What does the Bible teach about election?

[RJ]

Joe, you are focusing on the wrong spot as many people do today in Christianity. Instead of focusing on ourselves with the word receive, focus on God in the giving. One can involuntarily receive something. People receive the gift of life as babies without asking for it. People receive the release of death without asking for it or acting for it. The elderly receive help when they are no longer able to do anything for themselves. To receive something does not always involve a willful act on our part. It simply means we now have something we did not have before. However, in order to receive something, there is a necessity of one being the giver. God is the Giver in the instance of receiving salvation. The way we receive Him is by the receipt of the Holy Spirit. God gives the Holy Spirit as He sees fit and not in accordance with our own will.

Again, instead of focusing on self and attributing salvation to your own works, put the focus on God and His glory. We received without asking but He always gives in accordance with His will.

I supposed God forced Adam to eat the apple?
I suppose Abraham was forced by God to place His son on the alter?

Jesus said: " I stand at the door and knock, and Who ever opens the door , I will come in and sup with Him".

Loco, does God open the door that Jesus talked about or do we?

 

[rojoloco]

I supposed God forced Adam to eat the apple?
I suppose Abraham was forced by God to place His son on the alter?

Jesus said: " I stand at the door and knock, and Who ever opens the door , I will come in and sup with Him".

Loco, does God open the door that Jesus talked about or do we?

You are confusing day to day activities with salvation. Salvation is in an entirely different category. As for what they did, I hold to it that they only did it because God moved them to be righteous or God abandoned them to fall into sin. Either way, it was all a part of God's plan. Nothing was an afterthought.

 

[jiggyfly]

You are confusing day to day activities with salvation. Salvation is in an entirely different category. As for what they did, I hold to it that they only did it because God moved them to be righteous or God abandoned them to fall into sin. Either way, it was all a part of God's plan. Nothing was an afterthought.

Let me get this down right, you believe that those who sin do so because and only because God abandoned them. You also believe that those who sin will be tortured endlessly or annihilated by God because He abandoned them. So Adam didn't abandon God, God abandoned Adam.

With this paradigm God has abandoned everyone.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


We definitely do not share the same impressions about God or His character. I wonder, if you have, what are your direct experiences with God?

 

[RJ]

You are confusing day to day activities with salvation. Salvation is in an entirely different category. As for what they did, I hold to it that they only did it because God moved them to be righteous or God abandoned them to fall into sin. Either way, it was all a part of God's plan. Nothing was an afterthought.

One last time I will respectfully ask you for a direct answer to a direct question, no beating around the bush, rojoloco:

Jesus said: " I stand at the door and knock, and Who ever opens the door , I will come in and sup with Him".

Since Jesus is God, who has to open the door here, God or you?
Just answer: God opens the door or you open the door, which is it?

 

[Mark of Faith]

I have been trying to follow this thread in email updates, but there are posts that I may have missed, so forgive me if I make some points that have already been discussed.

In my last post here I refered to the difference of doctrine between those who follow the predestination view and those that follow the Arminian free-will view.

I feel it good, however, to bring in a midway balanced view which, in my own theological stance, is perfectly harmonious.

Men (and, it should go without saying, women) are perfectly free to make their own decisions, choices, and actions. We were created in God's image, and part of that image is the ability to choose, to have free will.

Adam excercised this free will when he chose Eve before God and did what his wife wanted rather than what God wanted, even though Eve had carelessly allowed herself to be deceived by the serpent.

We too, act on our free will many times each day. We make choices.

I believe this continuing aspect of man's nature is well noted in Scripture.

Yet, the Eternal Salvation offered through the Blood of Christ cannot be received unless first God calls us. To use the Scripture that Joe Johnston brought into the discussion, we cannot receive Jesus unless He first knocks at the door. That is one primary reason for the Great Commission: a sinner cannot turn to Christ unless he is first told about Christ.

But who is the initiator here? It is God. Before I was born-again, I was condemned. I was an alien to the promises of Scripture. Scripture actually was firmly condemning of me, calling me "sold under sin" and a "God-hater". (Romans, I think 11-13)

Now, in my pre-regenerate state I hated God and was an alien from His promises, how could I then choose to follow Him? I would, and indeed for some time did, run far from Him. No, the only way I could come to love God, to be washed clean in the blood of Christ and be regenerated by the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost, would be if the Holy Spirit planted and watered that desire in my heart.

"We love Him because He first loved us."

