief in a person's heart and confession made by mouth. And that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - again -- no mention of being baptized. So.

Possibly that particular verse is saying that baptism by immersion is something Other's can see and by That means -- others Do know that the person Has been saved. The saying "actions speak louder than words". And under 'usual' circumstances a person Does get baptized soon after their salvation.

There's nothing in Scripture that says baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality. That's something that's just made up. The Scriptures tell us that water baptism is for the remission of sins.

Regarding the passages you mentioned, we have to remember that Paul is addressing certain problems so he deals with what pertains to those problems. As I said in an earlier post. One of the biggest problems Paul faced was that of the Judaizers who were undermining his ministry, telling the Gentiles they needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. That's why so much of Paul's writings deal with faith and works. He's refuting the Judaizers. Baptism isn't an issue in those discussions so it's not mentioned. Suppose one's car isn't running and the mechanic says well, the fuel injectors are bad and need to be replaced. Unless you replace them the car won't run. Can we conclude from that statement that the transmission isn't necessary for the car to run? After all the mechanic didnt say anything at all about the transmission. I don't think anyone would draw that conclusion. Why? Because we know from other sources that the car needs a transmission to run. It's the same with Baptism. Paul is addressing one problem (the car won't run). He talks about faith (replace the fuel injectors). That will get the car running. He never addressed baptism (the transmision). However, we already know we need the transmission (Mark 16:16).

 

[Butch5]

Like I have always said you can be saved inside or outside of water. In his confusion, Jesus followed up with the doubting Nicodemus by telling him that flesh gives birth to flesh (water of the womb) and Spirit gives birth to spirit (second birth). I like Water Baptism for what it represents (an outward expression of faith). But, what I don't like is some saying it is a requirement. That is salvation by law, not Grace! GRACE, according to God , is a gift. I think if it is a gift, then it is free!

I believe you're misunderstanding law. in Paul's writings it's the Law of Moses.

 

[Born Again 2004]

No, the law is a form of legalism...legalism saves. Mosaic Law was legalism, doesn't have a role in Christianity; where we are saved by the free gift of Grace. No, I belive that I have no problem understanding legalism, it is you that do not understand Grace....let's stop this back and forth, can We at least agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

 

[Born Again 2004]

No B-A-C, it is not in the "Law" you know that, why the question?

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- sometimes I really wonder about you. Your views of Scripture -- salvation?!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Butch....so we do agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- sometimes I really wonder about you. Your views of Scripture -- salvation?!

No need to wonder Sue. I've spent many years studying the early Christians and my faith aligns with theirs. Since they were taught by Jesus and the apostles I think I'll be ok.

 

[Butch5]

Butch....so we do agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

I thought you didnt want to discuss with me? Yes, Jesus is Lord and Saviour