What does the Bible teach about election?

[rojoloco]

Boanerges, it looks like our biggest problem here is our definition of grace and where we place it. I place grace as being the thing that saves. You obviously do not. It appears you place grace as the means to salvation. I believe in grace that does not require human interaction. You believe in grace that does. I believe God shows His grace to us and as a result, we are regenerated and saved. You believe He shows His grace but that the grace does not save anybody. The doctrine of grace is the root cause of our disagreement. I place it all on grace and you place very little on grace. To me, grace is the beginning and the end. For you, grace is only the beginning. For me, salvation is all God's doing and my works have zero effect on it. To you, man's works are equally as important as grace in obtaining salvation. Perhaps we should speak on the doctrines of grace before moving on to any side notes.

 

[rojoloco]

I want to give some Scripture that completely (IMO) squashes the idea of God's foreknowledge being conditional and dependent on the choice of man.

First of all, you are claiming the above. You claim that God did choose but He only chose based on His foreknowledge of what man would do under their own free will. You do not deny God's election because of:

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

However, you take the idea of God's foreknowledge being dependent on the choice of man from this verse you posted earlier:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

This is the area I wish to address.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

At first glance, this almost seems to back up your stance. Again, this can only be done when leaving a passage to interpret itself. When we introduce other passages, you will see this is not the case.

We see it telling us that those whom God foreknew would be predestined. You take this to mean that God foreknew a choice that man would make in his own free will. Scripture says it to be something very different.

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

It is obvious that Adam knew Eve. She was his wife. This is not what the word is implying. It is implying a special kind of relationship. He knew her intimately. The way he knew her was not the same way he would know Cain or Abel. It was not mere knowledge but an intimate knowledge through relations.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

If you are going to take the foreknowledge of God in Romans to mean that it is referring to general knowledge, are you of the stance that He does not have general knowledge of some as well? Are we going to conclude that God is ignorant of some and that His omniscience is a lie? I would hope not. I would much rather see you come to a place of truth where we conclude that the knowledge being spoken of is outside general knowledge and is along the lines of intimate knowledge through a relationship with Him.

Now that we have established this, we can move into our other area. As of right now, even if you concede that the foreknowledge is speaking of an intimate knowledge (as Adam knew Eve), you could still claim that He only had that intimate foreknowledge of those who would choose Him of their own free will. You can still claim that He had a general knowledge of all but only a personal knowledge of the ones who would come to love Him on their own. This is where I will supply the rest of Scripture which condemns this theory.

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy......So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires

We clearly see that mercy is up to God. He shows mercy to whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires. No interaction necessary for this. It is according to His will.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Our rebirthing in Christ is based on the mercy is God alone and is not dependent upon the will or choice of man.

And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

People who are saved are only saved because God showed mercy on them and called them unto Himself. These people did not hear the call and then choose God instead of choosing to reject Him. This goes against John 1:13 where we are told it is not by the will of man but of God. God wills salvation unto people and they receive it irresistibly. Nobody seeks after God. Nobody asks for God. Nevertheless, in His timing, He calls people to Himself and makes Himself manifest to them in the form of salvation and the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

What do we have here? It does not say he predestined based on his general (or even intimate) foreknowledge of who would "choose" Him but rather, based on His will. It is in His will that determines who will be saved; who will be shown mercy through grace to be rebirthed into faith.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Again, it is not by our own doing but by God's. It is not by our own choice (works) but by the irresistible calling of God. We see called according to His purpose. Looking back in Romans 8:30, we see those whom are called are also justified, glorified, and foreknown intimately as God's Elect.

God Elected some out of His own mercy and not based on anything we would choose to do. His foreknowledge was not of a choice of free will but of an intimate knowledge that He shares with His Elect that He chose according to His will. He has a general knowledge of all but only an intimate knowledge with His Elect. Rebirthing is not based on the will of man but of God alone through His grace. His grace is not merely something that enables salvation (as it is not through the will of man) but is actually the root cause of salvation. Grace is the cause, salvation is the necessary effect.

