Who is the Enemy?

[Sixell]

Hi, to introduce myself very briefly, I am a young adult and can no longer consider myself a Christian because I heavily doubt several biblical teachings, stories, laws, and concepts. That said, I'm open to Christianity despite the heavy doubt that I have. I still go to church because I feel a social and familial obligation after bringing my family there 5 years ago. So I do talk to believers regarding my many questions. But these are for you, internet. And excuse the sheer length and amount of questions in the OP.

For the sake of organization, we'll take on one set of questions at a time and we can move on when I feel that the specific set of questions have been adequately addressed/discussed.

Also note that anything below Set 1 is incomplete and I plan on doing that later.

*Numbers in parentheses before a statement relate to the question with the same number in parentheses.

We know almost nothing of Lucifer, Satan, demons, etc. And that is very bad. We can't properly deal with an enemy that we know nothing about. So I've done a bit of studying and inquiring below.

Set 1

Spoiler

Let's start at the beginning (or at least what I would call the beginning but biblical timelines are very odd). In Heaven, Lucifer was a "guardian cherub" and such. (1)It is commonly argued that we need demons to tempt/influence us or else we wouldn't have free will.

(2)Lucifer, however, did not have any sentient being influencing him, but himself. Isiah 14:17 says, "Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom."

(3)Interestingly, sin and free will existed long before demons. Lucifer fell to the earth and became the "god" of this world. And demons are able to influence us, while angels either are not able or are not allowed to.

Yes, I understand the rules, so I'll throw bible verses or chapters in here. These particularly relate to the fall of Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28

Isiah 14

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Is Lucifer then, the origin of sin, rather than Adam and Eve?
(2) Why is it that demons lead us astray if there was no such force in Eden leading angels astray?
(3) Is it not a promotion to give Lucifer control of the world and the demons the power to mess with God's people?

Set 2

Spoiler

Next, we can look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

This is my theory because the Bible lacks clarity on a large number of important topics: Adam, Eve, and Lucifer fell at the same time because Lucifer was in the Garden and was originally a guardian cherub there. Ezekiel 28:13-14 explain this. Genesis 2:4 - 3:24 also explains the story of how all three fell from Eden. Lucifer aimed to "ascend
to heaven" in Isaiah 14:13, so I believe that he did not fall from Heaven as many Christians believe.

Genesis 3:14-19 explains the punishments that man, woman, and snake suffer through because of what occurred in Eden. Yet Lucifer (now being Satan) and his demons can somehow roam freely, undetected, and influence people.

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Were other angels in the garden with Lucifer? If so, what were a third of the angels doing there and what role did they play in disobeying God?
(2) Was it God's will for Lucifer to sin and corrupt Adam and Eve? If not, why didn't He stop Lucifer?
(3) Why punish women, men, and snakes, but then why give demons the power to influence humans?
(4) Can angels influence people like demons can?

Set 3 (Under Construction)

Spoiler

We can also look at the book of Job. For some reason, God felt the need to prove himself (or at least Job's loyalty) when challenged by Satan (which, on a side note, is pretty prideful to me). Here's the interesting thing. In this book, Satan is able to be undetected and affect the physical world.

My questions in relation to this are:
(1)
(2)
(3)

 

[B-A-C]

Welcome to TJ. The fact that you're here asking questions is proof that you haven't given up yet. That's a good sign.

A lot of your questions start off with bad assumptions. But sure, the water can't be too cold, so I'm jumping in.

Set 1, point 1. This is a false assumption. We don't need demons to have free will. We don't even need demons in
order to sin. Our flesh, our "self", our ego is capable of sin on it's own.
Matt 26:41; Mark 14:38; Rom 13:14; Gal 5:16-19; etc...

Set 1, point 2... see the answer to point one. We don't need outside influence in order to choose sin.

Set 1, point 3... satan was cast out of heaven, but he wasn't the ruler of the earth at that time. He became ruler
when man chose sin.

Set 1, question 1. Yes Lucifer's sin was before man's sin. Satan was the tempter in the garden when Adam and Eve
ate the fruit, so he had already fallen before this time.

Set 1, question 2. Again, demons can lead us astray, but we can stray without their help. It is commonly taught that
when satan left heaven he took a third of the angels with him. ( Rev 12:4; Jude 1:6; etc.. )

Set 1, question 3. God gave man the power to chose. We could obey Him, or choose not to.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They chose to do this anyway... was it God's fault? Or their choice that caused this?

 

[B-A-C]

Set 2,point 1. Adam and Eve may have been in the garden before satan fell, but they didn't sin before satan fell.
Set 2, point 3. see Luke 10:18; Job 1:6-7; wanting to ascend to the throne of heaven, isn't the same thing as ascending
to heaven. Satan was cast of heaven.

Set 2, question 1. I don't know. None are mentioned. But there were certainly sinful angels mentioned in other places
in the Bible. For example in Genesis 6:2; male angels had sexual relations with human females.
It's possible these are the angels mentioned in Jude 1:6;

Set 2, question 2, because he gave man free will, the power to choose.

Set 2, question 3, because we choose sin, we choose to be sinful. We can choose not to be if we want to.
Jesus sets us free from the power of sin, none of us have to sin if we don't want to.
We are punished for the decisions we make. We don't have to make those decisions.
We are free to choose Jesus. We don't have to be punished unless we choose to be.

