Why believe in Christianity?

[DHC]

Hello Asanima.

I do understand your line of reasoning and reservation regarding Christianity.
Before I believed in Jesus, my thinking was similar to your thinking Asanima.
Almost an identical perspective on Christianity, which was no different really,
to any other religion at its core. A religion of faith, a fable promoted by people
that have been taught the fable from a young age. An attempt to soften the sharpness of life
itself by believing in a world beyond our own. All I was after was the proof, show me the proof
then I will believe. Practical, tangible evidence, not belief or fables.

I will tell you Asanima what changed my life, why I became a covert.

A friend of mine was converting to Christianity and I had to tolerate his
conversations about Christianity. Very annoying and frivolous conversations,
his knowledge base concerning Christianity was sadly lacking. Knowing that
my friend was somewhat gullible, I asked for a copy of the Bible. I will read
the Bible myself and this I thought would be a simple process of exposing the
logical flaws and false claims in such an old fable. A fable of blind faith,
sacraments and rituals, bereft of sound logic, a religion for the lesser folk.

After a few weeks of reading this ancient text, I started to regret my decision
to start reading the Christian Bible. I was not prepared at all for the information
that the pages of the New Testament contained. There were no obvious errors in
the text, nor, was the New Testament what I thought it would be. It obviously was
a far more complex narration than I had been led to believe. I had to dig much
deeper into the text, there must be logical flaws. There must be fictional characters,
miracles that were not really miracles, scientific ignorance, I found none of this.

I read on and on, deeply thinking about what I was reading. No one I knew
had read the Bible, this was both an adventure and a time of discovery.
It was not long before I became deeply troubled about the issue of a judgement day
for all mankind. So I started researching material on Christianity, all I ever read
were opinions, hypothesis and theories. No one had any proof, no substantial refutation
of Christianity. In fact no one had any real idea whether the Christ was who He claimed
to be.

It was in the end, just pure hypothesis and opinion on their behalf. Most people
I discussed Christianity with have never even read the Bible. I became one of a
small percentage of people that have actually read the Bible itself. I was not
impressed at all by humanity, this Bible was making profound claims about
life. No one it seems had addressed this book, was anyone taking its claims
seriously. This I found disturbing!

To cut a long story short, I went to a church and asked a minister about Christinity.
I wanted to become a follower, as an insurance policy against a possible judgement day.
I am not a gambler by nature, so I had to minimise the risk. They gave me the Gospel
and prayed over me, very unsettling I must say. The minister said "you cannot become a
Christian until you believe in Jesus, we do not sell insurance policies".

So I returned to the Bible to identify the Christ, who was He? This seemed to
be the very heart of the Bible itself. I desperatly needed to identfy the Christ to
access the insurance policy against a judgement day. What I found was a fellow
who spoke from the past, the present and the future, as if time was irrevalent.
Jesus fulfilled prohecy and gave prophecy at the same time. These miracles that
Jesus performed were beyond impressive, Jesus raised a dead person for heavens sake.
Time, distance, the laws of nature, even human authority were irrevalent to Jesus.
This guy had a mission it seemed, that no one else even understood.

I had been reading the N.T for over a year when I stumbled upon a revelation
that pushed me from unbelief to belief. Jesus was not involved in a self promotion
exercise, Jesus did not perform miracles to impress people. No, No, Jesus had one
objective and only one objective. Jesus was born to die, a brutal death for the
sake of those He loved. Jesus had to shed His own blood to reconcile humanity
to Himself. God on a mission, to save that which is lost, us.

It was not long before I crossed from the fable of my own fictional life into the very real and powerful world of God Himself.
Make no mistake Asanima, when the Holy Spirit becomes active in your life. There will be no doubt about the identity of the messiah,
the Christ. God in human form is a vast understatement, divine love manifested in human form is more suitable explanation.
Love beyond comprehension sacrificing itself for you and I. We actually exist in a moral universe governed by God himself.
A creation of people deeply loved by the creator, God will not count the cost. God will do whatever it takes to save His creation.

God has performed miracle after miracle in my life and in the lives of those I know. The truth is really out there, but you must
actively seek the truth. Pursue Jesus with all your might and He will respond I guarantee that Asanima. Seek and it will be
revealed to you Asanima.

 

[Asanima]

Wow. Thats a lot of responses.

If I may. Since you are an atheist I'm curious what it would require for you to believe that Christ Jesus, lived, died on the Cross, arose from the dead and that He did this for the World, which of cause would include both of us? This would suppose that you could allow yourself the assumption that there is a God.
C4E

Something to gnaw on and I pray might help to see where we as Christians in some small part are coming from.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Yes, ive heard of that verse. Ive read the bible through and through, multiple times now. Just as a point of contention, though, i never found quoting bible verses very effective to people who do not accept the bible as an authority, because they have no reason to believe it.

In any case, im sure that God would know what it would take to convince me that he exists, and to follow christianity. Currently, id say that a visit from Jesus who talked to me and answered my questions would suffice. Although its really hard to tell, because ive never experienced the other things that convinced other people to believe, such as a blinding light or dinner with God or touching his wounds after being crucified.

A God whose actions, though its hard to understand, are rooted in love. Other religions have deities that want to be flattered or appeased in some way.

Suggested reading: The Reason For God by Tim Keller

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

Im pretty sure that most religions dont claim that God hates you.