 

[Boanerges]

Boanerges, it looks like our biggest problem here is our definition of grace and where we place it. I place grace as being the thing that saves. You obviously do not. It appears you place grace as the means to salvation. I believe in grace that does not require human interaction. You believe in grace that does. I believe God shows His grace to us and as a result, we are regenerated and saved. You believe He shows His grace but that the grace does not save anybody. The doctrine of grace is the root cause of our disagreement. I place it all on grace and you place very little on grace. To me, grace is the beginning and the end. For you, grace is only the beginning. For me, salvation is all God's doing and my works have zero effect on it. To you, man's works are equally as important as grace in obtaining salvation. Perhaps we should speak on the doctrines of grace before moving on to any side notes.

Their ya go putting words in my mouth again, Lol. I am a grace man to the bone but only the scriptural way (by faith).
The bible says that we are saved by grave through faith. God gives every man a measure of faith.
God is after our hearts, those who come out of love and not looking for mindless robots.

 

[RJ]

All election is according to foreknowledge. That foreknowledge is of our choice.Would we have loves sacrifice or continue to be our own lords?
Choose you this day whom you would serve my friends.

Say what you may about election or predistination, but do not ignore the freedom of "Choice" that God has given man from the begining; It started with Adam and it ends with Jesus. Either you choose to follow God's path or you don't.

Now, God lays His free gift of Grace on the table of your life. No one choose for you, certainly not the giver! It is YOUR CHOICE, you either take the gift off of the table or you don't!!!!

What kind of God would we have if He made the choice for you?
We would be nothing more that puppets on a string and this would be negative. There is no room for negative in my God!

 

[rojoloco]

Say what you may about election or predistination, but do not ignore the freedom of "Choice" that God has given man from the begining; It started with Adam and it ends with Jesus. Either you choose to follow God's path or you don't.

Now, God lays His free gift of Grace on the table of your life. No one choose for you, certainly not the giver! It is YOUR CHOICE, you either take the gift off of the table or you don't!!!!

What kind of God would we have if He made the choice for you?
We would be nothing more that puppets on a string and this would be negative. There is no room for negative in my God!

The view of God giving us a choice really makes us greater than God. It is a belief that teaches how God is here for us so long as we ask for Him instead of the Truth that we are all here for God regardless of our cooperation. Romans 9 leaves no room for choice nor do any of the other verses I posted. In fact, they squash and theory of choice and free will and show the sovereignty of God for what it is.

 

[Boanerges]

How men dive into their deep ponderings without the slightest thought to the simple yet powerful word if.
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
It is imperative to remember that the church is the wild olive branch grafted into Israel and not vice-verse.

if and then

I want to give some Scripture that completely (IMO) squashes the idea of God's foreknowledge being conditional and dependent on the choice of man.

First of all, you are claiming the above. You claim that God did choose but He only chose based on His foreknowledge of what man would do under their own free will. You do not deny God's election because of:

Yes He does say that.

However, you take the idea of God's foreknowledge being dependent on the choice of man from this verse you posted earlier:
It was man's choice to sin in the garden that started this whole thing.
God's will was "thou shalt not" but Adam's choice sadly for all of us was "yes I will".


This is the area I wish to address.



At first glance, this almost seems to back up your stance. Again, this can only be done when leaving a passage to interpret itself. When we introduce other passages, you will see this is not the case.
I completely disagree with your opinion on that.
It would be a real mistake to interpet Romans 8:29 without the preceeding verse 8:28 (although I can see you needing to do that do propagate your opinion),
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
These verses plainly indicate foreknowledge not "regular" or general knowledge.


We see it telling us that those whom God foreknew would be predestined. You take this to mean that God foreknew a choice that man would make in his own free will. Scripture says it to be something very different.
That is your opinion my friend. Biblically God offers life or death, blessing or cursing. Since He indeed offers choices it is only natural that He would give man the ability. In fact your whole life is the sum of your choices.


It is obvious that Adam knew Eve. She was his wife. This is not what the word is implying. It is implying a special kind of relationship. He knew her intimately. The way he knew her was not the same way he would know Cain or Abel. It was not mere knowledge but an intimate knowledge through relations.

