Who is the Enemy?

[B-A-C]

This has been debated before here on TJ a few times.

I believe the passage about the King of Tyre to be an allegory.

In Ezek 28:13; we see this being was in the garden of Eden... given that Ezekiel was written
nearly 4,000 years (according to the traditional Biblical timeline) after Genesis, that would make this
human king pretty old indeed.
In Ezek 12:14; he is called a cherub. (angel)
In verse 16 we see this being was cast from the mountain of God.
This seems to coincide with Luke 10:18; (which is definitely about satan) and possibly Isa 14:12;
Again in verse 16 he is called a cherub (angel) again.

It seems unlikely that a human in Ezekiels times would have been in the garden..
...would have been called a cherub.
... would have been cast out of heaven.

Having said all of that.. I do not doubt that there was a human "king of Tyre" and many of his sins were similar.

 

[B-A-C]

In Isa 14:12; we see another being (the same one?)
Cast down from heaven (just like Satan in Luke 10:18; )
In Isa 14:15; it says this being will be thrust down into the pit...
Satan is also thrown into the pit in Rev 20:1-3;

This seems to be a lot of coincidence. or maybe more than coincidence.

 

[Listening]

The original Hebrew here is the word 'halal' which simply means 'shining one';
Some Bibles say "star of the morning". Some say lucifer. But no matter what you call him,
he rebelled against God.

The he you say rebelled is the king of babylon
It is not a prophecy about the fall of satan.
Though many try and make it so
It truly is not meant to be read as such,

 

[Curtis]

The verse you quote is about the fall of the king of babylon
Who worshipped the false gods of babylon known as shining ones
It was not about satan but an earthly king who called himself a god and worshipped false gods
And terrified other kings because he was so cruel and ruthless and powerful.
Do not be deceived by catholic myths.
Be wise as serpents.
Unless you read the full post and go to the link i provided you will not understand the word lucifer is not a name of the devil

Did king "Cyrus", or any king a Babylon ever fall from heaven? or rise above the clouds or the stars in the sky? Never!!! Only a "angelic" being could be capable of such things.
Maybe you are unaware of the fact that sin, and it;s motions being played out on planet earth is the same as it was when Lucifer sinned. Nothing has changed, even today those same motivations, and desires are being used today as it was when this angelic sinned from the beginning!!!! This is the reason God in his Word is using it as a description of a man that is also doing the same thing, because he acting just like his father the Devil!!! AKA (Lucifer)

 

[Curtis]

This is my theory because the Bible lacks clarity on a large number of important topics: Adam, Eve, and Lucifer fell at the same time because Lucifer was in the Garden and was originally a guardian cherub there. Ezekiel 28:13-14 explain this. Genesis 2:4 - 3:24 also explains the story of how all three fell from Eden. Lucifer aimed to "ascend
to heaven" in Isaiah 14:13, so I believe that he did not fall from Heaven as many Christians believe.

Genesis 3:14-19 explains the punishments that man, woman, and snake suffer through because of what occurred in Eden. Yet Lucifer (now being Satan) and his demons can somehow roam freely, undetected, and influence people.

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Were other angels in the garden with Lucifer? If so, what were a third of the angels doing there and what role did they play in disobeying God?
(2) Was it God's will for Lucifer to sin and corrupt Adam and Eve? If not, why didn't He stop Lucifer?
(3) Why punish women, men, and snakes, but then why give demons the power to influence humans?
(4) Can angels influence people like demons can?

The "serpent", the "Devil", "Lucifer" was already a fallen being in the garden. It was not the Serpents job to protect anything, that job was placed upon Adam.

Gen 2:15 And Jehovah Elohim took Man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to till it and to guard it. (Darby)

The KJV Bible uses the word "keep" which means "to guard, or protect." Adam failed at protecting the garden from intruders, by allowing the serpent in!!!
Adam was given "authority" over ALL of the works of God's hands. He gave up that authority up when he obeyed the serpent, and became a slave to sin.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

If it was God's plan for Adam to sin, he would not have told Adam not to eat from the tree. Where was God when this was going on, he standing right witnessing what was going on. Adam had the authority to stop the serpent but refused to do so. If Adam was obedient in what the Lord God told him to in the first place by protecting the garden there would have been no temptation.
We have a similar command in the New Testament, "give the Devil no place" (Eph 4:26-27)

 

[Listening]

