Is it faith alone??

[Peace Seeker]

Salvation is not so difficult. The scriptures say that without faith it is impossible to please God, but I find nowhere where it says without works we can't please Him. And it is only our faith that justifies us : “But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” —Romans 4:5

The Apostle Paul did more works than most of us could ever hope to do, even if we had the ability and time to (etc.). So he of all people would have had the right to say, "you better do, do, do, or else!!". But he didn't, because he rightly understood the power and value of faith. Faith trumps everything. Abraham was the father of those who have faith, not works. The father of those who have works are the Pharisees.

I'm sure most of us here know of Titus 3:5, but I want to post it anyway : “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...”

What strikes me in this verse is that even though the works are righteous, they are not what saves us. And if they don't save us, how can adding them to faith (which does save us) save us any more? Faith saves us, righteous works don't. It's great to be loving and Christ-like to your fellow man, but if you're doing it out of perceived necessity you're doing it in vain.

If works are necessary for salvation, then how much must be done? What is the magic number of works needed to get to heaven? If even one work is necessary, it is no longer grace. God will have no one boast in His presence, that's why it is grace through faith, not of works, that saves us, according to His mercy. No one will enter heaven and boast about all the things he did, he will simply enter in based on Jesus' imputed righteousness, justification and shed blood.

On a side note, there is not ONE instance in the whole New Testament where anyone who was healed by Jesus did some "work" in order to receive it.
The only work they did was the work of faith, and that's the only thing that ever mattered to Jesus. He healed them because of their faith, and in the same way, He heals (saves/restores) our souls because of our faith, and nothing else. That's what Jesus does, He GIVES, He never takes!

He loved us before we loved Him, He saved us when we had no way of doing it ourselves, He freely forgave us all our vile sins, for free. He did everything for us, we contributed nothing to it, so where does this payment system called "works" come from? I can understand one's having a deep sense of wanting to "give back to God", out of a heart of gratitude because he understands the magnitude of what God did for him, but this is not a requirement of God that we pay him back, so to speak.

When James said faith without works is dead he was contrasting real faith with fake faith and merely meant that if you have the light of Jesus in you it will shine out from you. He didn't mean you have to work at shining that light! If one has to work at shining that light, meaning he stresses about it, or acts like some kind of performance-based busybody for Jesus, worried that his salvation is dependent upon his keeping the "works machine" going, then in all humility I believe it's not his works that are the problem, rather it is his faith.

Also, if works have to be stressed over and done like chores getting checked off on some kind of self-fashioned "things to do to be saved list" (it seems like that is how some people perceive it to be akin to), that sounds pretty phoney and hypocritical to me. Is God our taskmaster? Did He say, "come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest"?, or was it not rest, but instead, " come to me and I will give you some chores to perform"?

And to those who believe in faith+works for salvation, do you do them because you think you have to in order to be saved, or because you take joy in doing them? There is a big difference. God paid a heavy price for us and what He gave to us was free. Thank Him for that gift and for His rest, and regarding your life and salvation let Him take care of all the details. He can handle them a lot better than you or I can.

 

[Boanerges]

Obedience is the child of faith and not vice-verse. Obedience without faith is not pleasing to God. Though all our works be burned away we can be saved (even as by fire) but without faith we will never know Him or His great salvation. And in fact we are told repeatedly that:
works cannot and don bot save us but are instead a demonstration (the fruit of) the faith working in us. It is God and God alone , by His Holy Spirit that should lead us into these demonstrations of our faith in Him
the works we are to do are not our works but ( like Jesus earth walk) the only works to perform are (Joh 5:19, Joh 10:37-38 ) the Father's works.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[brakelite]

Obedience is the child of faith and not vice-verse. Obedience without faith is not pleasing to God. Though all our works be burned away we can be saved (even as by fire) but without faith we will never know Him or His great salvation. And in fact we are told repeatedly that:
works cannot and don bot save us but are instead a demonstration (the fruit of) the faith working in us. It is God and God alone , by His Holy Spirit that should lead us into these demonstrations of our faith in Him
the works we are to do are not our works but ( like Jesus earth walk) the only works to perform are (Joh 5:19, Joh 10:37-38 ) the Father's works.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Jesus speaking...."But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness"....(Matt. 6:33)

Yes, it is only faith, but to what purpose? Just so we can get to heaven and that's it? We have this wonderful gift of faith and exercise it for just our benefit, for our own selfish eternal ends? Jesus said we must seek the kingdom of God yes, and we ought always be grateful for the salvation/redemption through the shed blood that makes that possible, but Jesus said that we , in equal importance to the kingdom, seek also God's righteousness.
I think we ought to know what precisely God's righteousness is.