Oh yes he knew her all right and the result of that "knowing" was a son named Cain. That verse demonstratively talks about sexual union between Adam and Eve as it presents not only the thought of the action but the fruit of it.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

If you are going to take the foreknowledge of God in Romans to mean that it is referring to general knowledge, are you of the stance that He does not have general knowledge of some as well?
My God is not limited and there is nothing beyond His wisdom and knowledge but that which He chooses to forget.
Are we going to conclude that God is ignorant of some and that His omniscience is a lie? I would hope not.
Yet your "theology" leaves Him wise to some (foreknowing) and ignorant of others. My view is simple and biblical, there is no thing He does not know, no place anyone could hide to escape Him and He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He simply always is and time has no constraint on Him therefore foreknowledge is quite plain to Him.
I would much rather see you come to a place of truth where we conclude that the knowledge being spoken of is outside general knowledge and is along the lines of intimate knowledge through a relationship with Him.
That is your view my friend and I am afraid you limit God entirely to much.
Now that we have established this,
(I am sure that is established somewhere between your ears- LOL.)
we can move into our other area. As of right now, even if you concede that the foreknowledge is speaking of an intimate knowledge (as Adam knew Eve),
I do not concede that for it is entirely un-scriptural.
you could still claim that He only had that intimate foreknowledge of those who would choose Him of their own free will. You can still claim that He had a general knowledge of all but only a personal knowledge of the ones who would come to love Him on their own.
Where do you get this stuff? It is your view that He foreknows only some. He knows the hairs on the head and every heartbeat of every man. He foreknows everything and everyone.
This is where I will supply the rest of Scripture which condemns this theory.



We clearly see that mercy is up to God. He shows mercy to whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires. No interaction necessary for this. It is according to His will.
Yes mercy is up to God that is why His Son died for the sins of all men and offered a gift to all who would come. His invitation went beyond the dinner guests and was extended to the highways and the byways.


Our rebirthing in Christ is based on the mercy is God alone and is not dependent upon the will or choice of man.
I appreciate that this is your opinion. He gives power to become the sons of God but forces no one.


People who are saved are only saved because God showed mercy on them and called them unto Himself.
Absolutely. An the ones who are not saved have rejected His gift of love.
These people did not hear the call and then choose God instead of choosing to reject Him. This goes against John 1:13 where we are told it is not by the will of man but of God.
This is the will of God:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To understand this you would have to come to a knowledge of the perfect will of God (thou shalt not eat of the fruit) and the permissive will of God (Adam's choice).
God wills salvation unto people and they receive it irresistibly.
God obviously has different thoughts on that and speaks directly of those who refuse the gift of salvation treating it as refuse:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Nobody seeks after God. Nobody asks for God. Nevertheless, in His timing, He calls people to Himself and makes Himself manifest to them in the form of salvation and the receipt of the Holy Spirit.
You must have missed these verses (red emphasis mine):

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

God sends us into the highways and byways my friend.

What do we have here? It does not say he predestined based on his general (or even intimate) foreknowledge of who would "choose" Him but rather, based on His will. It is in His will that determines who will be saved; who will be shown mercy through grace to be rebirthed into faith.
He will all be saved. All in the Greek or Hebrew means all no matter how you dance around it.


Again, it is not by our own doing but by God's. It is not by our own choice (works) but by the irresistible calling of God. We see called according to His purpose. Looking back in Romans 8:30, we see those whom are called are also justified, glorified, and foreknown intimately as God's Elect.
But only after being foreknown (their hearts and choices) in verse 28.

God Elected some out of His own mercy and not based on anything we would choose to do. His foreknowledge was not of a choice of free will but of an intimate knowledge that He shares with His Elect that He chose according to His will. He has a general knowledge of all but only an intimate knowledge with His Elect. Rebirthing is not based on the will of man but of God alone through His grace. His grace is not merely something that enables salvation (as it is not through the will of man) but is actually the root cause of salvation. Grace is the cause, salvation is the necessary effect.

I hope my comments helped you to see that man is not a robot. God is love. Love created man to fellowship with Himself. He would not be happy with an automaton but Love is pleased when others share it's heart out of choice.
The very fact that we can save souls by leading them into the truth and out of bondage indicates that they could either:
1 Choose to stay in sin
2. choose to repent and turn to the Master.
Again, I hope this helped you.
Many blessings my friend,
your brother Larry.