So, what does Christianity offer you that no other religion can offer? At this stage I would repeat what I said in an earlier post. It isn't a system of religion that you need. It is a person. A God who became a man that He might die in your place. It isn't therefore what Christianity is offering, it is what Jesus Christ offers you, right here, right now. Forgiveness.

Okay, first off, it sounds as though miracles are not only the basis of faith, but shouldnt be used to support faith either.

Secondly, wouldnt that offer be contingent upon accepting the need for forgiveness to begin with? I.e. you would have to believe that you need forgiveness before you accept the offer. That sounds like a problem in the sense that you kind of have to accept the religion before the offer is even made.

Hello Asanima.

I do understand your line of reasoning and reservation regarding Christianity.
Before I believed in Jesus, my thinking was similar to your thinking Asanima.
Almost an identical perspective on Christianity, which was no different really,
to any other religion at its core. A religion of faith, a fable promoted by people
that have been taught the fable from a young age. An attempt to soften the sharpness of life
itself by believing in a world beyond our own. All I was after was the proof, show me the proof
then I will believe. Practical, tangible evidence, not belief or fables.

I will tell you Asanima what changed my life, why I became a covert.

A friend of mine was converting to Christianity and I had to tolerate his
conversations about Christianity. Very annoying and frivolous conversations,
his knowledge base concerning Christianity was sadly lacking. Knowing that
my friend was somewhat gullible, I asked for a copy of the Bible. I will read
the Bible myself and this I thought would be a simple process of exposing the
logical flaws and false claims in such an old fable. A fable of blind faith,
sacraments and rituals, bereft of sound logic, a religion for the lesser folk.

After a few weeks of reading this ancient text, I started to regret my decision
to start reading the Christian Bible. I was not prepared at all for the information
that the pages of the New Testament contained. There were no obvious errors in
the text, nor, was the New Testament what I thought it would be. It obviously was
a far more complex narration than I had been led to believe. I had to dig much
deeper into the text, there must be logical flaws. There must be fictional characters,
miracles that were not really miracles, scientific ignorance, I found none of this.

I read on and on, deeply thinking about what I was reading. No one I knew
had read the Bible, this was both an adventure and a time of discovery.
It was not long before I became deeply troubled about the issue of a judgement day
for all mankind. So I started researching material on Christianity, all I ever read
were opinions, hypothesis and theories. No one had any proof, no substantial refutation
of Christianity. In fact no one had any real idea whether the Christ was who He claimed
to be.

It was in the end, just pure hypothesis and opinion on their behalf. Most people
I discussed Christianity with have never even read the Bible. I became one of a
small percentage of people that have actually read the Bible itself. I was not
impressed at all by humanity, this Bible was making profound claims about
life. No one it seems had addressed this book, was anyone taking its claims
seriously. This I found disturbing!

To cut a long story short, I went to a church and asked a minister about Christinity.
I wanted to become a follower, as an insurance policy against a possible judgement day.
I am not a gambler by nature, so I had to minimise the risk. They gave me the Gospel
and prayed over me, very unsettling I must say. The minister said "you cannot become a
Christian until you believe in Jesus, we do not sell insurance policies".

So I returned to the Bible to identify the Christ, who was He? This seemed to
be the very heart of the Bible itself. I desperatly needed to identfy the Christ to
access the insurance policy against a judgement day. What I found was a fellow
who spoke from the past, the present and the future, as if time was irrevalent.
Jesus fulfilled prohecy and gave prophecy at the same time. These miracles that
Jesus performed were beyond impressive, Jesus raised a dead person for heavens sake.
Time, distance, the laws of nature, even human authority were irrevalent to Jesus.
This guy had a mission it seemed, that no one else even understood.

I had been reading the N.T for over a year when I stumbled upon a revelation
that pushed me from unbelief to belief. Jesus was not involved in a self promotion
exercise, Jesus did not perform miracles to impress people. No, No, Jesus had one
objective and only one objective. Jesus was born to die, a brutal death for the
sake of those He loved. Jesus had to shed His own blood to reconcile humanity
to Himself. God on a mission, to save that which is lost, us.

It was not long before I crossed from the fable of my own fictional life into the very real and powerful world of God Himself.
Make no mistake Asanima, when the Holy Spirit becomes active in your life. There will be no doubt about the identity of the messiah,
the Christ. God in human form is a vast understatement, divine love manifested in human form is more suitable explanation.
Love beyond comprehension sacrificing itself for you and I. We actually exist in a moral universe governed by God himself.
A creation of people deeply loved by the creator, God will not count the cost. God will do whatever it takes to save His creation.

God has performed miracle after miracle in my life and in the lives of those I know. The truth is really out there, but you must
actively seek the truth. Pursue Jesus with all your might and He will respond I guarantee that Asanima. Seek and it will be
revealed to you Asanima.

I dont know. I found the bible to be quite disturbing, but for different reasons, especially the old testament(And my question to you is, where was the old testament in your post? Did your copy of the bible not contian one? Or did you just skip over it because it was too long?). But the problem i have with your response is multiple.

Firstly, id like to ask, why didnt you research what critics had to say about Christianity, before you became a christian? Or maybe you did, its just that you never mentioned this in your post. But the reason that i suspect you didnt, is because you claimed that you couldnt find any contradictions within the bible, and there are myriads of people from other religions who were glad to point out to me what the contradictions were in the Bible. This was one of the nails in the coffin for me in my inability to accept Christianity at face value, as insurance or not.