Set 2, question 4. I will ask you.. what is the difference between a demon and a fallen angel?
But to answer your question.. satan is an angel. he influenced Peter. ( Matt 16:23; Mark 8:33; )
also see 2 Cor 11:14-15; 2 Cor 4:4; 2 Cor 11:3;

 

[pajaro]

Set 1

Spoiler

Let's start at the beginning (or at least what I would call the beginning but biblical timelines are very odd). In Heaven, Lucifer was a "guardian cherub" and such. (1)It is commonly argued that we need demons to tempt/influence us or else we wouldn't have free will.

(2)Lucifer, however, did not have any sentient being influencing him, but himself. Isiah 14:17 says, "Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom."

(3)Interestingly, sin and free will existed long before demons. Lucifer fell to the earth and became the "god" of this world. And demons are able to influence us, while angels either are not able or are not allowed to.

Yes, I understand the rules, so I'll throw bible verses or chapters in here. These particularly relate to the fall of Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28

Isiah 14

My questions in relation to this are:
(1) Is Lucifer then, the origin of sin, rather than Adam and Eve?
(2) Why is it that demons lead us astray if there was no such force in Eden leading angels astray?
(3) Is it not a promotion to give Lucifer control of the world and the demons the power to mess with God's people?

Thanks for asking questions. I'll just speak on the first part today.

I like to simplify the issue and note that there are really just two spiritual realms: God's and Satan's. I saw a bumper sticker that described the difference nicely. One side showed Christ and said, "HE LOVES ME". The other side showed Satan and said, "HE LOVES ME NOT". Let's go for the one who wants to do us good and not harm. How happy we are that the one who loves his own is the one who has the most power and who wins the battle for his own.

The notion that Satan is a fallen angel is muddied by people's notions of what angels are, which may not be the same as what the Bible is saying. Isaiah 14:17 may actually be describing the fall of the congregations instead, but of course the spirit of Satan is behind anything not from God. The word 'demon' or 'demons' does not even occur in the Bible and people have many unBiblical notions about demons. When the Bible talks about unclean spirits, it is the Bible's way of saying a person is not saved yet. The Bible says a saved person is clean, meaning their sins have been washed by Jesus' blood' so to speak, and they are forgiven. When the Bible says that someone has a devil, it is saying that they are not saved. The Pharisee's, Jesus said, had the Devil as their father, but that does not mean that they climbed walls, had horns or foamed at the mouth. They would have seemed like reasonable people. Instead, the Bible is describing who has influence in a persons spirit and inner being. The term is not meant to be dramatic in the way Hollywood thinks very often. The gospel is sent to persons who still have Satan as their spiritual leader (which is all persons not yet saved) "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." God does not expect you or I to be superhuman. Just take everything to God and talk with him about everything. Christ came to save sinners, not superpeople. He has sinners turn to him to begin a work WHICH HE DOES in us. Just tell him everything. If you don't feel good enough or free from sin enough, tell him, and tell him you really want to be in complete victory in him, but that it will take him to do it. Tell him that's the way the gospel says, Him doing the work not you. Not you. Tell him you need him instead of you. Enjoy the goodness of God towards you and the life he has given you. He came to give us life, and that more abundantly.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi, to introduce myself very briefly, I am a young adult and can no longer consider myself a Christian because I heavily doubt several biblical teachings, stories, laws, and concepts. That said, I'm open to Christianity despite the heavy doubt that I have. I still go to church because I feel a social and familial obligation after bringing my family there 5 years ago. So I do talk to believers regarding my many questions. [/spoiler]

Hello Sixell, I read your initial message and felt concern in my heart, I later read your reply and felt the concern even more so. Sorry.

You no longer consider yourself a Christian, that is sad, but wonder what you class as a Christian, forgive me for my concern here.

You heavily doubt several biblical teachings, well that feels better, at least it is only several teachings you have concerns about. But considering your first statement, heavily doubt, then reading your replies I cannot help but be concerned.

That said you are open to Christianity despite your heavy doubt (repeated doubt?) But you are open to Christianity that is brilliant.

You still go to church because of a social and familiar obligation, this should never be the reason anyone goes to church.

You then say you talk to other believers regarding your questions, are they born again, spirit filled believers in Christ Jesus? Are they saying what they think or confirming their answers with scripture?

I do hope you do not take this personally, it is meant only through heart felt concern, if you have any doubts at all regarding Christianity, 'forget' all your Old Testament questions, go to a quiet room and pray for the Lord to reveal the Truth in His Word, start anew with the New Testament again and read it slowly through to Revelations. Try reading it aloud. As you read constantly ask, what does this mean to me, what is this saying to me. If Jesus was in your heart you would not have any doubts.


There are two basic principles at work here.


The first comes from Romans 10:17: "Faith comes from hearing the message."

The second principle comes from Luke 10:26, which describes Jesus' approach to a man who was reading the Law.

Jesus simply asked the man, "How do you read it?" In other words, Jesus was asking, "What does this say to you?"

Read the following aloud as you will be saying with your lips, all you need then is to believe in your heart.


Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

What does this say to you? (All have Sinned)


Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."

