The Beast

[B-A-C]

Occasionally here on TalkJesus, I am surprised by a new doctrine. One of the things lately that has come up is the different ways people look at the beast.
A lot of it has to do with whether you are a preterist or a futurist (that's a fancy way of saying.. do you believe these things happened in the past, or do you believe
they will happen in the future). Some people (like myself) believe that some of these happened in the past, (not everything) and that much of it will happen again
in the future.

There are 29 verses in Revelation with the phrase "the beast". So what is the beast? Some think it is a corporate/government entity.
Most people think it is a real physical man. I've heard sermons that say the beast is Satan's counterfeit Christ, so therefore if he is an imitation of Jesus he must be a man.
Jesus was God on earth, the Lord of Lords, and the King of the Jews, he is also called the King of Kings. If we think of the beast as a satanic version, then perhaps this
man will be a world leader, dictator or king (possibly even a president?).

Daniel, Isaiah and Thessalonians may also talk about the beast, I'll try to throw the verses I'm aware of in here too. The question is, where to start. I will start in Revelation.
The first time we hear of the beast in Revelation, is in chapter 11 after the witnesses have been preaching for ,1260 days.

Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Rev 11:6; These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7; When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

There has been some debate about whether the 1,260 days here are a part of the tribulation. Also who are the two witnesses? I'll leave those discussions for another time.

Revelation 13 is almost entirely about the beast.

Rev 13:1; And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

There is much speculation as to what the ten horns, 10 crowns and 7 seven heads might represent. Usually I've heard this to be ten leaders on the earth.

Rev 13:2; And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
Rev 13:3; I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

Again like Jesus, this person is slain. After a period of time (3 days?) he comes back to life. Also there is some speculation as to what the leopard, bear, and lion might represent.
Some say the bear could represent Russia, the lion may represent ancient Persia (modern day Iraq and Iran) and the leopard may represent central Asia (perhaps Greece).

Rev 13:4; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"
Rev 13:5; There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

It seems the beast will have authority over the earth for 42 months, or about 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13:6; And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Rev 13:8; All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:9; If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10; If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Another area of controversy. "Pre-tribbers" believe the saints who are overcome here are those saved during the tribulation. "Post-tribbers" believe these are all Christians currently
on the earth at this time.

Rev 13:11; Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
Rev 13:12; He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev 13:13; He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
Rev 13:14; And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
Rev 13:15; And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

It seems there will be a second beast, perhaps a smaller lieutenant to the first beast. This second beast can do miracles such as calling "fire from heaven". But it seems he can
only do these miracles in the presence of the first beast. We see that anyone on the earth who does not worship the beast will be killed. It seems this image of the beast will
have a miraculous ability to speak and breathe. We live in the age of robots and special effects in movies, so whatever ability this image has must be very convincing.

Rev 13:16; And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
Rev 13:17; and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18; Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Finally all people will have to take a mark either on the right hand or their foreheads, this mark can be the name of the beast or the number (the infamous 666).
Some people believe the beast will appear as the Godly man who will deceived Christians by appearing to be spiritual. Others believe there will be no mistaking his intentions
and that he will obvious about getting people to worship himself or his image. Some believe that taking the mark of the beast will be a very subtle thing (perhaps like getting
a computer chip implant) but many believe it will be a very obvious thing (at least to Christians) and that no one will mistake what it is or take it by accident.

That's long winded enough, I'll stop here.

 

[B-A-C]

The last post ended with Revelation 13, so let's go with Revelation 14.

Rev 14:8; And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality."
Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

There is a lot of speculation about Babylon, is this Rome, the Vatican, a new City perhaps built close to where the original Babylon existed before it was destroyed. Some people even think
it could be Jerusalem. This is followed by an especially dire warning. Perhaps the most severe in the entire Bible. If anyone takes the mark of the beast, they will get the "wrath of God
mixed in full strength with His anger". Wow, you don't see language like that often in the Bible. Those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented with fire and brimstone "in the
presence of Jesus and the angels" and their torment will be forever and ever. Some believe that sinners and unbelievers will simply burn-up after the judgment and cease to exist. If that's
true then those who take the mark of the beast will be an exception.

