Bendito
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Wow!! Are you serious? Really?! I did not mention your name. I was talking about a question. You get to relax now because as I said. You're plenty good enough for me. I am in no way against you. Chill
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Wow!! Are you serious? Really?! I did not mention your name. I was talking about a question. You get to relax now because as I said. You're plenty good enough for me. I am in no way against you. Chill
Bendito
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Well ALL of the Old Covenant is relevant today. If you don't know anything about the death penalty in there, I would suggest that you do your own research. Start at the beginning and read. Learn for yourself. Stop trying to climb on me for your lack knowledge
Sebastian
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I just saw you made the 'advocating of death sentence' and wanted to gift an opportunity of correction of error; this whole me haven taken offence is all just a mistake of communication-sync I believe.
Sebastian
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Error or elusiveness , as I see it; sure it's relevant (it's the Scriptures we are talking about after all (three-fold cheer for the Scriptures, Wooh!^^
)), yet you are either saying you think that the laws of Moses and such is still, ehm, "exactly the same in the way we are to behave in relation to those moral "sayings", or "laws" or what they ought to be called (rhetorical pondering), -that Jesus etc didn't change a lot of things about the moral law with the according punishments etc; so either That, or we are both on somewhat the same ground in regards to moral laws with their punishments etc have been changed quite a lot in various ways by Jesus' Life etc, but that you - like - hmm,, avoid how that goes together with you advocating death sentence still (despite the way Jesus' Life etc changed the Law). I am still curious tho if you remember reading the advocating of death sentence in the new testament anywhere, advocated by Jesus or like a prophet or some really "close-to-God"-human.
Bendito
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Oh? I believe that in certain cases the death penalty is justified and right. Period I said it and I do not apologize. Thank you for your most magnanimous gesture though. My opinion lines up with the bible. If I make a mistake in future, as I do often, please extend this offer again?
Bendito
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Error or elusiveness , as I see it; sure it's relevant (it's the Scriptures we are talking about after all (three-fold cheer for the Scriptures, Wooh!^^
I am still curious tho if you remember reading the advocating of death sentence in the new testament anywhere, advocated by Jesus or like a prophet or some really "close-to-God"-human.
We should not expect God to have to repeat Himself in the New Testament if what He said in the Old Testament still applies. Yet people often think that if the New Testament does not specifically state something, it must not be true. However, God’s laws are to be considered binding, unless He tells us there is a change. For example, in the Old Testament God commanded animal sacrifice, so why do we not have it today? We do not just ignore the law because sacrificing animals is distasteful to us, nor do we really believe that God changed and “became more civilized.” Rather, the New Testament specifically tells us that animal sacrifices were made unnecessary because Christ was a permanent sacrifice. So there was a change in the law and God told us of that change.
There are many people who will admit that the Old Testament supports the death penalty, but deny that the New Testament does also. That is just not the case, as we will now show. The first thing to notice in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ never said anything against the death penalty. In fact, he specifically stated that he had not come to put an end to the Law. [1] Even when he appeared before Pilate, Jesus never denied that Pilate had the legal authority to execute him. If he were against the death penalty, this would have been a good place to say it. In fact, there is no record of any person in the Bible stating that the death penalty is wrong in the eyes of God.
People sometimes say that Jesus taught us to love our fellow man, as if the death penalty were not loving. But God is love, and He commanded the death penalty for certain crimes. Furthermore, Jesus got his teaching on love from the Old Testament. When Jesus said the second greatest commandment was to “love your neighbor as yourself,” he was quoting Leviticus 19:18. The Law of Moses did teach love, and part of that love for people and society was to protect them from evil by enforcing the Law, which included the death penalty.
When something is clearly established in the Old Testament as the will of God, it does not need to be repeated word by word in the New Testament so we will know that it is still the will of God. When God wants to change something, like His laws concerning animal sacrifice or circumcision, He tells us. The proper way to interpret Scripture is to believe that God’s will is constant unless He tells us He has new rules for us. In the case of capital punishment for murderers, kidnappers, etc., not only does God not say He changed His mind in the New Testament, He confirms what He said in the Old Testament.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
(8) We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
(9) We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
(10) for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders [man-stealers] and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.
It is noteworthy that these verses in the New Testament say that the Law is good if it is used properly, and then go on to say that the Law was made for people such as murderers. If God had changed His mind about what He said in the Old Testament, and decided that we should not execute criminals, this would have been the perfect place to say so. Surely it is not good exegesis of Scripture to read that “the Law is good” and was made for murderers, kidnappers and the like, and then say that according to the New Testament we should not execute criminals.
