Women

[Bendito]

You are most unusual to me.

Psssst! Who is Sebastian talking to?

 

[B-A-C]

This post may get me in trouble...

There seem to be certain people who are just "trolling" around the forums. Looking to stir up trouble.
Looking to prove God and the Bible wrong in some way.

All of their threads start off the same way. They have a way of drawing some of us into them.
No one agrees with anything they are saying, yet we spend a lot of time trying to prove them wrong.

Someone who is a bigger billy goat than I am, needs to boot this troll off the bridge.

 

[amadeus2]

From fighngwrmwood TJ Women post #54 10-5-2015 8:23 P.M.


@amadeus2

How do you reconcile the different spiritual roles with the Galatians 3 verse?

I do believe women have different spiritual roles, but it's more an issue of authority, (that women should not be in authority over men), and to help to guard our hearts. I minister in a women's prison and I don't at all feel if I am led by the Spirit, feel masculine nor do I view what I do as such. Especially when dealing with hurts that are unique to what women can endure, it feels especially feminine. I do see biblical backing up in terms of how women are to appropriately interact with men, but when I read Proverbs 31, that's a description of being sprititually active, and very feminine. The numerous examples I gave before of the Spirit acting on women makes me think of Elizabeth who obeyed the Lord and said his name is John. Then she trusted the Lord with the rest and He honored that. To be passive would not to be insist on the truth.
-------(end directed just to amadeus2)


I do not have a final complete answer to your question:


“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28


God is no respecter of persons. He loves us all and has prepared rewards (and punishments?) for each person according to how he/she has worked in his/her stewardship. What is that stewardship? God knows exactly for each person. Each person on the other hand often doesn’t know his/her own role, so how can another… unless God gives that information to another?


Our specific roles at specific times is almost certainly dependent on what we have been given and our history and where we are at the moment. I have missed my own way too many times to be very critical of that of another person…again unless God has given me special information about that person. He does not always give me such information.


What we are to do depends on what we have and that is how I see God judging us:


“But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” Luke 12:48


While we may see in scripture that a woman has a certain place that is not a man’s and that a man has a place that is not a woman’s, sometimes perhaps there may be only one person in the place that is willing and able to accomplish God’s person. Will God not do what He is going to do because only a woman is available to do what we would normally believe to be a man’s job? I don’t like to speak too much in the hypothetical regarding the things of God so I may be way off on this. We, each of us need to “hear” what God is saying to us via the Holy Spirit and we need to obey. Our obedience should not be colored too much or at all by what we did the last time we were in a similar situation.


Hosea was told to marry a wife of whoredoms and he did even though in other places in scripture we are admonished not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. What we are generally required to do, or not, is not what necessarily always what we will specifically required to do, or not. We need to be paying close attention to God all of the time.


Sorry to be so wordy, but you asked and I had and have no simple answer. Don’t hesitate to ask for further clarification.

 

[Bendito]

From fighngwrmwood TJ Women post #54 10-5-2015 8:23 P.M.


@amadeus2

How do you reconcile the different spiritual roles with the Galatians 3 verse?

I do believe women have different spiritual roles, but it's more an issue of authority, (that women should not be in authority over men), and to help to guard our hearts. I minister in a women's prison and I don't at all feel if I am led by the Spirit, feel masculine nor do I view what I do as such. Especially when dealing with hurts that are unique to what women can endure, it feels especially feminine. I do see biblical backing up in terms of how women are to appropriately interact with men, but when I read Proverbs 31, that's a description of being sprititually active, and very feminine. The numerous examples I gave before of the Spirit acting on women makes me think of Elizabeth who obeyed the Lord and said his name is John. Then she trusted the Lord with the rest and He honored that. To be passive would not to be insist on the truth.
-------(end directed just to amadeus2)


I do not have a final complete answer to your question:


“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28


God is no respecter of persons. He loves us all and has prepared rewards (and punishments?) for each person according to how he/she has worked in his/her stewardship. What is that stewardship? God knows exactly for each person. Each person on the other hand often doesn’t know his/her own role, so how can another… unless God gives that information to another?


Our specific roles at specific times is almost certainly dependent on what we have been given and our history and where we are at the moment. I have missed my own way too many times to be very critical of that of another person…again unless God has given me special information about that person. He does not always give me such information.