It appears some people will be victorious over the beast. Back in Revelation 13:7; it seems the beast kills many saints. So this may mean the beast doesn't kill all of them, or it may mean
they are victorious because even though they died a physical death, they have eternal life.

Rev 15:2; And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
Rev 15:3; And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Rev 15:4; "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

It seems these people will sing "the Song of Moses". I myself have actually sang this song in my church.

 

[B-A-C]

Lets move to Revelation 16.
The first of the 7 bowl judgments affects those have received the mark of the beast. But it sounds like this won't affect any believers left on the earth.

Rev 16:1; Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
Rev 16:2; So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

Again, some people believe this actually physical sores on these peoples bodies, others believe this will be a symbolic sore of some kind.

The fifth bowl judgment also directly affects the beast.

Rev 16:10; Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

The sixth bowl also affects the beast.

Rev 16:12; The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
Rev 16:13; And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Rev 16:14; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev 16:15; ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
Rev 16:16; And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

Three "unclean" demonic spirit will come from the beast and his lieutenant (false prophet) which will cause the leaders (kings) of the world to gather together for a great war.
(Armageddon). It is thought this will be the greatest war of all time. Perhaps world war III.

I will stop here, It is difficult to discuss Revelation 17 and the beast without talking about the Harlot of Babylon, so that's next time.

 

[B-A-C]

Before tackling Revelation 17, I decided to go off on a tangent here and talk about 2nd Thessalonians.

2 Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2 Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2 Thes 2:5; Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2 Thes 2:6; And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2 Thes 2:7; For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2 Thes 2:8; Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2 Thes 2:9; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2 Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Some people say this passage is not about the beast, but I have a hard time thinking that it couldn't be, there seem to be a lot of similarities.
The way you take verse 2 depends of whether you are pre-trib or post-trib, it's either the second coming (after the rapture and tribulation) or it's both
the rapture and the second coming at the same time at the end of the tribulation.
There is also some debate about who is preventing the "man of lawlessness" (some Bibles say "man of sin" or "son of perdition") from appearing.
Most often I've heard that "the one who is restraining him" is the Holy Spirit.

I have also heard that the "second beast" (or false prophet) may be one of the people Jesus is speaking of in these verses.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

 

[Travis]

"Beasts" in the Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.) seem to often refer to kingdoms of sorts, not necessarily one specific individual by himself. Now, many Kingdoms have a ruler at the helm, and he could in one sense represent that beast as well, being the head of it. But, for all intents and purposes I believe that "beasts" in prophetic literature can be and are mostly referring to kingdoms/nations.

So, likewise, I think the beast's in the book of Revelation most likely point to a group of people, more so than one individual. But, that group of people may have a single leader at the top as well. A king without a kingdom is little threat, however.

That's all,

Travis

 

[Frony111]

Before tackling ; I decided to go off on a tangent here and talk about 2nd Thessalonians.

; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
; Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
; And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
; For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
; Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Some people say this passage is not about the beast, but I have a hard time thinking that it couldn't be, there seem to be a lot of similarities.
The way you take verse 2 depends of whether you are pre-trib or post-trib, it's either the second coming (after the rapture and tribulation) or it's both
the rapture and the second coming at the same time at the end of the tribulation.
There is also some debate about who is preventing the "man of lawlessness" (some Bibles say "man of sin" or "son of perdition") from appearing.
Most often I've heard that "the one who is restraining him" is the Holy Spirit.

I have also heard that the "second beast" (or false prophet) may be one of the people Jesus is speaking of in these verses.
; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

I agree that this is the beast spoken of in rev.. But to take the mark must be a subtle or deceptive way to get Christians to take the mark.. Because I would know something wasn't right if someone wanted to stamp 666 on my for head.. And it says many are deceived most people are not going to be decieved if someone want to stamp 666 on them..

 

[B-A-C]

"Beasts" in the Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.) seem to often refer to kingdoms of sorts, not necessarily one specific individual by himself. Now, many Kingdoms have a ruler at the helm, and he could in one sense represent that beast as well, being the head of it. But, for all intents and purposes I believe that "beasts" in prophetic literature can be and are mostly referring to kingdoms/nations.