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

It is evident that the righteousness which comes to us as a free gift by faith is the righteousness of God....so what is the righteousness of God?

Psalm 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.


The commandments of God are righteousness...not just in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God.

Isa. 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

They who know righteousness are those in whose heart is God's law, thus the law of God is the righteousness of God. We can prove this another way....

All unrighteousness is sin....1 John 5:17 and whosoever commits sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4

Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness, therefore sin and unrighteousness are the same. So if unrighteousness is transgression against the law, surely righjteousness must be obedience to the law. Now we need to know "what law"?

It is the law which says "thou shalt not covet". because Paul tells us that is was that law which convinced him of sin. (Romans 7:7. The law of ten commandments then, is the measure of the righteousness of God. Since it is the law of God, and is rightoeusaness, it must be the rightoeusness of God. In fact, there really is no other righteousness. It is a written manifrestation of the character and nature of God. God is also love, and Paul tells us that love is the fulfilling of the law. Thus if we are to seek God's righteousness, then we are to seek obedience, throigh faith, to God's law, by love. Thus rather than doind away with the law, (how can it be possible to do away with God's righteousness) through love we establish the law. All by faith. Not our righteousness, but God's.

So Solomon was perfectly correct and agreed with the text of Matt. 6:33 when he said "Let us hear the conclusion to the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether they be good, or whether they be evil." Eccl. 12:13,14.

 

[Boanerges]

I am the righteousness of God in Christ as He has become righteousness for me. It was never about my own righteousness as it is impossible for man and his best effort a filthy rag.

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

And of course for the people of the new covenant putting ourselves under the Law is considered a curse:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It is best to walk in communion with the Holy Spirit just as Jesus (our perfect example did). Led of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit and walking only in the power of the Spirit that was the way of our Lord and is now our way. He came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it's demands for us . The Holy Spirit will never lead us against God's will nor His Word. So instead of striving to fulfill rules and regulations we are led of the Holy One in all truth and righteousness. The purpose is plain, that we may be the sons of God, live and dwell in fellowship and communion with Him and bring Him glory. For one led of the Spirit there is no greater delight than doing His will and pleasing Him. This is a restoration of the fellowship lost in the garden when Adam fell.

The great Apostle Paul whom you quoted did indeed declare the Law a good teacher but positively declared that we are no longer under the Law but in the new and better covenant we are lead of the Spirit. Why would anyone want to leave being a son to become a servant?

 

[brakelite]

The great Apostle Paul whom you quoted did indeed declare the Law a good teacher but positively declared that we are no longer under the Law but in the new and better covenant we are lead of the Spirit. Why would anyone want to leave being a son to become a servant?

Hi. We are not under the law because we are no longer under its condemnation. The law however still stands. I agree with much of what you have written, but I don't think you go quite far enough. Notice what Paul says here....

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:....now, to what purpose did Jesus die and condemn sin in the flesh....?
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God calls us to live righteous and holy lives. We cannot do so in our own strength, but what is impossible for man, is possible for God. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Thus the righteousness in which we live is not our own, but is that righteousness which Jesus said we are to hunger and thirst for. A righteousness that is not an abstract theory, but a righteousness that is reflected in a sanctified life. Wholly conformable to God's commandments. Grace gives us more than just eternal rewards. It also gives us power to become children of God. A gospel without the power is only half the gospel.

Oh, and Paul tells us that if we are children, we are servants.....servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[jari]

God calls us to live righteous and holy lives. We cannot do so in our own strength, but what is impossible for man, is possible for God.

do you believe there's punishment in failing to live this righteous life?
because you said we are free from judged by law.