Secondly, your arguments seem to be contingent on the presumption that the bible is actually accurate and true. This is something that i think you would agree that as an atheist, i do not accept. Yet, to be impressed by anything in the bible, this is a prerequisite. Its the same reason why i am not impressed by Spiderman, because i dont believe he is real. So what convinced you that the bible was accurate/true to begin with?

Thirdly, i thought i did. And this is possibly the greatest insult to be accused that i didnt. Im not saying that you are accusing me, but this claim that if you follow Jesus and try and believe with all your heart and be truly sincere, or hit down on your knees and pray and if you are truly sincere, God will reveal himself to you in a manner that will confirm to you that he exists and christianity is true, is basically an accusation to those who have done it but received nothing, that they werent sincere enough. Something that People like Ray Comfort will point out. And then there are people who claimed not to be seeking God, who say that Christianity was the last place they wanted to be, but received a single revelation that suddenly converted them, a near death experienced that convinced them, etc. These seem to be contrary. So does God reveal himself to everyone, regardless of whether they seeked him out or not?

 

[brakelite]

Okay, first off, it sounds as though miracles are not only the basis of faith, but shouldnt be used to support faith either.

Hi. Good to see you still with us. Can I ask where you got the idea that miracles are the basis for faith? Certainly they strengthen faith without doubt, but as a basis? No my friend, the basis for faith is a sure beliefe that what God says is Truth, that what God promises will indeed happen. Faith is trust in God's word. Period. Now of course for one such as yourself who doesn't believe that there is a God to begin with that presents a problem. What you require is evidence. Now for me there is sufficient evidence everywhere for the existence of a Creator God. But what I see as evidence for God, you see as evidence for .....I'll let you fill in the blank. That said, maybe you do need a miracle to convince you, or is it you are demanding a miracle to convince you? Thing is, God is God and though He loves you to bits He has already provided sufficient evidence for this love both in a providential creation and in the person of Jesus Christ...if these don't convince you what else can? You tell us.

Secondly, wouldnt that offer be contingent upon accepting the need for forgiveness to begin with? I.e. you would have to believe that you need forgiveness before you accept the offer. That sounds like a problem in the sense that you kind of have to accept the religion before the offer is even made.

That is very true. The need for forgiveness. Mmmm. If you don't believe in God, then how can you accept that you have offended Him? Another problem. However, these problems are of yoyr own making. They are not God's problems, nor ours. They are yours. Take a good long look around you. Why is it you think that despite the clear and obvious need for mankind to get along with one another and all the advantages of doing so, simply cannot? Why has there been, throughout the history of mankind, continued war, killing, torture, and all manner of violent evil against enemies, family, neighbour, and so called friend, when we all know that death for others and ourselves in the inevitable result? That despite our love for peace, we make war??? That tension my friend between love and selfishness, hatred and kindness, compassion and vindictiveness, jealousy and contentment, good and evil, is possibly the greatest evidence for God that there is. Because it is clearly evident that behind the actions we do, both good and bad, are powers vying for control over mankind; powers which in these last days are becoming far more obvious and delineated. Your conscience was not an accident of nature, nor something inherited in your gene pool from the apes or whatever else you think you may have evolved from. That inate sense of right and wrong, however weak or strong it may be, however bruised over the years it may have become, was a gift from God. That sense of right and wrong that we all possess is God's moral laws written on our hearts and minds, laws which without God we are utterly unable to keep. The result is sin, or transgression against those same laws. It manifests itself in a myriad of ways. Theft, violence, lust, murder etc etc. It is for this that you need forgiveness. And you need God for a change of heart and mind, to receive a power from beyond yourself to honour and uphold God's laws.We are all born with the propensity to sin, and as we grew older, sin we did. Some with gusto and full measure, others less so. But all sinners. Every one of us. Aain, look around. The world is in a mess and getting worse. A crisis of stupendous proportions is heading the way of mankind and mankind has nothing to offer to combat it. God is man's only answer, and He is your only answer. Whether you beleive in Him or not.

 

[DHC]

I dont know. I found the bible to be quite disturbing, but for different reasons, especially the old testament(And my question to you is, where was the old testament in your post? Did your copy of the bible not contian one? Or did you just skip over it because it was too long?). But the problem i have with your response is multiple.

Hello asanima.

No need to skip over the Old Testament.

Here is a wonderful example of a narrative from the O.T which has been absolutely verified by archaeology.

2 Kings 18:13-16
13 Now in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and seized them.
14 Then Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria at Lachish, saying, I have done wrong. Withdraw from me; whatever you impose on me I will bear.
So the king of Assyria required of Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold.
15 Hezekiah gave him all the silver which was found in the house of the Lord, and in the treasuries of the king’s house.
16 At that time Hezekiah cut off the gold from the doors of the temple of the Lord, and from the doorposts which Hezekiah
king of Judah had overlaid, and gave it to the king of Assyria.

Now read the following asanima.

