Actually, there have been a few people on here who have agreed with what I am saying. Cman is one of those people. You want to know why most people on here disagree with what I am saying? It is because the majority of America is Arminian in nature whether they want to admit it or not. Are you aware that in the 1500's, what I am teaching was the norm and what you are teaching was actually condemned as heresy? Oh, how time changes so many things. Logic has already backed you into a corner, dug a grace, thrown you in, and buried you up to your neck. It is your Arminian roots which are keeping you there. You have time and time again refused to acknowledge the verses I have given and instead only post the same few verses with extra thought processes not intended by the author. If one does not have a proper understanding of the doctrine of grace, everything else will crumble.
What does the Bible teach about election?
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Actually, there have been a few people on here who have agreed with what I am saying. Cman is one of those people. You want to know why most people on here disagree with what I am saying? It is because the majority of America is Arminian in nature whether they want to admit it or not. Are you aware that in the 1500's, what I am teaching was the norm and what you are teaching was actually condemned as heresy? Oh, how time changes so many things. Logic has already backed you into a corner, dug a grace, thrown you in, and buried you up to your neck. It is your Arminian roots which are keeping you there. You have time and time again refused to acknowledge the verses I have given and instead only post the same few verses with extra thought processes not intended by the author. If one does not have a proper understanding of the doctrine of grace, everything else will crumble.
This makes no logical sense nor does it make any Biblical sense. If one is already forgiven, what are they being condemned for? For one to be forgiven means God is condemning an innocent man who has already been justified. Forgiveness is synonymous with justification. If one is forgiven, there is no need for punishment. If there is no need for punishment, there will be no Hell.
Your use of Acts chapter 8 is classic of those who believe in subsequence. The claim is that people are saved and THEN they are baptized into the Spirit at a later point. The problem is that this view contradicts 1 Corinthians 12:13.
1 Corinthians 12:13 said:
We became a part of the bod of Christ b the Holy Spirit. One cannot be a part of the body of Christ unless they are regenerated by the Spirit into the body. Acts can hardly be used to confirm subsequence as that entire book refers to a transitional time of the apostolic era. If you will also notice, there was a purpose in the delayed reception of the Spirit in this instance. It was so that the apostles could witness firsthand their bitter rivals, the Samaritans, receiving the Holy Spirit. It was to ensure unity and to ensure the rivalry would end and that they could all be counted as brothers in Christ. Subsequence just is not a Biblical doctrine outside a few cases during the transitional period of Acts and you will find it nowhere else in Scripture.
No guilt equals no blood necessary. Your doctrine has effectively rendered the death of Christ useless as God apparently already forgave everybody and will not hold them accountable. Who needs an Advocate when all is already forgiven without one? Who can be held liable when the are already pardoned? You belief renders the death of Christ useless and only barely clings to the resurrection so as not to become total apostasy. Hate to break it to you but it already has by demeaning the death.
Joe, I also wanted to comment on your misuse of the word "world" in 1 Corinthians 5:19. As I said to Larry, to claim this to be speaking of mankind without exception is to render the death of Christ useless, obsolete, null, void, wasteful, etc. The world is mankind without distiction. It means the world; Jew & Gentile. It does not mean every Jew and Gentile. There are multiple meanings of "world" just as there are multiple meanings of "heavens" in Scripture. The heavens can be the sky, outer space, or Heaven. The world can be the Earth, all of creation in general, or even synonymous with the flesh in a fallen sense.
Boanerges
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I have to say that is your most bizarre statement yet and that is saying a lot Rojo.
All are guilty before God and only the blood of Christ can cleanse them.
Anything else is a departure from both scripture and Christianity itself.
If this discussion is to exit Christianity then I will also exit it also.
Have a blessed day,
your friend Larry.
