"The wages of sin is death" - not 'Eternal Death'.
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Ivan Chamurliev
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Hi Michael. I'll just give you my opinion.
If there is not eternal death, why is that even Jesus came to die for us on the cross? We have to know that He made a great sacrifice to save us from a great trouble, that was an eternal fire provoked by our separation with God. In hell (that is also called Sheol in the Bible) we will experience an eternal separation from God. This is because He can not stand at sin (any sin), because this is His nature, not just because He decided so. This separation will automatically provoke pain and affliction in its full form. This happens for the reason that we are meant to be with Him. We are part of our Creator, but as there we will be separated, we will experience all of that. He knows this very well and that's why He sent His only Son to die for us and to give us opportunity to be saved.
Maybe what you are saying applies for those who have already accepted Him in part, but it doesn't change the fact that the wages of sin are death and only His sacrifice can save those who believe.
Michael BoryAlis
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As is often the case on christian sites, there is much rationalizing and marginalizing, but little to zero scripture given.
Let's see you all rationalize Romans 11:36, I've got 100 more . . but will start here:
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Let's see you all rationalize Romans 11:36, I've got 100 more . . but will start here:
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Brother Paul
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Perhaps some people have a different concept of the meaning of the phrase "eternal death". The reason being is that in the Bible the idea of "death" does not equal the cessation of existence. The first death is the separation of the spirit-man from the physical body (in Sheol or Hades in the Greek). The 2nd death is never ending separation from that spirit-man from the Presence of God (sin cannot remain in His presence). As Isaiah 59:2 points out, our sin separates us from God. If we therefore die in our sin without the redemption He has provided, then in the eternal realm (in which pour spirit-man continues to exist) we remain ever separated from God.
This has nothing to do with the atonement provided by Christ. His atoning sacrifice was for all who will (all who will may come) but alas ALL will not come but some reject God and all He would have provided. His sacrifice indeed does counter-act the eternal death because through it we are RECONCILED with God.
Michael BoryAlis
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You follow the company line on the 2nd death, but you fail in the spiritual interpretation and the fact that there will be "NO MORE DEATH" which includes the 2nd death.
THE WORLD IS RECONCILED . .
2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them.
Andyindauk
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Hi Michael, the verse you quote is merely a statement of fact, it doesn't need rationalising. An example of this is the tragedy of a man born blind, the reason he was born blind son is given as 'for God's Glory'.
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. John 9:1-3 NKJV
Michael BoryAlis
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Yes, it's like Revelation 21:5 BEHOLD, I make ALL THINGS NEW.
Jesus would be banned here on talkjesus.com for sounding like or being a Universalist.
Andyindauk
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Maybe if He sounded like a Universalist He would, but then He wouldn't would He? He didn't sound like a Universalist first time, so why do you He's changed tack in the last 2000 years?
Jesus made many references to Heaven and Hell (Hades), judgement, belief and faith and unbelief, glory and places of darkness. You think He's had a rethink?
Michael BoryAlis
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Clearly, you've not 'studied to shew yourself approved' . .especially combined with the spiritual interpretation.
Nothing new to me.
Damnationist's hate the phrase "ALL THINGS" in the Bible, like Acts 3:21 "The Restoration of ALL THINGS".
B-A-C
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Some people have weird ideas about what a word means. Reconciliation for example. Some people think this means everything will work out perfectly for everyone.
But that isn't what this word means. For example if someone murders someone in your family. You might even be willing to forgive them, but even if you do... the state
probably won't. Jut because you forgave them doesn't make everything reconciled in the states opinion. They may have this person imprisoned for life, or even executed.
..then.. (and only then) the state will consider everything reconciled.
Many universalists think everything will be reconciled if God lets everyone into heaven. But the Bible clearly states everyone won't.
1Cor 15:28; is a core universalist verse. They like to say God will be "all in all".
1Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
However God doesn't become "all in all" until after Jesus abolishes His enemies. There is clearly an order of events here.
Some things will be wiped out, before everything is under subjection to God again.
Many false doctrines fail to take the true meaning of words into account, or they only take one definition of a word. Many times they take part of one verse out of context
and build a doctrine out of it. ( 1Cor 15:28; for example )
But that isn't what this word means. For example if someone murders someone in your family. You might even be willing to forgive them, but even if you do... the state
probably won't. Jut because you forgave them doesn't make everything reconciled in the states opinion. They may have this person imprisoned for life, or even executed.
..then.. (and only then) the state will consider everything reconciled.
Many universalists think everything will be reconciled if God lets everyone into heaven. But the Bible clearly states everyone won't.
1Cor 15:28; is a core universalist verse. They like to say God will be "all in all".
1Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
However God doesn't become "all in all" until after Jesus abolishes His enemies. There is clearly an order of events here.
Some things will be wiped out, before everything is under subjection to God again.