Yet, the process of salvation does require action on our part. But it is God who calls, and ultimately He who chooses.

As to how God can condemn non-believers to torment when He has not chosen them, the issue is that it is dependent on who we give the glory to.

If I choose to sin, that is my choice. If I choose God, it is He who has chosen me first. Sinners cannot use the election issue to escape blame for their sins, as Paul is clear in Romans.

Yet if we are saved, we cannot and should not attempt to claim some glory for ourselves by saying that we chose to be saved.

In the end the issue is this: if we are saved, do we choose to give Glory to God. Or do we persist in some prideful belief that we were so wonderful as to choose God even when we were dead in sin.

Mark, with many blessings to all who have taken part in this thread.

(P.S. I have refered to Scripture, but haven't given references. I hope someone can bring the references, or I may in due course. Mostly I speak from Romans.)

 

[RJ]

I have been trying to follow this thread in email updates, but there are posts that I may have missed, so forgive me if I make some points that have already been discussed.

In my last post here I refered to the difference of doctrine between those who follow the predestination view and those that follow the Arminian free-will view.

I feel it good, however, to bring in a midway balanced view which, in my own theological stance, is perfectly harmonious.

Men (and, it should go without saying, women) are perfectly free to make their own decisions, choices, and actions. We were created in God's image, and part of that image is the ability to choose, to have free will.

Adam excercised this free will when he chose Eve before God and did what his wife wanted rather than what God wanted, even though Eve had carelessly allowed herself to be deceived by the serpent.

We too, act on our free will many times each day. We make choices.

I believe this continuing aspect of man's nature is well noted in Scripture.

Yet, the Eternal Salvation offered through the Blood of Christ cannot be received unless first God calls us. To use the Scripture that Joe Johnston brought into the discussion, we cannot receive Jesus unless He first knocks at the door. That is one primary reason for the Great Commission: a sinner cannot turn to Christ unless he is first told about Christ.

But who is the initiator here? It is God. Before I was born-again, I was condemned. I was an alien to the promises of Scripture. Scripture actually was firmly condemning of me, calling me "sold under sin" and a "God-hater". (Romans, I think 11-13)

Now, in my pre-regenerate state I hated God and was an alien from His promises, how could I then choose to follow Him? I would, and indeed for some time did, run far from Him. No, the only way I could come to love God, to be washed clean in the blood of Christ and be regenerated by the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost, would be if the Holy Spirit planted and watered that desire in my heart.

"We love Him because He first loved us."

Yet, the process of salvation does require action on our part. But it is God who calls, and ultimately He who chooses.

As to how God can condemn non-believers to torment when He has not chosen them, the issue is that it is dependent on who we give the glory to.

If I choose to sin, that is my choice. If I choose God, it is He who has chosen me first. Sinners cannot use the election issue to escape blame for their sins, as Paul is clear in Romans.

Yet if we are saved, we cannot and should not attempt to claim some glory for ourselves by saying that we chose to be saved.

In the end the issue is this: if we are saved, do we choose to give Glory to God. Or do we persist in some prideful belief that we were so wonderful as to choose God even when we were dead in sin.

Mark, with many blessings to all who have taken part in this thread.

(P.S. I have refered to Scripture, but haven't given references. I hope someone can bring the references, or I may in due course. Mostly I speak from Romans.)

I agree, no doubt that we love Him because he first Loved us,I have experienced that personally and still marvel at it.

It is God that initiates, He stands at the door and knocks. I look back and see where God has been 'knocking" on my door for many years.

But unlike me, my friend rojoloco believes that God also opens the door for you and I do not!
I cried out to God many times over my life but, it wasn't until I finally gave in and told him I couldn't do it own my own anymore, my sins were too much for me and "I" invited Him into my life and "I" put Him in charge, resting in His promise of forgiveness and salvation.

Rojoloco, wants to call this "I" as works and therefore "filthy rags".
I don't!
Jesus died on the cross, forgiving all, not just the elect! That's a given, God did this alone, it's a done deal!!

But what we do when Jesus initiates, when He "knocks" with this forgiveness in hand, is a matter of Choice!!!

 

[cman77]

Jesus died on the cross, forgiving all, not just the elect! That's a given, God did this alone, it's a done deal!!

Forgiving all? this would imply that all men are saved. we know that this is not true. please explain this

 

[rojoloco]

One last time I will respectfully ask you for a direct answer to a direct question, no beating around the bush, rojoloco:

Jesus said: " I stand at the door and knock, and Who ever opens the door , I will come in and sup with Him".