What we are to do depends on what we have and that is how I see God judging us:


“But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” Luke 12:48


While we may see in scripture that a woman has a certain place that is not a man’s and that a man has a place that is not a woman’s, sometimes perhaps there may be only one person in the place that is willing and able to accomplish God’s person. Will God not do what He is going to do because only a woman is available to do what we would normally believe to be a man’s job? I don’t like to speak too much in the hypothetical regarding the things of God so I may be way off on this. We, each of us need to “hear” what God is saying to us via the Holy Spirit and we need to obey. Our obedience should not be colored too much or at all by what we did the last time we were in a similar situation.


Hosea was told to marry a wife of whoredoms and he did even though in other places in scripture we are admonished not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. What we are generally required to do, or not, is not what necessarily always what we will specifically required to do, or not. We need to be paying close attention to God all of the time.


Sorry to be so wordy, but you asked and I had and have no simple answer. Don’t hesitate to ask for further clarification.

I'm not pointing this post at anybody. This is just convenient place to put it.

The simple answer is that God has put many many women as ministers, prophets and key characters such as Esther who by her obedience, saved her people from extinction. There are examples from all through the bible. Lid to lid. This doctrine of women keeping silent in based on misinterpretation of the Word
We CANNOT base a doctrine on one verse. Especially when the verse is out of context.

 

[Shutterbug]

While the trolls are a nuisance, and the OP is a bit difficult to follow, trolls are sometimes a good gauge on how Forum regulars respond to more challenging debates. I'm looking at a thread listing titled, "women speaking in church" at the bottom of the page. I read through the comments and about midway the nature of the thread changed direction and became rather personal. The thread was closed and I'm left with the impression that those who took part really didn't know what to make of the topic other than some fundamental disagreements. As many threads tend to wander off topic, this one isn't much different in that regard.

Women - in six days, God made the world and rested. By request, God made woman and nobody has rested since. I'm being cheeky, but that sums up my feelings on the subject.

 

[B-A-C]

Women - in six days, God made the world and rested. By request, God made woman and nobody has rested since. I'm being cheeky, but that sums up my feelings on the subject.

Point taken. As someone once said. What if marriage wasn't intended to make us happy, but rather make us holy?

We CANNOT base a doctrine on one verse.

Well, technically there are many verses about the subject... here are a few more.

1 Cor 14:34; Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

1 Tim 2:11; Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

1 Pet 3:1; In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 Pet 3:2; as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1 Pet 3:3; And let not your adornment be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses;
1 Pet 3:4; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
1 Pet 3:5; For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands.
1 Pet 3:6; Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

Eph 5:22; Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Eph 5:24; But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

I don't think the issue is really women can't talk in church or be used in ministry, but rather that they can't have authority
over a man. Women can teach other women. Women can teach children. However women are not to be head pastors.
I know that will ruffle some feathers. But it's the only way I can reconcile the verses above.

Some people will say, well that was for that time.. and that culture.
Remember that Abraham and Sarah weren't Jews. There was no Israel back then.
Also over 3000 years had passed between the time of Abraham and the time Peter and
Paul wrote these verses. Only 2000 years have passed since then. If we start saying
certain verses only apply at certain times, then it becomes easy to start saying whatever verse I don't like no longer applies.

 

[Bendito]

Point taken. As someone once said. What if marriage wasn't intended to make us happy, but rather make us holy?



Well, technically there are many verses about the subject... here are a few more.

1 Cor 14:34; Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

1 Tim 2:11; Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

1 Pet 3:1; In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 Pet 3:2; as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1 Pet 3:3; And let not your adornment be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses;
1 Pet 3:4; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
1 Pet 3:5; For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands.
1 Pet 3:6; Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

Eph 5:22; Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Eph 5:24; But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

I don't think the issue is really women can't talk in church or be used in ministry, but rather that they can't have authority
over a man. Women can teach other women. Women can teach children. However women are not to be head pastors.
I know that will ruffle some feathers. But it's the only way I can reconcile the verses above.

Yup Check the contexts of those verses. All of them are written in "Responsa" (Responsa (Latin: plural of responsum, "answers") comprise a body of written decisions and rulings given by legal scholars in response to questions addressed to them. In the modern era, the term is used to describe decisions and rulings made by scholars in historic religious law.)

You want to look at the entire letter. Most often one has to carefully read the entire epistle to keep it all in context

 

[Dovegiven]

LOL As my father in law used to say. A man has nipples so he can tell his front from his back. No other reason.