Many false doctrines fail to take the true meaning of words into account, or they only take one definition of a word. Many times they take part of one verse out of context
and build a doctrine out of it. ( 1Cor 15:28; for example )
Michael BoryAlis
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And as usual, they don't offer the alternative interpretaion - just as you have not.
Interpret I Tim 2:6 "He gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.
As a damnationist, I'm always curious how many people you 'witnessed' to this week so they could be rescued from ENDLESS TORTURE. How many this last year?
Hmm?
Michael BoryAlis
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You left off I Corinthians 15: 21-24 - I'll place it more in context for you -
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Andyindauk
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My interpretation of 'restoration of all things' in this context is the final undoing of the chaos brought about by sin, when there will be a new heaven and earth as described in Revelation 21.
At the risk of sounding like a damnationalist, the snippet you quoted goes on to say -
And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet (Jesus) shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ Acts 3:23 NKJV
Michael BoryAlis
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Yup, physical death. Just like "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge . . AND because they reject knowledge, they shall be rejected from being a priest unto me" - Hosea 4:6.
Of course, you assume 'destroyed' equates to ETERNAL DAMNATION, just like you do with 'Perish' in John 3:16.
Nope.
Catastrophizing much?
For the record, The Restoration of All Things is the FULFILLMENT of the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12.
Let's look at the full context in Acts shall we -
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
When God says "ALL" HE means ALL.
B-A-C
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The big problems with living forever in a physical sense is....
1. There are no people running around who are thousands of years old.
2. If you ever die from a car accident, terminal illness, or being gunshot... this whole theology goes out the window.
3. The Bible says you can't be resurrected unless you die.
When God says "every" He means every.
1. There are no people running around who are thousands of years old.
2. If you ever die from a car accident, terminal illness, or being gunshot... this whole theology goes out the window.
3. The Bible says you can't be resurrected unless you die.
When God says "every" He means every.
complete
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Hello @Michel BoryAlis,
The wages of sin is death. That is quite simple to understand. The Lord Jesus Christ died, taking the penalty of our sin upon Himself, that we may live.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Michael BoryAlis said:
The phrase 'Eternal Death' is a fabrication of Babylon.
If the wages of sin was eternal death, Jesus has not yet paid the price for our sin.
Once you move beyond the simplicity of it, it gets complicated.
I have to conclude this is a sad statement you have made. Are you implying that The Second Death in Revelation is not a real one? Jesus has paid for ALL however not all accept the Gift. The statements of scripture are quite plain and this particular book comes with a reward for its study and condemnation for any altering. I take the warning as a fearful thing not to be ignored or dismissed.
The phrase 'Eternal Death' is a fabrication of Babylon.
If the wages of sin was eternal death, Jesus has not yet paid the price for our sin.
Once you move beyond the simplicity of it, it gets complicated.
I have to conclude this is a sad statement you have made. Are you implying that The Second Death in Revelation is not a real one? Jesus has paid for ALL however not all accept the Gift. The statements of scripture are quite plain and this particular book comes with a reward for its study and condemnation for any altering. I take the warning as a fearful thing not to be ignored or dismissed.
You simply don't understand the nature of the Second Death.
You should muse upon the fact that when "God is All in All" (I Cor 15:28), "There shall be NO MORE DEATH" (Revelation 21:4). This means no more First Death and No More Second Death.
Here is another scripture 'Eternal Damnationist's' don't want you to understand:
Matthew 12:20-21
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Thankyou Michael BoryAlis for breaking through these hard-hearted and 'rebellious children'.
You're a true prophet of the Word of God.
Ivan Chamurliev
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Let us see a simple and very basic and important verse and meditate in it.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
It clearly says that those who believe will have everlasting life. The question is: Does everyone believe? Because here in this verse is given a condition and this is to bbelieve. Ok, someone might say or think that Jesus died to save all. And this is actually God's desire for all to be saved, but we can clearly see from the scripture that not everyone will believe.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Matthew 7:13,14
This verse like others show us the reality of the condition of human kind. Christ died and suffered with great sufferings to save us from a great and huge suffering. It clearly says that those who believe will perish, but that's why He came. To give us possibility and warn us.
Not everyone will listen unfortunately. I'm sure that most of the translations of John 3:16, being in modern or antique Greek express the same meaning to this verse.
This is what I think reflecting on the totality of the the word of God.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
It clearly says that those who believe will have everlasting life. The question is: Does everyone believe? Because here in this verse is given a condition and this is to bbelieve. Ok, someone might say or think that Jesus died to save all. And this is actually God's desire for all to be saved, but we can clearly see from the scripture that not everyone will believe.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Matthew 7:13,14
This verse like others show us the reality of the condition of human kind. Christ died and suffered with great sufferings to save us from a great and huge suffering. It clearly says that those who believe will perish, but that's why He came. To give us possibility and warn us.
Not everyone will listen unfortunately. I'm sure that most of the translations of John 3:16, being in modern or antique Greek express the same meaning to this verse.
This is what I think reflecting on the totality of the the word of God.
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