The Beast

[just-a-servant]

You know what else I find amazing
That Jerusalem has a earthquake right when the Lord returns
Revelation 11:13
Zechariah 14:4-5
And Babylon does to Revelation16:18-20

norapture,
This is amazing and will be a fulfillment of prophesy however, it has no correlation to the identity of the city. Why? Because this earthquake occurs at the Lord's return (there is another major earthquake when the two witnesses are taken to heaven). The destruction of the city described as "Babylon the Great" occurs before the Lord's return. How do I know? The merchants and the ten kings. The merchants bewail the city's destruction and the ten kings must give their power to the AC so he may destroy it. If this occurred simultaneously with the Lord's return, there would be no reason for the merchants to cry and the seamen to wail.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[norapture]

Just-a-servant in Revelation 18:23
It talks about, light of candle, and the voice of the bridegroom, and of the bride
Can you tell me what city this is, by scripture? If there is a place in scripture that talks about a city that has , the light of candle, voice of the bridegroom, and of the bride?

 

[just-a-servant]

Just-a-servant in Revelation 18:23
It talks about, light of candle, and the voice of the bridegroom, and of the bride
Can you tell me what city this is, by scripture? If there is a place in scripture that talks about a city that has , the light of candle, voice of the bridegroom, and of the bride?

I don't know, pick a city, any city. This description covers any city on earth. However, the context of this scripture indicates a city who is THE trader with the whole world, who has great wealth. luxury, and splendor, who's arts and entertainment, production and husbandry, are the best in the world. This is no small town in Kansas - this is the greatest city in the world. Pick a city in the world today that matches that criteria and I'd bet my eye teeth New York City would be in the top five on everyone's list.
Now, if you are referring to the bridegroom as Jesus, the bride as the church, and Jesus the light of the world, then this scripture doesn't apply. The context clearly is about the city, not a reference to Christ.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

Any city you care to choose, must fit the description listed below, to the letter!

The great prostitute
She sits on many waters
With her the kings of the earth committed adultery
The inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries
She sits on a scarlet beast that has seven heads and ten horns
She is dressed in purple and scarlet
She is glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls
She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries
On her forehead: Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abomination of the Earth
Drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus
The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits
The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
The merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.
Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins
She glorified herself and lived sensuously
She says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow
All things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you
All who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth
Her merchants were the great men of the earth
All the nations were deceived by your sorcery
In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth
The great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality

 

[norapture]

Just-a-servant I did say according to scripture, so I wouldn't want to pick a city.
That doesn't line up with scripture.
Just saying you might want to search the scriptures.
Also there is another city , in Revelation that is called ( that great city) she is from above (heavenly)
The other is from the earth
(earthly)
But they have the same name

 

[just-a-servant]

Hello all.
Any city you care to choose, must fit the description listed below, to the letter! (Eventually, it will, but because we don't have the benefit of foreknowledge, all we can do is make an educated guess with the best evidence available. It's much the same as trying to determine when the rapture is likely to occur or when the Day of the Lord is.)

The great prostitute (by definition a prostitute is a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain, or metaphorically, an idolatress. I submit in this writing the woman of Rev 17 is identical to the perception of New York City - NYC gives herself up to the world for gain and worships other gods.)

She sits on many waters (Waters is a metaphor for many people. NYC is repeatedly referred to as the "melting pot" - "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breath free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door." is written on the statue in her harbor and which is a symbol for not only the USA, but for NYC as well.)

With her the kings of the earth committed adultery (Adultery is an unfaithful act committed against a marriage partner. In this instance the marriage partners are the Lord God and the Jewish people and/or Jesus and the Church depending on the microscope you are looking through. Adultery requires two willing persons. In this case the willing and unfaithful two are the kings of the earth and the city mentioned here. My view is NYC commits adultery, lustfully and with abandon, each day.)

The inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries (all of the adulterous and idolatrous things NYC offers the world only serves to make them want more making them drunk on their addiction.)

She sits on a scarlet beast that has seven heads and ten horns (this description is yet to be determined because the beast has yet to be revealed.)

She is dressed in purple and scarlet (colors of royalty and of rulers. NYC was the first Capitol City of the US under the Constitution)
She is glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls (RICH beyond imagination. Isn't NYC the financial capitol of the world?)

She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries (You can find any form of immorality and decadence in the world in NYC and all of those things are imported/exported in some fashion to the world)

On her forehead: Mystery(,) Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abomination(s) of the Earth (TBD)

Drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus (I believe this is yet a future event or events yet to be fulfilled)

The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits (as I've said in another post, I believe this is not literally seven mountains or hills. I believe the seven mountains are kings or kingdoms acting as the foundation of the beasts rise to power. There must be a foundation for any city. I don't think there would be any problem identifying these suspects once the city is identified. In the absence of proof, conjecture or what seems most reasonable will have to suffice.)

