The Denominations Speak: The Sabbath

[brakelite]

Jesus fulfilled the commandments because He gave the commandments.
When we have Jesus we don't need the commandments.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:5).
He has the same authority as the one who gave the law at Mount Sinai.
This is because He was the one who gave Moses the law.

In Judaism it is wrong for a gentile to keep the Sabbath in the manner of the Jews.
And according to the Laws of Noah, there is no such command for gentile to keep the Sabbath.
This is because Sabbath is a sign between God and his people the Israelites.
For a gentile to keep the Sabbath can harm their soul rather than help it.

My answer to this is here....http://www.talkjesus.com/ethics-mor...ll-abide-laws-old-testament-8.html#post230988

 

[spirit1st]

1Co_13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Jesus was that Perfect ONE.

Anything imperfect is done away with.
His ways are Perfect.

 

[brakelite]

1Co_13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Jesus was that Perfect ONE.

Anything imperfect is done away with.
His ways are Perfect.

Perhaps you might be able to explain to us why the Sabbath day is imperfect? The Lord's command to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy is part of the law which Paul says is holy, just, and good. If Paul says the Sabbath is holy, and the Lord says for us to keep it holy, then how is it imperfect? Since when is anything that is declared holy not perfect? Or perhaps it becomes imperfect as we defile it?

 

[spirit1st]

No problem , He No longer settles for just a day . We must be Living sacrifices and living a endless life for Him. Our Home Now is New Jerusalem .He lights it . There is no sun or time there.

Rom_12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Heb_7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

We now worship and praise HIM daily. We are part of His family and household. His kings and Priests .

It a daily walk and Relationship with Him.
The Sabbath was part of the law. The law is NOT FAITH .Which we Now live under in our LORD JESUS.

The law killed All 100%

Love and faith gives all life forever more in JESUS CHRIST our LORD and Savior and CREATOR.

That why the Jews stumbled at this change of the law. They knew God wrote the ten commandments , Who could change them but GOD.
2Co_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


The law had no give in it. It Had to be followed perfectly 100% No mercy in the law. No hope for any .

But Now under Faith and Love we get mercy and eternal life for all 100%

Jesus full filled them .completed them .They were in part.

He writes HIS laws in our Heart .
Love and Faith
Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

 

[brakelite]

Hi Spirit1st, thankyou. I still don't see however any evidence that the Sabbath commandment is imperfect as you claim. Paul testified that the law is holy, just, and good. (Romans 6:12)Paul had no argument with the law of God. Neither do I. It points out my sin. That is a good thing. I then know that I need Jesus. I fully understand that the law cannot save me, nor justify me.
Paul also said that the law is spiritual. (Romans 6:14) It was Paul that was carnal, sold under sin, not the law.
You are confused when you refer to a carnal commandment, and the change in the law. The carnal commandment paul refers to in Hebrews deals solely with the change neccessary to accomodate Jesus being appointed as a High Priest. This is the carnal commandment, and it is part of the sacrificial system that drew to an end with the events of Calvary.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

We cannot draw scriptures out of context in order to justify preconceived theories.

God's law, the decalogue or Ten Commandments, is holy. Nothing that is holy can be described as carnal, imperfect, or irrelevant.
The rest of what you say regarding the laws written on our hearts, the law of love, I agree with. I also agree with Paul when he says "love is the fulfilment of the law". Thus when we love, we keep God's Ten Commandments. The commandments aren't done away with, just the means by which they are obeyed has changed. rather than following and focusing on the law in our fleshly minds, we rather focus on Jesus who is able to do exceedingly abundantly more than we ask or think, including changing us that we have the love that enables us to walk holy righteous lives, fully in keeping with all of God's commadments.
Oh, and another thing which you are confused on...the jews did not stumble over the law....the stumbling block for them was Jesus Himself

Romans 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. (Please note everyone...there is a law of righteousness that is yet to be attained...paul is not saying that Israel were wrong in desiring it, merely that the method they used was wrong...faith is the key to attaining righteousness, not obedience. I see in this forum a claim to faith, yet have no faith when it comes to believing that they can live without breaking the law...thus they, like Israel, do not attain to the rightoeusness of faith.They fail to live victorious lives, because they believe they can't!. And they get precisely what they believe!)
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed.