 

[rojoloco]

Their ya go putting words in my mouth again, Lol. I am a grace man to the bone but only the scriptural way (by faith).
The bible says that we are saved by grave through faith. God gives every man a measure of faith.
God is after our hearts, those who come out of love and not looking for mindless robots.

You are mixing up saving faith with general faith as well as saving grace with common grace. Scripture tells us that there is common grace. This is depicted in the way the sun shines on both the righteous and the unrighteous, etc. This grace is not what saves. In the same way, general faith is simply a belief in something. This does not save either. However, when God shows His saving grace to us, saving faith follows out of necessity and never fails. The verses I posted above all condemn an action on our part. They are black and white with no gray areas. The only option is to concede the point and realize how it all goes together or keep living a contradiction with the excuse that there must be a way to link them even if it can't be found contradictory free.

 

[rojoloco]

Also, you keep mentioning this "measure of faith" bit. Did you realize it has nothing to do with salvation? Paul is referring to the spiritual gifts of believers. He is telling them that He has given each believer a measure of grace. He has bestowed upon each believer gifts as He sees fit. The believer is then to exercise these gifts but is not to think highly of himself for it because it was given to him by God. Everybody has a different role in the gifts but all are equally as important and all are given by God to believers. Again, it has nothing to do salvation.

 

[Boanerges]

You are mixing up saving faith with general faith as well as saving grace with common grace.

God gives everyman a measure of faith. Are you saying God gives inferior gifts?

 

[RJ]

Boanerges, it looks like our biggest problem here is our definition of grace and where we place it. I place grace as being the thing that saves. You obviously do not. It appears you place grace as the means to salvation. I believe in grace that does not require human interaction. You believe in grace that does. I believe God shows His grace to us and as a result, we are regenerated and saved. You believe He shows His grace but that the grace does not save anybody. The doctrine of grace is the root cause of our disagreement. I place it all on grace and you place very little on grace. To me, grace is the beginning and the end. For you, grace is only the beginning. For me, salvation is all God's doing and my works have zero effect on it. To you, man's works are equally as important as grace in obtaining salvation. Perhaps we should speak on the doctrines of grace before moving on to any side notes.

I say this with all love and respect but, there you go again, "crazy red", you have grace and works and everything else all mixed up.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

I won't even address what you say to Boanerges about "works" because I agree with him, your just putting words in his mouth that were not there.

But, I will address grace. It is too important and I fear someone searching truth here at TJ might be falsely swayed by your comments.

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"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of your own doing, it is a gift of God--" EPH 2:8 RSV

God's grace ,as defined by man, takes own many forms: His unconditional love and compassion to name a couple but, in the above verse from Ephisians, it means something more specific.
This is the grace that saves specifically, and it is the gospel that St. Paul said that he preached and said it was the gospel that saves.

So which is it, grace that saves or the gospel that saves, since they both come from God then they are the same.

St. Paul refered to the gospel as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and nothing more, not baptism, not speaking in toungues and not 1 John 1:9.


The death, the cross was God forgiving man for his inherited sinful nature. He told us that Jesus death was for the forgiveness of sins, reconciling all man unto Himself, never to look upoun man's sin again. My friend, though born sinful, we were all born reconciled or forgiven unto God. That is the finality of the cross , our forgiveness but, not the completion of the gospel or your salvation. In Christ you do not find forgiveness, in Christ you are forgiven!


The burial . God tells us that this gospel is part of His final convenant with man and calls it a will. And, with a will, their are heirs and before the will can be in force it requires the death of the one who the contract is drawn up on. In this case we are the heirs and the death is God himself in the form of the incarnate Jesus.
God fortold this over 750 years before it happened through the prophet Jerimiah when He said that He would give new a covenant and that He would put His law in us and write it upon our hearts.


The very millesecond that Jesus died, the Bible tells us that the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom. What is the significance of this? There is three that are most important:

1. This was the curtain that seperated man from the "Holy of Hollies" in the Temple. This is where God resided and only for the High Priest to witness. Once torn, it signified that ever man could look in to no avail, because God was gone.
2. The curtain measured 90 ft tall, the tearing from top to bottom signified that only God could have done this.
3. And finally, the tearing of the curtain and God's abscents is the ushering in of the new covenant and be fnalized by the resurrected life Jesus Christ himself.