 

[Boanerges]

It is okay not to agree on everything. I like to present my views, read others views and hopefully we learn from each other as iron sharpens iron.
I believe Christ is my righteousness and I do not think I can improve on Him. I believe we are servants meant to display His manifested Nature to the lost. As we abide in that heavenly Vine and righteousness righteousness is only one of the many attributes we display as we put on Christ. I also agree we are to live (manifest ) a righteous life but simply believe that is possible to achieve this by rules but can be demonstrated only as we walk in the power of the Spirit of God who leads in all truth. Many want the same destination but describe their methods of arriving differently and I do not expect us all to agree on everything until Jesus comes back and sets it all straight. Until then, let us love one another.

many blessings and much love in Christ,
your brother Larry.

 

[brakelite]

do you believe there's punishment in failing to live this righteous life?
because you said we are free from judged by law.

Hi Jari. If one has received Christ, how can one fail to live a righteous life?I have already proved that not only was Christ the Lawgiver at Sinai, but I have also proved that the law of ten commandments is a reflection of Christ's character. If we receive Christ into our lives, we receive the law also. His promise is to place His law in our hearts, and He promised also that if we hunger and thirst for righteousness, then we will be filled. How can we fail? If we have received Christ. then the righteousness of the law will be reflected through us as sure as apples grow on apple trees. It is a natural fruit of being connected to the vine. If your life does not however reflect the righeousness of the law, then the only concl;usion one can make is that
a. you are not connected or
b. you are refusing all that Christ has to offer. You aren't yet fully surrendered.
The question ought not be what punishment awaits if I fail, (because it is not a matter of 'if') the question should be "if my life isn't measuring up to the righteousness of the law of Christ then have I truly and fully received Christ?"

Look at the promises:
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Surely all the fulness of God must include the righteousness of God!
And that very last verse is the whole reason we ought to obey God's commandments. To bring glory to Him.

Phil. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[jari]

Hi Jari. If one has received Christ, how can one fail to live a righteous life?I have already proved that not only was Christ the Lawgiver at Sinai, but I have also proved that the law of ten commandments is a reflection of Christ's character. If we receive Christ into our lives, we receive the law also. His promise is to place His law in our hearts, and He promised also that if we hunger and thirst for righteousness, then we will be filled. How can we fail? If we have received Christ. then the righteousness of the law will be reflected through us as sure as apples grow on apple trees. It is a natural fruit of being connected to the vine. If your life does not however reflect the righeousness of the law, then the only concl;usion one can make is that
a. you are not connected or
b. you are refusing all that Christ has to offer. You aren't yet fully surrendered.
The question ought not be what punishment awaits if I fail, (because it is not a matter of 'if') the question should be "if my life isn't measuring up to the righteousness of the law of Christ then have I truly and fully received Christ?"

Look at the promises:
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Surely all the fulness of God must include the righteousness of God!
And that very last verse is the whole reason we ought to obey God's commandments. To bring glory to Him.

Phil. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

so I'm picking you mean salvation is based on "fully" accepting Christ. Kinda like bending your heart to like God and what He has to offer.
And that one should be always accepting Christ fully to walk in saved status.
Am I correct, is this is what you believe?

 

[Boanerges]

Bakelite, I am sure we can both agree on this:
The fruit of the Spirit (the result of the infilling by and walking in) breaks no law.


I can certainly see how the Law (which I am not required to follow) when used as a ruler, or indicator of what goes on in the heart of a believer. Jesus taught we should be fruit inspectors and a good tree bears good fruit.

One who abides in heaven's Vine will have the life of that Vine flowing in and through them and that will also by it's very nature produce the same fruit if the Spirit which is Love Himself manifest in us.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Much love and many blessings in Christ,
your b(r)other Larry.

 

[Stan53]

This passage is one of the most abused and least understood passages in the Bible.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace = Charis
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Grace is indeed a free gift but what sort of gift is it?

Grace is the divine influence on the heart of man and grace teaches us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God BRINGS salvation when we put it to use through faith. Faith is the working principle that activates grace in our lives. Faith is the DOING part or the WORK that we must do.

This is why Paul wrote...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

You see we are to WORK TOGETHER with God otherwise we receive grace to NO EFFECT.