 

[whearn1]

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.This was God's command to Israel. So if you want to keep the Sabbath day this is as good a place as any to start. How do we go about keeping a day holy ? For some it would be activity that was considered holy, i.e. worship. To Israel it meant lack of activity, contained in all the things you could not do. For today's christian sabbath keepers it seems to mean assembly and worship involving only a small part of the day. What about the rest of the day? What does holiness look like? What is holy? God calls all Christians " a holy nation" 1Peter 2:9. He also speaks to us and commands "be ye holy" 1Peter 1: 15-16 Outside of Sabbath rest, holiness is keeping the Sabbath.
The Children of Israel worked very hard at keeping the letter of the law, while operating outside the spirit of the law. (2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life)
The keeping of the Sabbath as commanded by God involved two components, rest, (previously stated) and holiness. The bible shows us that Israel was not able to successfully fulfill either of the two. Holiness is an attribute of God that describes his pureness and unattainable faultlessness. The only way we could ever keep any day holy is to be holy ourselves. God knew before the command was given it would be broken. "the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world" and Jesus said "lo I come, in volume of the book, it is written of me, to do thy will oh God"
Now the letter has been replaced by the spirit, and holiness is available in Christ. Every day is a Sabbath and a day of rest. We dont labor for what has been freely given to us.
Gentiles dont need to become Jews to become Christians, Sabbath keeping to them was more than they (Jews) could handle, not having the spirit (Holy Spirit) as we do.
We should stop trying to find laws or commands that pointed to this time, and look deeply into God's perfect law of love and the grace and mercy given us today. Let us serve the Lord of liberty with the freedom He gives us. The truth did not just make you free from sin, but also freed you from the letter of the law. I hope these few words encourage you in the Lord, and inspire you to not linger in the old but live in the "new and living way".

 

[DHC]

Hi Spirit1st, thankyou. I still don't see however any evidence that the Sabbath commandment is imperfect as you claim. Paul testified that the law is holy, just, and good. (Romans 6:12)Paul had no argument with the law of God. Neither do I. It points out my sin. That is a good thing. I then know that I need Jesus. I fully understand that the law cannot save me, nor justify me.
Paul also said that the law is spiritual. (Romans 6:14) It was Paul that was carnal, sold under sin, not the law.
You are confused when you refer to a carnal commandment, and the change in the law. .

Hello Brakelite.

Brakelite according to you, you are a member of the one and only true remnant church.

I hope you do not mind being corrected by a non member of the one true remnant church.

You were correcting Spirit1st on the previous post regarding the letter to the Hebrews.

Then you blundered yourself and incorrectly quoted from the letter to the Romans.

Here is what you said;

" Paul testified that the law is holy, just, and good. (Romans 6:12)"

Now I will quote Romans 6:12, for you Brakelite.

Romans 6:12
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness;
but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Then you stated the following;

"Paul also said that the law is spiritual. (Romans 6:14)"

Have a look at the quotation above for the correction.

What I find amusing is the fact that Romans 6:14 actually says;

" for you are not under law but under grace"

 

[james1523]

Perhaps you might be able to explain to us why the Sabbath day is imperfect? The Lord's command to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy is part of the law which Paul says is holy, just, and good. If Paul says the Sabbath is holy, and the Lord says for us to keep it holy, then how is it imperfect? Since when is anything that is declared holy not perfect? Or perhaps it becomes imperfect as we defile it?

Perfect in this sense means complete. It is complete versus "in part". I wouldn't say the Sabbath or any of the laws are imperfect. But it is incomplete, without Christ. Like having a picture of your beloved, but not having the beloved themself. I believe in keeping one day of rest aside for the Lord. Every Christian should do this, and preferably on the Sabbath Saturday.