Hey, you claimed with whether you meant to or not. That is the problem with faulty doctrine. It has too many loose ends for a person to keep up with. You claim all are forgiven but then you claim all are guilty. You say the blood of Christ is the only thing that can cleanse. These do not go hand in hand. By your own statement, you must concede to one of these points:
1) All are forgiven and the blood of Christ is meaningless
2) The blood of Christ cleanses all, all are forgiven, and nobody will go to Hell
3) The blood of Christ cleanses all but it is ineffective in saving those whom it cleanses if these same people will not be saved
4) People do not need the blood of Christ because God already forgave them
5) There is a limited atonement to perfectly cleanse only those whom God elected unconditionally before the foundation of the world and that all whom God calls will be saved despite having zero capacity within themselves to do good or seek after God.
I'll go with option #5 as did every one of the Reformers. Your belief is relatively new, was condemned as heresy by the Reformers, and flies in the face of Scripture left and right.
I ascribe all glory to God whereas you reserve the right to boast as if you did something of your own. I ascribe salvation to God alone whereas your doctrine ascribes it to some form of merit. Yet somehow, it is I that you claim is putting wretched ideas in the minds of others.
Boanerges
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Seriously Rojo, you are really confused.
But for you to claim regeneration (the born again Experience) to be independent of the blood is outside the bounds of Christianity.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I'll take #6 because this is what the bible teaches
6.Jesus shed His blood and died for all but all will not come as He gives them the choice. It is the Calvinistic confusion that causes you to make those assumption from what I said when it is so plainly not that at all.
Calvin was a nice man a bit of a savant, but his doctrine (like all men) contains error. His is compounded by the apparent deification of that doctrine so his error is multiplied a million or so times.
Greatness4life
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Well, Having taken time to read through all the post here; I felt within me to make a little contribution and correction to where I felt it dues.
First of all, I do agree with everything that my dear brother loco was trying to communicate to us depending on the side he was coming from and the way we see it. But one thing I felt he should have used instead of regenerated should be CONVICTION in which the order will be place like this: Grace, Conviction and Faith.
When Grace come to your door and knock the next thing that follows is CONVICTION from the Holy Spirit then Faith is release.
Everyone that ever came to the Lord in sincerity of heart has those evidences in them.
I think the vocabulary and language communication can be a little confusing in trying to past the message across to readers.
Also, the people that said Man has a choice in believing the report that God gave or spoken concerning Himself are also right (very correct) because, what God is after in man is that ''BELIEVE''.. the working out of it comes from Him alone. But that doesn't imply that, we must be lazy, wicked and slothful people just like that servant that his Lord gave a talent to, instead of trading with it, he neglected that which was given to him and the end result wasn't that palatable .
The whole points are these: God has a WILL and COUNSEL and He will by no means lower His standard for anyone whether we know it or not, we agree with it or not; all things are working according to the foreknowledge of Him. What He expected of us as a people is obedient though we may not understand how it will work, we may not see things as He sees it, in fact we may be confused by them all but, all things are working according to His purpose and that Purpose is to bring all things under Christ.
Both party has a point but the major factor of all this is that; whatever God want to do, He want His creations especially we human to participate in it. He is not a rigid nor selfish God as some people have referred Him to be, neither is He a God that control human being against their will as if they are Robot..
Above all, He love His IMAGE and Likeness. He want to share His glory with us, not everyone will be willing to accept this, in fact, make salvation so cheap as the air we breath, some will still be harden because they have chosen their path from the beginning.
The whole point of all our discussion lies into two dimensions: God has a WILL, We human also has a WILL.. God want His Will to be DONE in us we also want our WILL to be DONE but there is only one WILL that will overcome all other wills and that WILL is the Lord's WILL.
Its either we willing submit our will to Him and enjoy the glory that follows or We refuse it and receive our DAMNATION.
It is either you fall on this ROCK and be broken or this Rock falls on you and grind you into powder.
Those are the end result of the two dimensions which at last will come to ONE Dimension which is: ''Your Will be Done and Your Kingdom Come!!
Sacrifices and offering Thou required not, my hear hast Thou opened; in the Volume of Your book it is written of me; Lo, I come to do thy Will oh Lord!