God is the AUTHOR of salvation not us, yet we MUST OBEY and yield to the working of the author in us. If you don't obey you will not be saved.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Look at what James wrote...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers[/SIZE] of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

You are a doer of the word when you are obeying God thus being a worker together with Him.

Compliments of Scott Wilson

Well it is by some people. You have chosen to bring the WRONG connotation to this word. Hopefully NOT deliberately.
The proper Strong's reference is G5485 which is indeed the word charis, which is a feminine noun, and although the word's etymology or root, is chairō, which is the Strong's ref G5463 as you referenced above, it is NOT the word used.

The connotations for charis, are as follows;

1) grace​

a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech​

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour​

a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy
influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them
in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of
the Christian virtues​

3) what is due to grace​

a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of
divine grace​

b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
​

1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty​

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense,
reward​

Based on the CONTEXT of these verses, the second connotation is the proper fit.
This grace is which allows us to use our faith to respond in a positive salvic manner to Chirst.

2Cor 6:1 is Paul stating; As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. Here Paul is speaking of himself and the workers in his group, not he and his audience. This has nothing to do with any work on the part of the one's receiving grace, it is just a warning not to receive God's grace in vain, just as the scripture states. Trying to tie works to salvation is using eisegesis, and not exegesis.
The following page gives some good commentary on these passages in Titus 2:11-12. As I am not yet allowed to post links here, you must go to BibleGateway.com to view it.
The Basis of Godly Conduct (2:11-15) - The IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway

To understand the proper context of Heb 5:9, it should be read within Heb 5:7-10 as follows;

7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud crying and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 And once made perfect, he became for all those who obey him the source of eternal salvation, 10 having been designated by God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


​

Again, within context, we must read James 1:21-22 within James 1:19-27 as follows;

19 Understand this, my dear brothers: everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. 20 For the anger of man does not bring about the righteousness that God requires. 21 Therefore put aside all filthiness and rampant wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word and not merely hearers, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if someone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a person who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 then after looking at himself he goes away and immediately forgets what he was like. 25 But the person who looks intently into the perfect law, the law that provides liberty, and continues in it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an active doer—he will be blessed in his doing. 26 If someone thinks that he is religious, yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their time of trouble, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

​

We must remember that James, in context, is talking about our post salvation walk, NOT our pre-salvation experience.
:shade:

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite did you notice your first line in your post?

Hi Jari. If one has received Christ, how can one fail to live a righteous life?
We do not live a righteous life, we receive the righteousness of
Christ. The life we live is the Holy Spirit working through us.

Love is from God not a result of our obedience.

You do not bear the love of God by obedience to the law.

The Gospel is the start and finish of our faith!!!

Perfection in the Christian life is Christ's perfection
in us, the power of the Holy Spirit!

 

[bgsda]

Hello everyone I have studied this and came up with some questions if you dont mind. In John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, THE WORKS THAT I DO HE WILL DO ALSO; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. First of all did Christ do these works to get Himself saved or do you think He did them to glorify His Father? Look at the verse before that v. 10 "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works". That is what we are supposed to do right? Isn't that what Jesus just said in verse 12? The works that we ought to do is to GLORIFY God that people can see God in us and glorify God not us.

Here are some texts that maybe someone can give me an answer as to why Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is commending people and commanding them to do good works: Acts 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Romans2: 10 "you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who WORKS what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek".

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1Tim 5:24 Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. 25 Likewise, the good WORKS of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden

1Tim 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Does Jesus know our works? Read the letters to the 7 Churches in Revelation. Why does He start each one with "I know your works". You know these churches represents the churches throughout history and that we are the Laodicean church right?

Are we going to be JUDGED according to our WORKS? Please read these carefully and prayerfully:

Rev.14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their WORKS follow them."

Rev.18:6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her WORKS; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. As you can see the Great Harlot will be judged according to her WORKS.

Rev.20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. These are us Christians God willing. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his WORKS

Rev.22:.12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his WORK.

Eccl.12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

Please once again prayerfully consider your answers please.

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite did you notice your first line in your post?

Hi Jari. If one has received Christ, how can one fail to live a righteous life?
We do not live a righteous life, we receive the righteousness of
Christ. The life we live is the Holy Spirit working through us.

Love is from God not a result of our obedience.

You do not bear the love of God by obedience to the law.