These verses in Timothy echo Romans 7:12, which says, “So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” It is important to note that murder, perjury and kidnapping, crimes we have examined in this booklet, are all specifically mentioned in the New Testament in the context of the Law being good and made for such people. In verse 10 above, the NIV has “slave traders” when the Greek text actually has “man-stealers.” In the ancient world, most people were kidnapped for money. Today, kidnappers sometimes kidnap for ransom money, but in the ancient world the easy money came from selling the person as a slave, which worked especially well if the one kidnapped could not speak the language of those he or she was sold to. The familiar story of Joseph being sold by his brothers into slavery is a good example. Since slavery was common in Bible times, kidnapping someone and then selling him or her as a slave in another country was a way to get quick money. Thus, while the NIV translation can be defended culturally, it is really too narrow. Many other versions have either the more literal “men-stealers” or the more modern “kidnappers,” which does include slave traders.
It is clear that the Apostle Paul did not consider the death penalty an ungodly thing. When he was on trial for supposedly causing riots across the Roman world (Acts 24:5), he made the following statement: “If I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I refuse not to die” (Acts 25:11). It can hardly be imagined that Paul would say such a thing to a Roman governor if in his heart he felt the death penalty was wrong. Since Paul was a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-29) and was being accused by Jews, he could probably have found a way to save his life, so it would not have made sense for him to mention the death penalty if he believed it was wrong. Acts 24:26 says that the Roman governor was hoping for a bribe, a fact that Paul could not have been ignorant of. Thus, a study of the New Testament reveals that it supports the death penalty just as the Old Testament does.
Endnotes
[1] Jesus Christ ended the Levitical Law governing worship, animal sacrifice, etc., but he did not end the moral law or civil as represented by the 10 Commandments.
Sebastian
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I will lay forth 2 concluding lines, the first putting us on even ground and ending our difference, and the other putting us at indifference which is un-curable, -unto which I would welcome a brief friendly "f*ck you that makes no f*cking sense whatsoever dude (it is in Good order as I see it (no offence thought upon or meant, you are not wrong in anything you wrote with me just now if I recall correctly, being very frank and mannerful and very admirable indeed in my eyes yes):
Firstly: I agree with you that God advocates death sentence even now, in the following way;
God the Father advocates death sentence,
God the Son does not advocate death sentence,
God as The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, (-combined, uknow), advocates death sentence: This has been divinely revealed to me, I believe and have faith in.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Secondly; I do not think there is not more to the story than That, by which I mean, and this is HIGHLY controversial and as clouded anything may be in this forum (people be warned, and please say out loud I am crazy or delusional or something similar if you feel an urge to tell me how luny this is); by that I mean I believe there are more than God as the intertwinement of THE THREE just mentioned to make up the soundest JUDGmend ~atleast for the present time being.
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.
Firstly: I agree with you that God advocates death sentence even now, in the following way;
God the Father advocates death sentence,
God the Son does not advocate death sentence,
God as The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, (-combined, uknow), advocates death sentence: This has been divinely revealed to me, I believe and have faith in.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Secondly; I do not think there is not more to the story than That, by which I mean, and this is HIGHLY controversial and as clouded anything may be in this forum (people be warned, and please say out loud I am crazy or delusional or something similar if you feel an urge to tell me how luny this is); by that I mean I believe there are more than God as the intertwinement of THE THREE just mentioned to make up the soundest JUDGmend ~atleast for the present time being.
~-~-~-
.
Sebastian
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gotta write I see now some semantical error in what I wrote just a moment ago, buuuut (-for example "putting us on even ground" (maybe u don't agree with that "Jesus' God's Son" 'advocates not' death sentence)), heck -I'm far from perfect.
off to bed with I now!
off to bed with I now!
amadeus2
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The animal sacrifice of the OT was perhaps a type or shadow of our killing of our beast nature today. The killing of our beast nature (our beasts) is possible through that which Jesus provided. Remember the old statement made probably originally by Augustine (if my memory is correct) that the NT is in the OT revealed and the OT is in the NT revealed. The sum total of scripture does go together for God to speak to us, if we have the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear".
The natural man's death penalty in a sense is meaningless, because all natural men (both male and female) are born dead in the eyes of God. Life only comes through Jesus but many have not acknowledged or accepted and therefore have not received. They remain dead. Having said that I would not state absolutely that man's death penalty is wrong. I would say that the administration of it without absolute proof that the accused person is guilty is wrong. Then we get into what is absolute proof. God knows, but how often does man? Has any man who received due process under man's law prior to his execution ever been proven innocent of the charges made against him?
Being able to define "love" as it applies to God in the words of men is a good thing, but applying it as Jesus did is not necessarily the same, is it?
