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Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Fragrant Grace, Jun 3, 2018.

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  1. Greetings brothers in Christ

    I am seeking some clarification on some verses I quoted in another thread:

    I believe the verses below were addressed to believers....

    If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
    1 John 5:16

    But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
    Colossians 3:8-9

    However, Brother At Peace has stated that these verses are to the unsaved see quote below:

    John wanted the faithful to make available to men not yet in the faith, repentance from sin and life in Christ.
    The sins unto death are those not repented of.

    What is your understanding of these scriptures?

    @Br. Bear @Christ4Ever

  2. John talks of brothers in sin. In the new testament, brothers always indicates fellow believers or a blood relation.
  3. I hope I understand your question, if I don’t my apologies.

    For Colossians 3:8-9 it speaks “seeing that Ye have put off the old man and his deeds.” stating that we have been saved and renewed in Christ already, meaning this is for the believers.

    1 John 5:16 could be for either, it is knowledge for this wise and a guide for those who don’t truly know the truth yet. It’s sets those who need truth free and gives wisdom to those who need it.

    However the word of God is truth and every man or woman in their flesh is death, as we were. Therefore the fact that we are believers is from Christ and through Christ. What I’m trying to say is the word of God is not just for believers or non believers but for those who hear his voice, his sheep ( John 10:27 ) his sheep hear his voice. The word of God is for all sheep. Whether the sheep believe yet or not. The Word of God saves, renews, convicts and is almost a guide through every aspect of life for every sheep, and even though some verses may seem to be aimed more at a specific group I believe all of the word of god is really addressed to all of us in an individual way! A personal way from the Holy Spirit.

    I hope that there is some truth in this passage and if anything I have typed is untrue I am sorry.

    Blessed be the name of our Lord Jesus.
  4. There's no doubt the context and message of 1 John 5 and Col. 3 is fellow believers.

    In Colossians 3 Paul is talking to his brothers and sisters. He does mention "the children of disobedience" and encourages to mortify or..."put to death" their members.

    Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

    Little words do add up. The words 'but now' is a conjunction that shows the end result between those sins of unbelievers as opposed to believers putting them to death.

    @Br. Bear @Christ4Ever

  5. the epistles and or letters are to believers, and "brothers" in the case of believers is the born again.

    and to say John speaks from any position other then this one is a liar

    1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
    1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )
    1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
    1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
  6. Dear @Fragrant Grace
    I will try to add a little to the conversation.

    If you look at 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Je'sus Christ the righteous: 2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Clearly John is writing to the believers in this letter called 1 John, and more than likely a Christian Community of believers. The underlined/bolded portions should make this clear. First he would not have called the unbeliever "My little children", and then in v2 differentiates between "our sins: and not only our", "but also the sins of the whole world" which reaffirms that he is talking to believers and not unbelievers.

    Now as far as 1 John 5:16 to me clearly this is to the believer. Who is our brother? We just have to look to Jesus to know. Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. So the unbeliever cannot be our brother.

    This is meant to let us know that we can petition Jesus on the part of our brother.

    I'm sure Brother At Peace would counter with the continuance of the chapter to reaffirm "sin not" so they are talking about the unbeliever, which to me would be contrary to what Jesus said who a brother is. Still, if Brother At Peace is correct. I would just ask, since he is perfect. To intercede with Jesus for me that I would sin not ever again. Then accordingly it would happen as long as the sin wasn't unto death.

    Getting tired sister. So, I'm going off the air for awhile.
    Hope this little contribution has helped.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Sister.
    Fragrant Grace likes this.
  7. 1 John 5:15-16
    A brother here is not in a wordily or secular sence, it is a spiritual Brother, clearly a 'Born Again" Christian.
    Colossians 3:8
    Now that the "New Man" has come, put a distance between you and such sins, again clearly to the saved and not the unsaved.
    Fragrant Grace likes this.
  8. A born again Christian can not "sin" the sin that leads to spiritual death, but he can sin a sin that leads to physical death. The only sin that will never be forgiven is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". This sin is also connected to "unbelief", because it is the Holy Spirit who "convicts" of sin. Going against this conviction is going against the Holy Spirit.