The Gospel is the start and finish of our faith!!!

Perfection in the Christian life is Christ's perfection
in us, the power of the Holy Spirit!

Yes, well. I agree that without Christ we are nothing, and whatever good we may do, is to His glory and His only. So I agree with what you have said. (Except for the bit aboiut the gospel being the start and finish of our faith....Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith, but I dont want to sound too picky....thye gospel, rightly iunderstood, is the foundation certainly of all we are and can be). Yet we are still the ones who live the life. God doesn't turn us into robots...we still have the power to choose, (once free from sin even more so) whether or not to live the life of the Life-giver.
Any gospel that doesn't include the power of a changed life, is not a full gospel.

I would like to add a quote from my previous post:
God calls us to live righteous and holy lives. We cannot do so in our own strength, but what is impossible for man, is possible for God. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Thus the righteousness in which we live is not our own, but is that righteousness which Jesus said we are to hunger and thirst for. A righteousness that is not an abstract theory, but a righteousness that is reflected in a sanctified life. Wholly conformable to God's commandments. Grace gives us more than just eternal rewards. It also gives us power to become children of God. A gospel without the power is only half the gospel.
Read more: http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/42255-faith-alone-17.html#ixzz24ENR8MWZ

Now I am not entirely sure if what you said above is intended as a rebuttal or criticism, I hope not, for surely you would agree with the last paragraph yes?

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

I must say that you are more civilized in your
posts than some other sda members. In fact you
listen and respond which allows more fruitful
debate.

You stated;

Yet we are still the ones who live the life. God doesn't turn us into robots...
we still have the power to choose, (once free from sin even more so) whether
or not to live the life of the Life-giver. Any gospel that doesn't include the
power of a changed life, is not a full gospel.

Could you expand your reference to the
"full gospel", in particular how this relates
to justification before God? I have noticed
the term "full gospel" is used by sda members.

There is some confusion over justification and
sanctification.

Oh brakelite, in fifteen lines or less, thanks mate.

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite.

I must say that you are more civilized in your
posts than some other sda members. In fact you
listen and respond which allows more fruitful
debate.

Awww shucks:embarasse

You stated;

Yet we are still the ones who live the life. God doesn't turn us into robots...
we still have the power to choose, (once free from sin even more so) whether
or not to live the life of the Life-giver. Any gospel that doesn't include the
power of a changed life, is not a full gospel.

Could you expand your reference to the
"full gospel", in particular how this relates
to justification before God? I have noticed
the term "full gospel" is used by sda members.

There is some confusion over justification and
sanctification.

Oh brakelite, in fifteen lines or less, thanks mate.

Do you realise what you are asking!!!!!?????? 15 lines or ....less??????

 

[Boanerges]

God does indeed know our works for He has preordained them (Eph 2:10 ) and like Christ ( Joh 5:19) (we are to do the will and works of the Father not our own. Every man must indeed be judged but for a Christian we are judged in Christ having our sin covered by His act of love. If we do works of the flesh (wood, hay, stubble) they will be consumed, if we walk in the Spirit and do the works of our Father (like Jesus , our perfect examples earth-walk) then these are gold, silver and precious stones fit to be laid at His feet. If our works are acceptable that is awesome, but if not we are still saved by the blood of Christ (1Co_3:15 ). Judgement begins at the house of God (1Pe 4:17 ), for a believer that judgement reveals issues and brings darkness to the forefront that he may be freed from it's grasp. The lost however face an entirely different judgement, and that the great white throne judgement.

 

[Stan53]

The Judgment seat of Christ and the great white throne judgment, I believe, are one and the same.

The sheep and the goats and those whose names are and are NOT written in the book of life are ALL judged at one time.

 

[brakelite]

Our works determine our ultimate destiny.

1. Not all who claim to be Christian shall be saved; only those who obey God. Even religious works does not satisfy God's requirements.

Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


2. We must forgive as we are forgiven.

Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


3. We must overcome.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


4. Works are essential.

Matthew 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


The above is a different scenario to what has been said previously regarding some works being accepted and some rejected but we still being saved. The above are works that must be done in order to be saved. Period. We are not saved by them, but we are judged by them. Dont blame me for what Matthew has written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are the words of Christ Himself. Argue with Him.
See also Matthew 16:27; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12; 1 Peter 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:10.