That's a good point, I am hoping to get into more about that when I get to Rev 17 and Daniel. Sometimes it's semantics.
For example, Adolph Hitler might be the of the eight beasts ( Rev 17:11; ) so I guess the question would be, was Nazi Germany the beast, or was
Adolph Hitler the beast? Would there have been a Nazi Germany without Adolph Hitler?

 

[B-A-C]

Because I would know something wasn't right if someone wanted to stamp 666 on my for head.. And it says many are deceived most people are not going to be decieved if someone want to stamp 666 on them..

You may be right, but are the people being deceived here Christians or unbelievers? (or both?)

 

[Travis]

That's a good point, I am hoping to get into more about that when I get to Rev 17 and Daniel. Sometimes it's semantics.
For example, Adolph Hitler might be the of the eight beasts ( Rev 17:11; ) so I guess the question would be, was Nazi Germany the beast, or was
Adolph Hitler the beast? Would there have been a Nazi Germany without Adolph Hitler?

Ya, I also think it can just turn into a matter of semantics at some point.

I do think that there is more to the two beasts in the thirteenth chapter of Revelation than just representing two specific individuals. I think it's easy to get narrowed in on these as two people because of the prevalence of mainline dispensational theology that has dominated many circles since the 1800's. I like to take the scriptures pretty literally, but with the prophetic scriptures, there is still a lot of room for something "literal," to have a number of different possibilities, IMO. Plus the people in these situations are just puppets at the end of the day, it is the unseen spiritual forces behind them that are the real driving force.

Travis

 

[just-a-servant]

Occasionally here on TalkJesus, I am surprised by a new doctrine. One of the things lately that has come up is the different ways people look at the beast.
A lot of it has to do with whether you are a preterist or a futurist (that's a fancy way of saying.. do you believe these things happened in the past, or do you believe
they will happen in the future). Some people (like myself) believe that some of these happened in the past, (not everything) and that much of it will happen again
in the future.

I'm not so certain what you see is a new doctrine inasmuch as there may be more information available or newer insight into old problems. The issue with the beast is clarity. The Lord reveals more information as the days of tribulation approach. What we believed a few short years ago is now being challenged by a greater ability to focus on the problem. For example (your question):

There are 29 verses in Revelation with the phrase "the beast". So what is the beast? Some think it is a corporate/government entity.
Most people think it is a real physical man. I've heard sermons that say the beast is Satan's counterfeit Christ, so therefore if he is an imitation of Jesus he must be a man.
Jesus was God on earth, the Lord of Lords, and the King of the Jews, he is also called the King of Kings. If we think of the beast as a satanic version, then perhaps this
man will be a world leader, dictator or king (possibly even a president?).

Can you with any great assurance say the beast is one or the other (a man, a corporation, a government)? Not yet, because he hasn't been revealed. I do think you have raised a serious question and one I have been attempting to answer in recent weeks. It doesn't matter whether you're a pre-, mid-, or post-trib believer, the beast will be the same. The question becomes more of what he is rather than who. It matters what the context of his description is and the viewpoint it is given from. It matters what John sees and how he would describe it. I believe you must begin from that point of view.

Daniel, Isaiah and Thessalonians may also talk about the beast, I'll try to throw the verses I'm aware of in here too. The question is, where to start. I will start in Revelation.
The first time we hear of the beast in Revelation, is in chapter 11 after the witnesses have been preaching for ,1260 days.

You have written a very long article and one that demands a very detailed analysis. I think answering it in this format would be difficult because of the length required. I also suspect it would soon lose the audience's attention because most want a simple answer to a very complex problem and it's difficult to keep from chasing rabbits. You started in Revelation. I believe it starts much sooner and like you I am perplexed at the place to start.

 

[Winemiller]

Brother I would like to explain the beast to you. If you would like I can explain Daniel's prophecy in King Nebuchadnezzar's dream, but that is very lengthy.

What I will tell you is that the beast is centered in Rome. The parts of the statue actually represent 4 kingdoms, which are directly parallel will the bear, the leopard, and the beast.

Let us take a look at Revelation 17, The Great Prostitute.

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
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Actually brothers, this "woman" is the same as the beast. Daniels prophecy actually leads into Revelation 17. The woman, as it appears, is not actually a physical woman.