The burial is the proof of the death and the putting into action your inheritence.



The resurrection. This is perhaps the most important part of the Gospel that Paul preached, for with out it, he says the cross is meaningless and we are to be pitied above all men. Jesus said (paraphrasing): " I am the vine and you are the branches, if you are in me , and I in you, you will bare much fruit, with out me you can do nothing." This is not possible with out the resurrected life of Jesus Christ. By inviting Christ into you, into your heart , seals the fnal covenant where God will put Himself into the hearts and minds of men. And a most blessed caveat, God said He will never leave.


So, the gospel that St. Paul preached: the cross that takes care of our sin problem through unconditional forgiveness, the burial that confirms the death and the resurrected life of Jesus Christ that, through the conscious recieving of, confirms our salvation for all eternity.

This gospel that saves is the grace that saves and all are a gift and if they are a gift, you must recieve it. If you don't recieve it,it just sits on the table of your life. It is your choice and if you want to call this ,act of receiving, works, then yes this is the only work you must do to be saved, all other works are like "filthy rags"!

 

[Boanerges]

Also, you keep mentioning this "measure of faith" bit. Did you realize it has nothing to do with salvation? Paul is referring to the spiritual gifts of believers. He is telling them that He has given each believer a measure of grace. He has bestowed upon each believer gifts as He sees fit. The believer is then to exercise these gifts but is not to think highly of himself for it because it was given to him by God. Everybody has a different role in the gifts but all are equally as important and all are given by God to believers. Again, it has nothing to do salvation.

You seem really confused Rojo. It is the faith that God gives (everyman) that gives us the power to believe.Without faiht it is impossible to enter His rest. The only other faith described in the bible is the miraculous Gift of Faith.
Adam choose to reject God's will and all men lost out.
Thank God for His mercy.

 

[rojoloco]

I hope my comments helped you to see that man is not a robot. God is love. Love created man to fellowship with Himself. He would not be happy with an automaton but Love is pleased when others share it's heart out of choice.
The very fact that we can save souls by leading them into the truth and out of bondage indicates that they could either:
1 Choose to stay in sin
2. choose to repent and turn to the Master.
Again, I hope this helped you.
Many blessings my friend,
your brother Larry.

Larry,

I saw many of the same song and dance arguments of man who lack understanding of Scripture and as a result, conform God to their own desires. God is not trapped in a box dependent upon man to let Him out. You say I am limiting God by attributing complete control to Him but then go and say He cannot do this or He cannot do that because yada, yada, yada. Who is it that is limiting the Creator? You also assume that just because we are given an option that we really have a choice. We are also told not to sin but that if we do, we have an Avocate. Do you really think Paul thought we had an choice just because we were given the option of not sinning ever and never needing our Advocate? Just because he speaks of our Advocate as a backup and instead tells us we are not to sin and not to use the Advocate does not mean it is a valid choice. There was never any choice in the matter despite being given an option. In the same way, the Old Testament Law was never an option. It was impossible to fulfill despite being commanded to do so. Again, the options presented were not possible and therefore, not a valid choice for man to make. The Bible is filled with options but these options are not always choices we can make despite how they are presented. You claim you leave human logic at the door and follow the simplicity of Scripture yet you then insert a choice where there is no choice to be inserted. You say there must be a choice if there is an option but I have given multiple examples where this is clearly not the case. You feel that the Sovereignty of God leaves man to be nothing more than robots. I feel it leaves man the ONLY valid option of salvation; through our Lord Jesus Christ and the mercy of the Father alone while not having anything to do with the will of man. That is Scriptural.