Did king "Cyrus", or any king a Babylon ever fall from heaven? or rise above the clouds or the stars in the sky? Never!!! Only a "angelic" being could be capable of such things.
Maybe you are unaware of the fact that sin, and it;s motions being played out on planet earth is the same as it was when Lucifer sinned. Nothing has changed, even today those same motivations, and desires are being used today as it was when this angelic sinned from the beginning!!!! This is the reason God in his Word is using it as a description of a man that is also doing the same thing, because he acting just like his father the Devil!!! AKA (Lucifer)

You
Asked did any king ever fall from heaven
The "serpent", the "Devil", "Lucifer" was already a fallen being in the garden.
Was any anointed cherub said to be Cast out of the garden of eden and named a satan or lucifer ever?
Or was it not a serpent
Was satan ever said to have been an anointed cherub in scripture ever?
Or is it not the case that both these prophecies were aimed at and referred to the fall of two human rulers of very great and very powerful kingdoms; one The king of Babylon and the other Tyrus of tyre.

The king of babylon falls and has no burial place

You will not join them in burial, because you destroyed your land and slaughtered your own people. The offspring of evildoers will never be remembered.
Isaiah 14:20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.

The prince of Tyre and his kingdom are swallowed up in the sea.

4With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28 KJV


Both are men; neither are angelic; yet their great kingdoms and their splendour who only theirs due to God allowing them to have them, ; their kingdoms Were likened to EDEN And even HEAVEN in beauty and their anointing as Kings of these kingdoms was only by God's say so; and they lost their kingship and kingdoms due to judgment from God, who mocked them in their fall and mocked their false Shining gods also whom they wanted be known as sons of.
If you look into babylonian gods and their claims to be the gods of gods you will see why Isaiah was led to mock the fall of the king of babylon and mock the pride of the prince of Tyre.

 

[Listening]

Also the false gods oF babylon and Tyre and their wicked kingS
Made claim to Be the shining ones and the god of gods ;
and said they were the morning star That rises to the heavens

Yet They are nothing but idols and are not anything but myths given by demonic entities for men to worship.

It Is no wonder the God Who raised jesus from the dead gave him the title the bright morning star
For he is victorious and tramples and triumphs Over the Lies of the false pagan gods of the nationS, false shining ones that ruled wicked kings such as the king of babylon and Tyre.

 

[Curtis]

You
Asked did any king ever fall from heaven
The "serpent", the "Devil", "Lucifer" was already a fallen being in the garden.
Was any anointed cherub said to be Cast out of the garden of eden and named a satan or lucifer ever?
Or was it not a serpent
Was satan ever said to have been an anointed cherub in scripture ever?
Or is it not the case that both these prophecies were aimed at and referred to the fall of two human rulers of very great and very powerful kingdoms; one The king of Babylon and the other Tyrus of tyre.

The king of babylon falls and has no burial place

You will not join them in burial, because you destroyed your land and slaughtered your own people. The offspring of evildoers will never be remembered.
Isaiah 14:20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.

The prince of Tyre and his kingdom are swallowed up in the sea.

4With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28 KJV


Both are men; neither are angelic; yet their great kingdoms and their splendour who only theirs due to God allowing them to have them, ; their kingdoms Were likened to EDEN And even HEAVEN in beauty and their anointing as Kings of these kingdoms was only by God's say so; and they lost their kingship and kingdoms due to judgment from God, who mocked them in their fall and mocked their false Shining gods also whom they wanted be known as sons of.
If you look into babylonian gods and their claims to be the gods of gods you will see why Isaiah was led to mock the fall of the king of babylon and mock the pride of the prince of Tyre.

Brother, How many names does Jesus have in scripture? There are more than I want to type here. How many names does God have in scripture. Show me were Jesus Christ is said to be the Almighty God, ever lasting Father, or prince of peace. You wont find it because it has to be a "revelation" given by God to be able to understand it, and without that your "stuck" using the "carnal" mind which is the "enemy" of God.