What does this say to you? (Sin [Not Sins] = Death)


John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." What does this say to you? (We Must be Born Again)


John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
What does this say to you? (There is no other way)


Romans 10:9-11 (KJV) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
What does this say to you? (If you believe God raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved, [providing you are born again])


2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV) "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." "No longer live for themselves."
What does this say to you? (We should not live for ourselves but for Christ who saved us, we should be following, doing and talking as Christ himself did)


Revelation 3:20 (KJV) "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
What does this say to you? (Ask Jesus into your life He will come in - only if we invite Him - He stands at the door of our heart and waits for us to open it!)

The New Testament will reveal the Truth in the Word to you, you will find out all you need to know about satan, his tricks and in ways in the New Testament, Jesus tells us, Paul tells us... all we need to know is in here.....

Jesus says we should become like little children, trust Him, trust in His Word. You are thirsty my friend but I cannot help but feel you are at present thirsty for the wrong drink, drink the water and eat the bread Jesus offers He is all we need.

God Bless you

 

[Itz Me]

Welcome to TJ. The fact that you're here asking questions is proof that you haven't given up yet. That's a good sign.

A lot of your questions start off with bad assumptions. But sure, the water can't be too cold, so I'm jumping in.

Set 1, point 1. This is a false assumption. We don't need demons to have free will. We don't even need demons in
order to sin. Our flesh, our "self", our ego is capable of sin on it's own.
Matt 26:41; Mark 14:38; Rom 13:14; Gal 5:16-19; etc...

Hi! 'B-A-C'
I'm having difficulty agreeing with your above quoted Comment:
In particular, your claim of, "We don't even need demons in order to sin" and "Our flesh, our 'self'. our ego is capable of sin on it's own".
Ummm. if your flesh and bones were portioned into millions of microscopic pieces, would we discover the origin of sin? Of course, the answer is, NO.
Apart from the Law, sin is dead. Sin is a spiritual power which has it's origins from out of the kingdom of darkness ... not from within man himself.
Additionally, man is not sinful or lawless by nature. Evil was brought into him. When the apostle mentions the sin 'in him', there are two parties: the sin and the person. The devil cannot talk about sin 'in him', for he is the father or the origin of sin. The devil cannot be separated from sin, for he is sin. In him no separation from darkness is possible, for he is darkness. That is why the Evil One cannot be saved and why there is no forgiveness for him and his host.
When we claim that sin originates from within man himself, we risk identifying every man with Satan himself. A most abhorent accusation!
The moment man begins to exert himself to serve God and keep his commandments, the power of sin in him begins to resist this desire and tries to make him sin. When man seeks to keep the law, the power of sin in him is provoked. If he tries to speak the truth, the devil will do all he can to infiltrate his mind with his lies. Exactly because there is a law, the powers of lawlessness begin to influence the desires, trying to lead them the wrong way.

A man's desires are subject to the commandment to covet only that which is good; that which is in accord with the law of God. Apart from the law, sin lies dead, that is, inactive. Sin is like a sleeping predator, aroused to action by the rod of the law. Generally speaking, the Commandments cannot expel the sinful desire but will intensify it. This is why the people of Israel, which had the law of God, committed greater crimes than the pagan nations around them. Pilate, who despised the law, wanted nothing to do with the death of Jesus, but the law-abiding leaders of the people incited them to murder.
The unclean spirits first try to deceive man by lies and to tempt him by provoking wrong desires, to make him their accomplice. The next tactic in the attack of the powers and principalities is to accuse the sinner. They use the law as a weapon against man, and thus 'that which is good brings death to him'. Man does not overcome sin by straining himself to keep the law and its ordinances or by punishing the man who has sinned. Sin will only be overcome by subjecting the evil spirits in the same way as Jesus did when He was on earth. In this way He even conquered death. We do not have to fight against flesh and blood but against the demons and the evil spirits of the heavens. (Eph 6:10-18).

Romans 7:17
So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
The apostle himself is not the one who takes the initiative for the sinful act, but the power of sin in him. Here Paul uncovers the real nature of evil. Man has a partner in the unseen world. When his own spirit desires to do good, he becomes inwardly divided. Paul mentions 'sin which dwells in me'. Twice the apostle says that it is not he who does sin (see verse 20) but the power which dwells in him, a spirit stronger than his own spirit. If the power of sin is active in him, while he himself cannot be active, he is a bound man. He does not do the sin, for he does not agree with it, but he has been overpowered. He is forced to sin, even though he does not want to. The joy of the gospel is that Jesus came to heal all who had been overpowered by the devil (Acts 10:38). The devil has not changed, but neither has Jesus-! These verses give a clear description of bondage. The law had not become the cause of Paul's death but the evil spirit which dwelt in him and separated him from God. This power was alien to his own real nature. It did not belong to him, and he had to be set free from it. The deceit by the power would have to stop (verse 11).
Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
To be able to overcome sin we first have to discern it. First we have to see that we ourselves are not sinful by nature but that wrong powers dwell in man. We have to break away from them. It is bad enough that men sin, but let them at least see clearly how it comes about. The start of every deliverance is that separation is made between the evil spirits and man. In my flesh dwells no strength to do good. My spirit is no match for the powers who try to push my flesh into sin. The desire alone is not sufficient power to do good. The apostle is still speaking of those who are under the law, not yet set free from the powers dwelling in them.

I could add more about the origin of evil, but I'm not wishing to make this Comment of mine too lengthy a read.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yesterday I wrote... Jesus says we should become like little children, trust Him, trust in His Word.