Since Jesus is God, who has to open the door here, God or you?
Just answer: God opens the door or you open the door, which is it?

Joe, you are attempting to back me into a corner without even bothering to understand what it is that I have said time and time again. How can true discussion come if one side is not even taking into account what the other side is saying. If you had bothered to read (and understand) what i wrote, you would already know my answer to this.

It is the man who opens the door but it is not the man who made it possible. No man will open the door because no man seeks God on his own. It is only AFTER God changes that person's nature through regeneration that he will see God for who He is. Upon this moment, this person is compelled to open the door. It is man who opens it from our finite perspective but it is God who initiated the act and carried it through to completion.

 

[Boanerges]

You are confusing day to day activities with salvation. Salvation is in an entirely different category

You have no scriptural support for that

 

[rojoloco]

But unlike me, my friend rojoloco believes that God also opens the door for you and I do not!
I cried out to God many times over my life but, it wasn't until I finally gave in and told him I couldn't do it own my own anymore, my sins were too much for me and "I" invited Him into my life and "I" put Him in charge, resting in His promise of forgiveness and salvation.

The thing you must realize is that it was God doing this through you. You were not regenerated because you believe. You believed because you were regenerated. God had already started His good work in you and was about to complete it. Your belief and submission was the result of salvation, not the other way around.

 

[Boanerges]

Just adding a few thoughts:
First I would like to say that I am confident this subject that has been debated on for many centuries will be settled in this thread. LOL!

Yet, the Eternal Salvation offered through the Blood of Christ cannot be received unless first God calls us.
True, He calls, He draws and He saves. Jesus called the all and the any that would respond and He was the perfect expression of the Father's will and heart.
Note the scriptures below and see the if any, all ye and any man that Jesus Christ Himself calls :
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.


To use the Scripture that Joe Johnston brought into the discussion, we cannot receive Jesus unless He first knocks at the door. That is one primary reason for the Great Commission: a sinner cannot turn to Christ unless he is first told about Christ. But who is the initiator here? It is God. Before I was born-again, I was condemned. I was an alien to the promises of Scripture. Scripture actually was firmly condemning of me, calling me "sold under sin" and a "God-hater". (Romans, I think 11-13) Now, in my pre-regenerate state I hated God and was an alien from His promises, how could I then choose to follow Him?
Plainly because He gave you the ability to choose, that is the power of God's grace and it is obvious that God gives the any man the power (grace) to open the door He knocks at. Jesus would not knock on the door if no one could open it as that would be both useless and foolish.

No, the only way I could come to love God, to be washed clean in the blood of Christ and be regenerated by the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost, would be if the Holy Spirit planted and watered that desire in my heart. "We love Him because He first loved us." Yet, the process of salvation does require action on our part.
True. When the called ones would not come He sent his servants into the highways and the byways to bring all who would come to the wedding feast.It is He that sends His church into all the world to proclaim that Word of Grace.
But it is God who calls, and ultimately He who chooses.
Yes He chooses (predestines) but always according to foreknowledge. He is not willing that any perish but the God who knows all certainly foreknows those who will reject His offer of love.

There that should have everyone agreeing- lol.
Just a little lightheartedness my friend. Thanks for the interesting reading, there are several good points to ponder.

 

[Boanerges]

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believe and thou shalt be saved not vice-verse.
No faith, no pleasing God, no receiving promises and how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The thing you must realize is that it was God doing this through you. You were not regenerated because you believe. You believed because you were regenerated. God had already started His good work in you and was about to complete it. Your belief and submission was the result of salvation, not the other way around.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


If one does not believe he does not receive Christ.
One is not born again until he has been washed in the blood of Christ.
There is no salvation before the application of the blood of Christ.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[rojoloco]

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believe and thou shalt be saved not vice-verse.
No faith, no pleasing God, no receiving promises and how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.



Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


If one does not believe he does not receive Christ.
One is not born again until he has been washed in the blood of Christ.
There is no salvation before the application of the blood of Christ.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In response to all of this, I am posting my sermon titled Three Simple Words. I address all of this in a clear and concise manner.

-----------

Three Simple Words - delivered 9/13/09

I want to start out tonight by asking a question. I’m just going to mention three simple words and I want you to put them in order for me. The words are:

1) Grace
2) Faith
3) Regeneration

Ask congregation to think about what each word means and the order they would place them in.