The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. (A city to whom the rest of the world [kings of the earth] owe their allegiance and support - a co-conspirator in adultery and idolatry. Does not NYC rule over many simply by virtue of her financial power?)

The merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality. (Is not NYC responsible for the wealth of many?)

Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins (this is a plea for people to leave. How many will heed it?)

She glorified herself and lived sensuously (NYC in a nutshell)

She says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow (does this describe NYC? I say yes.)
All things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you (in the future)
All who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth (NYC yes)
Her merchants were the great men of the earth (NYC yes)
All the nations were deceived by your sorcery (metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry. NYC? yes)

In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth (it is not necessary for the city to be directly involved in the blood of the prophets to make this statement true. It can be said NYC has the blood of the prophets and saints on her hands by providing financing to those who actually do the killing. This is much the same as Pilate washing his hands of the blood of Jesus and the members of the Sanhedrin who indirectly [not physically] crucified him.)

The great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality (Doesn't NYC export her immorality?)

In order to see my response, it is necessary to expand the quote box above. Hope this helps, sometimes it is repetitive.

IMHO
just-aservant

 

[just-a-servant]

Just-a-servant I did say according to scripture, so I wouldn't want to pick a city.
That doesn't line up with scripture.
Just saying you might want to search the scriptures.

norapture,
The line you asked me to pick a city from was: "It talks about, light of candle, and the voice of the bridegroom, and of the bride" This sentence can apply to any city, thus my reply. If you wish to make a point about which city you think it is, that's fine. I have searched the scriptures and have come up with my opinion which I have attempted to explain in this thread. If you have an idea as to which city it is, please present your case. I don't think I want to spend any time doing research for you nor playing a guessing game about what city is mentioned where.
I understand you think Jerusalem is the city and I respect your opinion. I'd like it if you not only stated why you think that and provided references as to why your opinion is the correct one.

Also there is another city , in Revelation that is called ( that great city) she is from above (heavenly)
The other is from the earth
(earthly)
But they have the same name

Show me the reference, don't make me guess what your talking about. ^^^^^

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[DHC]

In order to see my response, it is necessary to expand the quote box above. Hope this helps, sometimes it is repetitive.

IMHO
just-aservant

Hello Servant.

There are three simple descriptive features that the harlot displays boldly.

She says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow', the Catholic Church has always been the one and only
true bride (queen) of the coming King (Jesus Christ).

She is dressed in purple and scarlet, the cardinals of the Catholic Church wear purple and red.

She held a golden cup in her hand, so what religion uses a golden cup? The Catholic Church uses the golden cup during it's
mass. In fact, the Catholic doctrine surrounding the golden cup is a distinguishing feature of the Catholic Church.

 

[just-a-servant]

Hello Servant.

There are three simple descriptive features that the harlot displays boldly.

She says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow', the Catholic Church has always been the one and only
true bride (queen) of the coming King (Jesus Christ).

There are two basic ways to become a queen, either be in the royal bloodline, or marry into it. Since this queen is described as not a widow, then we can conclude two things: She is either in the bloodline and never married, or she gained her title by being married to the king who is still alive. (The sentence is written in present tense.)
Here is a key which you may be missing: The Catholic Church (as well as ALL believers in Jesus) considers itself/themselves as the "Bride of Christ." If the church is the bride of Christ and the marriage supper of the lamb has yet to take place, then neither the church nor Jesus is "married." If neither are married, then the church (Catholic Church as you've suggested) cannot be the queen as described in this passage. You cannot be a queen unless you are born into it, or marry into it.
If the "queen" described here were of the bloodline and assumed the throne without benefit of marriage, she would not need Jesus to make her a queen to his Kingship. Either way, she cannot possibly be the Catholic Church or any other denomination you care to suggest. Rome does not match your description to the letter.
The last alternative to the "who is the queen" dilemma is: it is a metaphor. A metaphor describing a CITY. NYC is the queen of cities in my opinion.

She is dressed in purple and scarlet, the cardinals of the Catholic Church wear purple and red.

Taken literally, yes, I suppose they do. But the Pope wears white, the Fathers and Monsignors wear black and those Swiss guards, they wear, well, you know! What shall we say about that? The fact they wear purple and red is a coincidence and in my opinion is nothing more than a piece in the conspiracy theory puzzle.
I believe this description is yet another way for us to deduce the untold riches which the city is known for. Yes, the Catholic Church has great fortunes, but does it have any trade with other nations? Is it's economy known for any manufacturing, any agriculture, any husbandry; either buying or selling? The only real export the Vatican has is its religion. It is not known for anything else, yet the world merchants in Rev 18 are of many economic types and became rich while trading with her. Rome does not match your description to the letter.