 

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite.

Brakelite according to you, you are a member of the one and only true remnant church.

I hope you do not mind being corrected by a non member of the one true remnant church.

You were correcting Spirit1st on the previous post regarding the letter to the Hebrews.

Then you blundered yourself and incorrectly quoted from the letter to the Romans.

Here is what you said;

" Paul testified that the law is holy, just, and good. (Romans 6:12)"

Now I will quote Romans 6:12, for you Brakelite.

Romans 6:12
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness;
but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Then you stated the following;

"Paul also said that the law is spiritual. (Romans 6:14)"

Have a look at the quotation above for the correction.

What I find amusing is the fact that Romans 6:14 actually says;

" for you are not under law but under grace"

Hello David, well well. Twice now you have caught me out. First in maths, then in proof reading. Teach me to do things in a rush before work eh! The correct scriptures of course are Romans 7:12, and 14. duh.

 

[brakelite]

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.This was God's command to Israel. So if you want to keep the Sabbath day this is as good a place as any to start. How do we go about keeping a day holy ? For some it would be activity that was considered holy, i.e. worship. To Israel it meant lack of activity, contained in all the things you could not do. For today's christian sabbath keepers it seems to mean assembly and worship involving only a small part of the day. What about the rest of the day? What does holiness look like? What is holy? God calls all Christians " a holy nation" 1Peter 2:9. He also speaks to us and commands "be ye holy" 1Peter 1: 15-16 Outside of Sabbath rest, holiness is keeping the Sabbath.
The Children of Israel worked very hard at keeping the letter of the law, while operating outside the spirit of the law. (2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life)
The keeping of the Sabbath as commanded by God involved two components, rest, (previously stated) and holiness. The bible shows us that Israel was not able to successfully fulfill either of the two. Holiness is an attribute of God that describes his pureness and unattainable faultlessness. The only way we could ever keep any day holy is to be holy ourselves. God knew before the command was given it would be broken. "the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world" and Jesus said "lo I come, in volume of the book, it is written of me, to do thy will oh God"
Now the letter has been replaced by the spirit, and holiness is available in Christ. Every day is a Sabbath and a day of rest. We dont labor for what has been freely given to us.
Gentiles dont need to become Jews to become Christians, Sabbath keeping to them was more than they (Jews) could handle, not having the spirit (Holy Spirit) as we do.
We should stop trying to find laws or commands that pointed to this time, and look deeply into God's perfect law of love and the grace and mercy given us today. Let us serve the Lord of liberty with the freedom He gives us. The truth did not just make you free from sin, but also freed you from the letter of the law. I hope these few words encourage you in the Lord, and inspire you to not linger in the old but live in the "new and living way".

Hello Whearn1. An interesting response. My answer to your query regarding holiness is much in the same vein as I posted above.....

QUOTE: I also agree with Paul when he says "love is the fulfilment of the law". Thus when we love, we keep God's Ten Commandments. The commandments aren't done away with, just the means by which they are obeyed has changed. rather than following and focusing on the law in our fleshly minds, we rather focus on Jesus who is able to do exceedingly abundantly more than we ask or think, including changing us that we have the love that enables us to walk holy righteous lives, fully in keeping with all of God's commadments.

