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Why believe in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Seeking Jesus' started by Chad, May 3, 2007.

  1. It's simply that the Bible states clearly, more than once, that the sabbath is the seventh day, and your Holy Convocation should be on the seventh day. It's nothing complicated or weird that I made up, it's all in the Bible. I have already spoken in detail about it in one of the Groups called Hello Word.

    Eschatology? As you might have seen in my previous posts, we are supposed to be ready when the antichrist appears so that we do not accept the Mark of the Beast. There are already people getting RFID chips in their right hands or foreheads, believers are supposed to avoid this at all costs, this is exactly what the Bible warned about.

    The fact is, many believers will be killed by the antichrist during the Tribulation, we should be aware of this and accept that fact. The antichrist is Satan, and he wants all true believers dead. The true believers will become hated by the entire world, and it's easy to understand why: they will look odd. They won't want to accept the mark of the beast, they won't want to worship the antichrist or go to church on Sunday, they won't want to exchange gifts with anyone for Christmas and whatever else.

    When the tribulation (wrath of Satan against believers) is over, that is when Yeshua will return, and He will return only as the Bible states: His sign will appear in the sky, there will be angelic trumpets, He will come from the sky, in the clouds in great power and glory, and the entire world will see Him at the same time. At that point His people will be caught up into the sky to go meet Him. I think it's important to take note of this so that we are not deceived by the many false christs that Yeshua warned about. We must take note of WHEN he will come and HOW he will appear, and anyone who claims to be Him but does not fit these descriptions is a fake. Yeshua said the false ones will do such great miracles that you can easily be deceived.

    After the believers have joined Him, and not before, the Wrath of Elohim will be poured on the earth. His wrath is for the people who took the mark of the beast. As you can see, I am very much against this "pre-trib rapture" thing and the belief that "Jesus can come at any time!" Completely false. Yeshua Himself took the time to state certain things that must happen before He comes. In Revelation it goes into detail on the order of events.

    There is no mixing this stuff up, it's written very clearly, and that's why it's troubling that people don't want to drop this pre-trib rapture doctrine. That may be one major thing that will ruin salvation for millions of christians. They will end up worshiping the antichrist, who will do such amazing miracles (he will even die and come back to life as the Bible says). Since a lot of Christians think "Jesus can return at any time", they will assume the miracle-doing antichrist is Yeshua. Instead of learning the correct specifications for the return of the real Christ.
  2. Hello love_yeshua.

    Agree with most of your post # 61.

    I will explain why the pre tribulation view is incorrect using the scripture.

    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
    2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
    3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    As you have read above there are two distinct events that must occur before Christ returns:

    1) For Christ will not return 'until the apostasy' (falling away from Christ) has first occurred.
    2) And the revealing of the 'man of lawlessness' or 'son of destruction'.

    Since these two events must occur first, then obviously the pretribulation position is incorrect. For the anti-christ to be revealed means
    simply that he has taken control of the world. The antichrist is seated in the temple of God acting as God. The tribulation has ended and Christ returns!

    I find it interesting that Paul says to the Thessalonians " Let no one in any way deceive you". Well it appears to be a very prophetic passage.
    There is definitely a most profound deception regarding the return of Christ. Just view the variety of positions offered in eschatology.
    Further that the pretribulation view is so popular these days!

    I must admit the post tribulation view is much more sound love_yeshua.

    On the mark of the beast I do also agree with the possible(?) injection of a chip.
    Although the 'mark' itself is much more difficult to narrow down.

    I must disagree with the sabbatarian emphasis. I do not have time at the moment
    to address this issue. Hopefully tomorrow I will have more time.
  3. I was reading a thread elsewhere recently entitled, "what saves us?". Throughout Christendom we hear answers and opinions of varying worth and we witness constant debate on this issue. Good blood of Christ...Calvary...the resurrection...and/or a combination of several and/or all of them.
    I do believe however that the question can be narrowed down a great deal if we reword it somewhat from "what" saves us to "Who" saves us. We then can study the scriptures and discover that yes, as we all know, Jesus is our Saviour. His blood is not our saviour, nor calvary, nor works, nor obedience...Jesus, and Jesus only.
    The question we must then answer is how? What does the Bible say?

    Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Here is an interesting text. First, we were reconciled to God by Christ's death. Paul however is saying that good as this is, and as necessary as this is, it doesn't save us! Why? Because in the OT times the Priest, who offered the sacrifice upon the altar, then entered the sanctuary and presented the blood of the sacrifice before the presence of God. Paul's letter to the Hebrews tells us that Jesus had to do this very thing also.

    Hebrews 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
    4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
    5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

    Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    The resurrection was as essential a component of our salvation as Calvary, for Paul said also:

    1 Cor. 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    If Christ was not raised from the dead, His sacrifice was worthless. His resurrection was essential fro our salvation, because it is His ministry
    in heaven through His intercession and presenting of His blood (figuratively of course) before the Father that secures our salvation. Calvary made us right with God. It provided us with the license to enter heaven. It provided us with the legal right to claim eternal life on account of the atonement. However, although the legal right was issued, we, so to speak, had the license, we hadn't learned yet how to drive!
    Calvary provided our justification. The ministry of Christ in heaven provided our sanctification. Calvary provided our legal license, the heavenly sanctuary provides our warrant of fitness. It is the intercession of Christ that changes us and makes us fit, holy, righteous men and women of God that we may enter heaven and be at home there.
    For many people who call themselves Christians, heaven would be to them a living hell. Holiness and love and righteousness finds no harmonious chord in their lives, now, and nor will it be later. Jesus is our Saviour. It is by His full ongoing ministry that we are saved. Not a one-off act of 2000 years ago, but a continuing ministry whereby He cleanses, purifies and prepares a people for the kingdom.Today.
  4. It does take a while for me to reply at times. :) Now let's see where were we................

    Which I agree with. Which leads to a couple of questions, but I will limit it to one. Is it at the time when a saved person receives the Holy Spirit, the time when they are born again?

    Why Not? If He has called you, chosen you, where is the lack of respect? If we are beautifully made in His image? Hold it....let me think on that. Where is the lack of respect? Lack of thought? Not at all sister. I am amazed!!!

    I've thought about it. Which leaves me even more amazed! That our God manifested in the flesh should die on the cross! Paul made mention of this by stating that even the method by which our Lord died was actually an impediment to both Jew and Greek

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    How one would die for another made a difference! How appearances mattered and still matter to the world! Yet we see it differently!

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Even more than I've stated in the verses about the cross, is that He would allow us to call Him Father! Is that disrespectful sister? To call God Father? Have we debased Him by doing so? or has He lifted us up, allowing us to do so?

    Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Is it just that particular phrase or the concept that is so troubling to you. If the concept then take also this verse into consideration.

    John 14:20 says At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    2 Corinthians 1:20-21 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (G728) of the Spirit in our hearts.

    2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest G728 of the Spirit.

    Earnest: Strongs G728: money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
    Now on the occult. Because words, and phrases are the same, doesn't mean that the significance or meaning of the phrases are the same. One apologist speaking on the Mormons explained what we needed to be aware of when talking with them. "We use the same words, but different dictionaries." Meaning the definitions would not coincide completely with Scriptural concepts/applications. Deception!

    These differences do not mean that we altogether give up on our own belief and prayer. We just become aware that there are differences otherwise, are we governed by what others do or what scripture would have us do? The occult will use similarities, but those who know scripture most assuredly find these teachings false. We understand that the occult as well certain religious teaching are deceptive in nature, but because we look to the Word of God and have a guide and teacher in the Holy Spirit we can be provided with discernment.

    Charles Spurgeon said “Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between right and wrong; rather, it is telling the difference between right and almost right.”

    We know that many are being lead on a path whose end is death by following falseness. Much of the problems occur when scripture that tells us to walk and live in the spirit, becomes confused with the occult practices.

    I also am concerned how much "spiritualism" has come into the church. I've addressed it here at TJ before and have even suggested some books to read to open the eyes of the unwary. If you believe in the Trinity, then truly the Holy Spirit resides in us who believe and are saved. Then if you must, phrase it in a matter that is palatable to you, do so, but yes He does reside in those who are saved as you acknowledge in the opening. That is why all the more we should behave accordingly. Are we not Temples?

    2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    We are in agreement then. Unless of cause you are calling me Pharaoh? We are chosen. Called. Are we not truly blessed sister?

    Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    You are choosing to define words with the perspective of the "world" in mind. "Accept" is also an acknowledgement. Do we not as believers accept/acknowledge the fact that we can do nothing to save ourselves? That we are sinners? Can one be still saved without this acceptance? Because this happens can it be why scripture says that many are called, but few are chosen? That is why repentance is so important to one who comes to the cross. Words can pretty much be twisted, to mean almost anything and the world does this quite effectively. We must not choose the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. If we do, then we become no better than Pharisees' Sadducees' who so bound a nation. We also can do this by taking God's Word into a verse context at the exclusion of the whole; from verse, to chapter, to book, to testament New or Old, to its entirety is what is necessary.

    I see you underlined "....the Father will give..." at the same time you did not underline "...those who ask for it." Why is that? The point was about asking for the Holy Spirit. Yes the giver is God, yet doesn't it say that it is given to those who ask?

    We acknowledge that God is the provider; Jehovah El Shaddai So is your point that we should not ask?

    Go up one. On the use of the word "accept".

    It is also completely wrong to ask the Holy Spirit to come into you. It is something I would expect only Catholics or mediums to do. They pray directly to Mary who is dead, they pray to various angels directly, they pray to the Holy Spirit, they pray to dead saints and to apostles. We absolutely can beg Elohim to grant us the Holy Spirit, but we have no business asking the Holy Spirit to come into us. To do so may even be dangerous. You might get a holy spirit, but not the one you were asking for - precisely because the real Holy Spirit isn't going to hear peoples' prayers and "enter" them. The Holy Spirit enters a person in only one way: Elohim imparts the Spirit to the person.

    Addressed already sister. You are making an association of one phrase and interjecting non-associated subjects (Catholicism, Mariology) which can be seen to be easily incorrect to make your point. Foul! :)

    Let me ask you. Do you not want Christ Jesus in your life? Do you not want God in your life? Do you not want the Holy Spirit in your life? You can see where a general statement can easily be taken out of context, of what is truly the heart of the matter in question.

    In the above paragraph you used "Holy Spirit" and "holy spirit" implying two different things It's the context that is being used, which makes the difference. Accept can mean many different things sister it can even be used as a way of saying "believe".

    Let's see if we can nail this down. When is a person saved? Is it after they repentant, acknowledgement of the sacrificial death of Christ Jesus on the Cross for those sins, His resurrection?
    For me it was the 19th of December 1979 in a small Baptist Church in Germany. I'm sure for Paul in was on that road to Damascus. When was that time for you?

    Prior to the 19th of December 1979 in a small Baptist Church in Germany if you had asked me if I believed in Jesus, I would have said yes. However, if someone had questioned me further, I would not have been able to explain God's Saving Grace, and have personalized it. Was I saved at that time?

    I do understand why for you it must be that way, but I do not. Would you not say that it is by Gods grace that we have faith to believe in the first place? Follow this line of scripture.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    Faith is the vehicle by which His mercy is shown. Now this is not to discount faith at all sister. It is at times like this that I realize how little we who are believers really know.

    Grace & Faith are intertwined. For when we talk up Grace at the cost of Faith, or vice versa, we minimize both. We speak at times as if one (believer) could actually be saved without both!

    What good would God's Grace be if we didn't have access to it or Faith if not given to us?

    It seems in our (Christians) discussion we are fine with both, until we choose sides to determine the implication of salvation, then we attack each, with probably more gusto then atheist do, who refuse to believe in any of it!!

    I will not discuss the position you hold in regards to works, for there is a pre-existing thread on this subject. There are at least 29 pages on this one thread alone and this is but one thread!

    Click on the link that says "what does jesus mean when he says" Very long read, with different positions being explained. Difficult at best to follow. I've been working on and off on a reply for months now. (LINK)

    That is why "believe" or "believer" I only use when discussing one who is saved. Why use believe when discussing an unbeliever? Add the caveats of professing to be, or fake, deceived, refuses to, are helps to separating in discussions. Chaff from the wheat so to speak. See I agree with what you've said here. :)

    Chaff from the wheat sister!
    This is the part of your posting that comes out, or should I say are quite evident in your postings. You have a tendency to come from the negative, or draw out the negative even when the thought is meant to be positive. Example above, which I underlined and made bold in your posting. You could not just take it for what it was communicating. A joy at His return. You had to expand it to include something that was not in evidence.

