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Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

No, the seven churches were not seven different denominations. Don't be ridiculous. They were all one church holding to the apostles doctrine. They were entirely united on doctrine, because they had people like Paul directly writing to their bishops. There was only one body of Christ until the great east-west schism of 1054.
There was, is, and always will be only one body of Christ. :)
The seven churches were separate, and not identical, which we know because Jesus gave each of them a different message which reflects their differences.
If you do some studying on the early, early church you will see a big broad wide diverse group of beliefs surrounding the core doctrines.
 
There was, is, and always will be only one body of Christ. :)
The seven churches were separate, and not identical, which we know because Jesus gave each of them a different message which reflects their differences.
If you do some studying on the early, early church you will see a big broad wide diverse group of beliefs surrounding the core doctrines.

Differences yes. Denominations no. Just because they struggled with different things doesnt mean they believed different doctrine. Dogma was identical, and heresy was exiled.
 
Sorry to be so late replying, been very busy. James 4:7-8 (KJV)
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


That's my immunity promise. However, it's conditional, like I have a new Kaspersky antifvirus DVD still in the mailer envelope, it's useless if not installed and maintained by paying the annual renewal. I just checked, have 12 days left to do that.

Double mindedness is the real danger for any Christian, deceiving ourselves if not submitted to God.
James 1:19-25 (KJV)
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


So am I immune to being deceived? Yes, now. It's conditional, though. Can I deceive myself? Yes, later. I can do the Devil's work as soon as I neglect the conditions of the promise of immunity.
Thank you for replying. Don't worry about how long it takes to respond. That's the beauty of a forum like this. We may take as long as we like, so long as it helps me understand the truth you already know. I do appreciate your assistance, BTW.

:)

Please allow me to explain what I belive is the current flow of our dialogue. You became concerned that I was using the Socratic Method to verify what I'm being told is true. Since Sicrates was no Christian, his method of asking questions is not a good way to discern the correct interpretation of scripture. I asked which of the steps of Socratic Method are unwise to practice, but you did not respond.

You did, however say seem to infer that Christians are imune to deception, so long as they do not do something in which God finds fault--that is, so long as they remain submitted to him.

Have I correctly conveyed the current course of our conversation?
 
Greetings,
@Spockrates and brothers in Christ,

beware lest ye fall through the warring of your flesh. An enmity against the LORD and most surely your soul.
May i present you this Scripture to consider before going any further on your hunt to find treasures that somehow you are convinced in need of apart from the magnificent treasures of God found only in Jesus Christ the Lord.
Many have fallen snare to digging deeper that they are prepared or indeed willing to enter and others have fallen into the pits dug that carry no water nor offer any hope.
Beware as the devil does roam around seeking whom he may devour.
We seek and consider it a googly thing and even justify ourselves (most abhorrently so, at that, for our Justification is in Christ alone); do we neglect to consider that one much stronger than our fleshy selves is also seeking and has been at it much longer than we ourselves all put together?
We have the victory in Christ over the devil only in that the power of sin and death has been eliminated from our judgement in Christ and we must beware though that we enter not into temptation and give place to the devil by neglecting the salvation offered unto men, found only in the Son of God.

Slow down and even be still and consider Him. He is the author and finisher of our faith, not we ourselves and too much leaning on our own understanding is presenting a way for folly and much grief.
After studying much and neglecting the faith, relying upon our fleshly carnal minds to support a doctrine delivered not by God, we may find ourselves unsatisfied with the grace and love that has been bestowed upon us as sinners. Study is good and searching is good but too much is too much and while one may wish to discover all the secrets of God we can neglect waiting upon Him and being faithful with that which He has so far given us.
A warning to all, in love.
Please, I ask that we cease from trying to be smarter that others but rather that with sincerity we remember that if we have any truth it is by grace alone entrusted to us, to be wise with and to share with humility and meekness, not boasting or pride. A servant that forgets the mercy and grace given by the Master is in for a sorry end.

Romans 10:9-11
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.


Please do read all of Romans 10, keeping in mind what all have said here but most importantly seeking the wisdom that the Lord has for you regarding the subject of this thread.

It is pointless arguing man's wisdom, brothers. Why do it? to put Christ to shame or to glorify your own stupidity? I say this in love for we all can turn away and cause stumbling blocks and we can all boast, that is evident.
A man who considers himself high will be brought low. Beware lest when ye think ye have won, you find that you have only brought destruction and a snare upon yourselves and others with you.

There is a wisdom which appears to those who entertain it to be above all others but it is nothing but vanity and vexation of the spirit.
Stephen was stoned to death and knew nothing of the orthodox ways not of calvin or any other but Christ, what about you?
Christ is made unto us wisdom.

Bless you ....><>

In tenderness He sought me,

In tenderness He sought me,
Weary and sick with sin,
And on His shoulders brought me
Into His flock again.
While angels in His presence sang
Until the courts of heaven rang.