    There was a "believer" in a Church at Corinth that was living with his Fathers wife, and Paul judged this person, and he told the Church what to do in their next meeting.

    1Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    This man later repented of his sin, and rejoined the Church. The destruction of this man's flesh would surly be physical death, yet his spirit would be saved in the day of Jesus Christ.

    If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us ours sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Asking God to forgive another mans sin in which God would bring restoration back to a man is a promise that very few know, or do.
  9. Previous Post Continued:

    I have read a background on the book of Colossians and the reasoning for Paul writing to them. It appears that they were in error in some practices/teachings. You can see this in Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

    My Note: I consider voluntary humility as being false humility.

    So, if false teachings, this would speak a warning to the believer and not the unbeliever who had yet to come to Christ. I guess one could say that there were unbelievers attempting to undermine the person and work of Christ and the sufficiency of the salvation believers have in Him. So, again, this was an Epistle directed to a Christian community, which as the book of 1 John was, speaks to believers.

    We have a tendency to forget that unlike today, they did not have the benefit of Scripture (NT). So, many churches were more prone to deviate or be influenced by practices/people we would now acknowledge through Scripture as communicating heresy. Probably more so here at Colossians, because from what I can find. The larger part if not the majority of this Christian Community were Gentiles and not Jewish. So, familiarity with OT Law and behavior would have been absent/unknown for the most part to them.

    Which to me makes sense since even though the Epistle is small, it doesn't make mention of the OT that I can find, which Paul was prone to do in most of his letters that had mixed congregations.

    Now as far as Brother At Peace's comment "John wanted the faithful to make available to men not yet in the faith, repentance from sin and life in Christ.The sins unto death are those not repented of" if read as a stand alone comment and not tied to 1 John 5:16 specifically, would probably find acceptance with any one of us! I mean who would disagree with the belief that the Apostle John would have wanted those of faith to communicate to the unbeliever repentance from sin and life in Christ? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing? I surely do, just not in the context to 1 John 5:16.

    I just think that in this day and age what we look to define as "Perfect" is really attempting to say is a "Godly Perfection", and not a spiritual completion for actions to be done in the service of Christ Jesus. Think about Abraham. After the covenant to which he was called to be perfect (Genesis 17:1), in which he was to be perfect. He bargained with God on the saving of the righteous in Sodom & Gomorrah. Seriously, does anyone of us consider a perfect person doing this? Of course not, but does it mean in truth that the person is not perfect or is it our definition of what perfect means that needs redefining? However, I don't know if I'd call wheeling & dealing for the saving of righteous people as being a sin. How about lying? Abraham lied about his wife Sarah and made her out to be his sister. Is lying a sin? So, I truly believe that we need to change our outlook to what it means "to be perfect". Completion for the duties required of us by God? Might truly be closer in line with the reality and align with what scripture states, then one without error in ones life or repented of sin. You can also look at Noah also called "just and perfect"......

    Sorry Sister. It appears I have digressed to another subject!!! One in which I have held off on getting fully involved with! :( Probably because it requires of me more than I'm willing do right now. Study, Research, Pray, etc.....which I'm doing, but not on this subject. Heavy sigh. Why couldn't the subject be on Love instead!!!!

    I hope this additional input is helpful Dear Sister. You are a treasure here at Talk Jesus, and I pray continued blessings on you and yours.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
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  10. These 1 John verses are TO Christians, but not all of them are ABOUT Christians.
    Do Christians walk in darkness while claiming fellowship with God?
    No, as God is light and there is no darkness in Him.
    There is no sin in God.
  11. John is indeed writing to the faithful, making known to them that our Advocate is available to those still enslaved to sin. (any man)

    Sinners are NOT doing the will of 'my' Father.
    So, you are correct; they are not brothers in Christ.

    Exhortations to abstain from evil are for everybody.

    I already have, so all you need to do is "turn from" any further sin. (And be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of you past sins.)
    Unrepented sins ARE unto death.
    God has given us this promise..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
  12. These verse ARE to believers, but they are ABOUT unbelievers.