The Taylor Prism was discovered among the ruins of ancient Nineveh by Colonel Taylor in 1830. This six-sided hexagonal clay prism, commonly known as the Taylor Prism,
was discovered among the ruins of Nineveh, the ancient capital of the Assyrian Empire. It contains the Annals of Sennacherib himself, the Assyrian king who had besieged
Jerusalem in 701 BC during the reign of king Hezekiah. On the prism Sennacherib boasts that he shut up "Hezekiah the Judahite" within Jerusalem his own royal city "like a caged bird."
This prism is among the three accounts discovered so far which have been left by the Assyrian monarch of his campaign against Israel and Judah. (bible-history.com)

Proof of the reliability of the account given in 2 Kings 18.
So feel free to believe what you read in the O.T, asanima.
I have no doubts that the texts are reliable.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Quote Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
If I may. Since you are an atheist I'm curious what it would require for you to believe that Christ Jesus, lived, died on the Cross, arose from the dead and that He did this for the World, which of cause would include both of us? This would suppose that you could allow yourself the assumption that there is a God.
C4E

Something to gnaw on and I pray might help to see where we as Christians in some small part are coming from.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Yes, ive heard of that verse. Ive read the bible through and through, multiple times now. Just as a point of contention, though, i never found quoting bible verses very effective to people who do not accept the bible as an authority, because they have no reason to believe it.

In any case, im sure that God would know what it would take to convince me that he exists, and to follow christianity. Currently, id say that a visit from Jesus who talked to me and answered my questions would suffice. Although its really hard to tell, because ive never experienced the other things that convinced other people to believe, such as a blinding light or dinner with God or touching his wounds after being crucified.

Nice to hear from you. Really

I quote the Bible with certain references, because it communicates my thoughts on a subject in a way I have been unable to improve upon. I may also use it as a source document, to reference historical incidents as it relates to the life of Jesus. You as an example may quote say Darwin, or Dawkins, which I also have no reason to believe is truth. However, I would acknowledge that they believe in what they have said and that you agree with said statements quoted. So "point of contention" eace: not at all.

Each person has an experience that they give credence to the belief in a God, or one that contests His existence. From both positions, only can the belief in a God be considered spontaneous requiring no foreknowledge. Atheism requires and must consider the possibility of a god in order for this belief to exist in the first place. This line of reasoning by its self doesn't make either position correct. It just provides a stronger point to reason for the existence of God then not. I'm sure you would agree that one cannot come to the thought that there is no God, without first the thought of a "God" already being in place.

The real shocker actually happens prior when knowledge is gained that there is another position that claims there is no God or the concept of God becomes known to a person! From this moment on the person will continue to add or subtract to either line of reasoning that for arguments sake will support their particular position. In time the now established (if not firmly) position will lead to questioning of the experience which provided the initial thought in the first place. Which might be one reason you joined TJ. A person at times may sway from one camp to the other and back and forth depending on the knowledge gained. This being the case. All I can provide you is my own experience, which you may choose to believe or not.

My belief in existence of God, had nothing to do with others, in fact it had more to do with what I observed with the innocence of a child, by looking at the night sky. It started small and covered the entirety that was little me! A simple overwhelming joy and awe in what I was looking at. This happened in New York City of all places! I say that with a smile, because due to the pollution :doctor: in and around the city, the clarity and grandeur of a night sky as seen let's say from the desert, or cold winter night in the country, is a bit lacking. In so saying, I might not have been able to in that single moment in time, been able to verbally make it understood to another, or describe to another the very concept of God, but in truth; what child would have a need to? Yet experience it I did! Many can explain away my experience and don't get me wrong. Since then, "knowledge" via many vehicles of learning put doubts in my mind, yet it would always come back to that one small moment in time that could not be erased from my memory or this body that experienced it, try as I might to forget it.

The best explanation since then that came close to explain in words to what I had felt many years later came when I read a Biblical verse that said: "The heavens declare the glory of God....". Can one in the initial knowledge of God feel anything but awe and fear? Only a child could.

There's a telling in the NT, where Jesus says "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." With tears in my eyes, I say; "To be that child of innocence once again!"

Yet, it is not the doubts that lay heavy upon my soul, these days or even the loss of innocence. The days of blamelessness has left both of us behind and have us traveling a much harder road, and in your case not necessarily for the better I fear. For no matter what the world has in store for this aging body of mine, there is a Hope that resides in me, which you might say is delusional, but one which I pray one day you too may share. For without it, there is nothing but darkness which awaits you which is rather depressing don't you think?

So if you like to post the questions you would ask God go for it. You might be surprised that others here have probably asked the very same ones at one time or another and might have received answers for.

I do have one question for you. What was the initial moment in time that you came to the belief that there was no God?

From a seeker that once was lost, but is now found.
C4E

 

[Asanima]

Hi.Good to see you still with us. Can I ask where you got the idea thatmiracles are the basis for faith? Certainly they strengthen faithwithout doubt, but as a basis? No my friend, the basis for faith is asure beliefe that what God says is Truth, that what God promises willindeed happen. Faith is trust in God's word. Period. Now of coursefor one such as yourself who doesn't believe that there is a God tobegin with that presents a problem. What you require is evidence. Nowfor me there is sufficient evidence everywhere for the existence of aCreator God. But what I see as evidence for God, you see as evidencefor .....I'll let you fill in the blank. That said, maybe you do needa miracle to convince you, or is it you are demanding a miracle toconvince you? Thing is, God is God and though He loves you to bits Hehas already provided sufficient evidence for this love both in aprovidential creation and in the person of Jesus Christ...if thesedon't convince you what else can? You tell us.

Okay,first of all, sorry forthe late reply.


Inany case, ive heard from many christians that their original reasonfor belief is because God did something miraculous in their life, andthat was the reason why they believed. Wouldnt that make it a basisfor their belief, for their faith? If the miracle never happened, itwould appear that they wouldnt have been believers, since theyrecognize that this was the turning point in their lives that changedtheir belief.