 

[RJ]

Larry,

I saw many of the same song and dance arguments of man who lack understanding of Scripture and as a result, conform God to their own desires. God is not trapped in a box dependent upon man to let Him out. You say I am limiting God by attributing complete control to Him but then go and say He cannot do this or He cannot do that because yada, yada, yada. Who is it that is limiting the Creator? You also assume that just because we are given an option that we really have a choice. We are also told not to sin but that if we do, we have an Avocate. Do you really think Paul thought we had an choice just because we were given the option of not sinning ever and never needing our Advocate? Just because he speaks of our Advocate as a backup and instead tells us we are not to sin and not to use the Advocate does not mean it is a valid choice. There was never any choice in the matter despite being given an option. In the same way, the Old Testament Law was never an option. It was impossible to fulfill despite being commanded to do so. Again, the options presented were not possible and therefore, not a valid choice for man to make. The Bible is filled with options but these options are not always choices we can make despite how they are presented. You claim you leave human logic at the door and follow the simplicity of Scripture yet you then insert a choice where there is no choice to be inserted. You say there must be a choice if there is an option but I have given multiple examples where this is clearly not the case. You feel that the Sovereignty of God leaves man to be nothing more than robots. I feel it leaves man the ONLY valid option of salvation; through our Lord Jesus Christ and the mercy of the Father alone while not having anything to do with the will of man. That is Scriptural.

Dejavu, I think I have been here with you before.
You are confusing, you contradict yourself constanly and really live up to your Avatar name....ROJOLOCO!
With all respect, you have your opinion but I reject it and leave others on this thread to make their own "choice", no pun intended!

 

[Boanerges]

Larry,

I saw many of the same song and dance arguments of man who lack understanding of Scripture and as a result, conform God to their own desires. God is not trapped in a box dependent upon man to let Him out. You say I am limiting God by attributing complete control to Him but then go and say He cannot do this or He cannot do that because yada, yada, yada. Who is it that is limiting the Creator? You also assume that just because we are given an option that we really have a choice. We are also told not to sin but that if we do, we have an Avocate. Do you really think Paul thought we had an choice just because we were given the option of not sinning ever and never needing our Advocate? Just because he speaks of our Advocate as a backup and instead tells us we are not to sin and not to use the Advocate does not mean it is a valid choice. There was never any choice in the matter despite being given an option. In the same way, the Old Testament Law was never an option. It was impossible to fulfill despite being commanded to do so. Again, the options presented were not possible and therefore, not a valid choice for man to make. The Bible is filled with options but these options are not always choices we can make despite how they are presented. You claim you leave human logic at the door and follow the simplicity of Scripture yet you then insert a choice where there is no choice to be inserted. You say there must be a choice if there is an option but I have given multiple examples where this is clearly not the case. You feel that the Sovereignty of God leaves man to be nothing more than robots. I feel it leaves man the ONLY valid option of salvation; through our Lord Jesus Christ and the mercy of the Father alone while not having anything to do with the will of man. That is Scriptural.

My friend, it is God who gives the choice to man and it is His one Word that declares it red emphasis mine):
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


And of course the if ( there would be no if if there was no choice) that goes with the choice:
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Thank God we can be instruments in saving the souls of the lost.
Adam chose, we suffered, God made a way.

 

[rojoloco]

My friend, it is God who gives the choice to man and it is His one Word that declares it red emphasis mine):
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


And of course the if ( there would be no if if there was no choice) that goes with the choice:
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Thank God we can be instruments in saving the souls of the lost.
Adam chose, we suffered, God made a way.

I still fail to see how you can add in a meaning of "if" when Scripture clearly condemns such interpretations. I'll post them again:

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

If we choose, it is by our own will whether we become saved or stay lost. Scripture refutes this theory. Our will has nothing to do with it.

And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

Nobody seeks after God. In fact, Isaiah is quite clear that God manifests Himself to those who do not look for Him. If they aren't looking for Him, how did they make a choice to be saved? Simply put, they didn't. God chose them.

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Once again, we clearly see it is according to His will and not our own.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Once again, not according to our own works or choices. His foreknowledge had nothing to do with what we would work for or choose to do. It was a foreknowledge on an intimate level that He shares with His Elect who are chosen out of His own will and purpose and not our own.