In the Bible, woman, commonly means, church.

Lets take a look at the prostitute, who is an impure woman.
Impure = False
Woman = Church

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Actually there is one church that is adorned in gold, silver, jewels, their colors are scarlet and purple, and the head of it wields a golden goblet filled with abominations.. Every king (or president) has at some time come to shake hands with this figure. Thus committing adultery (against God).

Can you guess who this church is?

 

[DHC]

Hello Winemiller.

You said the following in your post.

Actually brothers, this "woman" is the same as the beast.

Actually I disagree with your interpretation Winemiller.

The beast and the harlot are clearly separate entities, please read the following verse.

Revelation 17
16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate
and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

The beast hates the harlot and destroys the harlot, thus the harlot and the beast are not the same entities.

 

[Winemiller]

Hello Winemiller.

You said the following in your post.

Actually I disagree with your interpretation Winemiller.

The beast and the harlot are clearly separate entities, please read the following verse.

Revelation 17
16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate
and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

The beast hates the harlot and destroys the harlot, thus the harlot and the beast are not the same entities.

You're right. I'm still studying. Let me edit my response. Give me a moment.

OK sorry, i apologize. The second beast, the one whose mark is the number of a man, is related to the prostitute.

If you guys can guess what church the great prostitute is, I can follow up with the mark of the beast! Which is 666.

Think about it. Adorned in gold and silver, dressed in Scarlet (red) , and people. With a golden goblet filled with abominable things. Does it ring a bell to any particular "religious" group?

 

[B-A-C]

I think there is some truth in that.

Dan 8:19; He said, "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
Dan 8:20; "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21; "The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22; "The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.
Dan 8:23; "In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.
Dan 8:24; "His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.
Dan 8:25; "And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.
Dan 8:26; "The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."

Many believe verses 23 through 25 are specifically about the beast of the end times.
One thing that stands out to e at least is.. the beast is called a king. The animals in the vision are called kingdoms. Why isn't the beast called a kingdom?
Also he is called "the man" of lawlessness or perdition in 2 Thes 2:3;
Also I tend to think this a manbecause of the image (or statue) of the beast. It would be difficult in my way of thinking to make a speaking and breathing statue
that represented a corporate entity. Also it says that the second beast can only do miracles while in the presence of the first beast. Does this mean in the
presence of a corporate entity, or the presence of a specific man? I don't know for sure. But I lean towards an individual.

I won't post the entire chapter of Daniel 11 here, but many think this is a repetitive prophecy that happened in Daniels time, but will happen again when the beast
takes control of the earth.

 

[Winemiller]

Actually yes, the statue represents this.

The head of gold - Babylon (a wealthy, sophisticated, yet physically weak country)
Bofy/arms of silver - (Media Persia, an insignificant country in wisdom, yet physically stronger)
Torso/legs of iron - (Greece a much stronger force.)
Feet of iron and clay - (Rome, which represent the ten kingdoms of Rome which never stayed unnoted. This also represents the UK today, which has made many efforts to unite through many conferences, the euro, etc. They will never unite however because it is not God's will as it was prophecied.)

The beasts correlate parallel to the statue as well.

 

[just-a-servant]

Dan 8:19; He said, "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
Dan 8:20; "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21; "The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22; "The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.
Dan 8:23; "In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.
Dan 8:24; "His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.
Dan 8:25; "And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.
Dan 8:26; "The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."

Many believe verses 23 through 25 are specifically about the beast of the end times.

Here is the mistake concerning this scripture: Chapter 8 begins with a vision by Daniel which he describes until verse 14. At verses 15-18 comes an explanation of who will be interpreting the vision. Beginning at verse 20, the angel Gabriel interprets the vision for him. This interpretation continues until verse 26. However, at verse 19, Gabriel said, "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." (NIV) This is significant because the command to Daniel at verse 26 is for him to seal up the vision of the 2300 mornings and evenings concerning the distant future. In other words, the angel Gabriel interpreted the vision to Daniel, telling him what it was, but Daniel was told not to tell us by writing it down (seal it up). The meaning of the end time vision is withheld from us in Daniel's writing.
As to what the rest of the interpretation was is fairly evident according to Gabriel's explanation. The hard part is interpreting the "king" mentioned in verse 23. This king is widely held both in scripture and in history to be Antiochus Epiphanes 171-164 BC the great persecutor of the Jews. He sacrificed a pig on the altar of the Temple thus creating an "abomination of desolation."

