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Seeking, but not sure what!

Discussion in 'Introduction' started by seekingsomething, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. Most scholars of ancient works agree Jesus did exist as claimed in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived contemporarily with the apostle John, and the Roman historian Tacitus. Then came many more historical mentions and large works in the next century and continuing. Jews never wrote denying Jesus existed, but made it clear they didn't believe his link to divinity. They still look for the Messiah, who will meet the demands of their scholars. That's in spite of the huge statistically significant fact of Jesus' fulfillment of many prophecies from Jewish prophets. They just can't accept Christian claims about him.

    Now, if a person wants to diminish the reliability of authenticity of ancient writings because they were authored after a subject's death, then secular works such as Socrates, Plato, Aristotle should also be suspected, seeing the oldest manuscripts belong to a period 1,200 years after Plato died. Any Christian challenging the authenticity of Plato's words is subject to derisive abuse.

    As for why Jesus stayed around 40 days after his resurrection, he actually reported to the Father God right away, then returned later that day to visit the apostles. By staying with them that period he was ale to complete their understanding about what had happened. That experience helped them come out of hiding, then assemble publicly until Pentecost in the midst of the hostile Jews for 10 days after Jesus ascended for the last time.. He won't ever ascend again, but will descend and remain for a thousand years according to the Bible.

    Let me suggest that shopping religions ought not be similar to looking for just the right feeling like searching for that just right lounge chair. The world has invented many religions before and after Christ in attempts to define and deal with divinity and the supernatural, unlike the animal kingdom.
    Christianity is not like world religions, not given to be adapted to the ever changing comfort level of people around the world. It's the only faith with God giving his eternal son to die for our benefit. Typically other religious man-made gods are too selfish to do such a thing, in particular to love underachieving people. Christianity is given for the changing of individuals one by one mostly, who then influence their communities to change the way God desires, while world religions tend to affect groups of people directly, like Hinduism affecting all of India, which in turn regulates the individual. They lack individual relationship with any god until embracing Christianity, which millions are doing today.

    Technically you can't discover Christ by your own effort, but can only encounter him when the Father God decides. None can meet him except by way of the Father. Like the parables taught, invitations to come to a banquet were not continually sent out to the same people over and over, but were offered to a majority of least likely candidates. It's wise to not delay too long in accepting your invitation from God. That's my prayer for you.
     
    Christ4Ever likes this.
  2. Well god obviously hasn't decided in my case!
     
  3. @seekingsomething

    :laugh: When one goes seeking, it can be unpleasant, but probably for a lot of different reasons I'm sure. Everyone is trying to get their point of view across and the amount of information can be overwhelming. I'm a talker. So I have to take that into account when I'm typing my responses to you. In honesty if simplistic is what you want it's here, but also the more complex is also available. Yet, remember if truth is what you are seeking. A certain amount of depth of information is necessary to even begin to paint a picture that is accurate to the question you are asking.

    Most people don't hit the nail on the head the first time out, but you have. The Resurrection! All of Christianity sinks or swims on this. It's either a Hoax or History. My hope is that you'll eventually at least come to a point where you can then use the word "probably" :thumbsup: as it pertains to the resurrection. I say this because your use "probably" as it pertains to the existence of Jesus when I've presented a non-religious source and you already have the Bible as an internal one concerning his existence/death. What word would you use when I paint you a picture of the resurrection? I hope you can see my dilemma when the resurrection requires even greater information to study.

    You might come to find out that your point about "his body was stolen by his followers" is not the only point made concerning the "resurrection" that has come up since it was first reported. Just happened to be the first one! :) The Jewish religious leaders made such a point and is till communicated this way by some to this day. This is the biblical account of what you pose as possibly happening.

    [Mat 28:11-15 ESV] 11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

    I might not get back too quickly on this, but will try to keep it short on why it is rather unlikely that this happened to be the case.
    C4E
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  4. How do you know? It's clear you give your opinion but have done zero research. There's a ridiculous amount of evidence available including artifacts, manuscripts, modern day miracles in line with scripture, fulfilled prophecies, hundreds of them.

    Let me also remind you it's 2015. Calendar began based on the birth of Jesus Christ.
     
    Sent from an iPhone
  5. Sent from an iPhone
  6. Sorry what has the calendar got to do with anything?
     