 

[Listening]

It would be better that Those that claim to be church understood the scriptures that talk of the king of babylon and the fall or tyre to be linked with the worship of false gods and false religions.
Maybe then those who have apostate leaderships joining In worship and union with such false gods today Can really get the point when studying those verses In Isaiah and Ezekiel.
Leaders who join in unity and worship with such false gods and doctrines as islam and the whole pantheon of lying false gods.
The two passages show the church that they should have nothing to do with so called churches that associate with false gods.
Understanding the real message of these scriptures instead of bleating about False Latin Words stupidly claimed as being personal names such as lucifer, would be much more useful.
For In total error The roman church invented a word to mean a name and so missing the whole point of the verses ended up joining with false gods and creating myths for their offspring cults to write about to further deceive men and destroy souls,

 

[Shutterbug]

Good evening Sixell;

Welcome to Talk Jesus and it's good to meet you here. There are many good people here who will do everything they can to help you. But, they can't do it for you.

Who is our enemy? Abraham was described as a friend of God. The Old Testament describes a being who is called Lucifer. The name is a compound Latin term. It seems that an angel, who was not happy with his lot in life, wished to be like God. What precisely that meant as intended then is open to debate, but we know that God does not like competition. Whether that angel was given an opportunity to change back is not stated. The angel who was the Chief angel, convinced one- third of the angels to rebel against their Creator. The angel was cast down to the Earth. Exactly when this occurred is open to debate, but I doubt it matters. Demons are the angels who rebelled against God. The former Chief angel became the Devil, or Satan.

His mission is pretty simple which is to get us to turn away from God and do things our way. He has been given the power to influence us, but he final decision rests with us. We either love God Abraham did, or we do not. What determines that decision is how we consider and decide on situations in our life. Whose will come first?

Thus, our enemy is anyone who prefers to do things without God being in charge, and encouraging us to do the same. It's really that simple. While your illustrations may be worth dicsussion, they are an outline of why God sent us a Redeemer. What do you think?

Cheers,
John

 

[Listening]

Sixell
If you look at it in truth, that is the name lucifer is not a name but a word that means shining
And he The king of babylon relied on these false shinning gods and not the true God
And so the kingS fall is identified with the false gods of babylon's fall when faced with the Judgment of the true God and Contrast his power with the fairytale myths of the shInning ones of babylon.

And then if you find out who is responsible for using the latin word lucifer and who claimed That word to be a personal name for the devil, and So caused masonry and latter day saints cults etc to destroy mens souls by using that error to deceive them.
and Then If you find Out who today promotes unity with All the false gods of babylon, that fell in the face of judgment by the true God. You may see more than just trying to seek Mention of satan in scripture As though it is of any spiritual help, when it truly is not.

 

[Curtis]

Hi, to introduce myself very briefly, I am a young adult and can no longer consider myself a Christian because I heavily doubt several biblical teachings, stories, laws, and concepts. That said, I'm open to Christianity despite the heavy doubt that I have. I still go to church because I feel a social and familial obligation after bringing my family there 5 years ago. So I do talk to believers regarding my many questions. But these are for you, internet. And excuse the sheer length and amount of questions in the OP.

For the sake of organization, we'll take on one set of questions at a time and we can move on when I feel that the specific set of questions have been adequately addressed/discussed.

Also note that anything below Set 1 is incomplete and I plan on doing that later.

*Numbers in parentheses before a statement relate to the question with the same number in parentheses.

We know almost nothing of Lucifer, Satan, demons, etc. And that is very bad. We can't properly deal with an enemy that we know nothing about. So I've done a bit of studying and inquiring below.

Set 1

Spoiler

Let's start at the beginning (or at least what I would call the beginning but biblical timelines are very odd). In Heaven, Lucifer was a "guardian cherub" and such. (1)It is commonly argued that we need demons to tempt/influence us or else we wouldn't have free will.

(2)Lucifer, however, did not have any sentient being influencing him, but himself. Isiah 14:17 says, "Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom."

(3)Interestingly, sin and free will existed long before demons. Lucifer fell to the earth and became the "god" of this world. And demons are able to influence us, while angels either are not able or are not allowed to.

Yes, I understand the rules, so I'll throw bible verses or chapters in here. These particularly relate to the fall of Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28

Isiah 14

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Is Lucifer then, the origin of sin, rather than Adam and Eve?
(2) Why is it that demons lead us astray if there was no such force in Eden leading angels astray?
(3) Is it not a promotion to give Lucifer control of the world and the demons the power to mess with God's people?

Set 2

Spoiler

Next, we can look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

This is my theory because the Bible lacks clarity on a large number of important topics: Adam, Eve, and Lucifer fell at the same time because Lucifer was in the Garden and was originally a guardian cherub there. Ezekiel 28:13-14 explain this. Genesis 2:4 - 3:24 also explains the story of how all three fell from Eden. Lucifer aimed to "ascend
to heaven" in Isaiah 14:13, so I believe that he did not fall from Heaven as many Christians believe.