You can claim their must be a choice out of necessity if Scripture uses the word "if" or gives us commands. This is pure theory. The truth of the matter is in the verses above. There is no choice, there is no will, and there is no option other than the will of God that stands independent of our own. If a Ferrari owner comes up to me and says, "If you beat me while you drive your Dodge Grand Caravan, I'll give you my Ferrari," it does not mean I can really do it. It just shows the impossibility of it. When Paul commands us, "Do not sin," it does not mean we can be sin free. Your theory of a necessitating choice just does not hold water when thrown into the fires of Scripture which can be taken no other way but the black and white in which they are written.

 

[RJ]

Rojoloco,

I'll go no further than your first Bible quote because I know you will deny this answer as well as any other that would be presented.



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who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
If we choose, it is by our own will whether we become saved or stay lost. Scripture refutes this theory. Our will has nothing to do with it.

Dear Friend,

You use the scriptures, pick and choose , to support your own theory. You take out of context with no regard for the whole.

Your use of John1:13 is erroneous without including, at least, John 1:12: “But to all who receive Him, who believe in His name, He gave power to be children of God.

Can you explain “who receive Him” above?.....

I will: receive is a verb and denotes action, you, that means YOU, have to receive Him. As the verse says: you have to receive Him and believe in His name to be a child of God……

rojoloco,
Have you received Jesus Christ in this way, by your own personal action of recieving Him, are you a child of God in this way?
<o></o>

 

[Boanerges]

My friend, you seem to have a firm grasp on the fact that it is by God's will that man can be saved. It is simply the scope of that will you consistently miss as will be demonstrated by scripture below.

I still fail to see how you can add in a meaning of "if" when Scripture clearly condemns such interpretations. I'll post them again:
Yes we are born again by the will of God. What you seem to have missed is this:
Since it is God's will that all should be saved that scripture quite naturally falls under the umbrella of His Personally stated will:
This is the will of God:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No I understand that just fine. Let me clear that up for you:
In fact man can do quite the opposite of the perfect will of God and thus the if in this verse:
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


If we choose, it is by our own will whether we become saved or stay lost. Scripture refutes this theory. Our will has nothing to do with it.
For a clearer understanding read what I have posted below.


Nobody seeks after God.
True.
In fact, Isaiah is quite clear that God manifests Himself to those who do not look for Him.
He draws all men to Himself, manifesting His grace which is (amongst other things) the power to come.
If they aren't looking for Him, how did they make a choice to be saved? Simply put, they didn't. God chose them.
We love Him because He first loved us, without His drawing we could not come. Yet still all will not come.
While you have partially connected with the truth on that, no man seeks God on his own the Lord Himself gave us this :
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me
Jesus Himself said He would draw all men to Himself. This is the first manifestation of grace, God drawing all men to Himself. Just like Adam they must choose.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
The willing us to come is His, the drawing is His, the knocking is His.
Once again, we clearly see it is according to His will and not our own.
Since His will is for all to be saved man must choose or none would reject His love. Since He draws all men. since He desires all be saved, since He calls the any man to answer the knock He places on the door of their heart the proper understanding of that verse is this:
All salvation is by His power and His will but many simply will not answer the drawing and the knocking preferring their own lordship.


Once again, not according to our own works or choices. His foreknowledge had nothing to do with what we would work for or choose to do. It was a foreknowledge on an intimate level that He shares with His Elect who are chosen out of His own will and purpose and not our own.
I have a distinct advantage over you in this discussion my friend. My theology embraces all scripture concerning the issue and yours must skirt or leave out many verses.
The will is His to call, to draw, to knock, if any man, all men, not willing that nay should perish, etc; clearly it is God's will for all to be saved but not all will have this gift of love.
You can claim their must be a choice out of necessity if Scripture uses the word "if" or gives us commands. This is pure theory. The truth of the matter is in the verses above.
Scripture backs me 100%.
I have a friend who is a Jehovah's witness. He uses the majority of scripture on a subject and discards the few that do not fit his interpretation. Doing this always leads to erroneous doctrine as each must be viewed in the light of the others. All scripture is :
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There is no choice, there is no will, and there is no option other than the will of God that stands independent of our own.
The bible disagrees with you from cover to cover starting with Adam's willing choice to disobey God.
If a Ferrari owner comes up to me and says, "If you beat me while you drive your Dodge Grand Caravan, I'll give you my Ferrari," it does not mean I can really do it.
With God all things are possible. As an ex drag racer I have seen faster cars loose for many reasons;skill (or lack of it), mechanical issues, poor traction, etc.
It just shows the impossibility of it. When Paul commands us, "Do not sin," it does not mean we can be sin free. Your theory of a necessitating choice just does not hold water when thrown into the fires of Scripture which can be taken no other way but the black and white in which they are written.

