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Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

Member
Come on, Travis. We have nothing to lose but our ignorance! Let's look together at what the Bible says about repentance and see if we really are saved through faith alone. That is the purpose of the opening post, and I really want to hear why you doubt.
 
Active
I can tell you like talking,

Obviously, talking isn't inherently bad. We are not going to reason this one out just by talking about it though. We are discussing incredibly spiritual things, and these things must be taught by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said,

John 3
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

I'm not trying to apply this scripture specifically to you Spockrates, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to make a point here that heavenly things are hard to understand and take much more than human understanding. Our only hope is that the Lord would teach us about these things, we will never figure them out on our own. Also, that when we speak of the things of God, we speak what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen. I don't know things about God because I have spent a lifetime as a seeker of the truth, searching it out diligently and reasoning it out on my own, I know what I know because of what has been delivered to me, what God himself has taught me, that no man could ever teach me (apart from God). Any doctrine I have is not my own, but it is the Lords, I am just a steward of it, it was never mine in the first place.

I admit, my plate is pretty full right now, I'm stretched for time. I do have plans on starting a thread related to this topic in the near future. You are more than welcome to join in!

Blessings,

Travis
 
Member
I can tell you like talking,

Obviously, talking isn't inherently bad. We are not going to reason this one out just by talking about it though. We are discussing incredibly spiritual things, and these things must be taught by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said,

John 3
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

I'm not trying to apply this scripture specifically to you Spockrates, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to make a point here that heavenly things are hard to understand and take much more than human understanding. Our only hope is that the Lord would teach us about these things, we will never figure them out on our own. Also, that when we speak of the things of God, we speak what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen. I don't know things about God because I have spent a lifetime as a seeker of the truth, searching it out diligently and reasoning it out on my own, I know what I know because of what has been delivered to me, what God himself has taught me, that no man could ever teach me (apart from God). Any doctrine I have is not my own, but it is the Lords, I am just a steward of it, it was never mine in the first place.

I admit, my plate is pretty full right now, I'm stretched for time. I do have plans on starting a thread related to this topic in the near future. You are more than welcome to join in!

Blessings,

Travis

spock_051513.gif


No problem, Travis. It was good thinking this through, with you. If you change your mind and would like to consider what Jesus said about repentance, please let me know.

As for Curtis and I, I think we are convinced, but perhaps your new discussion will change our minds. Please let me know when you start the new discussion.

May God grant you eternal life and rich blessings.

:)
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings @Spockrates,
thank you for your reply(s).
much the same principle in mold (mould?), herbs, berries and grass.
but before I continue, have I rendered your words correctly; divided correctly the message you meant in replying regarding growing sprouts? Or have I, by changing their original order and abbreviating one, misrepresented what you wrote (can that be 'what you said'?)?

Bless you ....><>
 
Member
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So I have a lot of questions about the meaning of this passage of scripture. I don't doubt it means we are saved by grace, nor through faith, nor apart from our own good deeds. I'm just wondering if the passage means we are saved through faith alone--through nothing else but faith.

I tend to ask a lot of follow up questions, but don't feel obligated to answer them all. Post and go, or post and stay as long as you like to help me learn the truth.

:)

If you insert the word 'Christ' for the words 'grace' and 'faith' you will get closer to understanding what is meant here. Christ is said to be the one who is found faithful and the scripture is emphasizing how Christ inserts himself (his faith) into the true believers who are born of God. It is his act to do so, so we are his creation. It is not our act to muster up our own faith. Further, Christ is the one with grace, which he gives us: Php 4:23: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
 
Member
Greetings @Spockrates,
thank you for your reply(s).
much the same principle in mold (mould?), herbs, berries and grass.
but before I continue, have I rendered your words correctly; divided correctly the message you meant in replying regarding growing sprouts? Or have I, by changing their original order and abbreviating one, misrepresented what you wrote (can that be 'what you said'?)?

Bless you ....><>
Yes, they are correct.
 
Member
If you insert the word 'Christ' for the words 'grace' and 'faith' you will get closer to understanding what is meant here. Christ is said to be the one who is found faithful and the scripture is emphasizing how Christ inserts himself (his faith) into the true believers who are born of God. It is his act to do so, so we are his creation. It is not our act to muster up our own faith. Further, Christ is the one with grace, which he gives us: Php 4:23: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
Hi Pajaro:

Does the passage mean we are saved by Christ through faith alone, or by Christ through faith and more?
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

Thank you .
There is a law in the growing which we observe as works, those being works which also testify to the LORD.
Why sprouts?