Furthermore,I think the point of people requiring miracles and other things inorder to believe is a testament to the fact that there isntsufficient evidence of his existance. If there was, why would therebe people who claim to believe after they witnessed or experiencedmiraculous events. I mean, I rarely, if ever, see someone who claimsthey believe because someone pointed out that the evidence for God isself evident and everywhere.


AndI think the point about God, is that he knows what it would take toconvince me. Clearly I am not convinced from claims by other peopleabout their own personal experiences, or looking at the world aroundme and concluding that the evidence is sufficient as is. And id thinkGod knows this. Its hard for me to tell you what it would take toconvince me, because I dont know whether a specific experience wouldconvince me without actually experiencing it. Id say, currently, thatGod or Jesus coming into my room and talking to me, answering myquestions with sufficient answers, would probably be enough.

Thatis very true. The need for forgiveness. Mmmm. If you don't believe inGod, then how can you accept that you have offended Him? Anotherproblem. However, these problems are of yoyr own making. They are notGod's problems, nor ours. They are yours.

Okay,I find this very shallow and, quite frankly, immoral.


Ifyou were on the side of the street,and you needed help, I dont think id just walk by and think to myself“Its your problem, not mine”. Wouldnt the good, moral thing todo, be to actually help them?

Takea good long look around you. Why is it you think that despite theclear and obvious need for mankind to get along with one another andall the advantages of doing so, simply cannot? Why has there been,throughout the history of mankind, continued war, killing, torture,and all manner of violent evil against enemies, family, neighbour,and so called friend, when we all know that death for others andourselves in the inevitable result? That despite our love for peace,we make war??? That tension my friend between love and selfishness,hatred and kindness, compassion and vindictiveness, jealousy andcontentment, good and evil, is possibly the greatest evidence for Godthat there is. Because it is clearly evident that behind the actionswe do, both good and bad, are powers vying for control over mankind;powers which in these last days are becoming far more obvious anddelineated. Your conscience was not an accident of nature, norsomething inherited in your gene pool from the apes or whatever elseyou think you may have evolved from. That inate sense of right andwrong, hoever weak or strong it may be, however bruised over theyears it may have become, was a gift from God. That sense of rightand wrong that we all possess is God's moral laws written on ourhearts and minds, laws which without God we are utterly unable tokeep. The result is sin, or transgression against those same laws. Itmanifests itself in a myriad of ways. Theft, violence, lust, murderetc etc. It is for this that you need forgiveness. And you need Godfor a change of heart and mind, to receive a power from beyondyourself to honour and uphold God's laws.We are all born with thepropensity to sin, and as we grew older, sin we did. Some with gustoand full measure, others less so. But all sinners. Every one of us.Aain, look around. The world is in a mess and getting worse. A crisisof stupendous proportions is heading the way of mankind and mankindhas nothing to offer to combat it. God is man's only ansr, and He isyour only answer. Whether you beleive in Him or not.

Okay, first off, Idont think its very evident that there are powers vying for controlover mankind, or that it is more evident and obvious in these fewdays. Infact, I dont understand what the reasoning behind that evenis. Throughout history, there have always been periods of famine,poverty, disease, wars, etc, interchanging with periods of relativepeace, stability, etc. And id say that in recent times, things havegotten incredibly better, especially compared to 200, 500 years ago.How many diseases weve cured, how many mouths weve fed, how manytechnological advancements weve made. The past 20 years alone, thepoverty line, has decreased by half. There are some things that havegotten worse, but its not worse than it was 200 years ago. The numberof deaths caused by war, isnt comparable to the number that diedduring wars that occurred 500 years ago. Weve become more able toidentify atrocities of war, and move towards abolishing suchatrocities and acting against them.


Secondly, I dontunderstand what you mean by “God is the answer”. I suppose Godcould come in and fix all the problems himself with a snap of thefinger, but I doubt that this is what you mean by “God is theanswer”. So can you explain what you mean by this?

Helloasanima.

Noneed to skip over the Old Testament.

Hereis a wonderful example of a narrative from the O.T which hasbeen absolutely verified by archaeology.

2Kings 18:13-16
13Now in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king ofAssyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and seizedthem.
14 Then Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king ofAssyria at Lachish, saying, I have done wrong. Withdraw from me;whatever you impose on me I will bear.
So the king of Assyriarequired of Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silverand thirty talents of gold.
15 Hezekiah gave him all thesilver which was found in the house of the Lord, and in thetreasuries of the king’s house.
16 At that time Hezekiahcut off the gold from the doors of the temple of the Lord, and fromthe doorposts which Hezekiah
king of Judah had overlaid, andgave it to the king of Assyria.

Nowread the following asanima.

TheTaylor Prism was discovered among the ruins of ancient Nineveh byColonel Taylor in 1830. This six-sided hexagonal clay prism, commonlyknown as the Taylor Prism,
was discovered among the ruins ofNineveh, the ancient capital of the Assyrian Empire. It contains theAnnals of Sennacherib himself, the Assyrian king who hadbesieged
Jerusalem in 701 BC during the reign of kingHezekiah. On the prism Sennacherib boasts that he shut up "Hezekiahthe Judahite" within Jerusalem his own royal city "like acaged bird."
This prism is among the three accountsdiscovered so far which have been left by the Assyrian monarch of hiscampaign against Israel and Judah. (bible-history.com)

Proofof the reliability of the account given in 2 Kings 18.
Sofeel free to believe what you read in the O.T, asanima.
Ihave no doubts that the texts are reliable.