Oh, the love that sought me!
Oh, the blood that bought me!
Oh, the grace that brought me to the flock,
Wondrous grace that brought me to the flock!

2
He washed the bleeding sin-wounds,
And poured in oil and wine;
He whispered to assure me,
“I’ve found thee, thou art Mine:”
I never heard a sweeter voice,
It made my aching heart rejoice.

Oh, the love that sought me!
Oh, the blood that bought me!
Oh, the grace that brought me to the flock,
Wondrous grace that brought me to the flock!

3
He pointed to the nail-prints,
For me His blood was shed;
A mocking crown so thorny,
Was placed upon His head:
I wondered what He saw in me,
To suffer such deep agony.

Oh, the love that sought me!
Oh, the blood that bought me!
Oh, the grace that brought me to the flock,
Wondrous grace that brought me to the flock!

4
I’m sitting in His presence,
The sunshine of His face,
While with adoring wonder
His blessings I retrace.
It seems as if eternal days
Are far too short to sound His praise.

Oh, the love that sought me!
Oh, the blood that bought me!
Oh, the grace that brought me to the flock,
Wondrous grace that brought me to the flock!

5
So while the hours are passing,
All now is perfect rest;
I’m waiting for the morning,
The brightest and the best,
When He will call us to His side,
To be with Him, His spotless Bride.

Oh, the love that sought me!
Oh, the blood that bought me!
Oh, the grace that brought me to the flock,
Wondrous grace that brought me to the flock!

-William Spencer Walton
Bear:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Have I done something wrong? I'm interested in discussing Romans 10 with you, if you are open to that. What truth about the chapter do you want me to learn?
 
Differences yes. Denominations no. Just because they struggled with different things doesnt mean they believed different doctrine. Dogma was identical, and heresy was exiled.
Proof? ...or conjecture? The Pauline letters and the letters from Christ in revelation indicate different churches with different issues, not just different struglles, but being led away to various beliefs either in addition to the Gospel or changing the Gospel... I have done some studying on the very early church, especially the process by which the books of the bible came to be accepted as inspired by the church community, and it is evident that each church had differing beliefs in some regard... only those very core, central doctrines were retained as similar. heresy's were very effectively combated during the early church, thanks mostly to the work that God did through the Apostles, and through the early catholic church (although i do not really like calling it the catholic church back then because i venture to guess that the catholic church of the late first couple centuries would be appalled at what the catholic and orthodox church believes and teachings today
 
Greetings,

@Spockrates , yes, it is by faith. (your original question).
Are you asking in order to understand Faith or if you have Faith?

Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings (again),

May I say that we can all learn from each other even if error arises if we both diligently seek the Lord and are taught of Him?

To throw out someone because they propose studying the writings of the early church or to scoff at one who does tends the reveal a forgetful hearer and steward as does rejecting or scoffing them who can see no benefit to looking at the history and teaching of the early church.
However, vanity beckons those who study and discuss the Word if they do so without the Lord.

The way is narrow and will there be hope or need of hope in the resurrection?

Keep the Faith... In love.

Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,

@Spockrates , yes, it is by faith. (your original question).
Are you asking in order to understand Faith or if you have Faith?

Bless you ....><>

Yes, I agree Romans says we are saved through faith, but is it through faith alone, or through faith and something more? I'm asking to understand. :)
 
Yes, I agree Romans says we are saved through faith, but is it through faith alone, or through faith and something more? I'm asking to understand. :)

Greetings,

Faith, saved.
Grace.
we speak of being saved. Ok. What from?
(Before going further, a modern westernized prosperity lifestyle is not being saved)
saved equates to resurrection (life)
Not saved equates to perish.
Faith in the Lord.
Why would we perish? Sin.
we can all claim faith yet until death how sure of resurrection are we and at deaths door will faith we claim still be so steady?
Saved and salvation are about the resurrection life.
Saved by Grace. Done.
OK. In the meantime we walk, eat, drink, sleep and quite a few other things, too, and we must persevere and press on, in faith.

But our salvation is about the resurrection which requires death first.
Acknowledging the wages of sin and our due in the Light and understanding the gift of Grace germinates Faith and repentance occurs.
Christ and Him crucified.

This may be of help?


Bless you....><>
 
Faith, saved.
Grace.
Yes they are all key elements and interrelated, and EXACTLY how, we will only know when we are in heaven. For now we only know "in part" or "dimly".
"You are saved by grace through faith" Ephesians 2:8a "it is a gift of God" Ephesians2:8b
  • We should be able to agree that grace comes first, or by scripture and logic, it existed as a part of God before the foundation of the Universe.
  • So, what is grace? God calls it a gift. What is a gift if it is not free. From the beginning of man's time. From Adam, to Noah, Abraham, David, between and beyond, God's grace to man has existed and continues to each generation.
  • What is saved? We should have no problem coming to agreement here because this is the essence of the gospel. Saved from hell and given heaven for all eternity.
  • God gives to each saved person their own measure of faith. SO what is faith? we are told that faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.
I have this kind of faith, don't you? I have no sense that I have manufactured any part of this faith, I just have it, it is a miracle. I can be said that you are saved by grace alone because without God's free gift, there would be no salvation at all.
I think that a better explanation would be that by God's grace alone, he gives you the necessary faith to believe and by your belief, you are saved.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
So, to be saved, you must believe,to believe you must have the faith and faith is only by the free gift of God!
I don't ask anyone to truly understand this, but at the same time I just believe it, it is all about God and none of us.
 