Take a small vessel and add to it wheat seeds. In another, add the same.
Leave one as is.
The other,
add water, covering the seeds, even deeply so.
Let the water soak into the seeds.
Germination occurs.
After a day, drain water and let damp seeds STOP!!!!!
Re-write!!
After a day, drain water and let damp sprouts (or sproutlings) manifest growth.
Get the vessel with seeds and notice that they are still seeds.
If you would like to continue the growing of the sprouts, rinse daily and they will continue growing and you will witness the law and see evidence of it via roots forming followed by tender green grass.
The seeds in the vessel that had no water will remain seeds but in time will perish.
If the sprouted seeds had been sown instead of remaining in a vessel, they would go on to produce fruit which in turn becomes seeds, each original seed bearing numerous seeds.

All the law, according to the Word of God, is set and unchanging in each seed and will faithfully reproduce the Word.

Bless you ....><>

(Man has changed the law and call it genetically modified seed)
 
Active
Math 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is the only revelation that can cause a person to confess from the heart that "Jesus Christ is Lord". This is the "Rock" Jesus said he would build his Church upon.

Peter means little rock, or stone, right? So there is a comparison or a distinction that could be made between the little rock and the rock (big implied). I kind of think that Jesus may have pointed to himself when he said that. Jesus is the rock, no?

Psalms 62
 
Active
(Man has changed the law and call it genetically modified seed)

Things in the natural seem to often bear witness to spiritual things. I don't think this is an exception.

a verse came to mind while reading your post:

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth."
 
Loyal
Peter means little rock, or stone, right? So there is a comparison or a distinction that could be made between the little rock and the rock (big implied). I kind of think that Jesus may have pointed to himself when he said that. Jesus is the rock, no?

Psalms 62
Yes, Jesus is the only "foundation" which can be laid, and be built upon. He is also known as the "chief corner stone".
 
Active
Thanks for posting, Norapture. I have some questions I hope you don't mind answering. But it's OK if you'd rather not.

Are you saying, then that there are works of the law by which we are not justified and works of some other kind by which we are justified?



I'm having difficulty understanding why it is important to know faith is a gift. I mean, if it was not a gift, then how would that change anything?

Yes they are works that God foreordained that we should do....(verse 10) works that do not save but that those genuinely saved will do (because they are children of God by grace through faith)...you shall know them by their fruits
 
Active

RJ

(Man has changed the law and call it genetically modified seed)
Man can do nothing with out Jesus inside them, and left alone, generally mess up everything!
I know you understand the truth that the law is spiritual and has and will never change, so I am not sure of your reference to how man can change anything?
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

Thank you @RJ,
I had realized this and not yet moved to say more.
We can never change the Word.
We, man, can present a modified word which will not produce seed that is true to type.
Thank you for pointing this out.

Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Greetings,

Thank you .
There is a law in the growing which we observe as works, those being works which also testify to the LORD.
Why sprouts?

Take a small vessel and add to it wheat seeds. In another, add the same.
Leave one as is.
The other,
add water, covering the seeds, even deeply so.
Let the water soak into the seeds.
Germination occurs.
After a day, drain water and let damp seeds STOP!!!!!
Re-write!!
After a day, drain water and let damp sprouts (or sproutlings) manifest growth.
Get the vessel with seeds and notice that they are still seeds.
If you would like to continue the growing of the sprouts, rinse daily and they will continue growing and you will witness the law and see evidence of it via roots forming followed by tender green grass.
The seeds in the vessel that had no water will remain seeds but in time will perish.
If the sprouted seeds had been sown instead of remaining in a vessel, they would go on to produce fruit which in turn becomes seeds, each original seed bearing numerous seeds.

All the law, according to the Word of God, is set and unchanging in each seed and will faithfully reproduce the Word.

Bless you ....><>

(Man has changed the law and call it genetically modified seed)
My apologies. I don't get your meaning. But then, I'm not a farmer.

I think if Jesus were visiting earth the first time today, he would talk about things most people are familiar with. Instead of sheep, goats, wheat and chaff, he might talk about computer software, computer viruses, organic food and fast food. In short, he'd talk about what people know so they'd know what spiritual truth he's talking about. He'd use the familiar--the parable or symbolism--to teach about the unfamiliar--the spiritual truths they needed to learn.

So Brother Bear, perhaps if you talk about something more modern than agriculture, I migh have a better chance of catching on.
 
Active

RJ

There is a law in the growing which we observe as works, those being works which also testify to the LORD.
These works do indeed testify to the Lord, because they are his fruits through us. He is the vine and we are the branch! We bear his works!
 
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