Although rest and worship are a part of keeping the Sabbath, they are but a part. The principle purpose of the Sabbath, that is setting aside one 24 hour day in the week, is to focus on our relationships. First with Jesus, then with one another. It is a day for setting aside the worldly cares and distractions, and allowing ourselves to revel in God's presence. It is a day for spiritual healing. For renewal. For strengthening. Basking in God's mercy, grace, and love for one whole day and sharing that same mercy, grace, and love with family, friends, brothers and sisters in Christ, neighbours and strangers, is a blessing. A delight. It is a day like no other. When God blessed it, and sanctified it, making it holy, it becomes a day of blessing for all those who embrace it. This isn't legalistic commandment keeping "trying to be good" self-righteous piety and religious clap-trap. The Sabbath is a gift from God intended for all mankind to enjoy and embrace. Being a gift from God means it is for our benefit. For our good. It is the best day of the week, a day I personally look forward to from Sunday on. While some say we should worship every day, I agree, and I do. Others say our rest in Christ is all that is required. I would say that unless one has experienced the sabbath, they cannot know what true rest is. Being holy isn't about going about with a look of piety with hands clasped in an attitude of prayer. Nor is it constantly mumbling prayers under ones breath like some emaciated monk of the middle ages. Holiness is being connected to Jesus. Holiness is being attached to the vine, allowing His Spirit, power, strength, and life to fully flood the soul. And as spirit1st is want to repeat so often and rightly so, it is about love. I love Jesus with everything I have got. I surrender all to Him who died for me, and is risen and so graciously drew me to Him. If God has set aside a day that I might draw even closer to Him and come to know Him better, then I will faithfully keep that appointment with Him and join Him on that day and enjoy His presence and love.
And what's more , I will recommend that all those with whom I converse, whether it be online or in person, to also welcome the Sabbath every week, embrace it, remember it, open it up as a gift from your Creator, and enjoy its manifold blessings.

 

[DHC]

The word 'covenant' is so very important to understand, in order to correctly
interpret the scripture. God all through the pages of the scripture, has in different
ages enacted different covenants with selected people in order to implement His
salvation strategy.

Here are three different covenants to consider that appear in the Old Testamament.

One covenant God established with Noah and mankind (all flesh).

Another covenant God established with the nation of Israel.

And the final covenant God established with all mankind.

For the sake of brevity I will print three key verses from the scripture.
Each quotation specifies the precise covenant that God instituted.

If you read the quotations carefully you will see the important differences
between these three covenants. It is in the legal fine print of these covenants
that the scope of each covenant and it's application is understood.

Here is a covenant God made with Noah.

Genesis 9:16
When the rainbow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting
covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.

Here is a second covenant God made with the nation of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4
7 For what great nation (Israel) is there that has a God so near to it as is the Lord our God
whenever we call on Him?...13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded
you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Finally, the last covenant.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, This cup which is
poured out for you is the New Covenant in My blood.

Now first covenant with Noah was not a conditional covenant, mankind's behavior did
not alter the provision by God to not flood the earth. This covenant has no expiry date,
this covenant cannot be annulled or changed, it is an everlasting covenant. There is no
fine print in this legal covenant that could disqualify the recipient party (mankind).

When we read the second covenant it is clear that the covenant with Moses was conditional.
The people of Israel had to perform the ten commandments. If the nation of Israel failed
to perform the ten commandments the covenant was annulled, terminated. This covenant
only applied to the nation of Israel, the 'beloved', chosen people.

Why is the understanding of a covenant so important to us? Simply said, if one fails to
identify the covenants and the subject people of the covenant. One will fail to correctly
identify the purpose of God's plan for humanity. Doctrinal confusion will abound and
theological debate will ensue.

We need to be aware that God established a New Covenant with mankind that surpassed
these older covenants. A completely new ground breaking eternal covenant. This New
Covenant far exceeds any older covenant, this New Covenant was predestined before
even the creation itself. It is a Spiritual Covenant and Eternal with no parallel in history.

So which laws from the older Mosaic covenant carry over into the New Covenant?

It depends on which covenant you are going to obey. If you consider youself 'under' the
Mosaic covenant then you are under the ten commandments. If you align yourself with the
New Covenant then the ten commandments have no significance.

For the ten commandments are the foundation of the older Mosaic covenant.
If you decide to take the old Mosaic covenant and insert it into the New Covenant
then you are in a most unfortunate position. You have created a hybrid covenant,
a false covenant, a confusion of works and faith.

One is by Grace or unmerited favor in Christ, and the older Mosaic covenant by works of the law.