I have this kind of faith, don't you? I have no sense that I have manufactured any part of this faith, I just have it, it is a miracle. I can be said that you are saved by grace alone because without God's free gift, there would be no salvation at all.
I think that a better explanation would be that by God's grace alone, he gives you the necessary faith to believe and by your belief, you are saved.
I was pointing out in an earlier post that faith is only needed if you don't see.
The conversion of Saul to Paul is an example,he believed because he saw the supremacy of the resurrected Christ not because of any kind of faith on his own part.
So ,I would agree that it is all grace,all God,if I had anything to do with it I would have bragging rights.
The revelation of that grace is revealed to individuals in various ways. .

I don't ask anyone to truly understand this, but at the same time I just believe it, it is all about God and none of us.
I tend to agree,Jesus said no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.

Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
Yes, I agree Romans says we are saved through faith, but is it through faith alone, or through faith and something more? I'm asking to understand. :)

I would ask the Holy Ghost myself.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:18-20
 
8 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Yes in indeed but we are originally talking about being saved. I believe you must keep these true works in perspective.
  • God's Grace first
  • Then Faith
  • Salvation
  • Works of the Holy Ghost through us that justifies us before God and proves we are saved.....after all, he is the vine, we are the branch, it is his fruit we bear unless we could boast about it!
  • Works are very important but do not supersede Grace, Faith and Salvation!
 
God's Grace first
That's what I see,the gift,the foundation,the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
We don't create the foundation,it was laid by the finished work of the Lamb.
It is revealed by faith or direct revelation as in the case of Saul/Paul.

Then Faith
I would have to say "revelation" whether through faith or seeing.
Once the foundation is revealed by faith or seeing then we are confronted by an option to believe.

Salvation
If we have a revelation of the finished work we can now do the work of God by believing on the one whom God sent.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
To turn and believe is to repent.
It represents a change in spiritual direction and momentum.

  • Works of the Holy Ghost through us that justifies us before God and proves we are saved.....after all, he is the vine, we are the branch, it is his fruit we bear unless we could boast about it!
  • Works are very important but do not supersede Grace, Faith and Salvation!
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I agree works are important but there is only one essential work and that is to believe on the
one whom God sent..
If I am always in danger of hellfire then "saved" really doesn't mean much because I'm building my own foundation using works that can be shaken or burnt up.
 
I would ask the Holy Ghost myself.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
He is not speaking of the foundation which is Jesus Christ or of believing on the one whom God sent.
Faith reveals grace,without faith you can not please God but it is the revelation of the finished work of the Lamb
that gives us an option to believe on the one whom God sent.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They believe because they see and in that seeing they know that they are temporary,we get a different message about the foundation than they do.
They tremble because they are left out.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Faith without works is just.boring
However neither my faith or my works or my belief laid that foundation.
Our works get tested but the foundation always remains.
 
Greetings,

Faith, saved.
Grace.
we speak of being saved. Ok. What from?
(Before going further, a modern westernized prosperity lifestyle is not being saved)
saved equates to resurrection (life)
Not saved equates to perish.
Faith in the Lord.
Why would we perish? Sin.
we can all claim faith yet until death how sure of resurrection are we and at deaths door will faith we claim still be so steady?
Saved and salvation are about the resurrection life.
Saved by Grace. Done.
OK. In the meantime we walk, eat, drink, sleep and quite a few other things, too, and we must persevere and press on, in faith.

But our salvation is about the resurrection which requires death first.
Acknowledging the wages of sin and our due in the Light and understanding the gift of Grace germinates Faith and repentance occurs.
Christ and Him crucified.

This may be of help?

Bless you....><>
Thanks, Br. Bear. So repentance comes in where? Are all three--grace, faith and repentance--required to save me? I think they might be and wonder if you think so too.

:)
 
I would ask the Holy Ghost myself.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:18-20
I asked, and he said I should ask you. :)

When I read James' words I see that what I do shows what I really believe. The Apostle Peter comes to mind. He told Christ he'd die for him rather than see him arrested and executed. But when push came to shove, instead of trusting God, he ran away. I guess his cowardice showed his lack of faith, just as his bravery--if he had not fled and let himself be crucified with Christ--would have demonstrated he was not lacking in faith.

But are you thinking what I do is more than just an effect of faith? Are you thinking what I do is a cause of salvation?
 
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