I'm impressed

While the trolls are a nuisance, and the OP is a bit difficult to follow, trolls are sometimes a good gauge on how Forum regulars respond to more challenging debates. I'm looking at a thread listing titled, "women speaking in church" at the bottom of the page. I read through the comments and about midway the nature of the thread changed direction and became rather personal. The thread was closed and I'm left with the impression that those who took part really didn't know what to make of the topic other than some fundamental disagreements. As many threads tend to wander off topic, this one isn't much different in that regard.

Women - in six days, God made the world and rested. By request, God made woman and nobody has rested since. I'm being cheeky, but that sums up my feelings on the subject.

Yet, the Bible record shows woman to be the man's help meet indeed.

As for trolls, this is great practice for real flesh encounters "out there". I make weekly visits to two universities, taking money to my daughters going for Masters, one PhD, never ending pursuits. I've learned not to send it. While there I usually stay at guest apartments, and eat at one of the student unions. I always start up a Bible centered discussion with daughters who know my agenda. Now there are students and faculty who know me and what I stand for. There is never a time when at least one, up to a dozen at a time, stop by to join in.

What we take days and weeks to hash out here, they pop off one troll challenge a minute, demanding instant answers. I have just seconds to think then answer, some the most amazingly deep questions imaginable.

The next phase is one by one the challengers leaving with excuses. But occasionally one will sit with us and begin a serious dialogue. So I let them order on my account, eat with us, keeping them as long as possible. Most hace a Christian background, but have been pulled off into Confusiland by supposed atheists around them that are really just fleeing from God and any other authority.

Trolls often make their own web and get caught in it by their own words. Meanwhile, we get to present the truth to the whole world full of people drawn off their own track to the Savior.

 

[Bendito]

I'm impressed


Yet, the Bible record shows woman to be the man's help meet indeed.

As for trolls, this is great practice for real flesh encounters "out there". I make weekly visits to two universities, taking money to my daughters going for Masters, one PhD, never ending pursuits. I've learned not to send it. While there I usually stay at guest apartments, and eat at one of the student unions. I always start up a Bible centered discussion with daughters who know my agenda. Now there are students and faculty who know me and what I stand for. There is never a time when at least one, up to a dozen at a time, stop by to join in.

What we take days and weeks to hash out here, they pop off one troll challenge a minute, demanding instant answers. I have just seconds to think then answer, some the most amazingly deep questions imaginable.

The next phase is one by one the challengers leaving with excuses. But occasionally one will sit with us and begin a serious dialogue. So I let them order on my account, eat with us, keeping them as long as possible. Most hace a Christian background, but have been pulled off into Confusiland by supposed atheists around them that are really just fleeing from God and any other authority.

Trolls often make their own web and get caught in it by their own words. Meanwhile, we get to present the truth to the whole world full of people drawn off their own track to the Savior.

I'm sorry. This talk of trolls scares me. I'm afraid of trolls, that's why I stopped crossing bridges...Or is it another kind of troll?

 

[Sebastian]

Psssst! Who is Sebastian talking to?

the angelic Ceptor

 

[Ceptor]

The woman caught in adultery and brought before Jesus was guilty and the penalty under the law given to Moses was death, but Jesus forgave her with the simple admonition to 'go and sin no more'.

David, the apple of God's eye was twice over guilty of breaking laws for which the penalty was death in the matter of Bethsheba (adultery and murder)and forgave him. So, even if a person is guilty, should the death penalty always be applied? I think you already understand that the answer is not always, yes. Of course man seldom if ever looks to God in making his decisions.

What a powerful thought..

"I think you already understand that the answer is not always, yes."

It seems to me the case is too complex for men to decipher without God, which most do not look to for direction any longer, and everyone always looks to a yes or no quoting this or that. This includes Christians, many of which proclaim absolute "yes" or "no" in every case and quote the same Bible you just made your point with. The personal bias and emotion often overrides what God would have us learn.

I am beginning to think, after years of being indecisive, that I have been distracted with a question of absolute yes, and absolute no. But a repentant man, is not the same as a serial killer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

About the woman and man thing. I believe it is very simple. Jesus Christ Himself being God was not formed as Adam, but like every man, and every woman, though miraculous as God made His entrance, He still did so from a womb. Did Christ's very mother not have the breath of life? I will leave that obvious answer for the mind to complete.

Another example of women having the breath of life would be in the analogy of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and being God Himself in human flesh. That is to say, equal with God.