The problem the Pharisees had was interpreting scripture without understanding the Heart of the One who gave the Word. This also always results in error.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Seek God prayerfully on this my friend.

 

[rojoloco]

Rojoloco,

I'll go no further than your first Bible quote because I know you will deny this answer as well as any other that would be presented.



<table style="width: 100%;" class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt inset rgb(212, 208, 200); padding: 4.5pt; background: rgb(245, 245, 255) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Originally Posted by John 1:13

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.




</td></tr></tbody></table>If we choose, it is by our own will whether we become saved or stay lost. Scripture refutes this theory. Our will has nothing to do with it.

Dear Friend,

You use the scriptures, pick and choose , to support your own theory. You take out of context with no regard for the whole.

Your use of John1:13 is erroneous without including, at least, John 1:12: “But to all who receive Him, who believe in His name, He gave power to be children of God.

Can you explain “who receive Him” above?.....

I will: receive is a verb and denotes action, you, that means YOU, have to receive Him. As the verse says: you have to receive Him and believe in His name to be a child of God……

rojoloco,
Have you received Jesus Christ in this way, by your own personal action of recieving Him, are you a child of God in this way?

Joe, you are focusing on the wrong spot as many people do today in Christianity. Instead of focusing on ourselves with the word receive, focus on God in the giving. One can involuntarily receive something. People receive the gift of life as babies without asking for it. People receive the release of death without asking for it or acting for it. The elderly receive help when they are no longer able to do anything for themselves. To receive something does not always involve a willful act on our part. It simply means we now have something we did not have before. However, in order to receive something, there is a necessity of one being the giver. God is the Giver in the instance of receiving salvation. The way we receive Him is by the receipt of the Holy Spirit. God gives the Holy Spirit as He sees fit and not in accordance with our own will.

Again, instead of focusing on self and attributing salvation to your own works, put the focus on God and His glory. We received without asking but He always gives in accordance with His will.

 

[rojoloco]

Larry,

I would love to reply to all those points you said but it gets frustrating with the format you use because when I quote you, it leaves it all out so I have to do it manually. Instead, I will just say that you are imparting salvation unto works of man whereas I leave it in the hands of God alone without any part of man. I see us as totally depraved without anything in our nature yearning for God. Scripture tells us we do the desire of our father the devil. Scripture also tells us a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Satan never desires us to choose God therefore, we will never choose Him. We are bound by our nature. It is only after that nature has changed that we can choose God but in actuality, we are already children of God at that point because the regeneration has already occurred. I place the order as grace, regeneration, and then faith whereas you, along with so many post-1600's Christians, seem to place it as grace, faith, and then regeneration. I gave a whole sermon on this topic as well.

Your Brother in Christ,
Travis

 

[RJ]

Rojoloco,

I'll go no further than your first Bible quote because I know you will deny this answer as well as any other that would be presented.




<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8 1pt inset; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8 1pt inset; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4.5pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 4.5pt; BACKGROUND: #f5f5ff; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8 1pt inset; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8 1pt inset; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; mso-border-alt: inset windowtext .75pt">Originally Posted by John 1:13 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
If we choose, it is by our own will whether we become saved or stay lost. Scripture refutes this theory. Our will has nothing to do with it.

Dear Friend,

You use the scriptures, pick and choose , to support your own theory. You take out of context with no regard for the whole.

Your use of John1:13 is erroneous without including, at least, John 1:12: “But to all who receive Him, who believe in His name, He gave power to be children of God.

Can you explain “who receive Him” above?.....

I will: receive is a verb and denotes action, you, that means YOU, have to receive Him. As the verse says: you have to receive Him and believe in His name to be a child of God……

rojoloco,
Have you received Jesus Christ in this way, by your own personal action of recieving Him, are you a child of God in this way?

Rojoloco, Please,

Can you explain “who receive Him” above?.....