Here I will reprint the old covenant so there is no confusion over which is which.

Deuteronomy 4
13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is,
the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

It is abundantly clear that the ten commandments are the old covenant. You do not
have to perform these 10 commands in the New Covenant. The blood of Christ is
the New Covenant and salvation is not gained on the grounds of legal performance.

Anyone who proclaims the sabbath or any other commandment of these ten, is void
of the truth of the scripture. Make no mistake, God instituted covenants so there
would be no confusion, do not be deceived by any angel of light or prophet.
Understanding the covenants untangles the truth contained in the scripture.

The sabbath is not a blessing or anything else for that matter. The sabbath is
the FOURTH LAW of the Mosaic covenant. The sabbath was given only to Israel,
it is a sign for physical Israel. Do not be deceived!

New Covenant Christians are not UNDER Mosaic law, the Mosaic covenant is
obsolete. The ten commandments do not apply to Christians. We receive salvation
not by obedience to any law but as a free gift given to us by Christ. There is no fine
print in the New Covenant only submission to the Holy Spirit.

 

[brakelite]

Hello DHC, a very interesting post, and one you must have thought carefully about. I certainly agree with your first statement, that the covenants ought to be understood...they are most assuredly the basis of many doctrines.
What you share in your post is also shared by most churches today. It is very popular theology...the fruits of which we read constantly on this and other forums in the manner in which modern Christians approach the law, obedience, and ultimately, salvation. The question which must be asked: is the Ten Commandment Law of God the old covenant that was abolished at Calvary? To this question I will now give my answer.
First, I can only agree that there are some verses that refer to the Ten Commandments as a covenant. But is it the covenant that was abolished?
It is just as important to understand what the Old Covenant was not, as to know what it was. Right now, let us look at three absolute proofs that the covenant which disappeared was not the Ten Commandments.
First of all, we notice that the Old Covenant had some poor promises in it. The New Covenant, we are told, "was established upon better promises." Hebrews 8:6. Tell me DHC, can you tell me if anyone, or even yourself, can point out any promise in the Ten Commandments that is poor? On the contrary, Paul declares that they were very good. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3.

The above text alone is sufficient to prove that the writer of Hebrews was not charging the moral law with any weak promises. The Old Covenant, the one that was abolished, whatever else it might be, could never be the Ten Commandments.

The second thing wrong with the Old Covenant was that it was faulty. The Bible says, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8:7. Let me ask you another question DHC. Can you, or can you refer me to anyone else, who can find anything faulty in regards to the personal handwritten law of God? The psalmist declared, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Paul wrote, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12.

If King David, a man after God's own heart, and the apostle Paul, the greatest missionary who has ever lived, could agree that God's law is perfect, holy, just, and good, then what on earth is the modern theologian on about when he claims it is faulty?

Finally DHC, we have the clincher, after which any reasonable student of the Bible, or for that matter the English language, could ever again claim that the Ten Commandments have been abolished, or that they alone comprised the old covenant. Here is the most dramatic thing about the Old Covenant - it was to be abolished! "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13. Now we can ask a serious question that should settle every doubt on this matter.
Did the great moral law of Ten Commandments vanish away?

Anyone DHC, including yourself, who has read the New Testament must answer, Absolutely not. Paul affirms the exact opposite about the law. He asked, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.

Does the Bible contradict itself?

Can something vanish away and be established at the same time?

Did the same writer say opposite things about the same law?

Just to be certain that Paul was not saying that the Old Covenant was the law, let us insert the words "Old Covenant" instead of the word "law" into Romans 3:31. "Do we than make void the Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Old Covenant." Your entire premise above DHC in your post above, would have us believe that Romans 3:31 means precisely this. That the old covenant is vanished away, and established all at the same time!

That doesn't sound right at all, does it? We know that the Old Covenant has vanished away, for the writer of Hebrews is adamant on that. Yet it can hardly be credible of such a learned man as Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit, could in another letter claim the precise opposite! Very clearly, then, we can see that the covenant which came to an end could not have been the Ten Commandments.