Well,no, I said specificallysaid that I found the old testament to be disturbing. My problem wasnt that there are no accurate passages in the bible. It was thatthere are specifically disturbing passages in the bible.

Niceto hear from you. Really

Iquote the Bible with certain references, because it communicates mythoughts on a subject in a way I have been unable to improve upon. Imay also use it as a source document, to reference historicalincidents as it relates to the life of Jesus. You as an example mayquote say Darwin, or Dawkins, which I also have no reason to believeis truth. However, I would acknowledge that they believe in what theyhave said and that you agree with said statements quoted. So "pointof contention" eace: notat all.

Well,no, thecontention was that there is no reason to believe it, because thereis nothing within the quote that explains why it would be true, whythe Bible is true, etc. Nothing within that Quote, or most quotes,explains why we should accept it as true, and isnt convincing anymorethan a muslim who tells me that God loves me so much that he sent hisangels down to Muhammad to produce a miraculous text, the Quran.

Eachperson has an experience that they give credence to the belief in aGod, or one that contests His existence. From both positions, onlycan the belief in a God be considered spontaneous requiring noforeknowledge. Atheism requires and must consider the possibility ofa god in order for this belief to exist in the first place. This lineof reasoning by its self doesn't make either position correct. Itjust provides a stronger point to reason for the existence of Godthen not. I'm sure you would agree that one cannot come to thethought that there is no God, without first the thought of a "God"already being in place.

Sure,but I dont understandhow this would mean that there would necessarily be a stronger pointto reason for the existance of God than not. I mean, this can be trueof anything. In order to come to the thought that there is no MuslimGod, you would first need to the thought of a “Muslim God” tobegin with, but I dont think either of us agree that this means thereis a stronger point to reason for the existance of a Muslim God thannot, right?


Andalso, in a way, yes, and in a way, no. A tribe that exists somewherein the remote regions and doesnt worship a god or diety, is bydefinition an Atheist, but they wouldnt label themselves atheistsbecause they dont have the concept of a God.

Thereal shocker actually happens prior when knowledge is gained thatthere is another position that claims there is no God or the conceptof God becomes known to a person! From this moment on the person willcontinue to add or subtract to either line of reasoning that forarguments sake will support their particular position. In time thenow established (if not firmly) position will lead to questioning ofthe experience which provided the initial thought in the first place.Which might be one reason you joined TJ. A person at times may swayfrom one camp to the other and back and forth depending on theknowledge gained. This being the case. All I can provide you is myown experience, which you may choose to believe or not.

Mybelief in existence of God, had nothing to do with others, in fact ithad more to do with what I observed with the innocence of a child, bylooking at the night sky. It started small and covered the entiretythat was little me! A simple overwhelming joy and awe in what I waslooking at. This happened in New York City of all places! I say thatwith a smile, because due to the pollution :doctor: inand around the city, the clarity and grandeur of a night sky as seenlet's say from the desert, or cold winter night in the country, is abit lacking. In so saying, I might not have been able to in thatsingle moment in time, been able to verbally make it understood toanother, or describe to another the very concept of God, but intruth; what child would have a need to? Yet experience it I did! Manycan explain away my experience and don't get me wrong. Since then,"knowledge" via many vehicles of learning put doubts in mymind, yet it would always come back to that one small moment in timethat could not be erased from my memory or this body that experiencedit, try as I might to forget it.

Thebest explanation since then that came close to explain in words towhat I had felt many years later came when I read a Biblical versethat said: "Theheavens declare the glory of God....".Can one in the initial knowledge of God feel anything but awe andfear? Only a child could.

There'sa telling in the NT, where Jesus says "ButJesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come untome: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."With tears in my eyes, I say; "To be that child of innocenceonce again!"

Yet,it is not the doubts that lay heavy upon my soul, these days or eventhe loss of innocence. The days of blamelessness has left both of usbehind and have us traveling a much harder road, and in your case notnecessarily for the better I fear. For no matter what the world hasin store for this aging body of mine, there is a Hope that resides inme, which you might say is delusional, but one which I pray one dayyou too may share. Forwithout it, there is nothing but darkness which awaits you which israther depressing don't you think?

Soif you like to post the questions you would ask God go for it. Youmight be surprised that others here have probably asked the very sameones at one time or another and might have received answers for.

Ido have one question for you. What was the initial moment in timethat you came to the belief that there was no God?

Froma seeker that once was lost, but is now found.
C4E

Okay,thanks for sharing your experience. I suppose I do have severalquestions that Id like to ask God, and some id like to ask christiansas well. First of which would be, why wouldnt God reveal himself toeveryone in a way that he knows will convince everyone that heexists, or even revealing himself to prominent athiests and others ashe did with Paul. I mean, to those of us who dont believe, weconsider it kind of unfair that Paul received a revelation that God,supposedly knew would convince him, but we didnt.


In any case, Istarted out as a nonbeliever as my parents arent believersthemselves(I am japanese, and I can only assume my parents are eitherbuddhists or shintos, they never really talked about it though), andonly after I heard a good friend of mine(And we are still friends)talk about attending a bible study class in school, that I thought idtag along, and read the bible, and I suppose I was teetering aroundthe belief that “yeah, there is a God, and most likely he is thechristian God”, especially from the discussions going aroundbetween my friends during their bible get-together. It was up untilthe point where I started to be more proficient in computers, when Ivisited various forums and blogs, that I started reading and learningabout other religions, and atheism. I suppose I came to disbelieve,or not believe in christianity, at this point, and the more reading Idid, the more it convinced me that there probably isnt a God.