    Make love a part of you dear sister. Even if possible to the things you write. For we seek to uplift, and if correction is necessary, we do so in love. It is this lack of love, I believe that has helped move the Spirit of the Lord out of many churches and have opened them to much deception.

    1 Corinthians 13:2-4, 8, 13 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Charity - Greek agape - affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love

    Love you my sister in Christ.
  5. Well, you've presented your stance and I've presented mine, it's been an interesting learning experience, it was nice talking to you.
  6. Can you please all stay on topic here?
  7. #67 Christ4Ever, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2015
    Forgive me brother Chad for adding to what is a most difficult task. My desire to prove something, made me lose sight of maintaining thread consistency. Once again I beg your forgiveness dear brother.
  8. #68 Christ4Ever, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2015
    My prayer for you sister.
    Heavenly Father I bring before you someone who has such love for you that she suffers for the iniquity of others. Guide and direct her in Your righteousness and cause her to always desire Your ways. Continue to fashion her into Your holy image. For You alone are worthy to be praised in all Your goodness and mercy. In the name of Your Son Jesus Christ I pray this. Amen.
  9. #69 brakelite, Aug 17, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
    @Chad...sorry Chad for deviating frm the topic, "Why believe in Chrisrianity?". Perhaps I could add a postscript to my previous post,w hich will bring it in line with the subject matter. Christ's death, and His resurrection, is God's only provision for man's salvation. Jesus' death makes us legally right with God by paying the penalty, Jesus' resurrection and ongoing ministry in the sanctuary in heaven provides the power by which we may live lives that glorify Him. Christianity is the only religion (for want of a better word) on the planet that provides the full package. Others promise one thing and another. Some bring real contentment and peace. Others bring power. But Christ the Person, and a living relationship with Him, is the only one that offers LIFE!!

    @Christ4Ever. Dear brother, I am constantly blown away with the compassionate and loving way you communicate to others in this forum. I can well imagine that Christ's rebukes to the Pharisees was with the same compassion and love, even with tears in His eyes as He rebuked their hypocricy and sin. All here (and myself more than any) at TJ could well learn from your patience and your wisdom. Much love in Christ, and may God continue to bless you.
  10. Greetings in the Lord Jesus;
    I only read the question, not the OP; and I didn't read the 7 pages of comments that I say got off topic anyway.
    I BELIEVE IN the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; I am a follower of Christ.
    Christian, and Christians is found in the New Testament 3 times; it is a man made word for followers of Christ.
    I do not put much trust in Christianity; I TRUST GOD.
    There is every kind of hypocrite sitting within the house made with hands, and every whoredom of sin that can be named.
    They are suppose to be separate from this world; and are not. They are just as much of this world as anyone else. They seek food at the grocery store, clothes, cars, homes, depending on their money for survival; as in the days of Noah, they bought and sold, built and planted, married and are given in marriage.............. How are they separate and not "of this world"?
    Just as in the days of Jesus; the synagogue (church) sadly has not changed. They continue in their fathers traditions and doctrines of men.
    They will fight you in a heartbeat if they don't like what you say. That is not the way of Jesus. Jesus was riviled and did revile back. They still don't get it; but they are saved none the less.
    They are God's children too; I really pray they will "go ye into all the world", as He said; rather than continue to hoard up in their dens.
    All praise, honor, and glory be to God. Amen.
  11. Amen, Jesus stood up for what he believed in.

    Matt 12:34; "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
    Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
    Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
    John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
    John 2:16; and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."
  12. I can't seem to edit my original post. So I will edit it here.
    It should read "when Jesus was reviled He did not revile back". Amen.
    When He was attacked; stoned, falsely accused, led to be tossed down the hill headlong, crucified....... He did not fight back. He took it and went with them.
    The church "made with hands" will not receive someone coming in the name of the Lord.
    If you come in sit down and shut up; you are good, you are accepted into the group.
    If you say you come in the name of the Lord and speak forth the words that the Spirit is giving you, they get very offended; When the heart is pricked by someone God sent to them, that has no clue as to what is going on in there congregation, seems like they would receive that message, but no, they are offended and throw a fit.
    They already have the congregation under their submission; the congregation will not speak up because they already know what is going to happen. Amen.
    All praise, honor, and glory be to God. Amen
  13. @love_yeshua
    Words of wisdom, love it! (Proverbs 23:23)

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