Because your post was written in response to the Sabbath question, I would like to now turn to that. Let us first establish a couple of theological statements upon which you and I will agree.
First, the new covenant, as with the old, was ratified by blood. Yes? See Exodus 24:4-8; and Hebrews 13:20,21.
Next point we would agree on DHC would be the truth that once ratified, no testament may be altered. See Hebrews 9:16,17 and Gal. 3:15.
Thus DHC anything added subsequent to Calvary, or taken away subsequent to Calvary, cannot have any part in the new covenant. Correct? For example, Jesus shared the passover supper with His disciples prior to His death, making the "Lord's Supper" an ongoing memorial for His church to commemorate until He comes again. This needed to be done prior to Calvary, because afterwards would have been too late, and couldn't be included in any new covenant.

So the question arises, when was Sunday- keeping introduced? And if the Sabbath was abolished as you claim, when was this done? For it had to be accomplished prior to Christ's death in order to be an established point of truth in the New Covenant, and it had to be accomplished by an equally powerful and divinely proclaimed pronouncement as it was introduced. If Jesus intended that the Sabbath was to pass away, then one would think that the Thursday night in that supper room would have been the perfect opportunity, seeing how He was about the business of adding a last minute clause to the new covenant. But no, not any intimation whatsoever that such an important change had taken place. Not even the slightest of hints.

Even resurrection day was 3 days too late!!!

 

[Brother Paul]

To Brakelite…

I am new to this forum so I am catching up through this thread, but right in the first post I noticed you said, “A sign of The Antichrist is "...he thinks to change times and laws."He, only, "thinks to change," because, no man/institution can overrule our Creator and change His law.”
Two things…

The Bible is quite clear in the passage you cited that this is going to happen in the Anti-Christ’s part of the Tribulation (a specific three and one half year span of time that has not occurred yet) so this passage you are using for support does NOT actually support your point at all and cannot hermeneutically be applied by anyone whimsically as they wish (thereby changing the meaning of what the word actually says). We must not add to or take away from His word. Jesus however being God the Creator CAN interpret for us the greater meaning of all these things as all the things of the law are but shadows of which He is substance.

Then you say “There is, only, one time in His Covenant - the Sabbath” but you are speaking of the Old Covenant which has been superseded by the New Covenant IN Christ (this is one thing) and in addition in the Old Covenant (the covenant you reference) there are other equally significant God established appointed “times” that we must no ignore. We will discuss the right application of Shabbat in a moment but for now let’s continue.

All the quotes you are making are true…no denomination (except post-Constantinian Roman Catholicism considers “Sunday” the new “Sabbath”). The day the Christians were to gather together for corporate worship (on the 1st day) has nothing to do with “the Sabbath” and did not replace it. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, and we (those actually born from above) are IN HIM. He, the Lord, is at rest for now (it is finished…there is no investigational judgment) and we have entered into the Lord’s rest (Shabbat) and His Shabbat is glorious.

The 7th day Sabbath was only one 24 hour period a week and had to be repeated over and over perpetually in all their generations (as were the other appointed times and all of the sacrifices). His sacrifice was once for all and then He sat down. His rest (the rest we have IN HIM, is eternal and we worship Him from new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath…i.e., every single day without ceasing. He is with us and we are with Him continually…He is in us and we are in Him continually, we no longer are required to strive to obtain righteousness in God’s eyes…we HAVE obtained it by faith (the same faith as Abraham…we do not only believe in God we believe God and stagger not at His promise).

Now the Apostle’s never even thought of “Sunday” or “the Day of the Sun” when they established the 1st day as the day we would corporately worship.It was not even in their frame of reference. This does not violate the 4th commandment because the 4th commandment nowhere says (in fact nowhere in the entire law) that we are to gather for corporate worship on the 7th day (this interpretation is eisegesis not exegesis another inappropriate hermeneutic). The Lord all through the Old Testament also honors the 1st day concept (a day of restoration, liberation, new beginnings, newness of life, etc. also many are Sabbaths).