The woman caught in adultery and brought before Jesus was guilty and the penalty under the law given to Moses was death, but Jesus forgave her with the simple admonition to 'go and sin no more'.
David, the apple of God's eye was twice over guilty of breaking laws for which the penalty was death in the matter of Bethsheba (adultery and murder)and forgave him. So, even if a person is guilty, should the death penalty always be applied? I think you already understand that the answer is not always, yes. Of course man seldom if ever looks to God in making his decisions.
amadeus2
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Scripture does, I believe, make a spiritual distinction between the man's role and the woman's role. The man's role is the active one. When a person (be it a male or a female) is ministering as led by the Spirit of God the person is in the man's role.
The female's is the inactive role. When a person (be it male or female) is being ministered to by someone in the man's role that person is in the woman's role.
When we are talking about the carnal or natural roles of men and women in a carnal or natural marriage, we are not on precisely the same subject as I understand it.
The female's is the inactive role. When a person (be it male or female) is being ministered to by someone in the man's role that person is in the woman's role.
When we are talking about the carnal or natural roles of men and women in a carnal or natural marriage, we are not on precisely the same subject as I understand it.
Bendito
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Jesus used the situation of the woman caught in adultery as a teaching tool. Killing her would not have been just at all...Why not? What of the man she was with? No penalty for him? How unjust!! That's not God at all. Jesus forgave the woman but if the people had been adamant about following the law she would have died. Fortunately Jesus handled it in such a way that the people saw that she was no different than they
Did Jesus take a murderer and forgive him....Well truly He would have but there were still civil laws to appease. Even today, in states that have the death penalty.....The wife of the victim may forgive the killer of her husband but the murderer still dies of lethal injection.
So yes. I do support a death penalty for some crimes. It would give justice and it would lower crime rates.
LOL It is interesting how this discussion is morphing from Women to the Death Penalty.....
fightngwrmwood
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@amadeus2
How do you reconcile the different spiritual roles with the Galatians 3 verse?
I do believe women have different spiritual roles, but it's more an issue of authority, (that women should not be in authority over men), and to help to guard our hearts. I minister in a women's prison and I don't at all feel if I am led by the Spirit, feel masculine nor do I view what I do as such. Especially when dealing with hurts that are unique to what women can endure, it feels especially feminine. I do see biblical backing up in terms of how women are to appropriately interact with men, but when I read Proverbs 31, that's a description of being sprititually active, and very feminine. The numerous examples I gave before of the Spirit acting on women makes me think of Elizabeth who obeyed the Lord and said his name is John. Then she trusted the Lord with the rest and He honored that. To be passive would not to be insist on the truth.
-------(end directed just to amadeus2)
In terms of the death penalty conversation, and I am big into the law being fulfilled Bendito, but what you wrote seems to me to conflict with Matthew 5.
We are to obey the law, but just as Martin Luther King Jr was a figurehead to rightfully lead our country, (and one of my heros is John Lewis - quick note - that man is amazing and a legend in our own day -) to a more just system, I find that G-d is well able to handle the death penalty Himself, like with Ananias and Sapphira. There is no example of that commanded of the apostles, although I would argue exile is was.
What I find more disturbing though was the blame shift to those other people that deserve to die that do awful things like traffick. What I was getting at is that our lifestyles make that kind of thing possible. I was listening to a podcast today by Chip Ingram on Human Sexuality and he said that 40% of Christian men hit porn sites. And in increasing number of men and women are having all kinds of issues due to immorality in our culture.
I wasn't trying to say look at those bad people trafficking in other countries, though I shudder to think of it and know I am very privileged. I was aiming closer to home, myself included, simply by failure to pray or have a confrontational conversation with someone who has confessed sin area or struggle, or follow what is going on with younger people around here. You don't have to be sexually immoral to contribute to the problem. But if we say, it's their problem and they deserve to die - well... how does that help anyone and what does that do?
I'm not a 5 point Calvinist but I do believe in my own depravity. I believe the Lord looks at me in love because of His Son. And with that incredible honor, then I have to do something about both those that are still in darkness - whether aggressor or victim - and those who are light being persecuted. We don't get to choose who we love because we were loved before we had any choice at all.
Elisabeth Elliot, a pretty active gal in her day and another hero of mine, wrote, "G-d is G-d. I dethrone Him in my heart if I demand that He act in ways that satisfy my idea of justice. In the same spirit that taunted, "If Thou be the Son of G-d, come down from the Cross." There is unbelief, there is even rebellion, in an attitude which says, "God has no right to do this to five men unless..."