    ! John 1 especially, is to believers, but ABOUT two different walks.
    One in the light...which is God; and one on the darkness...which is sin.
  13. I thank God we can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh since, Jesus' resurrection.
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  14. This shell that is decaying. Is still corrupted flesh is it not?
    I hope you understand that I'm not saying you have to acquiesce to the flesh. Only that there are functions required for living in this flesh that require things of you, that in our current state you still must do. While the Glorified Body of Christ it was not necessary for Him to do, though to communicate to the Apostles the power of God He did.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
  15. I have. Am I your Brother?

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
  16. This is simply not true. 1 out of a 1 000 000 people will interpret that passage as you have. This is directed at someone you called a brother in Christ.
  17. #17 KingJ, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
    Hi Fragrance

    Many chapters start with whom is being addressed. In this case there is no exception. Both verses you have quoted speaks to Christians needing to deal with sin.

    1 John 5 makes this crystal clear in verse 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. Then specifically to verse 16, in verse 13, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

    Paul did speak to all in attendance at a meeting as though they are saved. He never isolated a person as unsaved. His teaching on sin did that. 1 Cor 5 is a classic example. But we can also use your examples. It mentions sins we must deal with in order to inherit eternal life. There is no beating around the bush here. We will sin, we must just be sure to repent and forgive one another. If we don't want to repent and deal with our sin at all / reject all correction from fellow brothers and elders. Then we either were never saved or have lost our salvation. OSAS vs Arminianism. What we do all agree on, is that anyone who does not repent and work on sin does not love God. We however cannot say that person X or Y is not saved. Hence the waste of time on OSAS discussions. We also cannot say that we do not sin and will not need to work on sin. We certainly cannot state that that passage is not directed at Christians. I mean for 'crying out aloud'....''Set your hearts on things above'', not ''your hearts are set on things above''.

    What is also interesting is the ''sin unto death'' mentioned in 1 John 5:16. I don't want to make a meal out of it. But it does for me speak to a theme that I see throughout the bible. One of mortal sin. I don't want to propagate that we all now believe in mortal sin exactly as per Catholics. Just that we acknowledge that certain sin shows a depth of love for what is wicked. It is this love of what is wicked that points to our love or non existent love for God. Example, In a marriage, spouses hurt one another. But they don't divorce. They deal with it. Why? Because their love for each other / they know their love for each other is deeper and sincere forgiveness and repentance is inevitable. But should one spouse commit adultery? Ongoing adultery?

    A verse that is applicable / support for Paul speaking to all in attendance as though they are saved is 1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. The reason Paul speaks to all in attendance as brethren is because they are. If you choose to stay in a fire you are a coal. If you feel at home in a bee hive you are a bee. Christians are uncomfortable on this earth because we don't belong here.

    Another applicable issue is specifically addressed in 1 Cor 5 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. Not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. This for me speaks to good Christians associating with the wicked. It is inevitable to pick up flees / dirty hands when associating with the lost. God trusts that we will wash ourselves. He does not expect us to now also become lost. He certainly does not believe we are lost if we simply get dirty hands or pick up some bad habits.
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  18. This is not true as a Christian can walk either in the flesh or the spirit depending what his mind is set on. A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways. Walking in darkness dose not mean that darkness is inside him.
  19. Ezek 33:12; "And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, 'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.'

    1 Tim 6:11; But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.
    2 Tim 2:22; Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

    1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
    1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    Br. Bear likes this.
  20. I have posted these here before... I hate doing it... because I feel like it is "defense of sin".
    But there are several others as well.

    Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

    Here we see that word "brother" again. It has to be a Christian brother. In a sense... there were no Christians yet. But technically,
    anyone who believed in Jesus (i.e. He was the messiah) was a Christian. (Christ = Messiah).

    Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

    There is a term "brother" again. A Christian brother.

    Peter asks Jesus...

    Matt 18:21; Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

    If "my brother". Now it could be talking about Andrew (Simon Peters brother) but it is talking about Christian believers here.

    Here is Jesus's answer to that question.

    Matt 18:22; Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

    Do we think we can "out forgive" God?
    Back to 1st John.

    1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

    The "little children" here are all believers. Not actual children. It says "so that if you may not sin". But it goes on to say to the same audience of "little children"... if anyone does sin....
    Dave M, Christ4Ever and KingJ like this.
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