She held a golden cup in her hand, so what religion uses a golden cup? The Catholic Church uses the golden cup during it's
mass. In fact, the Catholic doctrine surrounding the golden cup is a distinguishing feature of the Catholic Church.

Again, I believe this to be a metaphor - one which is used extensively in the scriptures. I looked up the word "cup" in Strong's and found a great number of references, too many to list here. I'd recommend you take the time to look it up because it is illuminating. For purposes of this scripture the definition of "cup" (Strong's G4221, poterion) is: metaph. one's lot or experience, whether joyous or adverse, divine appointments, whether favourable or unfavourable, are likened to a cup which God presents one to drink: so of prosperity and adversity.
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon it is used of the divine penalties. I don't believe the Catholic Church fits the description.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[norapture]

This woman is the (mother) of harlots. So she is the first, to play the harlot with God, not the last .
This woman committed whoredoms, against God , she was Gods wife , till she committed
whoredoms, by departing from him

She is the mother, of the children
of the flesh, she is called
Jerusalem which now is .
Paul talked about this in Galatians
4:24-26
See in Hosea 1:2 that whoredom, was departing from God.
Now was the Roman Catholic Church ever married to God (no)
So how can she play the harlot against God,
And New York City , she isn't even old enough to be the mother of harlots, cause there was one that was a harlot to God , way way before NYC even was thought of.

So this is my question , who played the harlot first with God?

This would be the MOTHER, not the ones who played the harlot after her, the ones after would be daughters , but not the mother

 

[just-a-servant]

This woman is the (mother) of harlots. So she is the first, to play the harlot with God, not the last .
This woman committed whoredoms, against God , she was Gods wife , till she committed whoredoms, by departing from him(.) She is the mother, of the children of the flesh, she is called Jerusalem which now is. Paul talked about this in Galatians 4:24-26

I think you're missing the metaphor. Just because she is described as the "mother of harlots" doesn't mean she is the first. It does mean she is the worst of them and the one who led the most astray via her many abominations. The betrothed of God would best be described as the Jewish people although I'm not aware of any scripture where God had a "wife." It is true the relationship between the Jewish people and God has suffered over the years, but the reason is more properly described as idolatry. Adultery by the nation of Israel sprang from the idolatry.
Your reading of Galatians 4:24-26 is out of context. In this scripture, Paul is reminding the Galatians of their heritage of being born under the child of promise (Isaac). He is speaking figuratively that Jerusalem is under slavery like the children born under the flesh (Ishmael). This scripture has no reference to the Harlot of revelation.

See in Hosea 1:2 that whoredom, was departing from God.

The King James says: "Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."
Try reading another translation to gain clarity. The NIV renders Hosea 1:2 this way: “Go, marry a promiscuous woman and have children with her, for like an adulterous wife this land is guilty of unfaithfulness to the LORD.”

Whoredom is not departing from God. Departing from God is the result of whoredom.

Now was the Roman Catholic Church ever married to God (no) So how can she play the harlot against God,
And New York City , she isn't even old enough to be the mother of harlots, cause there was one that was a harlot to God , way way before NYC even was thought of.

I have steadfastly maintained that the Roman Catholic Church is not the Harlot of Revelation as is believed by many and I have outlined why I believe that to be so. As far as New York City not being old enough, age has nothing to do with the answer. As I said above, the "mother" title is because she is the worst offender.

So this is my question , who played the harlot first with God? (My guess would be Eve, although this may be disputed by any who care to do so.)
This would be the MOTHER, not the ones who played the harlot after her, the ones after would be daughters , but not the mother

Cannot daughters be mothers as well? As a matter of fact, the daughter of my grandfather is my mother. Was she the first? No, she is a mother in a long line of daughters who were first daughters, then mothers.

IMHO
just-a-servant

 

[norapture]

Scripture interprets scripture, so I will believe whoredom is departing
from God.
Just like my wife if she, she played the harlot, and layed with another man , her heart would be departed from me.
Now she could not been a harlot to
to any man but me, her sin would be against me.
Just like the woman in Revelation
her sin was against God, and cause many to follow in her footsteps.

 

[norapture]

Just-a-servant just curious, can you show me , the scripture that says that mother would mean worst offender?
just because someone is a mother does not make her worst offender

 

[B-A-C]

Being a harlot or being a (the "W" word) does have to mean you are betraying someone.
There are many prostitutes in the world who have never been married, and many more that aren't currently married.
Surprisingly enough there a few who are married and their husbands know what they do for a living.
To me - being a harlot has almost as much to do with being committed in a relationship as being faithful in a relationship.