  7. The beginning of the years leading up to 2015 is the number of years since Christ was born. For someone so quick to find Jesus illogical, your grasp of simple logic alone shows how far you are from true logic. Your logic is one rife with errors taught you by those who despise religion.
     
  8. Sorry I have no idea what the heck you are on about!
     
  9. #29 Christ4Ever, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    @seekingsomething

    The Resurrection: Hoax or History

    Impact: The entirety of Christianity of who Jesus was/is falls on whether this happened or not. If it did not happen. Then Christianity would never have come into existence. Those very followers whose words you can read would have stayed defeated men mourning the death of their master on the Cross. It is the very belief in the resurrection that drove the Apostles from that moment forward. They were not following a dead man, but a Risen Christ.

    Rome/Israeli/Roman Soldier: Jerusalem occupied by the Nation of Rome. At the time the Roman soldier was the high end of the world militaries. Had a military protocol which required complete obedience or face death in many cases. You can research this if you'd like. Doesn't require the Bible to know that those guarding the tomb were the top end of their profession. Who in 70 AD would destroy Jerusalem, Temple and scatter the people of Israeli throughout the Roman Empire as slaves etc. The Jewish people would not come together as a nation for another 1,900 hundred years.

    Disciples: Of the 12 Apostles they were either fishermen, one tax collector, zealot and 6 unknown.

    Tomb/Sealed/Guarded: [Mat 27:57-66 ESV] 57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the tomb. 62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, "Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, 'After three days I will rise.' 64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last fraud will be worse than the first." 65 Pilate said to them, "You have a guard of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can." 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.

    Where the stolen body story originated from: That the body was stolen by disciples. The biblical/Jewish historical story is that the guard placed at the tomb had fallen asleep and that the body was stolen by Jesus' disciples. [Mat 28:13 ESV] 13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.'

    Argument against: The obvious one. Roman law required that anyone asleep at their post was to be put to death. Breaking a seal of Rome was against the law. Simple question while putting aside their dereliction of duty. If they were asleep. How did they know it was the disciples of Jesus that had stolen the body?

    Next, the great stone when moved would I'm sure have made some noise don't you think? Guards sleeping through that as well?

    If truly stolen by the disciples. Why were not the disciples arrested for the breaking of Roman Law? Prior to the resurrection they went into hiding. After the resurrection, they walked and preached in the streets. When they were arrested, it was not for the breaking of Roman Law or for the stealing of a body which was also against the law. Why were they arrested and released? For preaching!

    Those are a couple of questions you should ask yourself.

    Another one is. Why a search was never done to retrieve the body. Why not?Because they knew that the body had not been stolen, that is why!

    If you notice one thing about the Christian believer. We do not look for a tomb like Islam or any other religions, to go pay our respects to or pray to. Why? Our Lord and Savior is not Dead that we would need to. The Apostles gave ample evidence that He was alive. It was part of their ministry. They lived and died preaching a resurrected Christ.

    Put yourself in their position. Would logic tell you that if you had stolen the body, that whenever you preached a resurrected Christ. That it was a lie. Would your character (liar) or those of the Apostles be of the type that would have you die willingly for that lie?

    You have to ask yourself when you look at these men. What changed them from hiding which Jesus knew they would do. [Mat 26:31 ESV] 31 Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

    Even Peter who was considered the strongest of them all, tried to talk like he won't, but he also did.

    [Mat 26:33-35 ESV] 33 Peter answered him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away." 34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times." 35 Peter said to him, "Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!" And all the disciples said the same.

    [Mat 26:33-35, 69-75 ESV] 33 Peter answered him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away." 34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times." 35 Peter said to him, "Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!" And all the disciples said the same. ... 69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came up to him and said, "You also were with Jesus the Galilean." 70 But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean." 71 And when he went out to the entrance, another servant girl saw him, and she said to the bystanders, "This man was with Jesus of Nazareth." 72 And again he denied it with an oath: "I do not know the man." 73 After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, "Certainly you too are one of them, for your accent betrays you." 74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, "I do not know the man." And immediately the rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, "Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times." And he went out and wept bitterly.

