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The Rapture

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DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE?


  • Total voters
    16
New Member
While I know that nothing is impossible with God. However, I still have great diffiuculty in believing in the Rapture? The logistics of it make no sense and it is not clear in the Bible if such an event will ever trully happen!

The Rapture really has nothing to do with the Gospel of Salvation, through the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I know my belief or non-belef in the Rapture will not alter the truth about it.

Nevertheless I would still like to dicuss it with the forum

Alan
 
Active Member
While I know that nothing is impossible with God. However, I still have great diffiuculty in believing in the Rapture? The logistics of it make no sense and it is not clear in the Bible if such an event will ever trully happen!

The Rapture really has nothing to do with the Gospel of Salvation, through the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I know my belief or non-belef in the Rapture will not alter the truth about it.

Nevertheless I would still like to dicuss it with the forum

Alan
The rapture is when God is judging His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) because of the falling away of the faith as prophesied to occur in these latter days in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as well as other iniquities for why saved believers will be left behind as disqualified and thus denied from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven as Jesus warned in Luke 12:40-49. They can be left behind by the snare of loving the cares of this life that they do not want to leave ( Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 14:15-33 )

Consider how God expects the church to excommunicate unrepentant believers in spite of correction by the church in maintaining that "feast" of fellowship in sincerity and in truth.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

See the purpose of the church in excommunication;

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

See how Jesus warned the church at Thyatira in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.


I know that the general belief is that all the Christians will be raptured, but that is not the truth in what I read in the scripture for what the rapture is really all about, which is when God is judging His House first before He comes back to judge the world in establishing His 1,000 year reign. Jesus is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints left behind to suffer the fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation as a result.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
 
Loyal Member
Rapture simply means "caught up" or "gather up". When who, where ... all these things are debated. But the Bible says some will be "caught up" to Him.

1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:31; And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:27; And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
 
New Member
Rapture simply means "caught up" or "gather up". When who, where ... all these things are debated. But the Bible says some will be "caught up" to Him.

1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:31; And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:27; And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
I still have difficultly with the idea of a Rapture in which I will be caught up leaving behind many of my beloved family members who are not born again?

I have prayed to Almighty God in Jesus Holy Name that I be considered a sort of latter day Noah for my family. I know that I am not righteous in myself but I have the Righteousness of Jesus covering my many sins. "My life is hid with God in Christ Jesus"

Noah was the only righteous person on the ark, yet God allowed his family and his sons and thier wives on the huge boat and they were all saved from the flood?

What is/are you comment(s) about this?

God Bless

Alan
 
Loyal Member
Matt 24:31; And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

matt 24 is discussing the second coming of Jesus,to me this is when we will be called up when Jesus returns. I used to believe in pre-trip rapture but the more I read about Jesus second coming the more I see that is when people are called up. But I am not 100% sure either way, Just keep living for Jesus and we will find out out soon enough. I

. In verse 21 Jesus is saying the elect are here on earth during the tribulation that is why he shortens tribulation for the elect sake. So now the question becomes well maybe they were saved during the tribulation and still leaves the possibility for the rapture. Who knows but something very interesting for sure................

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
 
Active Member
I still have difficultly with the idea of a Rapture in which I will be caught up leaving behind many of my beloved family members who are not born again?

I have prayed to Almighty God in Jesus Holy Name that I be considered a sort of latter day Noah for my family. I know that I am not righteous in myself but I have the Righteousness of Jesus covering my many sins. "My life is hid with God in Christ Jesus"

Noah was the only righteous person on the ark, yet God allowed his family and his sons and thier wives on the huge boat and they were all saved from the flood?

What is/are you comment(s) about this?

God Bless

Alan
Remember Lot's wife. She loved her life in that sinful city so much that she looked back. That was her not willing to leave.

Pray that the Lord will help you lead your family to pray also that they may escape what is coming on the earth that they will not love their lives so much that they would not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Of course, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race is also key in living a life of repentance in being His disciples to avoid being left behind because of some unrepentant iniquity. Luke 12:40-49
 
Active Member
matt 24 is discussing the second coming of Jesus,to me this is when we will be called up when Jesus returns. I used to believe in pre-trip rapture but the more I read about Jesus second coming the more I see that is when people are called up. But I am not 100% sure either way, Just keep living for Jesus and we will find out out soon enough. I

. In verse 21 Jesus is saying the elect are here on earth during the tribulation that is why he shortens tribulation for the elect sake. So now the question becomes well maybe they were saved during the tribulation and still leaves the possibility for the rapture. Who knows but something very interesting for sure................