When something is "of" a thing and its nature, it is filled with the same as what it came from. The Pharisees understood that claiming to be the Son of God made Him equal with God. This is because Jesus was "of" God as Eve was "of" Adam. Therefore Eve has the same nature and breath of life as Adam.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[Ceptor]

The simple answer is that God has put many many women as ministers

Yes my dear friend, but though I believe men and women to be completely equal under God, just as a child is equal to his or her parents in God's eyes; I do not accept the notion that we are equal in positions.

There are no priests that are women(that I know of at least), and I believe many women of God are greater in accomplishing His will. But on the same note, there is a distinction in roles like fighngwrmwood pointed out in a recent post of hers.

Women are better at particular things than men, and in the same respect that is also the case with men having their particular advantages in the design God created for us.

I have had conversations with women in days past, where the discussion led to "if we were married" (don't ask lol) and have heard them tell me that I would not be head of my household. But I then ask them, when an intruder breaks in, are you going to go protect me? I'll let you guess the answer I received. The man has a responsibility to fill in his position, it is not all privileges.

----------------------------------------------------------

the angelic Ceptor

Oh poetic Sebastian, if thou only had known the wretch I am, ye would not that I were angelic, but am yet saved by God's righteous hand.

Don't tell these people I'm angelic! It's hard enough to hide my wings without them looking for them!!! :laugh:

 

[Bendito]

the angelic Ceptor

Ah...Well actually Ceptor is better than angelic. He's a son of God! He's a saint! Angels are to serve him.

 

[Bendito]

Yes my dear friend, but though I believe men and women to be completely equal under God, just as a child is equal to his or her parents in God's eyes; I do not accept the notion that we are equal in positions.

There are no priests that are women(that I know of at least), and I believe many women of God are greater in accomplishing His will. But on the same note, there is a distinction in roles like fighngwrmwood pointed out in a recent post of hers.

Women are better at particular things than men, and in the same respect that is also the case with men having their particular advantages in the design God created for us.

I have had conversations with women in days past, where the discussion led to "if we were married" (don't ask lol) and have heard them tell me that I would not be head of my household. But I then ask them, when an intruder breaks in, are you going to go protect me? I'll let you guess the answer I received. The man has a responsibility to fill in his position, it is not all privileges.

----------------------------------------------------------




Oh poetic Sebastian, if thou only had known the wretch I am, ye would not that I were angelic, but am yet saved by God's righteous hand.

Don't tell these people I'm angelic! It's hard enough to hide my wings without them looking for them!!! :laugh:

Ceptor you are NOT a wretch. You are a blood bought son of God. You are the righteousness of God when you walk in Love, when you walk in your anointing,which by the way is the same anointing that Jesus has. And you are seated with Jesus on the right hand of God.

'Member dat!

 

[Bendito]

THE DARK FIRE WILL NOT AVAIL YOU

FLAME OF UDUN

Wow! Sebastian ....Are you ok?

 

[Ceptor]

Hey, it looks like one of those things that cowered in Christ's presence.

Matthew 8:28-29

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Excellent point Sebastian.

 

[Bendito]

Hey, it looks like one of those things that cowered in Christ's presence.

Matthew 8:28-29

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Excellent point Sebastian.

Awwww Da poor babeeeee. LOL

Sebastian take to whatevertheyares and call in the morning.

 

[Ceptor]

lol, I believe my edit caught you there Bendito.. :whistle

Now that's rich! :laugh:

 

[Bendito]

lol, I believe my edit caught you there Bendito.. :whistle

Now that's rich! :laugh:

Bendito sticks his tongue out at Ceptor..

 

[Curtis]

Does the Bible anywhere say anywhere at all that Women have the "breath of wind/Spirit" in them?

It doesn't count if Adam got it breathed into him and then Eve was made from his rib, -doesn't count.

Does it anywhere at all say that women have that immortal breath of Life, ooor, how to put it.. U know what I mean.
Is there any mention at all about women being in heaven, ooor, if it says anything at all anywhere which means they have the "the breath of wind/Spirit" in them? Anything at all? Please see if you can find any Scripture which says they do, and if you find any, please write it below.

Thank yuu berry much!

Jesus and his Father are totally cool n stuff, Like ICE.,,Ice Club Soda-ICE (that's some hardcore ICE).

.

When God breathed into Adam, he was also breathing into Eve, as woman came from man, but man does not exist as he is born of women.

The word, "woman" means a "man" with a "womb" hence "wo-man"