This being said, the reason the Apostle’s began this as our tradition had nothing to do with Sundays or a day of the Sun, it was because this day (the Feast of First fruits another of God’s appointed times in the Old Covenant) is the day He rose from the dead (more on that later as we discuss) which for us is a day of restoration, liberation, deliverance, new life, etc.,...He appeared always on 1st days and the church was birthed (the Spirit was given) on a first day....

In fact the members of that old covenant are commended in the law (Leviticus 23) to convocate (gather) and observe the Sabbath (keeping it holy) “in (that’s where) all (different places) your (personal) dwellings (plural)”! Exodus tells us not to go far from our home, and in chapter 16:29 the Lord specifically tells us “let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” Thus going to church/synagogue/tabernacle/temple on the 7th day is NOT the command of God (though it is fine because it matters not which day we gather for corporate worship).

Now the argument is made, “But Jesus went to synagogue on the Sabbath and so did Paul” but if you read the text unfettered by what one is taught this means and reads it for what it actually says we cannot divorce the phrase “as was His custom” (Paul’s as well). The word custom refers to a tradition that was started during the Babylonian Captivity so the people could gather and be reminded and discuss and practice their Judaistic heritage and be reminded of the Torah (not necessarily Israelite since this was just the Southern Kingdom). It was so they would not forget as many of the Israelites had done after 100’s of years,

NOWHERE in the Old Testament do we see the children of Israel (nor in either Kingdom after the divided) gathering together for corporate worship on the 7th day Sabbath…I just wanted to make that clear. Then I hear the reasoning which says “If Jesus kept this CUSTOM and He is our example we should also do this” but the fact is Jesus and all the Apostles also kept the “custom” of keeping Purim and the Feast of Dedication (Chanukah), neither of which are commanded either, and by this logic we MUST also keep these (do you?)…Jesus as was the custom for a Rabbi (which He and Paul both were) were a Tallith with the Tzit Tzit…does your pastor do this? Ooohhh! I am telling Abba (Daddy)…

The point is (and history supports this) from the very beginning the teaching passed on from the Apostles to the men they trained and appointed as THE first Bishops of all the churches (no matter where they write from, no matter which Apostle founded them and taught them) is to gather on the 1st day of the week for corporate worship. So without having read all the other posts (which I am doing now) I just thought it important to set these facts straight (and they are not my opinion, they are the truth).

In His love
Brother Paul

 

[brakelite]

@Brother Paul....greetings. Welcome to the discussion, I look forward to hearing from you further. Just a little point....I was not the writer of the post you first cited regarding the antichrist. I believe that was Herald, unless my memory has failed me. And on that point, you said that the antichrist is not yet come and that there is yet a future literal 3 and 1/2 years during which he will reign. I, and along with nearly all the reformers, disagree with that assessment. I go into detail in another thread entitled "Were they right". Perhaps you might like to read through my arguments there, and respond in that thread as you see fit. I suggest you start at the beginning however because throiughout the thread many different points and evidences are presented.

As to your other points in your post above, I think I will wait until you've read through the entire thread and caught up...I believe most of your questions have already been answered.If not, come back.:smiley:

 

[Brother Paul]

Yes my apologies it was not your post...thanks

 

[Barny]

New Covenant Christians are not UNDER Mosaic law, the Mosaic covenant is
obsolete. The ten commandments do not apply to Christians. We receive salvation
not by obedience to any law but as a free gift given to us by Christ. There is no fine
print in the New Covenant only submission to the Holy Spirit.

Under the new covenant we remain in covenant if we continue to obey God's commandment to believe in Jesus.

1 Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (Rom 10:9) in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

And Paul succeeded in fighting the good fight of faith. Paul remained without spot, blameless, in keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus.
2 Tim 4:7-8
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

[DHC]

First, I can only agree that there are some verses that refer to the Ten Commandments as a covenant. But is it the covenant that was abolished?