In my personal experience, most people place them in the order of grace, faith, and then regeneration. The reasoning is that God must first give us grace but then we choose whether to accept His gift before any regeneration can occur. This is a false doctrine that has infiltrated the Church.

But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace.

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Grace is completely God’s doing. It is His gift to us, as Christians. God is a gracious God.

But You, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness and truth.

He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved through faith by grace. Grace has to take place before any faith can.

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

God showered His grace upon us before the foundation of the world. Before anything ever was, He had a plan. Part of that plan was to call the vessels of mercy to Himself. Even while we were still enemies of God, He showed His love for us and lavished us with grace

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

The fact that grace comes first is not usually the part that confuses people. It is the proper order of faith and regeneration that gets sticky. As I have already stated, this is not the correct order at all.

God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.
Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

First of all, it is impossible for one to choose God. As I said in a sermon last deployment, before salvation, we serve the dominion of Satan.

to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God

We are at war with God and hate Him.

For everyone who does evil hates the Light

Nobody chooses the enemy. Even the most infamous traitors in American history were not serving the enemy. They may have been OUR enemy, but they were not THEIR enemy. Whether it was money, allegiance, or some other common bond, our enemy had become their ally. In the same way, nobody who chooses God is an enemy of God at the time. In order for one to choose God, a change must first occur. There must be a common bond. That common bond is the Holy Spirit.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

We see this verse speaking of the natural man. Another phrase used to identify this type of person is carnal man. The carnal man is a man of his own desires. He is a man at war with God. He is the unregenerate man bound by the chains of sin who still serves the dominion of Satan. Scripture tells us plainly that this man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Here we see a new kind of person being introduced. This is the regenerate man. This man has been set free of the chains of sin. He has turned his eyes to the Light (Acts 26:18). He has been renewed by the Holy Spirit.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

The Holy Spirit does not reside in the carnal man. The Holy Spirit resides in the regenerate man. Our bodies are the very dwelling place of the Holy Spirit; of God. Having the Holy Spirit is synonymous with being saved. It is utterly impossible for a man to be saved without the Holy Spirit. It is equally as impossible for a man’s body to be the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit if he has not been regenerated. As a result, there is no way faith can come before regeneration.

First, the grace of God is poured out to us. This occurred before the foundation of the world. Next, in God’s timing, we are washed anew and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. At this time, we become a new creature in Christ. We now possess the ability to understand the things of the Spirit because the Spirit resides within us. Lastly, faith occurs. It is only after grace and regeneration that one can truly have faith in God. Of course, this means the “choice” we made was not really our own but rather an irresistible calling of God Almighty as He had already changed our very nature and desires. I am thankful for this because if it were up to me and my own works (a choice is technically a work as it is something we are doing), I would be left with nothing but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) and a lack of Christ.

 

[Boanerges]

The Holy Spirit resides in the regenerate man

Exactly and one is not regenerated or born again until one believes.
That ability to believe is the faith God has given all men.
Otherwise I would have to believe that grace is of no effect on those who have not heard a preacher give the gospel.

I hope that Navy ship you are on is not as full of holes as that sermon- LOL

Hows it goin Rojo?

 

[rojoloco]

Exactly and one is not regenerated or born again until one believes.
That ability to believe is the faith God has given all men.
Otherwise I would have to believe that grace is of no effect on those who have not heard a preacher give the gospel.

I hope that Navy ship you are on is not as full of holes as that sermon- LOL

Hows it goin Rojo?

One cannot believe unless they are already regenerated (1 Corinthians 2:14). Faith is not the ability to believe. Faith is THE belief (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is not given to all so you are correct in saying there is no effect on some (Romans 9:23, John 17:19).

I want to repost a few quotes that I have given in other sermons of mine:

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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C03%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->The superficial work of many of the professional evangelists of the last fifty years is largely responsible for the erroneous views now current upon the bondage of the natural man, encouraged by the laziness of those in the pew in their failure to “prove all things”.

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C04%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Since not all men will be saved as the result of Christ’s redeeming work, a limitation must be admitted. Either the atonement was limited in that it was designed to secure salvation for certain sinners, but not for others, or it was limited in that it was not intended to secure salvation for any, but was designed on to make it possible for God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe. In other words, one must limit its design either in extent (it was not intended for all) or in effectiveness (it did not secure the salvation for any).