May the Lord give us understanding in Jesus Name. Amen
First of all, I do agree with everything that my dear brother loco was trying to communicate to us depending on the side he was coming from and the way we see it. But one thing I felt he should have used instead of regenerated should be CONVICTION in which the order will be place like this: Grace, Conviction and Faith.
When Grace come to your door and knock the next thing that follows is CONVICTION from the Holy Spirit then Faith is release.
Everyone that ever came to the Lord in sincerity of heart has those evidences in them.
I think the vocabulary and language communication can be a little confusing in trying to past the message across to readers.
Also, the people that said Man has a choice in believing the report that God gave or spoken concerning Himself are also right (very correct) because, what God is after in man is that ''BELIEVE''.. the working out of it comes from Him alone. But that doesn't imply that, we must be lazy, wicked and slothful people just like that servant that his Lord gave a talent to, instead of trading with it, he neglected that which was given to him and the end result wasn't that palatable .
The whole points are these: God has a WILL and COUNSEL and He will by no means lower His standard for anyone whether we know it or not, we agree with it or not; all things are working according to the foreknowledge of Him. What He expected of us as a people is obedient though we may not understand how it will work, we may not see things as He sees it, in fact we may be confused by them all but, all things are working according to His purpose and that Purpose is to bring all things under Christ.
Both party has a point but the major factor of all this is that; whatever God want to do, He want His creations especially we human to participate in it. He is not a rigid nor selfish God as some people have referred Him to be, neither is He a God that control human being against their will as if they are Robot..
Above all, He love His IMAGE and Likeness. He want to share His glory with us, not everyone will be willing to accept this, in fact, make salvation so cheap as the air we breath, some will still be harden because they have chosen their path from the beginning.
The whole point of all our discussion lies into two dimensions: God has a WILL, We human also has a WILL.. God want His Will to be DONE in us we also want our WILL to be DONE but there is only one WILL that will overcome all other wills and that WILL is the Lord's WILL.
Its either we willing submit our will to Him and enjoy the glory that follows or We refuse it and receive our DAMNATION.
It is either you fall on this ROCK and be broken or this Rock falls on you and grind you into powder.
Those are the end result of the two dimensions which at last will come to ONE Dimension which is: ''Your Will be Done and Your Kingdom Come!!
Sacrifices and offering Thou required not, my hear hast Thou opened; in the Volume of Your book it is written of me; Lo, I come to do thy Will oh Lord!
May the Lord give us understanding in Jesus Name. Amen
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Either you are very confused as to what it is I am saying or you purposely posted an attempt to misguide others when reading what I wrote. If you read again, you will see nowhere where I claim regeneration to be independent of the blood. In fact, I feel they are intertwined. I said if one is to take your approach, that would have to be one of the 5 options I gave to make your doctrine fit. You diminish the blood by making it be in vain countless times over. I see the blood as being a Limited Atonement. Like it or not, we are both limiting the atonement. I limit it in recipients but call it fully effective whereas you limit it in effectiveness but say it is for all.
Boanerges
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Grace cannot operate without faith and must operate through faith which is belief
Maybe it's me Rojo, but your meaning gets lost in your circular logic.
Regeneration before belief means no application of the blood unless you are saying all are saved since Jesus Christ died and shed His blood for the sins of the whole world.
Are you a Universalist? LOL.
Either way this tread seems to be becoming a repetition so I am moving on to other things.
Much love and and many blessings.
CYA around,
your friend Larry.
RJ
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My , my , my, I have never seen someone distort the word of God like you do.
Condenmation is for the unsaved!
Condemnation is for the unrighteous!
Condemnation is not for those who God call blameless!
THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST.
Romans 8:1
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP>a</SUP>
- You are forgiven at the cross.
- You are saved by the resurrected life of Jesus Christ but only if you are in Jesus Christ and He in you.
- And if you are saved, then there is no condemnation.