Jesus said if you get divorced and then get remarried, that's the same as adultery. Some people takes Matt 5:32 to say if one spouse divorces
another spouse, they cause them to commit adultery. Almost as if the blame is on the divorcing spouse rather than the spouse who didn't
want to get divorced. I think commitment has a lot to do with it.

 

[norapture]

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? Shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the
harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.
2-- Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lain with. In the ways had thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and thy with thy wickedness.
3-- Therefore the showers have been withholden , and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a ****** forehead, thou refusedst to be ashame .

 

[norapture]

Jeremiah 3:14-- Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am MARRIED unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family , and bring you into Zion.

 

[DHC]

This woman is the (mother) of harlots. So she is the first, to play the harlot with God, not the last .
This woman committed whoredoms, against God , she was Gods wife , till she committed whoredoms, by departing from him

She is the mother, of the children of the flesh, she is called Jerusalem which now is .Paul talked about this in Galatians
4:24-26
See in Hosea 1:2 that whoredom, was departing from God.
Now was the Roman Catholic Church ever married to God (no)
So how can she play the harlot against God,
And New York City , she isn't even old enough to be the mother of harlots, cause there was one that was a harlot to God , way way before NYC even was thought of.

So this is my question , who played the harlot first with God?

This would be the MOTHER, not the ones who played the harlot after her, the ones after would be daughters , but not the mother

Hello norapture.

There seems to be some confusion surrounding the identification of the 'queen' and the 'harlot'.
There are a few points that I believe are important to understand about the terms 'queen' and 'harlot'.

You said the following norapture.

This woman is the (mother) of harlots. So she is the first, to play the harlot with God, not the last.

Whether the harlot is the first harlot, the second harlot, or even the last harlot, this is not stipulated to be
important in the text. The definition of a 'harlot' in the scripture, is simply one who forgets their first love.
Any person, church, or even a nation, can qualify as a harlot in the scripture. Please read the verse below.

Hosea 4:12
And they have played the harlot, departing from their God.

Forgetting and departing from God is true harlotry in the scripture. One does not need to be married to be a harlot.

The scripture does not say that the harlot in Revelations is a queen, the harlot depicts herself as a queen.

Revelations 18
7 ...for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow...’

She sits as a queen by her own proclamation, this is a title the harlot has given herself. A queen does not
need to be married to be a queen. Queen Elizabeth the first, was never ever married but was still the queen of England!

Then you said.

See in Hosea 1:2 that whoredom, was departing from God. Now was the Roman Catholic Church ever married to God (no) So how
can she play the harlot against God,

Hosea 4:13
Therefore your daughters play the harlot and your brides commit adultery.

Can a bride commit adultery and be a harlot, if the bride is not yet married?

Yes norapture, a bride can be a harlot and commit adultery before marriage.

A bride can be a harlot because a bride can forsake her true love, and this is the crucial point
in our understanding of how the term 'harlot' is defined in the scripture.

The Roman Catholic church does not need to be married to God to be a harlot. Your confused about
the terms 'harlot' and 'queen' that appear in the book of Revelations, norapture.

 

[norapture]

DHC am I to believe I'm confused, cause you say I am?
No you have what you believe, and
I would say you are confused, but anyway you can believe what you want.
It has everything to do with the
abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel , which I
would say , you have no clue

It's what is determined upon on
Israel, from the 70 weeks, 7 more
years upon these people (Israel )
and the holy city.

But if I'm not wrong, you believe
the abomination of desolation,
happen in 70 AD , I believe we
have had a discussion about the
abomination of desolation before.
I believe so anyway.

 

[just-a-servant]

Just-a-servant just curious, can you show me , the scripture that says that mother would mean worst offender?
just because someone is a mother does not make her worst offender

There is probably not a biblical definition for the word mother which would mean worst offender, but then there are a lot of words in the bible which have their meaning defined outside the scripture. This is why we have dictionaries. According to the Collins dictionary, the definition of the phrase "the mother of all" is: the greatest example of its kind. In this case, if the bible is referencing a harlot, it would be the greatest example of being a harlot, i.e. a worst offender.

just-a-servant

 

[B-A-C]

The Roman Catholic church does not need to be married to God to be a harlot. Your confused about
the terms 'harlot' and 'queen' that appear in the book of Revelations, norapture.

Yes, I would agree. You don't have to be married to be a harlot. A "hooker", prostitute, lady of the evening,whatever you want to call her, is a harlot
whether she is married or not. Harlot can mean unfaithful, but you dan't have to be married to be unfaithful. In fact if you aren't married, you may not
have anyone to be "faithful" to. So you are still unfaithful in effect.

Note: I am not talking about all women who aren't married. I'm specifically talking about those who are willing to compromise their bodies
for... well... any reason at all.