    Does Peter or any of the others look like, keeping in mind that he was part of a people whose nation was occupied by the preeminent fighting force of that day. Seem like a Delta Force or Ninja type of people who would dare an operation against an efficient Roman Guard so they could preach a lie?

    Hopefully, logic would tell you no. People do strange things, but their behavior and actions are consistent with who they are.

    I could go on, with this, but hopefully you can see that you would have to create a greater fantasy narrative consistent with the times to make the stolen body theory work.

    I truly hope this answers your question without the supernatural parts on the stolen body theory.

    C4E

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  10. If it is Christianity that you seek, it is not a matter of empathy with to somehow find faith. Faith is a free gift of God, not of your own doing. You must believe and ask him in earnest and he will give you your own measure of Faith:
    Ephesians 2: 8-9
    Romans 12:3
     
  11. I have to be in tune with a belief system before I would consider embracing it.
     
  12. @seekingsomething
    You've used in tune a few times. What exactly does that mean to you?
     
  13. By in tune I mean something which appeals to me. So far the presentation on this forum is a bit of a turn off!
     
  14. @seekingsomething

    :laugh: For many people it is. Rarely does one have to look at self and realize that one is not perfect and two that the help of another is needed to achieve that perfection. Intellectually we might admit the first, but acknowledging the latter has a tendency to really tighten our jaws. Man has always wanted to believe that we can do the possible, and if given enough time, that we can also do the impossible as well.

    Christianity requires one to be honest with ones self. Not seeing yourself as you or others who are in the same boat as you see you. It's how God sees you. This is not something that most people or anyone that I've seen is ever comfortable with.

    If you're looking for what is appealing, then realize that you have to give it a try before you'll really know. Another analogy that I hope you don't take wrongly. Look at a lobster. I've always wondered who the first person was that decided to eat that critter. If one has never had it before, it sure won't be on the top of my foods to eat list at least by appearance. Yet, personally, I rather enjoy it. The same can probably be said for many things that we were forced to eat as children. Accepting what others believe is good for us is not an easy task. As you look further into Christianity, you will find this at times even more difficult, because you'll really start to see yourself as God see you.

    That is why for all believers. It is a process. One which requires the individual to first Cross the Bridge which is Jesus Christ (Belief/Life/Death/Resurrection) and then the continuing walk in Christ Jesus.

    Would love to talk/type more, but I'm at work and duty calls.
    C4E
    <><
     
  15. Goodness me I am far from perfect, I have never claimed otherwise, but I try to be good enough, which is all anyone can strive for. Perfection would be very hard to live with, imo.
     
  16. @seekingsomething

    You've hit the nail on the head! Perfect we are not!

    I'm sure you've seen/heard where people think that Christians walk around as if they're perfect. While the truth is that it's quite the opposite of what we believe. We've come to understand that perfect we are not and if perfection is achievable. We understand that we can't do it alone.

    With that understanding, we then look in a different light at what Jesus said in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    We are imperfect, lost, looking for a light switch in a darkened room. Through Jesus Christ, God provided a bridge, a way to follow that will light up the darkness we are currently in. A light that cannot be found in any other.

    You have stated that perfection would be very hard to live with. For which I agree. We'd have to first see it, understand it, and change before we can ever get there. We must first have the will or should I say the faith to step out to receive it. All the while knowing that we are not the best judge of how that is to happen. So placing our trust in one who does, which is the next hardest thing to do. Which is subordinate our will to God's.

    Lunch break. Now back to work.
    C4E
    <><
     
  17. Look, I have no expectations about you understanding this, but, for a true Christian, there is no such thing as "being in tune", you either are or your not having a relationship with the one true God. While you searching for the best religion for you, remember this, Christianity is the only religion by where the God promise to spiritually get inside you and have a personal relationship like no other religion!
     
  18. Are there such a things as a one true Christian, or one true god? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! I suspect if there is humans are not in communication with it!
     
  19. Yes and Yes. Just don't confuse Christian with Denomination, for which we have plenty! One true God and plenty of made of gods.

    As far as our communication with Him. Your suspicions that we are not, are based on what? I will add the caveat that you are correct "humans" in the generic sense are not in communication with HIm. However a segment of humanity is. That would be the believers in Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:
     
  20. You might BELIEVE that to be true, but you have no verifiable evidence that is a fact!
     

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