Again, apologiesfor the late reply as well as the very very very long message.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

In his book The reason for God (pg 126), Tim Keller recalls a Russian cosmonaut returning to earth proclaiming that he had not found God; "C. S. Lewis responded that this was like Hamlet going to the attic of his castle looking for Shakespeare. If there is a God, he wouldn't be another object in the universe that could be put in a lab and analyzed with empirical methods. He would relate to us in the way a playwright relates to the characters in his play".

SLE

 

[Christ4Ever]

idtag along, and read the bible, and I suppose I was teetering aroundthe belief that “yeah, there is a God, and most likely he is thechristian God”, especially from the discussions going aroundbetween my friends during their bible get-together. It was up untilthe point where I started to be more proficient in computers, when Ivisited various forums and blogs, that I started reading and learningabout other religions, and atheism. I suppose I came to disbelieve,or not believe in christianity, at this point, and the more reading Idid, the more it convinced me that there probably isnt a God.

There was much I had written in response to what you wrote, but the spirit moved me to ask but one question of you. What was it that had you come to believe there is a God before your increased reading?
C4E

 

[Asanima]

There was much I had written in response to what you wrote, but the spirit moved me to ask but one question of you. What was it that had you come to believe there is a God before your increased reading?
C4E

Mostly because my friends had convinced me that he exists, with arguments and presenting the bible. I dont know which was the exact one they used to convince me, and im not sure myself that i actually believed that a God exists. As i said, i was teetering with the belief somewhat.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Mostly because my friends had convinced me that he exists, with arguments and presenting the bible. I dont know which was the exact one they used to convince me, and im not sure myself that i actually believed that a God exists. As i said, i was teetering with the belief somewhat.

@Asanima
Please do not take this as an insult Asanima. Many, would, and that is not my intent.

Is it possible that you might take what others may say be it verbal or in the written word too highly, that you forgo your own experience? Maybe easily led?

The reason I say, don't be insulted, is because, I too would have fell into that category, as would I'm sure many others here. The atheist would believe that it is us that are being led. Being led by some words in a book. This argument fails because the Bible does not tell us to believe there is a God, but just reaffirms a belief that we already had that there is a God. You've read the bible, and will notice that the writers don't try to convince anyone of the existence of God, because they already know He exists outside of what they are writing.

Just as God cannot be confined in the Words of the Bible, nor can you find Him by just reading. I would quote scripture to you. Not because of where it comes from, but what it is trying to communicate. But I won't. You've probably heard them already. But I will say, Scripture, can provide attributes, characteristics that might better help you when you do hear from Him, and not the adversary.

Keep in mind it's not always like Paul's experience on his way to Damascus. (Remember, Paul already believed in God.) However, there is a common thread between them all (Besides the obvious that being God). It's never what one would expect! Also, remember that God doesn't just stop by to say hello, hi, wasn't doing anything at the moment so I figured, I go talk with Asanima. Well, it's been nice having this talk see you later.

There is a purpose, a design to all that He does. When that communication happens, you may not realize it now, but you are in for the ride of your life. I mean think about it. Folks, meet sports heroes, movie stars, etc. and say "My life will never be the same...aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh" almost fainting from the experience. So can you imagine God? Elohim (plural of fullness or greatness), Creator of all things? the names go on as does He!

It's easy to say, if he is real, then I want to hear from Him and I want to know it's Him. Never imagining the consequences of what they are asking! Do you think that you'd be unchanged? That, you'd just go back to life as you know it? You say you've read the bible. Try to recall, the lives of them that have experienced God and their lives afterwards. You might have read some of the testimonies of my brother & sisters in Christ on TJ, but you can ask them, if the experiences they've had be adequately described by their words, or but a reflection of what they experienced?

"Teetering on belief"? You can't give half of yourself or be led by what others say you have to do, unless it's go ask Him, not halfheartedly but fully committed to what may happen afterwards. Because, glorious it will be, but fearful as well! You will realize that man is even less then what they believe themselves to be, and have been granted to be so much more then they could ever imagine!
C4E

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[rhilton]

Some have questioned the use of the word virgin holding rather that it should be translated as young maiden. The Hebrew word almah, has necessarily that meaning; but it is admitted that the meaning is borne out by every other place in which the word occurs in the Old Testament (Gen. 24:43; Exod. 2:8; Ps. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; Cant. 1:3; 6:8). The LXX., writing two centuries before the birth of Christ, translate by παρθένος. The rendering “virgin” has the support of the best modern Hebraists, as Lowth, Gesenius, Ewald, Delitzsch, Kay.

Matt. 1:18 states, When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. and verse 25 states, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Matthew wrote his gospel in light of the birth of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah.

 

[love_yeshua]

Christianity spans a whole lot of different sub-divisions or denominations, and some are not correct. I think it's better to just say "believe in Christ".

 

[rhilton]

That is what the Church did until heresy crept into the Church, which necessitated a defense of the Gospel.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Christianity spans a whole lot of different sub-divisions or denominations, and some are not correct. I think it's better to just say "believe in Christ".

Hello love_Yeshua

"Believe in Christ" is fine, but requires defining. Sometimes too little information can be as confusing as too much to a seeker of truth.