Hello Brakelite, thanks for your post in reply to my post regarding the covenants.

You mentioned firstly the following;

"First, I can only agree that there are some verses that refer to the Ten Commandments as a covenant."

Yes sir, this is the point that I was endeavoring to make, the covenant God made
with the Israelites was written on the tablets of stone. The law or ten commandments is
what was given to the Israelites at Mt Sinai. Here are some other verses which
prove this point.

Exodus 34
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance
with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Exodus 34
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat
bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant,
the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 9:9
When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of
the covenant which the Lord had made with you.

Deuteronomy 9:11
It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the Lord gave me the
two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.

So the ten commandments are in fact the old covenant Brakelite.

The two tablets of stone God gave Moses are distinctly the tablets of the covenant.

Now Brakelite have a look at theses verses in the New Testament which also
refer to the ten commandments.

2 Corinthians 3
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone
but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 3
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but
of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones...

2 Corinthians 3
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart...

Where Brakelite does the scripture state that obedience to the ten commandments
will provide eternal life. These ten commandments simply illustrate that the Jews
are sinful because they could not obey the ten commandments. Law convicts of sin
because written law will not and cannot be obeyed. No one can be justified by the
law because no one is good.

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3
10 There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;

This is why the law is established by Paul, it has condemned Israel so all
mankind is condemned. This is the purpose of the law!!!

Hebrews 7
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment
because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect),
and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we
draw near to God.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

 

[spirit1st]

Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:



Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb_7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

He is our rest and peace and life. It All in Him or we have Nothing.


Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It not though our flesh works we please HIM. Only though our spirit man. It got to come from the Heart ,Our spirit Man.

People still want to do it with there carnal thinking.



This is in the Old Testament.
Mat_12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat_12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[Brother Paul]

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite, thanks for your post in reply to my post regarding the covenants.

You mentioned firstly the following;

"First, I can only agree that there are some verses that refer to the Ten Commandments as a covenant."

Yes sir, this is the point that I was endeavoring to make, the covenant God made
with the Israelites was written on the tablets of stone. The law or ten commandments is
what was given to the Israelites at Mt Sinai. Here are some other verses which
prove this point.

Exodus 34
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance
with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Exodus 34
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat
bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant,
the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 9:9
When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of
the covenant which the Lord had made with you.

Deuteronomy 9:11
It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the Lord gave me the
two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.

So the ten commandments are in fact the old covenant Brakelite.

The two tablets of stone God gave Moses are distinctly the tablets of the covenant.

Now Brakelite have a look at theses verses in the New Testament which also
refer to the ten commandments.

2 Corinthians 3
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone
but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 3
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but
of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones...

2 Corinthians 3
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart...

Where Brakelite does the scripture state that obedience to the ten commandments
will provide eternal life. These ten commandments simply illustrate that the Jews
are sinful because they could not obey the ten commandments. Law convicts of sin
because written law will not and cannot be obeyed. No one can be justified by the
law because no one is good.

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3
10 There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;

This is why the law is established by Paul, it has condemned Israel so all
mankind is condemned. This is the purpose of the law!!!

Hebrews 7
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment
because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect),
and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we
draw near to God.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

You have added nothing to the discussion, because you have raised up the usual strawman argument, "you cannot be justified by obeying the law". That DHC, is possibly the easiest to prove truth in the Bible. I have not met one person in all my 4o odd years of Christianity who has claimed to be justified by obedience to the law. Nor have I claimed it, and I am sure that you are well aware of that fact. The reason you raise it is to obscure the fact that you have no other arguments against obedience to God's law. While I agreed with your comment that there are verses that refer to the Ten Commandments as a covenant, you (deliberately?) obscured once again something important that my entire post was about, (did you actually read it?) namely, that while a covenant, it was not the covenant abolished or nailed to or done away with at the cross. And the texts I provided prove this.