What it really boils down to is where one chooses to place the limitation. Scripture is very clear that the limitation is not placed in the effectiveness. Scripture is also clear that Christ does not merely make a way for men to save themselves but actually does the saving.

 

[RJ]

Joe, you are attempting to back me into a corner without even bothering to understand what it is that I have said time and time again. How can true discussion come if one side is not even taking into account what the other side is saying. If you had bothered to read (and understand) what i wrote, you would already know my answer to this.

It is the man who opens the door but it is not the man who made it possible. No man will open the door because no man seeks God on his own. It is only AFTER God changes that person's nature through regeneration that he will see God for who He is. Upon this moment, this person is compelled to open the door. It is man who opens it from our finite perspective but it is God who initiated the act and carried it through to completion.

So God truly opens the door , right?

 

[RJ]

Joe, you are attempting to back me into a corner without even bothering to understand what it is that I have said time and time again. How can true discussion come if one side is not even taking into account what the other side is saying. If you had bothered to read (and understand) what i wrote, you would already know my answer to this.

It is the man who opens the door but it is not the man who made it possible. No man will open the door because no man seeks God on his own. It is only AFTER God changes that person's nature through regeneration that he will see God for who He is. Upon this moment, this person is compelled to open the door. It is man who opens it from our finite perspective but it is God who initiated the act and carried it through to completion.

Yes Loco, I have read and that is the problem, you are wrong and you preach the false doctrine. I have a very uneasy feeling when I think about all you have said and think about you preaching this to others, especially to those who are searching the truth.

I reluctantly say that you are very confused, I feel a sadness inside for others who have heard your sermon and may have been swayed by it!
For me and I only speak for my self, it is YOU who needs to pay attention!

In all the threads , I have not seen one other person agree with YOUR theolgy of no choice, in fact, they have ALL disagreed.

You have repeatedly refused to answer direct questions with a direct answer. You say that I am trying to paint you in a corner, You betcha!!!
Paint me in a corner, PLEASE!!!!
Yes man has a choice.
Yes, man opens the door.

Please, try one more question: Not only me but WHY has no one else agreed with you theology?

 

[RJ]

Forgiving all? this would imply that all men are saved. we know that this is not true. please explain this

No, all men are forgiven but all are not saved!
Please look at the below scriptures:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.

Ephesians 2:8-9
. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

God, through Christ, died on the cross for our sins and was reconcilling the world (all) unto himself. Reconcilling, forgiving.
We are forgiven from the cross but not saved.

God's grace that saves includes not only the cross (death) but the burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are forgiven at the cross and you are saved by the resurrected life of Jesus Christ.
The cross, death, can not give life, only life can give life!

That's why St. Paul said that a man who doesn't believe in and has not recieved the resurrected life, is to be pitied above all men!


The cross provides for forgivenss but the resurrection is what gives life and eternal salvation!

 

[Boanerges]

One cannot believe unless they are already regenerated (1 Corinthians 2:14). Faith is not the ability to believe. Faith is THE belief (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is not given to all so you are correct in saying there is no effect on some (Romans 9:23, John 17:19).

My friend Adam (man) was made for His glory. One cannot be born again unless one believes.
There is no scriptural support for any other view.

Here is a great example of Christianity 101 :

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

They folks here believed, then were baptized and only later did they receive the Holy Ghost.
This is the order in which converts to Christ received the Holy Spirit, belief in Christ and His sacrificial substitution then and only after the blood is applied can one be born again. Then that one can receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the order God gives us in His Word. Without the blood of Christ no man can come near to the Father without being judged and the wages of sin is death.

 

[Boanerges]

No, all men are forgiven but all are not saved!
Please look at the below scriptures:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.

Ephesians 2:8-9
. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

God, through Christ, died on the cross for our sins and was reconcilling the world (all) unto himself. Reconcilling, forgiving.
We are forgiven from the cross but not saved.

God's grace that saves includes not only the cross (death) but the burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are forgiven at the cross and you are saved by the resurrected life of Jesus Christ.
The cross, death, can not give life, only life can give life!

That's why St. Paul said that a man who doesn't believe in and has not recieved the resurrected life, is to be pitied above all men!


The cross provides for forgivenss but the resurrection is what gives life and eternal salvation!

You are 100% right Joe. The Oil is never applied where the Blood has not been. No blood sacrifice no Holy Spirit resurrection (new birth).