This is the simplicity of the Gospel. As we grow as Christians it is good to search deeper into the Word, we all do it, some rush in, some take time, we all do it, but we must be careful it is what God wants us to do, is what we are studying what God wants us to study, is it confusing us or blessing us?

We should always be prepared to go back to the New Testament and Jesus' teaching.

What about devils and demons, what happens when a believer dies, where do we go, when do we get out new bodies, what is Revelations saying, etc, etc... strange thing is in may ways it doesn't matter. Jesus has given us all we need. A child doesn't worry about these things, a child accepts without question what a parent tells him/her, it is all down to love and trust the bond between them. Jesus wants us to accept the Father through Him, believe on Him, trust in Him, abide in Him, have a close relationship, bond with Him.

A child like faith is a wonderful thing... it is also what Jesus wants us to have... to become like little children. Accept - Believe - Trust - be Blessed - Bless others, we cannot do that when we are frustrated or confused.

Heavenly and most loving Father we thank you for your patience with us and for your unfailing love, we thank you for Jesus and everything He has taught us. May we accept the Gospel as Jesus taught it, let us be the little children you so love, may we trust in you and your Word, may we abide in you and you in us, may we be Blessed so that we can Bless others, in Jesus mighty and most precious name. Amen.

 

[Sixell]

First, I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to answer. Here's what I think about some of what you all said:

Edit: This forum uses Mod approval of posts in order to be visible? That's extremely inefficient and detrimental to this conversation.

Set 1, point 1. This is a false assumption. We don't need demons to have free will. We don't even need demons in
order to sin. Our flesh, our "self", our ego is capable of sin on it's own.
Matt 26:41; Mark 14:38; Rom 13:14; Gal 5:16-19; etc...

Set 1, point 2... see the answer to point one. We don't need outside influence in order to choose sin.

Set 1, point 3... satan was cast out of heaven, but he wasn't the ruler of the earth at that time. He became ruler
when man chose sin.

Set 1, question 1. Yes Lucifer's sin was before man's sin. Satan was the tempter in the garden when Adam and Eve
ate the fruit, so he had already fallen before this time.

Set 1, question 2. Again, demons can lead us astray, but we can stray without their help. It is commonly taught that
when satan left heaven he took a third of the angels with him. ( Rev 12:4; Jude 1:6; etc.. )

Set 1, question 3. God gave man the power to chose. We could obey Him, or choose not to.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They chose to do this anyway... was it God's fault? Or their choice that caused this?

If you don't believe that we need demons to sin and that humans never did, then does that mean that God created us with evil in us already or just the potential for it?

Also, if Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve, then there is no reason for Satan to be there unless it was God's will. And that seems odd.

I like to simplify the issue and note that there are really just two spiritual realms: God's and Satan's. I saw a bumper sticker that described the difference nicely. One side showed Christ and said, "HE LOVES ME". The other side showed Satan and said, "HE LOVES ME NOT". Let's go for the one who wants to do us good and not harm. How happy we are that the one who loves his own is the one who has the most power and who wins the battle for his own.

The notion that Satan is a fallen angel is muddied by people's notions of what angels are, which may not be the same as what the Bible is saying. Isaiah 14:17 may actually be describing the fall of the congregations instead, but of course the spirit of Satan is behind anything not from God. The word 'demon' or 'demons' does not even occur in the Bible and people have many unBiblical notions about demons. When the Bible talks about unclean spirits, it is the Bible's way of saying a person is not saved yet. The Bible says a saved person is clean, meaning their sins have been washed by Jesus' blood' so to speak, and they are forgiven. When the Bible says that someone has a devil, it is saying that they are not saved. The Pharisee's, Jesus said, had the Devil as their father, but that does not mean that they climbed walls, had horns or foamed at the mouth. They would have seemed like reasonable people. Instead, the Bible is describing who has influence in a persons spirit and inner being. The term is not meant to be dramatic in the way Hollywood thinks very often. The gospel is sent to persons who still have Satan as their spiritual leader (which is all persons not yet saved) "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." God does not expect you or I to be superhuman. Just take everything to God and talk with him about everything. Christ came to save sinners, not superpeople. He has sinners turn to him to begin a work WHICH HE DOES in us. Just tell him everything. If you don't feel good enough or free from sin enough, tell him, and tell him you really want to be in complete victory in him, but that it will take him to do it. Tell him that's the way the gospel says, Him doing the work not you. Not you. Tell him you need him instead of you. Enjoy the goodness of God towards you and the life he has given you. He came to give us life, and that more abundantly.

So when Lucifer falls, he has the power to influence humans? When humans (Adam and Eve) fall, it just makes work hard and gives women birth pains? Also, if anyone/thing is against God then why is it that the only human (biblically, of course) to be called "Satan" (which I hear simply means "enemy") is Peter?
Also, if that is true (the word "demon" not actually being in the bible) then that may be a very interesting point to study.

You then say you talk to other believers regarding your questions, are they born again, spirit filled believers in Christ Jesus? Are they saying what they think or confirming their answers with scripture?

I do hope you do not take this personally, it is meant only through heart felt concern, if you have any doubts at all regarding Christianity, 'forget' all your Old Testament questions, go to a quiet room and pray for the Lord to reveal the Truth in His Word, start anew with the New Testament again and read it slowly through to Revelations. Try reading it aloud. As you read constantly ask, what does this mean to me, what is this saying to me. If Jesus was in your heart you would not have any doubts.


There are two basic principles at work here.


The first comes from Romans 10:17: "Faith comes from hearing the message."

The second principle comes from Luke 10:26, which describes Jesus' approach to a man who was reading the Law.

Jesus simply asked the man, "How do you read it?" In other words, Jesus was asking, "What does this say to you?"

Read the following aloud as you will be saying with your lips, all you need then is to believe in your heart.

The New Testament will reveal the Truth in the Word to you, you will find out all you need to know about satan, his tricks and in ways in the New Testament, Jesus tells us, Paul tells us... all we need to know is in here.....

Jesus says we should become like little children, trust Him, trust in His Word. You are thirsty my friend but I cannot help but feel you are at present thirsty for the wrong drink, drink the water and eat the bread Jesus offers He is all we need.

God Bless you

Thanks for your concern, but this isn't about my salvation. This is about the nature of evil and what prevents or ruins salvation. So in this case, it may sound crazy to you, but salvation is a secondary issue here if we're being attacked by something we don't know about about and that Christians can't even agree on. The lack of agreement with believers who I'm assuming are Spirit-filled and all of that good stuff makes the bible seem less and less credible.

Now, as for your points, you just tried to make Luke 10:26 about all bible verses when it was about the clarity of one set of bible verses. It was about loving God with all your heart and such. That's clearly stated in the bible and is hard to find some crazily different interpretation for it. The way you cited this verse seems to me that I must read and come up with my own interpretation. That kind of logic leads to doctrinal differences and is divisive. The meaning of the "word of God" ought to be singular and standardized.

If all we needed to know was in the New Testament, then we wouldn't be having this conversation and you would be able to cite verses with a single clear interpretation.

And yes, Jesus says believe like little children. But guess what? Children are innocent, but also extremely impressionable and easy to indoctrinate. If I followed that logic, I could believe just about anything. By that logic, I could believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and other things that are clearly fiction. So, unfortunately, I don't buy your reasoning or your use of scripture.

Hi! 'B-A-C'
I'm having difficulty agreeing with your above quoted Comment:
In particular, your claim of, "We don't even need demons in order to sin" and "Our flesh, our 'self'. our ego is capable of sin on it's own".
Ummm. if your flesh and bones were portioned into millions of microscopic pieces, would we discover the origin of sin? Of course, the answer is, NO.
Apart from the Law, sin is dead. Sin is a spiritual power which has it's origins from out of the kingdom of darkness ... not from within man himself.
Additionally, man is not sinful or lawless by nature. Evil was brought into him. When the apostle mentions the sin 'in him', there are two parties: the sin and the person. The devil cannot talk about sin 'in him', for he is the father or the origin of sin. The devil cannot be separated from sin, for he is sin. In him no separation from darkness is possible, for he is darkness. That is why the Evil One cannot be saved and why there is no forgiveness for him and his host.
When we claim that sin originates from within man himself, we risk identifying every man with Satan himself. A most abhorent accusation!
The moment man begins to exert himself to serve God and keep his commandments, the power of sin in him begins to resist this desire and tries to make him sin. When man seeks to keep the law, the power of sin in him is provoked. If he tries to speak the truth, the devil will do all he can to infiltrate his mind with his lies. Exactly because there is a law, the powers of lawlessness begin to influence the desires, trying to lead them the wrong way.

Romans 7:17
So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
The apostle himself is not the one who takes the initiative for the sinful act, but the power of sin in him. Here Paul uncovers the real nature of evil. Man has a partner in the unseen world. When his own spirit desires to do good, he becomes inwardly divided. Paul mentions 'sin which dwells in me'. Twice the apostle says that it is not he who does sin (see verse 20) but the power which dwells in him, a spirit stronger than his own spirit. If the power of sin is active in him, while he himself cannot be active, he is a bound man. He does not do the sin, for he does not agree with it, but he has been overpowered. He is forced to sin, even though he does not want to. The joy of the gospel is that Jesus came to heal all who had been overpowered by the devil (Acts 10:38). The devil has not changed, but neither has Jesus-! These verses give a clear description of bondage. The law had not become the cause of Paul's death but the evil spirit which dwelt in him and separated him from God. This power was alien to his own real nature. It did not belong to him, and he had to be set free from it. The deceit by the power would have to stop (verse 11).
Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
To be able to overcome sin we first have to discern it. First we have to see that we ourselves are not sinful by nature but that wrong powers dwell in man. We have to break away from them. It is bad enough that men sin, but let them at least see clearly how it comes about. The start of every deliverance is that separation is made between the evil spirits and man. In my flesh dwells no strength to do good. My spirit is no match for the powers who try to push my flesh into sin. The desire alone is not sufficient power to do good. The apostle is still speaking of those who are under the law, not yet set free from the powers dwelling in them.

If you want to argue that sin was not originally within Adam and Eve, then what was the origin of sin within Lucifer as an angel? No other "kingdom" existed before Lucifer fell. So one thing that I might say is that people seem to claim to know more than what they can actually grasp about sin. Your beliefs would raise a ton of unanswerable questions regarding the events which occurred between Lucifer and God at the time (which clearly isn't fully covered in the bible).

Also, you say that a spirit stronger than Paul's binds him? But what kind of power is that? I figured being saved and close to God would let you break those chains. Or is that some exaggerated rhetoric used to lure/keep people into churches? Another thing you mentioned is Jesus healing all who had been overpowered by the Devil. Why then (according to Christians) is concept of spiritual warfare (which I want to ask about later in the OP) a thing?

 

[Chad]

Edit: This forum uses Mod approval of posts in order to be visible? That's extremely inefficient and detrimental to this conversation.

Is it? What do you do then if someone tries to post malicious links in the post or graphic videos or pictures then? Any ideas how to avoid that and allow you to post links so I don't have to hear useless criticism?

 

[B-A-C]

Some people think the definition of conservative and radical is that one group wants change, and the other group
wants things to stay the same. However the classical definition is that one group believes mankind is good
and becomes evil by outside influence. The other group believes mankind is evil and becomes good by outside
influence.

Satan can influence us.. but he can't force us to do anything. The old saying "the devil made me do it" is a lie.
He might influence you to do it.. but he can't make you do it.

Studies have been done with infants in orphanages... even children who have never watched television or really
had any outside influence learn how to be selfish "mine, mine", violent "Tommy hit me", untruthful "I didn't take it"
and thieves "I don't know how Susie's dolly got into my bed last night".

The Bible says we are born into sin. (Psal 51:5; Eph 2:3; Rom 5:12; Gen 6:5; Psal 58:3; etc...
The Bible talks about the sinful nature of the flesh. Gal 5:17; Gal 5:24; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 2:3; Rom 13:14; etc...

The Bible talks about taking off the old man and putting on the new man, becoming a new creation.
The old man is sinful, the new man desires not to be. If it was only satan that caused us to be sinful
there would be no need for this transformation. There would be no need to die to the old "self".

 

[Itz Me]

If you want to argue that sin was not originally within Adam and Eve, then what was the origin of sin within Lucifer as an angel? No other "kingdom" existed before Lucifer fell. So one thing that I might say is that people seem to claim to know more than what they can actually grasp about sin. Your beliefs would raise a ton of unanswerable questions regarding the events which occurred between Lucifer and God at the time (which clearly isn't fully covered in the bible).

Also, you say that a spirit stronger than Paul's binds him? But what kind of power is that? I figured being saved and close to God would let you break those chains. Or is that some exaggerated rhetoric used to lure/keep people into churches? Another thing you mentioned is Jesus healing all who had been overpowered by the Devil. Why then (according to Christians) is concept of spiritual warfare (which I want to ask about later in the OP) a thing?

Yes, you're indeed correct about present day Christians having a "ton of unanswerable questions". Since no one can truthfully claim to have all the answers, it goes without saying that there yet remains a lot of questions ... mine included.

The Scripture says about the Holy Spirit, :He dwells with you, and will be in you". The same might be said of the evil spirits; they dwell with you, and try to be in you.
In the letter of James we read of the way in which the powers of darkness operate, how they make man their collaborator. Their desire is to be with man, and to establish contact with him and impregnate his desires. It is when man's desire is detached from God, as James 1:15 says: '"Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin". This kind of sin comes into being in the inner man and lives in man's heart only.

John says: "He who commits sin is of the devil", meaning: has been impregnated by the devil. When man commits sin, the origin of his iniquity is not in himself but in the evil powers with whom he has had fellowship with. James 1:15 says that sin is born in the unseen world after having been conceived. The impregnation takes place from the outside.
In the days of James there were people who taught they were 'tempted by God'.
Temptation may be passive as well active . It is passive when a person, through his desires, draws evil towards himself and active when he tries to convey it towards somebody else. The devil shows the person something enticing (active), and then his desires begin to covet it (passive). Never is evil the product of fellowship with God. This is impossible. "No one born of God commits sin, for God's nature abides an him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God", (1John 3:9).
As for God, the apostle stated that it is impossible for Him to be involved in any way: "God cannot be tempted with evil (passive) and He himself tempts no one (active)", (James 1:14). God has nothing to do with sin. "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire".
The fruits of the seed of God are quite different from those of the evil one. God is spirit and, coming from Him, the Holy Spirit unites Himself with man's born-again spirit. Good works are the fruit of this fellowship. The fruits of fellowship with the evil spirits are sinful works.
The sources of good and evil are both in the spiritual world. In natural life it takes intercourse to conceive fruit. The same applies to the spiritual or unseen world. The results show in the works which are called after the conceivers: fruits of the Spirit or works of darkness. Thus sin is a fruit in the spiritual world, brought about as a result of fellowship between a human spirit and an evil one. In the visible world sin manifests itself by means of the flesh. as work of the flesh.

In the Old Testament, orientated as it was at the visible world only, hidden sin could not be punished. No man could be killed because he looked at a woman lustfully. However, the New Covenant reveals the very nature of sin and this is why Jesus says a man doing this has already committed adultery in his heart. He also said: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and who ever kills shall be liable to judgment'. But I say to you that every man who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment".

The moment sin comes out into the open it enters the visible world as a work of the flesh.
God's words to Cain also show that sin approaches from the outside: "If you do not do well (if your desire is detached from God, sin is crouching at the door; its desire is for you".
The same spiritual law applies when man is claimed by the Spirit of God. He who adheres to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him. The fruits of this contact are quite different, though. They are love, joy, peace, loving-kindness, charity, goodness, faith and self control . When these fruits are revealed in the visible world the good works are born in which the man of God walks.

The bible uses the word sin in four different meanings:
The first two meanings relates to the stages of conception and the birth of sin.
When the Bible says that sin came into the world through one man, the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master, Satan. Satan took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: "You were once slaves of sin"', "'He who has died is free from sin", (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); "Set free from sin"; "Sin deceived me"; "So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me"..
Just as child is named after his father so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. "I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin", "He who commits sin is of the devil". The verb 'to sin' has the meaning of committing a sinful act. "Go and do not sin again". "Who sinned, this man or his parents?". "Be angry but do not sin".
In between these first two stages, sin is in the inner man in a kind of embryonic state.
This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world. Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet sin has not been brought forth as an act. An example of this is hate; which before the, Lord is regarded as murder. So too is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin stays behind in the soul, the guilt or debt of sin. This the bible calls the treasure of wrath. The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: '"The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world",. "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her", "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins".

Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works. Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made his Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be "the righteousness of God".
This righteousness is reckoned to us. "He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: "If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness, (he goes on committing sin), in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord, (Isaiah 26:10).

These words apply not only to natural life but also to spiritual life: "It is not good that the man should be alone". True spiritual marriage consists of communion between the Spirit of God and that of man. "He who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him". "He yearns jealously over the spirit which he made to dwell in us". The basis of this divine communion is love in perfect freedom.
However, a person's fellowship with the evil one is based upon compulsion instead of freedom. After the fall, man's fellowship with God was damaged, therefore there was a change in the marriage between man and woman, the image of that fellowship. Freedom and equality were gone: 'The man shall rule over you'. Nevertheless, whenever the gospel of Jesus Christ is accepted, wherever there is knowledge of the spiritual laws, marriage will also share in the restoration. Inequality and dominion are finished because, as James says, "From the beginning it was not so".

Your Comment also included this statement: "Your beliefs would raise a ton of unanswerable questions regarding the events which occurred between Lucifer and God at the time (which clearly isn't fully covered in the bible)"
On the contrary, the events which occurred between Lucifer and God are plainly discussed throughout the Bible narrative. Unfortunately, to explain each piece of the 'puzzle' would require quite a lengthy Post. If you wish me to further comment on this, jus' let me know ... happy to try and be of some help for you.
.

 

[B-A-C]

On a side note... I got a bit of a chuckle when I refreshed my browser in this thread..

Who is the Enemy? .................................. Itz Me.

LOL.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi, to introduce myself very briefly, I am a young adult and can no longer consider myself a Christian because I heavily doubt several biblical teachings, stories, laws, and concepts. That said, I'm open to Christianity despite the heavy doubt that I have. I still go to church because I feel a social and familial obligation after bringing my family there 5 years ago. So I do talk to believers regarding my many questions.

Hello Sixell, I read your initial message and felt concern in my heart, I later read your reply and felt the concern even more so. Sorry.

You no longer consider yourself a Christian, that is sad, but wonder what you class as a Christian, forgive me for my concern here.

You heavily doubt several biblical teachings, well that feels better, at least it is only several teachings you have concerns about. But considering your first statement, heavily doubt, then reading your replies I cannot help but be concerned.

That said you are open to Christianity despite your heavy doubt (repeated doubt?) But you are open to Christianity that is brilliant.

You still go to church because of a social and familiar obligation, this should never be the reason anyone goes to church.

Hello Sixell, Looking at your recent comments I cannot help but wonder why you listed the above, why not just ask the question you wanted answers for, or just list the items for open debate. Writing the above items is really saying you need our heart felt prayers...

Having made the initial comments, in the first paragraph of your first statement, I still have to say... if scripture is causing you to (heavily) doubt so much there should be reason for concern.

I pray you are not offended by anything I have said, to me your initial statement was enough to cause concern in our hearts, reading and studying scripture should always be a joy. Good or bad, challenging or not, reading and studying scripture and coming closer to the Father through our precious Lord and Saviour should always a joy. I will no longer reply on this thread. God Bless you.

Peace be with you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

On a side note... I got a bit of a chuckle when I refreshed my browser in this thread..

Who is the Enemy? .................................. Itz Me.

LOL.

B-A-C I am still laughing, mine showed.....

Who is the Enemy? .................................. Itz Me.
B-A-C
Who is the Enemy? .................................. Itz Me.
B-A-C
Who is the Enemy? .................................. Itz Me.
B-A-C

Sorry just had to add that Chuckle

 

[Curtis]

Let's start at the beginning (or at least what I would call the beginning but biblical timelines are very odd). In Heaven, Lucifer was a "guardian cherub" and such. (1)It is commonly argued that we need demons to tempt/influence us or else we wouldn't have free will.

(2)Lucifer, however, did not have any sentient being influencing him, but himself. Isiah 14:17 says, "Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom."

(3)Interestingly, sin and free will existed long before demons. Lucifer fell to the earth and became the "god" of this world. And demons are able to influence us, while angels either are not able or are not allowed to.

All of God's created beings are given the right to either obey or disobey. Even today they have this right, but now seeing what happened to Lucifer is good reason not to!! How can a being fight against God who knows all your thoughts, and every thing that is going before it happens? There is no Wisdom against God.

After man fell his heart became "darkened" to were he could care less about God, neither could man ever discover God on his own. Without this man had no choice but became a slave to sin.
As scripture tells us.....

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

If God did not do this in revealing himself to man he would have no choice at all. There fore God has set before us life, and death, blessing, and cursing, there fore chose life that you and your seed may live.(Deut 30:19)

Lucifer was the first being to sin, which is why the Bible tells us "he sinned from the beginning" (1 John 3:8) When Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders of his day he said to them.....

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These people were descendants of Adam, but Jesus said they were of their father the Devil!!! You would think he would have said, "you are your father Adam...." but Adam was not the first to sin it was Lucifer.

 

[Listening]

To the poster

Lucifer is not a name of any being
It is a latin word that was put into the scriptures that are talking about the fall of the king of babylon
Who worshipped so called shining ones of the false babylonian religions, of whom he was the king over; he being the most powerful king in the world in the time The prophecy which was a lament for his fall,
He ruled over all the other kings who were in fear of his power.
The word lucifer was a catholic addition
And the word lucifer was not n the original text, neither in the greek or hebrew.

Lucifer as a personal name of the devil is a myth owned and much used by the papacy.
It is a myth created on purpose by misleading.
God allowed it to be put into the king james version of the bible.
With the result of exposing many cults that have come out of the catholic church
Cults that expand on the lucifer myth, such as latter day saints and i think the jehovas witnesses.
Amongst other no doubt.
By allowing this, God exposes these cults So called scriptures as nonsense For one who knows the truth about this latin word and how it managed to get into to The book of Isaiah .
Isaiah and jesus never heard of lucifer because the word was not in the scriptures they read.
If lucifer was the name of satan before he fell Jesus would have known this.

You need to read All of this to understand how this error arose.


Just about every Christian I know takes for granted that "Lucifer" is the devil. If you look up the name "Lucifer" in the dictionary, you will find him defined as "…a proud, rebellious archangel, identified with Satan, who fell from heaven."

Throughout much, though not all of, Christian history, it has been thought and taught that "Lucifer" is one of the names for the devil. In Christian writing, Lucifer’s identify as the devil is taken for granted: "His name is Lucifer (Satan)…" and "Lucifer, known as Satan after his rebellion…" etc. etc. Typically, "Lucifer" is depicted as a goat-like figure with horns, cloven hoofs, and a tail.

The fact of the matter is that Satan the devil is no where described in the Bible as Lucifer. The only Scriptural reference to a "Lucifer" is in Isaiah 14:12 – and then only in some translations. The proper name "Lucifer" does not appear in the original text of Isaiah.

Read it all here
Who is

 

[Curtis]

To the poster

Lucifer is not a name of any being
It is a latin word that was put into the scriptures that a re talking about the fall of the king of babylon
Who worshipped so called shining ones of the false babylonian religions, of whom he was the king over; he bring the most powerful king in the world in the time The prophecy which was a lament for hid fall, hr ruled over all the other kings who were in fear of his power.
The word lucifer was a catholic addition
And the word lucifer was bot in the original text, neither in the greek or hebrew.
Lucifer as a personal name of the devil is a myth owned and much used by the papacy.
It os a myth created on purpose by misleading.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Is there any human being that can make claim to being able to "fallen from Heaven", or "ascend above the clouds", or "ascend above the stars", or sit upon the mount congregation in the sides of the north", or be like the Most High", or "weaken the nations on earth"??? Never, but it is speaking of a spiritual being who tried this feat, but failed in his attempt along with all the other angels who sinned with him.

 

[B-A-C]

The original Hebrew here is the word 'halal' which simply means 'shining one';
Some Bibles say "star of the morning". Some say lucifer. But no matter what you call him,
he rebelled against God.

 

[Listening]

Let's start at the beginning (or at least what I would call the beginning but biblical timelines are very odd). In Heaven, Lucifer was a "guardian cherub"

You get this wrong idea from a similar verse In ezekiel
Which again is about the fall of human royalty this time not the king of babylon
But the Prince of Tyre.

again this is an error
For a start lucifer is not mentioned in this prophecy about the fall of the Prince of tyre
And No where in scripture are we told any anointed cherub fell In the Garden of eden.
This is an allusion to the greatness of the prince of tyres fall and his Losing his kingdom
is likened to Losing eden
The prince of tyre Was allowed to become a leader
And he presided over a kingdom
And his kingdom was great and beautiful and he was so to speak anointed or given to rule
By God , but he rebelled and he and his kingdom fell in judgment.

Satan is not an anointed cherub Ever is scripture
Neither is lucifer In scripture an anointed cherub, the prince of tyre is .
Satan is called a serpent in scripture , and that serpent is the one who tempted eve
But the serpent is never said to be an anointed cherub.

These are merely catholic myths.

 

[Listening]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Is there any human being that can make claim to being able to "fallen from Heaven", or "ascend above the clouds", or "ascend above the stars", or sit upon the mount congregation in the sides of the north", or be like the Most High", or "weaken the nations on earth"??? Never, but it is speaking of a spiritual being who tried this feat, but failed in his attempt along with all the other angels who sinned with him.

The verse you quote is about the fall of the king of babylon
Who worshipped the false gods of babylon known as shining ones
It was not about satan but an earthly king who called himself a god and worshipped false gods
And terrified other kings because he was so cruel and ruthless and powerful.
Do not be deceived by catholic myths.
Be wise as serpents.
Unless you read the full post and go to the link i provided you will not understand the word lucifer is not a name of the devil