The problem with the death penalty is it is man's action on a life. He is well able to give and take.
Matthew 5:38“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. "
How do you reconcile the different spiritual roles with the Galatians 3 verse?
I do believe women have different spiritual roles, but it's more an issue of authority, (that women should not be in authority over men), and to help to guard our hearts. I minister in a women's prison and I don't at all feel if I am led by the Spirit, feel masculine nor do I view what I do as such. Especially when dealing with hurts that are unique to what women can endure, it feels especially feminine. I do see biblical backing up in terms of how women are to appropriately interact with men, but when I read Proverbs 31, that's a description of being sprititually active, and very feminine. The numerous examples I gave before of the Spirit acting on women makes me think of Elizabeth who obeyed the Lord and said his name is John. Then she trusted the Lord with the rest and He honored that. To be passive would not to be insist on the truth.
-------(end directed just to amadeus2)
In terms of the death penalty conversation, and I am big into the law being fulfilled Bendito, but what you wrote seems to me to conflict with Matthew 5.
We are to obey the law, but just as Martin Luther King Jr was a figurehead to rightfully lead our country, (and one of my heros is John Lewis - quick note - that man is amazing and a legend in our own day -) to a more just system, I find that G-d is well able to handle the death penalty Himself, like with Ananias and Sapphira. There is no example of that commanded of the apostles, although I would argue exile is was.
What I find more disturbing though was the blame shift to those other people that deserve to die that do awful things like traffick. What I was getting at is that our lifestyles make that kind of thing possible. I was listening to a podcast today by Chip Ingram on Human Sexuality and he said that 40% of Christian men hit porn sites. And in increasing number of men and women are having all kinds of issues due to immorality in our culture.
I wasn't trying to say look at those bad people trafficking in other countries, though I shudder to think of it and know I am very privileged. I was aiming closer to home, myself included, simply by failure to pray or have a confrontational conversation with someone who has confessed sin area or struggle, or follow what is going on with younger people around here. You don't have to be sexually immoral to contribute to the problem. But if we say, it's their problem and they deserve to die - well... how does that help anyone and what does that do?
I'm not a 5 point Calvinist but I do believe in my own depravity. I believe the Lord looks at me in love because of His Son. And with that incredible honor, then I have to do something about both those that are still in darkness - whether aggressor or victim - and those who are light being persecuted. We don't get to choose who we love because we were loved before we had any choice at all.
Elisabeth Elliot, a pretty active gal in her day and another hero of mine, wrote, "G-d is G-d. I dethrone Him in my heart if I demand that He act in ways that satisfy my idea of justice. In the same spirit that taunted, "If Thou be the Son of G-d, come down from the Cross." There is unbelief, there is even rebellion, in an attitude which says, "God has no right to do this to five men unless..."
The problem with the death penalty is it is man's action on a life. He is well able to give and take.
Matthew 5:38“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. "
Dovegiven
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So consider that Adam was made of clay, a body after the model of God himself, brought to life by the breath of God.
There was an interval of God and Adam screening out all other living organisms as a suitable help meet for Adam. Even Chimps were excluded. So were dogs, and cats, and birds.
Once that was settled, Adam was put into a deep sleep. In that sleep God took some DNA from Adam, fashioning it to use Adam's flesh and bone to form the woman. It isn't know how long that took.
One thing for certain is that Eve didn't come straight from dirt like Adam did. She came out of the pinnacle of God's creation. from Adam's very flesh and bone. That makes her very special, and so are all women after her.
Even when not a Christian I was taught to run to open doors for any woman. I was taught to hold women in great admiration and respect.
I will stick with the idea that God shared the gift of life Adam was given, with Eve, who had her beginning from the innermost parts of Adam. She received life from God through the life God gave Adam. A physical testimony of Adam's contribution to the advent of woman is his nipples. What man doesn't have them? Why else should men have them, none of which bear children of a womb? There is no other plausible explanation. Eve inherited the womb, had every right to be a living spirit person with a soul living in a body.
Jeremiah 1:4-7 (KJV)
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
He knew Jeremiah, and everyone else before being born, before conception. He wrote our parts in his book.
Psalm 139:11-16 (KJV)
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Whoever is born out of a woman's womb was already known to God. We are expected! So was every woman, already set to receive what any man should receive for life. Man or woman, all are among the Whosoever that should call upon the name of the Lord.
Bendito
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LOL As my father in law used to say. A man has nipples so he can tell his front from his back. No other reason.
Ceptor
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Grief Bendito! I'm not sure it's relevant... But it's hilarious! :laugh:
Bendito
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ROFL Sorry. It just popped into my head and out of my fingers.