5. All shall be judged.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.




6. Judgment shall be made in favour of the saints.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

7. Nothing will remain hidden. All works judged, even our thoughts and motives.

Eccles. 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

8. Bearing fruit essential.

John 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


9. Judgment begins with the church. Therefore, if true, and Jesus is coming back to take His church home, then that judgment must take place before the second coming. Even now.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Please note....Peter does not say that those who have faith will be saved, but the righteous.

Follow the three seperate texts revealing the very same event carefully and note the sequence in each one:
first judgment set and books opened, then the second coming.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, (NB. Thrones imply judgment see Psalm 90:7...cast down literally means set in place) and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.....
The context reveals that the judgment was set because of the words of the horn. Thus when this judgment takes place it is while the Antichrist power is ruling, and the beast is destroyed as a result of that judgment, although there is a little further time before the end while the lives of the other beasts are prolonged temporarily.

....13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This event is the same as above...not the second coming but a time when Jesus is presented before the Ancient of Days, the Father. This is that time when before Jesus returns the kingdom is presented to Him and Jesus is made King of Kings. The judgment must be made prior to or in conjunction with this presentation in order for it to be determined who makes up that kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Again we see the exact same sequence...the Antichrist is in power speaking his blasphemies against God which results in the judgment being set before the second coming and the destruction of the Antichrist's dominion.

10. We must account for every word we speak (and write). Not only are we required to account for them, but Jesus (not me) is saying here that they, that is our words, determine our ultimate destiny!!! Again, don't argue this very important point with me folks, argue with Jesus.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

11. Jesus must know us.

Matthew 25:1 ¶ Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

In the above scenario, the foolish virgins who were trusting (they had faith!!!) in what little they had to gain entrance into the wedding (eternal life) discovered too late that it wasn't enough. What is it that we are to buy now before it is too late? And where do we go to buy?

Isaiah 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Zechariah 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Some notes regarding Joshua, the high priest, who by the way,as high priest represents every one of us.

• The Lord caused the filthy garments to go.
• The Lord provides the clean clothes and dresses Joshua.
• It is after Joshua receives his clean garments that he is asked to keep God's commandments and walk in His ways. Joshua's obedience wasn't the cause of his change of garments, it was the result.

The clean garments that we are required to purchase without money and without price is the righteousness of Christ. We are required to live righteous and holy lives. We receive the power to do this by faith. The judgment, or our ultimate destiny, is determined by whether we are revealing the fruit of that transaction. We return our faith and in exchange we receive His righteousness. Our lives ought to give evidence of this. If not, we are the ultimate losers. If our faith does not result in a radical change in lifestyle in thought, motives, actions, practice and habits, then I am sorry to say that whatever you call faith is not faith at all. You have not become a new creature in Christ, you are not born again. There is a judgment taking place in the church right now: reach out to your Saviour in faith, hungering and thirsting for His righteousness and you will be filled.

Final points to note:

• Judgment is inevitable.
• Christians shall be judged.
• Works are a crucial element in the judgment.
• There are only two outcomes. Life or death.
• Judgment, logically, comes before sentence.
• In the case of the church judgment comes essentially before the second coming.

 

[Stan53]

Works and righteousness are the result of REAL faith.

James writes that faith without works is dead. A fact of the moment. If you have faith, you will have the appropriate works. James 2:17
Paul writes, "But to the one who does not work, but entrusts himself to the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

What do we see here. We see that the works our faith produces are real. That same faith establishes righteousness in our lives and that righteousness is there because we live by faithfulness. Heb 10:38.

This is a statement of fact and reality. There is no formula. We don't score brownie points. The NEW covenant is not based as the OLD was. It is new, and based solely on Jesus being our righteousness. Abraham will be saved because his faith was credited to him as righteousness.
If we have the righteousness of Christ based on true faith, that is ALL we need. Rev 20:15, Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. The unrighteous are judged by what they did, we are judged ONLY if our name is NOT in the book of life.

The NEW covenant is infinitely more simple and straight forward than the OLD was. To paraphrase an old Beatles song, ALL YOU NEED IS FAITH!
:shade: