Can you give me some scripture, to why you believe this?
Thanks
Here goes . . .
First a couple of housekeeping items: For the most part, I’ve used the King James Version of the bible when quoting scripture. I do this because most reference materials such as Strong’s Concordance use the KJV as the basis for their word studies, definitions, and commentaries. I’m not one of those who demand that the KJV is the only real version in fact, I usually read the NIV for understanding. Next, I want any reader to know that the subject matter I’m writing about is my work and my opinion. I’ve not relied on any other teacher’s work (other than reference materials) to form the basis of my conclusion. Keep in mind it is an opinion and is not offered as an absolute solution to the mystery of the scripture. It is open for discussion, review, and revision as appropriate.
Why I believe New York City is the Woman of Revelation 17 & 18
Let’s begin with the relevant scripture:
Rev 17:5 “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” (KJV)
Certainly this is not a scripture you can draw any real conclusion from on its own. These words are descriptive in nature and taken as a whole, are but adjectives describing the woman. These words give the woman a name and in this name are clues as to her identity. The fact the name is written on her forehead tells me it is out front – almost glaring at you. Her identity should be obvious to anyone and everyone. You shouldn’t have to look for who she is because it is “written all over her face,” so to speak.
The word “MYSTERY” tells me her identity would be shrouded until the proper time where it would become obvious who she is. At the time this was written, would John have known what that great city of Rev 17:18 was? John would have been intimately familiar with Jerusalem and would have recognized it immediately, yet he did not identify it. He was told to write what he saw. Since he did not identify Jerusalem, doesn’t it stand to reason he saw something else?
“BABYLON THE GREAT” is a metaphor drawing on the grand and negative image of Babylon in ancient times and coupling it with a new and imposing image of a revived Babylon. Notice I didn’t say it was a revived physical Babylon. Babylon of ancient times lies in rubble – destroyed by God never to be rebuilt. (That’s not to say efforts to rebuild it aren’t being made, however all efforts have been thwarted.) This is the “who” she is.
“THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” tells us she will sleep with whoever pays the highest price (greatest harlot) and the result of her alliances is evil of the greatest proportions (abominations). The word “MOTHER” doesn’t necessarily mean she is the matriarch of the abominations, it could mean she is the source of the biggest and worst abominations. For example, Saddam Hussein proclaimed before the first Gulf War that the invasion would produce the “mother” of all battles and I believe the word used here is similar in meaning. This is the “what” she is.
At this time it is necessary to bring other scriptures into the discussion. I’m not one who just makes a list of them; I believe if you use a scripture, you should explain why it’s important and relevant to the topic. First I will bring in Rev 17:1-4
17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
The first two verses set the stage for the rest of the chapter. They are a statement of what John will be seeing and what the outcome will be. The next two verses (3 & 4) give John a visual of the woman, her surroundings, and the condition she finds herself in. They too, help to set up the dialog in the remainder of Rev 17. Verse 1 introduces the fact there will be a judgment of the great ***** (the HARLOT) of v. 5. This ***** is the same “woman” found in the rest of chapter 17 and who is finally identified in v. 18. Verse 2 indicates why there will be a judgment – fornication. The word fornication which is used here is not necessarily illicit sexual relations, rather it is used metaphorically as worshipping idols, which the Lord abhors. (See Strong’s G4202 “porneia” and Thayer’s Greek Lexicon for these citations). There are many word pictures in these four verses and instead of dissecting them now, I will address them as we go on. Next, Rev 17:6-7
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Notice in v.6 the woman is drunk (meaning she has had a lot to drink) with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus. This statement indicates a contemporary identity for Babylon the Great and not a reference to ancient Babylon because the people who are martyrs of Jesus would absolutely be persons killed after his death and resurrection and the destruction of Babylon. The statement that he wondered in great admiration may indicate that what he saw was different than anything he was familiar with. I submit that most any major modern city would cause that wonderment to any 1st century person. Again, John would have been familiar with Jerusalem and there are many portions of the city which he would recognize even today. The angel promises to explain the mystery John sees and begins to do so in the next verses: (I omit v. 8 because it does not reference the woman)
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
This passage is one many scholars use to claim Rome is the city identified as the Harlot discussed here. This claim centers on the presence of 7 hills and the city of Rome being referred to as the City of Seven Hills. While true the city is referred to in that manner what is also true is there are at least three other hills not counted among the seven. The seven counted are: Aventine, Caelian, Capitoline, Esquiline, Palatine, Quirinal, and Viminal. The three not mentioned are: Vatican, Pincian, and Janiculum. Seems rather convenient these are not part of the scholarly debate. I counted no fewer than 70 modern cities who claim they are also built on seven hills (Wikipedia). Among them is Jerusalem with this disclaimer: “
This important religious center is situated on seven hills, but considering the various changes of the landscape over the centuries, it has not been possible to locate the hills on which the city rests.” Yonkers, New York also makes the list. It is just up the Hudson river from Manhattan. In my view, all of these claims of the “seven hills” are confusion foisted on us to obscure the true identity of the city which the woman is.
The word rendered “mountains” in the KJV is the Greek word
“oros.” In the scriptures it is rendered as “mountain” 41 times, “mount” 21 times, and “hill” only three times. In the three times it is rendered “hill” none of the references are in Revelation. Because of this, I am lead to believe the word rendered “mountain” cannot be identified as a geographic location having seven hills. What I believe is the word “mountain” is more likely a description of a ruler – a ruler who is very large or has enormous power, wealth, and influence.
Using definitions of the words mountain (Greek, oros):
resembling or suggesting a mountain, as in size, and head (Greek, kephale):
metaphorically anything supreme, chief, prominent, (ruler), one can compare the scripture as written to determine its possible meaning:
The scripture as written: “. . . seven heads are seven mountains . . .”
Written as an equation: seven heads = seven mountains
Substitute “rulers” for heads
Substitute “a mountain, as in size” for mountains
Result: Seven rulers = seven mountains, as in size
Now if you consider mountains only as upward thrusts of the earth’s crust then the equation cannot be true. Geography does not equal a ruler, but if you consider the mountain to be a large government or kingdom, then the equation works.
The remainder of the verse can also be reconciled to this because the woman is sitting on or controlling the seven heads (rulers) or the seven ruling mountains (governments) as defined in v. 18 (“The woman is. . . that great city, which reigneth over the Kings of the earth.”) Does Rome reign over anything other than Catholicism at this time in history? Does it have the capacity or inclination to do so? Is it a city on many waters (people)? I submit there are other candidates for this city. (I omit vs. 10-14 because they have no mention of the woman.)
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
The definition of the waters here is relevant to my hypothesis because the woman/city/***** sits on or controls many people, in fact multitudes of them from every nation and who speak every kind of language. This is not a small undertaking and doesn’t have to be in any specific venue. By that I mean the control can be governmental (as in one world government, though unlikely), religious control (as in one world religion), or economic control (as is most easily obtained and most likely). In fact there are only a handful of cities who can claim economic domination or control over any large segment of the world’s population. Other scriptures which I will present point to the economic aspect of this cities control.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
I think these verses are summed up by saying the ten kings represented by the ten horns don’t care too much for the city which has its thumb on their kingdoms. Since they don’t like the city (woman) they conspire to give all their power (economic and/or military) to the beast in order to destroy her. This confederation is successful until Christ’s return. This doesn’t happen overnight – it takes a while to get it done as evidenced by other scriptures I will recite shortly.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The only comment I will make on this verse is on the word “that.” It’s interesting to note the word is not “the.” Why is this significant? Because if it was written “the great city” it would be describing a city of the day, i.e. Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth, etc., but because it says “that great city,” it can be describing a city yet in the future and unknown to the people of the day. Basically it gives a future tense to the verse.
Now that I’ve postulated neither Jerusalem nor Rome is that great city mentioned in verse 18, I ask you to read all of chapter 18 and substitute “New York City” for the word “Babylon.” As you read, think of what the words are saying and ask yourself if the description accurately portrays the state of or condition in New York City. (I’m not re-writing scripture here, the allegory used by John requires you to substitute a city name in the passage. I’m just suggesting which city name to use.) If when you’re done, you think another city name should be read in there, feel free to do so, but when you’ve finished, if it doesn’t fit, it isn’t right. I believe NYC will fit in all aspects.
Chap 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Describes NYC pretty good)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Describes NYC pretty good)
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. (Nuclear bomb?)
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. (For fear of radiation?)
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! (Same as the woman in Rev 17:4)
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
I didn’t make too many comments in the body of this scripture because I wanted you to come to your own conclusion. It makes sense that the merchants of the sea stand off and watch her burn, she is visible from the ocean (Rome and Jerusalem are not). She trades with everyone in the world daily and has made many rich because of her excess and her size. They would bewail her demise. What city is or has been like her? Even in America, where other cities are similar, NYC stands out as the number one, who is like her? What decadence has she been responsible for? What fornications? Even the greatest assembly of the world’s ambassadors (UN) are quartered here. Neither Rome nor Jerusalem could make these boasts. When the economy of the world goes up or down, who is in control of it? London? Tokyo? Hong Kong? No, New York City!
What about the many waters – the peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Isn’t NYC considered the melting pot of all nations? She sitteth on many waters! Go up and down the list; up and down the scripture; find a single adjective or noun that doesn’t describe NYC – then draw your own conclusion.
IMHO
just-a-servant