RJ
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Originally Posted by rojoloco 
One cannot believe unless they are already regenerated (1 Corinthians 2:14). Faith is not the ability to believe. Faith is THE belief (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is not given to all so you are correct in saying there is no effect on some (Romans 9:23, John 17:19).
For the sakes of others who read your theology or interpretation:
One cannot believe unless they are already regenerated (1 Corinthians 2:14). Faith is not the ability to believe. Faith is THE belief (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is not given to all so you are correct in saying there is no effect on some (Romans 9:23, John 17:19).
For the sakes of others who read your theology or interpretation:
- NO , no, no, only the spirit of God can only regenerate you if you beleive first. If you do not do something like Romans 10:8-13, then you can not recieved the Holy Spirit. This grace, this regeneration, this renewing of the mind, is for EVERYONE but only realized in those who believe first.
- Believe, recieve, regenerate!
- GOD saved you by His grace when you believed!
RJ
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That's 2 Corinthians 5:19 my friend not 1 Corinthians!
to claim this to be speaking of mankind without exception is to render the death of Christ useless, obsolete, null, void, wasteful, etc. The
You continue to distort. How in God's name can what you said above make any since.
Christ died for ALL!
I will tell you something else, Since the issuing of the New Covenant, all men are born forgiven!!!
All is used many times througout scriptures, please distort the below verse and tell me that ALL does not mean everyone!
ROMANS 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL men, for that ALL have sinned:
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.
I believe the blood of Christ is effectively applied to the Elect only. The Holy Spirit regenerates us which gives us a new nature in Christ. Only then does this new nature compel us to chase after God as we are bound to the desires of our nature. The blood of Christ is effectively applied to those whom God calls but He only calls His Elect. Many are called outwardly by fishers of men but only the Elect are called inwardly by the Spirit. The outward call of man is often rejected by men who have not had a change of nature but those who have been regenerated comply irresistibly because their new nature screams for God. The blood of Christ is indeed fully effective for those whom is was intended for and does not fail.
Very simple.
Romans 5:8 said:
Christ died for us. He died for fellow believers. He died for His Elect. This was set in place before the foundation of the world before we even existed. While we were still lost in sin, God sent His Son to die for His Elect as an act of love for the vessels fitted unto mercy out of the lump of clay.
Condemnation is indeed for the unrighteous because the unrighteous do not have an Advocate. They are seen as guilty and have not been washed by the blood of Christ. Because of they have no Advocate, they are seen as being guilt instead of justified. There is no condemnation for the Elect but all else will perish in their iniquity and guilt.
Originally Posted by rojoloco
One cannot believe unless they are already regenerated (1 Corinthians 2:14). Faith is not the ability to believe. Faith is THE belief (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is not given to all so you are correct in saying there is no effect on some (Romans 9:23, John 17:19).
For the sakes of others who read your theology or interpretation:
- NO , no, no, only the spirit of God can only regenerate you if you beleive first. If you do not do something like Romans 10:8-13, then you can not recieved the Holy Spirit. This grace, this regeneration, this renewing of the mind, is for EVERYONE but only realized in those who believe first.
- Believe, recieve, regenerate!
- GOD saved you by His grace when you believed!
I thank God I do not limit Him in this way for by doing this, I place myself above Him and consider Him to be at my bidding. Instead of my actions being necessitated by Him, your doctrine places His actions as being necessitated by you. God is not at my mercy. I am at His. Scripture tells me it is impossible for me to seek God and that I am a totally depraved individual and I believe it. I thank Him every day for choosing me when it was impossible for me to choose Him. I have nothing to boast of as if I did something to acquire salvation. I took no part in it for no part of me can contribute to salvation. It is from God alone and I will never limit him or say He can't do something lest I allow Him to.
RJ
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Thank You, your distortion is complete now!
RJ
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I am through with you cazy red.
Your confused, you have mixed up and distorted works with belief.
I pray that God enlightens you some how.
I also hope and pray that your distortion is not the cause for someones bondage.
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