One thing that stands out to e at least is.. the beast is called a king. The animals in the vision are called kingdoms. Why isn't the beast called a kingdom?
Also he is called "the man" of lawlessness or perdition in 2 Thes 2:3;

Think about it, if the beast were a leopard, it would be called a leopard. If it was a lion or a bear the same would hold true. The fact the vision (of Rev 13:2, which is what I think you are referencing) of the beast is a compilation of all three could only be called - a beast. There really is no other term for it. Monster, maybe?

Also I tend to think this a manbecause of the image (or statue) of the beast. It would be difficult in my way of thinking to make a speaking and breathing statue
that represented a corporate entity.

It's not hard to make an image of the beast in today's world, Just set up a JUMBOTRON TV like they have at most stadiums and there you go, it'll even talk if you want it to.

Also it says that the second beast can only do miracles while in the presence of the first beast. Does this mean in the
presence of a corporate entity, or the presence of a specific man? I don't know for sure. But I lean towards an individual.

Does not the leader of any world power only have power to act while in the presence of that power? Obama only has power to act within the US or it's laws. Cameron only in the UK, etc. If the leader is the representative of the power, then he can only act as the power gives him authority.

I won't post the entire chapter of Daniel 11 here, but many think this is a repetitive prophecy that happened in Daniels time, but will happen again when the beast
takes control of the earth.

That's for another discussion.

IMHO
just-a-servant

 

[DHC]

Actually yes, the statue represents this.

The head of gold - Babylon (a wealthy, sophisticated, yet physically weak country)
Bofy/arms of silver - (Media Persia, an insignificant country in wisdom, yet physically stronger)
Torso/legs of iron - (Greece a much stronger force.)
Feet of iron and clay - (Rome, which represent the ten kingdoms of Rome which never stayed unnoted. This also represents the UK today, which has made many efforts to unite through many conferences, the euro, etc. They will never unite however because it is not God's will as it was prophecied.)

The beasts correlate parallel to the statue as well.

Hello Winemiller.
Not sure if you described the statue accurately.

How many kingdoms(?) are represented by the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

1) head of gold - Babylon Empire
2) breast and arms of silver - Medo Persia Empire
3) torso and thighs of bronze - Greek Empire
4) legs of iron - Roman Empire
5) feet of iron and clay - combined Roman Empire?

Daniel 2
44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and
that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it
will itself endure forever.

 

[Winemiller]

feet of iron and clay do represent the ten kingdoms of rome which were never held together due to the germanic tribe invasions, of which three countries fell.
it also represents modern day europe, which will never be united, either through hitler, marie antoinette, or the euro.

 

[DosiaSP]

Could the prostitute be the Church? The beast hates the church and it is in the process of being destroyed. It use to be pure, now it is filled with immoralities to please the world and what man wants. . Could the beast be a Nation, a Super Power who will take over the earth and control the people.

 

[just-a-servant]

5) feet of iron and clay - combined Roman Empire?

I have no issue with what you've said in your post except for this statement.
I know the prevailing wisdom and teaching is the feet of clay and iron are representative of the revived Roman Empire - leading one to believe the Church of Rome is the false prophet or antichrist and that the EU is the ten kingdoms represented by the ten toes, etc., etc. The question I wish to pose is, "What if the interpretation of this portion of the Daniel scripture by modern day scholars is incorrect?" The vision Daniel had about the statue only says the feet would be a mixture of iron and clay, but did not reveal anything else about it's identity. The question is, "Is it really Roman just because the iron is present, or is it Roman-like? In other words, could the end-times kingdom spoken of here only have attributes of the Roman Empire (iron) and not BE the Roman Empire? It is a mixture to be sure and there are ten toes (kingdoms), but could not the ten kingdoms of Daniel also be the ten kings and horns of Revelation chapters 12 & 13?