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
There is tribulation for what we are living in now as in these latter days and then there is the great tribulation. The church at Thyatira was warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

One thing that throws many doubters about the pre great trib rapture is how Revelation use the term "first resurrection" in Matthew 20:4-5

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In context, the term first resurrection is not being used to imply that was the only resurrection, but that this resurrection of the specific saints that went through the great tribulation were to be resurrected first BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the great white throne judgment. That is what Revelation 20:5 is meaning in actuality.

We know this has to be true because at the time of this "first resurrection", Jesus is already on earth after defeating the world's armies and had locked Satan in the pit for a thousand years. So the "first resurrection" are not meeting the Lord in the air when He had long since descended and touched foot on Mount Olives to battle the world's armies as Zechariah 14:1-5 as Israel will see the King of kings as the One they had crucified in Zechariah 12: 8-10 before putting Satan in that pit for a thousand years and then that "first resurrection" is to happen. Zechariah 14:5 does imply that pre raptured saints will be coming with the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation.

So pretty much every believer has to ask the Lord Jesus Christ for wisdom in understanding all His warnings to believers to be ready because the consequence is winding up being left behind from the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven.
 
New Member

Just after posting my latest comment about the Rapture in this thread, this Chapter from the Bible came into my email inbox.
Nothing mysterious because a friend of mine, regularly sends me Scripture.


But was this confirmation from God or just a coincident??

1 Cor. 15:51-54 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

God Bless

Alan
 
Loyal Member
The tribulation can not begin until he that is restraining the wicked one from being revealed is taken out of the way. (the Church)(2 Th 2:7-8)

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.)

Here the Antichrist shall stand in the temple of God (in Jerusalem) and proclaim himself to be God.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here Jesus is referring to Jerusalem that is being besieged. God always had the Jews to be saved as his elect from day one.
 
Active Member
are you saying we are living in the tribulation right now?
Yes, with false prophets and many apostate movements of what they believe is the Holy Spirit coming with signs.. we are living in the tribulation of the falling away from the faith which Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter was to happen first as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2. That is why God will be judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture when many saved believers will be disqualified, and denied by Him from having a seat at the Marriage Supper table for being workers of iniquity. The warning to the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2 nd chapter should be proof for what happens to saved believers when they do not repent and that is to be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

There is tribulation... and then there is the great tribulation which comes after the pre great trib rapture before that fiery judgment comes on the third of the earth in setting the stage for the coming great tribulation & the mark of the beast system.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So when I read this below;

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus is referring to the time of the great tribulation when halfway thru it is when the son of perdition is revealed for why the Jews are to flee. Verse 22 hints that the lives of the elect will be shortened in those days signifying a shift to the time before that great tribulation as we read onward as describing the times we are living in with apostasy abounding in these latter days where faith is hard to find. Note verse 28 as signifying the removal of the elect which cannot be applicable to the warning to the Jews during the great tribulation to flee when that son of perdition is revealed..

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The problem with reading Matthew 24th chapter is that His disciples had asked Him 3 different kinds of questions which pertains to different times. We need His wisdom and discernment to know how to apply His words in which of the 3 questions He is answering because He is not doing it in chronological order of the 3 questions that His disciples had asked of Him at the beginning of Matthew 24th chapter.

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

There are 3 questions underlined and we need His help to apply His words to the right question since obviously, the fall of the Temple has happened but the event of that desecration will be repeated again when that Third Temple is built.
 
Loyal Member
There is tribulation for what we are living in now as in these latter days and then there is the great tribulation.
One of the problems with this statement is...

Matt 24:21; for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

There have been many times in the world when tribulation was much worse than it is right now. So we definitely are not in the great tribulation.
Also the man of perdition (the beast) will be revealed before the tribulation starts.


2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Also the two witnesses will be witnessing in Jerusalem during the "lesser tribulation" which happens just before the great tribulation. They will witness for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

We know this will happen in Jerusalem.

Rev 11:8; And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

There is a lot more I am leaving out here, but I'm short on time right now.