Genesis 3:14-19 explains the punishments that man, woman, and snake suffer through because of what occurred in Eden. Yet Lucifer (now being Satan) and his demons can somehow roam freely, undetected, and influence people.

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Were other angels in the garden with Lucifer? If so, what were a third of the angels doing there and what role did they play in disobeying God?
(2) Was it God's will for Lucifer to sin and corrupt Adam and Eve? If not, why didn't He stop Lucifer?
(3) Why punish women, men, and snakes, but then why give demons the power to influence humans?
(4) Can angels influence people like demons can?

Set 3 (Under Construction)

Spoiler

We can also look at the book of Job. For some reason, God felt the need to prove himself (or at least Job's loyalty) when challenged by Satan (which, on a side note, is pretty prideful to me). Here's the interesting thing. In this book, Satan is able to be undetected and affect the physical world.

My questions in relation to this are:
(1)
(2)
(3)

There "two" enemies in which we are engage ingainst. Number one......

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Spiritual powers, and principalities in high places. Our weapon of choice for keeping these enemies at bay is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

Number two.......

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

The "carnal" unrenewed mind is the enemy of God. We are to bring into captivity every "thought" that is contrary to the revealed Word of God. Weapon of choice is the Word of God which is the only thing that can transform our minds.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The word, "enmity" means "to hate God, and to be his enemy"

 

[Listening]

Due to the allowing by God for the use of the word lucifer a word that God knew word be used in error as a name to identify satan; when it is not. God allows the complete exposing of false cults that came out of the catholic popes antichrist church; these are the mormons who talk of lucifer; and masonry and lucifarianism and all the occult in general.
These are rendered as powerless as the so called shinning ones of babylon And are seen to be as mythological and clueless as the one who Personified lucifer as the devil ; namely the papacy who invented and championed the idea; and thus invented the false Religions and occult cults who use that word as if a personal name of the devil Before he fell ; when it is not, and Who in their words scriptures so called and incantations speak and wrote of lucifer as if a name of a angel; when it is not.

A nice trick of the popes is to mislead by its extra word myths such as a word becoming a name of a angel

We fight such things like this

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

 

[Brother-Paul]

The verse you quote is about the fall of the king of babylon
Who worshipped the false gods of babylon known as shining ones
It was not about satan but an earthly king who called himself a god and worshipped false gods
And terrified other kings because he was so cruel and ruthless and powerful.
Do not be deceived by catholic myths.
Be wise as serpents.
Unless you read the full post and go to the link i provided you will not understand the word lucifer is not a name of the devil

The picture in Isaiah 14:1-23 is that of a mighty monarch whose pride has brought him to destruction. This is what happened to Belshazzar when Darius the Mede captured Babylon in 539 B.C. (Dan. 5). Isaiah described the king's arrival in sheol, the world of the dead, where the king's wealth, glory, and power vanished. The dead kings already in sheol stood in tribute to him (Isa. 14:9), but it was all a mockery. Death is the great leveler; there are no kings in the world of the dead. "Lucifer" (v.12) is Latin for "morning star" and suggests that this king's glory did not last very long. The morning star shines but is soon swallowed up by the light of the sun.

The prophet saw in this event something far deeper than the defeat of an empire. In the fall of the king of Babylon, he saw the defeat of Satan, the "prince of this world," who seeks to energize and motivate the leaders of nations (John 12:31; Eph. 2:1-3). Daniel 10:20 indicates that Satan has assigned "princes" (fallen angels) to the various nations so that he can influence leaders to act contrary to the will of God.

This highest of God's angels tried to usurp the throne of God and capture for himself the worship that belongs only to God (Matt. 4:8-10). The name "Lucifer" ("morning star") indicates that Satan tries to imitate Jesus Christ, who is "the bright and morning star" (Rev. 22:16). "I will be like the Most High" reveals his basic strategy, for he is an imitator (Isa. 14:14; 2 Cor. 11:13-15). Like the king of Babylon, Satan will one day be humiliated and defeated. He will be cast out of heaven (Rev. 12) and finally cast into hell (20:10). Whether God is dealing with kings or angels, Proverbs 16:18 is still true: "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" (nkjv).

Do not be deceived.... Be wise as serpents.