It's almost as similar to saying, I believe in god. Without the characteristics/attributes of God as provided in Scripture, one would be lost as to which one is being discussed. Hindu's believe in 300 hundred thousand or more gods, Jewish Faith (Not including the Messianic Jew) in the one identified in the OT, but not Christ Jesus or Holy Spirit in the NT. The ability to identify the difference with truth of concept in the God Head, requires at times a greater clarity of definition. The same holds true with just saying "believe in Christ". There are more than one thought on this. An example is New Age, who will readily identify with a christ, even a christ consciousness but not the Christ Jesus of the NT. Once again, the need to expand Who we are talking about, requires us to ascertain certain basic facts that are not found outside of scripture.

That is why, I would say, "I am a Christian. A believer in Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Savior." Blessed be His name. Not so many words, nor could you tie me down to what denomination I belong too.

C4E

2 Corinthians 5:17, 21 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [21] For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Let us know when or if you're born again!

 

[love_yeshua]

Let us know when or if you're born again!

I'm really not sure what "born again" even means...

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm really not sure what "born again" even means...

Good morning love_Yeshua! At least where I'm at!

If I wasn't heading off to work I'd spend much time in replying to you.

That's is why I added the verses that I added.

When you made your profession of faith in Christ Jesus, that truly was the beginning of your new life. A life chosen by God for you.
Sealed with the Holy Spirit. You have been born again in a new spirit! As scripture says in John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just as I quoted 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature..." We are in Christ Jesus!

Well, l_y off to work I go! I hope the little I've written has been of some help.
C4E

 

[love_yeshua]

Good morning love_Yeshua! At least where I'm at!

If I wasn't heading off to work I'd spend much time in replying to you.

That's is why I added the verses that I added.

When you made your profession of faith in Christ Jesus, that truly was the beginning of your new life. A life chosen by God for you.
Sealed with the Holy Spirit. You have been born again in a new spirit! As scripture says in John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just as I quoted 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature..." We are in Christ Jesus!

Well, l_y off to work I go! I hope the little I've written has been of some help.
C4E

What is a profession of faith? Do you say "I believe in Jesus Christ" and then you are born again?

 

[Christ4Ever]

What is a profession of faith? Do you say "I believe in Jesus Christ" and then you are born again?

Hello love_yeshua!

I started this a couple of hours ago but have been moved to put all of that in the trash bin. Sometimes short & sweet make for a greater understanding. I can be a bit long winded at times!

Profession of Faith. Some might call it a creed or a statement of faith.

In a simpler way....it's more like being asked the question "What do you believe and why do you believe it?"

How would answer it? Keep the Gospel in mind.

C4E


1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[love_yeshua]

Hello love_yeshua!

I started this a couple of hours ago but have been moved to put all of that in the trash bin. Sometimes short & sweet make for a greater understanding. I can be a bit long winded at times!

Profession of Faith. Some might call it a creed or a statement of faith.

In a simpler way....it's more like being asked the question "What do you believe and why do you believe it?"

How would answer it? Keep the Gospel in mind.

C4E


1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

How I would answer it? Like in a complete way?

I believe that God (Elohim) created the entire universe (Genesis 1, John 1). Elohim refers to the Father who is in the Son, and the Son in the Father (John 14).

I could say I believe in 'God', but people would ask "which god? There are many gods, what is the name of your God and who is He?" I live in a place where people worship all kinds of gods, (Trinidad and Tobago) and everybody talks about "God", but they are all referring to something different...

I believe in Yahweh the Father and Yeshua ha Mashiach His only begotten Son. The Father is over all, the Son is in the Father and does His will, and the Holy Spirit does the will of Elohim (the Father and the Son.) There are different types of holy angels and beings in Heaven and other locations on earth, which all do Yahweh's will. And there are fallen angels/demons, who do the will of Lucifer/Satan. There are more dimensions on earth than humans are naturally allowed to see, and the spirits exist in these dimensions of the spirit world. I believe that all these beings exist, and directly affect our everyday lives.

I also believe that Yahweh sent His Son down to earth in human form to magnify His word, and show all humans a shining example of how to live and how to serve Yahweh. Constantly, Yeshua spoke about doing the will of His Father. He was also humble in that He didn't think he was too great to live on earth amongst humans, he simply did what His Father asked Him to. This is how He wants us to live.

Yeshua was crucified and rose again from the dead, and returned to Heaven to rule at His Father's right hand. But He will return again. In the last days leading up to His return, there will be many disasters, plagues, and men's hearts will be continually wicked as in Noah's time. The Antichrist will rise and rule the world for a brief period, and will persecute and kill some of Yahweh's servants. But those who endure this tribulation to the end will be rewarded with eternal life and will rule with Elohim forever. When Yeshua returns, it will be to judge the world. He will return as a glorious King whom everyone will fear, and will destroy the wicked.

So we have to watch for the signs of His return which are written in the Bible, and make sure we repent and pray. If we do not have the Holy Spirit, we will not be able to resist the Antichrist, and we will accept the mark of the beast. All who accept this mark will suffer the wrath of Elohim, in the form of the seven angelic trumpets spoken about in Revelation 8. And they will be destroyed from before Elohim's presence forever. We have to make sure we stay alert and do Yahweh's will in our lives, so we will have the spiritual strength to resist the world's evil and the Antichrist.

That's what I believe.

 

[DHC]

Revelations 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands;
13 and in the middle of the lamp stands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Who is 'the first and the last'?

Isaiah 44
6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Who is 'the first and the last'?