The abomination of desolation is a parallel prophesy. This already happened once when the first temple was till standing.
Jewish tradition says Antiochus Epiphanes III, sacrificed a swine on the altar of the temple for roughly 3 1/2 years.


Dan 11:31; "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.
Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Something similar, will happen again in the end times.

Matt 24:15; "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mark 13:14; "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

The temple (the 3rd one) will have to be built in Jerusalem before this can happen. There is no temple in Jerusalem right now.
The tribulation and the great tribulation only last for about 7 /1/2 years total.
 
Loyal Member
Matt 24:14; This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This hasn't happened yet. We are getting closer, but there are still many parts of the world that have never heard about Jesus.
Radio, Television, and the Internet help some, but these things may be hurting more than helping.


The beast will also reign over the entire Earth for 3 1/2 years. There are dozens of verses that reference this.
Dan 7:25; says a time, times, and half a time. 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 years = 3 1/2 years.

Dan 12:7; uses the same expression. Rev 12:14; also uses this expression.

Rev 11:2; says the nations of the world will "tread on the grounds of the temple" (which hasn't been built yet) for 42 months. ( Which is also 3 1/2 years)
Rev 13:5; says the will have authority over the earth for 42 months (3 1/2 years). But this doesn't happen until the two witnesses have witnessed for 3 1/2 years. ( Rev 11:3; 1,260 days )
Interestingly enough the two witnesses will lie dead in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. ( Rev 11:9-11; )


The reason I say slightly "over" 7 years total, is because the end doesn't come immediately when the sacrifice stops, but happens about 45 days later.

Dan 12:11; From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12; How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

1335 - 1290 = 45 days.
 
Active Member
One of the problems with this statement is...

Matt 24:21; for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

There have been many times in the world when tribulation was much worse than it is right now. So we definitely are not in the great tribulation.
Also the man of perdition (the beast) will be revealed before the tribulation starts.


2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


I do not have the power to help you understand what I am sharing here and so I can only hope Jesus will help you to understand even if you do not agree with it, but there are 2 events being spoken of in that chapter.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


I read the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as the one event that occurs at the end of the great tribulation, but our gathering unto Him as happening before the great tribulation.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So the day of the Bridegroom coming is signaled by the falling away of the faith which is to happen first for why God is judging His House first BEFORE the event of the man of sin will be revealed which will happen after the Bridegroom's visit..

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Verse 6 is to dignify that the man of sin will be revealed in his time as happening during the great tribulation; which is halfway though it as per the Biblical timeline. That great tribulation does not start when the man of sin reveals himself, but it starts when the order is given out to build the third Temple. So one has to take everything into account Biblically of what is being meant in His words.

Then I see the reference to the time before that great tribulation as the cause of the falling away of the faith was already at work in Paul's days.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


I see His words applying to that new age mentality that has infiltrated the churches in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign, even by the sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation. Then Paul switched from the tribulation of our days as it was happening even in Paul's days, ( but more so now ) to the time of the great tribulation when Jesus Christ as the king of kings will deal with that man of sin at the end of the great tribulation in verse 8.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Then Paul goes back to why God is judging His House first in verse 9-12 again before that event when He comes back as King of kings to judge the world.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So there are 2 events that the Lord will deal with at 2 different times: as the Bridegroom in judging His House first because of the falling away from the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) and then as the King of kings in dealing with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem and defeating Satan to put in the pit for a thousand years.

Paul addresses and reproves the iniquity of our time in this tribulation we are living in now by reminding believers of the ONLY time a believer will receive the promise of the Holy Spirit which is at the calling of the gospel and no other time.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to address those falling away from the faith in the very next chapter as wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that do not follow after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as those "movements of the 'spirit' " are where saved believers are falling down, speaking in tongues without interpretation and thus assuming it is for private use, and other signs of confusion. That new age mentality is believing one can receive the Holy Spirit again and again and again, and God will permit that strong delusion for believing that lie for why the restraining power of the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. ( Do note that the Holy Spirit is still in them as He is their seal of adoption as per Ephesians 4:30.) Paul points out in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 that we are commanded to withdraw from those that have gone astray, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers because they are still His, having His seal. That is why God is judging His House first for why many saved believers will find themselves left behind at the pre great trib rapture event BUT Jesus is faithful in doing a good job in keeping their souls while they suffer being left behind as 1 Peter 4"17-19 in the KJV maintains that message that other modern Bibles do not.

If you do not believe my application to be true, which is understandable, you have to weigh in what Paul was saying about the iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith as it was happening back in his days so that is evidence of him going back and forth in talking about 2 events. The mistake is believing that the great tribulation starts when that man of sin is revealed, but not so, when the order is given for the third Temple to be built. So Paul's reference to that man of sin being revealed happens halfway thru that great tribulation. His reference to that time of that man of sin is just a reference to the great tribulation period in general, not meaning to say that is when it actually starts.

So we are living in the tribulation of these latter days before the Bridegroom comes to judge His House first for why saved believers still found in unrepentant iniquity shall become castaways to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House at the end of the great tribulation in serving the King of kings for the millennium reign of Christ on earth.
 
Active Member
Matt 24:14; This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This hasn't happened yet.
Consider this scriptural reference below as to when that will happen which is after the pre great trib rapture event.

Revelation 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These are Christian men redeemed from the earth as in raptured. They are others raptured but the first 5 verses is testifying to those from among the raptured, that makes up that personal choir that follows Jesus Christ wherever He goes.

Then you see the gospel being preached everywhere by that first angel and then THE END comes when the second angel heralds that fall of Babylon in verse 8 below which is in detail in Revelation 18th chapter of the saints which Revelation 14:14 testify that they have been made to rest from their labor as their works will follow them into the dust.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

So that is what makes the great tribulation the great tribulation as the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth is that mark of the beast to buy and sell in order to survive in the new world order whereby the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire as every one will know the gospel, everyone will know the fall of USA and the entire western hemisphere for why the new world order comes about, and the consequence for taking the mark which is the lake of fire.

So the everlasting gospel will be preached after the pre great trib rapture and then the end will come as in the end of the world we know will come to an end as that fiery calamity will burn one third of the earth for why the new world order will come about to pool resources and unite for a common cause for survival by that mark of the beast to buy and sell.
 
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Personally -- I'm a pre-trib rapture person. The 7 years of tribulation is for the Jewish population specifically. I'm thinking that it's somewhere in Galations that the Jews rejected Pauls' teachings. And so salvation was extended to the Gentile population. So -- 'we've' been in the time of the Gentiles ever since. However, in the book of Daniel 9 or 11 -- we learn about the 70 sevens. And the last 7 hasn't happened yet. And That is the time when God - once again- 'deals' with the Jewish population. And the last half of that 7 years is called the Great Tribulation. That's when the Antichrist makes himself known. There's no reason for the Church to go through any of that. The Church being all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah / personal Savior.

And there's really nothing left To happen in history for the up-gathering of the Church to take place. Except that this world is going to continue to get worse and worse. There is a gradual falling away from God's Word -- lots of churches don't teach His Word any more.

And, actually, there Is a lot more that this world will experience Before the Great White Throne judgement takes place.

Jesus Christ Will come back for His 1,000 reign on this earth.
 
Loyal Member
There is tribulation... and then there is the great tribulation which comes after the pre great trib rapture before that fiery judgment comes on the third of the earth in setting the stage for the coming great tribulation & the mark of the beast system.
The Antichrist makes a "covenant" with Israel at the very beginning of the tribulation period, which is after the rapture of the Church. This "covenant" sets the beginning of the seven year tribulation.

Dan 9:27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.

In then in the middle of this seven year period the Antichrist breaks his promise which starts the "great tribulation."
 
Loyal Member
I find it absolutely amazing that an event mentioned and demonstrated throughout the bible can be simply 'thrown out as impossible; unlikely; mythical; or otherwise. As I see it, one either believes the bible in its entirety or he believes none of it. Truely! If God lies concerning a catching up of His saints, how can you believe Him in anything else? How can you believe He forgives sin? How can you believe He healed us? As in all things, He either speaks the truth or He lies. Make up your mind, and go for it.
 
Loyal Member
While I know that nothing is impossible with God. However, I still have great diffiuculty in believing in the Rapture? The logistics of it make no sense and it is not clear in the Bible if such an event will ever trully happen!

The Rapture really has nothing to do with the Gospel of Salvation, through the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I know my belief or non-belef in the Rapture will not alter the truth about it.

Nevertheless I would still like to dicuss it with the forum

Alan
Alan....The rapture has everything to do with salvation...He saves us from sin and the reprecussions of it.
 

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