Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[spirit1st]

GOD is LOVE! that is the stand point we always look at GOD from!
Everything HE ever did was out of LOVE!

He knew who wanted truth and who would refuse to live in truth!

It all got to come from our heart which is our Spirit!
He is NO RESPECTER of persons! But He knows every thought in our Spirit!

What He sees different in one spirit or another ? I cannot say!
But it appears one wants truth and another wants darkness!

Why does one reject this free gift of eternal life and another accept it?

Why does one try to stop others from knowing the truth or planting doubt in there minds?

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

I held a baby one time that look up at me with the most loving eyes!
I held another baby a different time look up at me with the most hate I could have ever imagine that could come out of a little one.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Do we save ourselves?

Or does God save us?

Our choice or Gods power?

His blood or our actions?

If we ask God he will show us.


Is God just? Does God have wisdom? his motivation is his love for us! Is it his power that saves?
God knew that man would sin so to meet his justice for sin his Son Jesus died for the issue of sin for us. Its all of God. Nothing of you and I.

Maybe it should be asked, "Are you righteous?" if so how are you righteous?

 

[RJ]

Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

I held a baby one time that look up at me with the most loving eyes!
I held another baby a different time look up at me with the most hate I could have ever imagine that could come out of a little one.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Do we save ourselves?

Or does God save us?

Our choice or Gods power?

His blood or our actions?

If we ask God he will show us.


Is God just? Does God have wisdom? his motivation is his love for us! Is it his power that saves?
God knew that man would sin so to meet his justice for sin his Son Jesus died for the issue of sin for us. Its all of God. Nothing of you and I.

Maybe it should be asked, "Are you righteous?" if so how are you righteous?

Ofcourse none of us are capable of righteousnous, "no not one".

As Born-Again Christians, it is He, Jesus Christ that lives in us and imparts: His righteousness, His works, His Salvation and His Resurrection to us.

Thank God for His grace which is gift and free to all!

 

[Faith4Bride]

It seems to me that one of the problems with this issue for people is that i just dont think that we take seriously wickedness and sin.

We say that we take it seriously, but when we then think about God purposing only to save, or give mercy to some and to use others for destruction all of a sudden we believe everyone deserves their own " chance". That it would not be loving to just purpose some to never be saved, as if being saved is a right that all people should have.

This really is an issue with how seriously we consider the wickedness of our sins because if we truly believe that men are wicked. That every imagination of mens hearts is evil. That the carnal nature(which all men without christ are) cannot even be held to the law of God and cannot even understand spiritual things then we would understand that God can give mercy to whom ever he purposes and not give it to whomever he purposes because Not one person deserves it and the only reason for it at all is Gods purpose and plans. Something in our flesh so wants to believe that it wouldnt be " fair" if God gave bob a " chance" and not jan. As if jan deserves a " chance".

As far as God not being a respector of persons that is totally true, however it doesnt apply to this conversation at all. The reason it does not apply is that being a respector of persons means you look at certian people and favor them because of their good looks or money etc.. and then give them special status over others because you respect certain things about them. God does not do this- However election has nothing to do with God being a respector of persons for one reason.- No one is elect because God looked at their personal qualities or belongs and decided to favor them over the guy next door.- God makes it clear that election was based on His purposes and plan and will and that This was decided before the foundation of the world and it was not decided because of what those people would become on their own. But instead that God predestined those whom He chose to fulfill what He delcared they would fulfill and He built them to be whom He purposed them to be.

There is a large differnce between Looking into the future and saying " o i like kens silvery blue eyes, he is elect!"- (respector of persons) and God saying before the foundation of the world " i will make a man named ken, he will be called by me and saved, i will justify him and glorify him and i will make him to become comformed into the image of Jesus and i will even declare now what good works i will cause him to walk in for my purpose and glory ".( this is what God says He did)

So election has nothing to do with God being a respector of persons. The elect are only what they are by His ordaining it to be so, not because they of themselves are anything.

 

[rojoloco]

It seems to me that one of the problems with this issue for people is that i just dont think that we take seriously wickedness and sin.

We say that we take it seriously, but when we then think about God purposing only to save, or give mercy to some and to use others for destruction all of a sudden we believe everyone deserves their own " chance". That it would not be loving to just purpose some to never be saved, as if being saved is a right that all people should have.

This really is an issue with how seriously we consider the wickedness of our sins because if we truly believe that men are wicked. That every imagination of mens hearts is evil. That the carnal nature(which all men without christ are) cannot even be held to the law of God and cannot even understand spiritual things then we would understand that God can give mercy to whom ever he purposes and not give it to whomever he purposes because Not one person deserves it and the only reason for it at all is Gods purpose and plans. Something in our flesh so wants to believe that it wouldnt be " fair" if God gave bob a " chance" and not jan. As if jan deserves a " chance".

As far as God not being a respector of persons that is totally true, however it doesnt apply to this conversation at all. The reason it does not apply is that being a respector of persons means you look at certian people and favor them because of their good looks or money etc.. and then give them special status over others because you respect certain things about them. God does not do this- However election has nothing to do with God being a respector of persons for one reason.- No one is elect because God looked at their personal qualities or belongs and decided to favor them over the guy next door.- God makes it clear that election was based on His purposes and plan and will and that This was decided before the foundation of the world and it was not decided because of what those people would become on their own. But instead that God predestined those whom He chose to fulfill what He delcared they would fulfill and He built them to be whom He purposed them to be.

There is a large differnce between Looking into the future and saying " o i like kens silvery blue eyes, he is elect!"- (respector of persons) and God saying before the foundation of the world " i will make a man named ken, he will be called by me and saved, i will justify him and glorify him and i will make him to become comformed into the image of Jesus and i will even declare now what good works i will cause him to walk in for my purpose and glory ".( this is what God says He did)

So election has nothing to do with God being a respector of persons. The elect are only what they are by His ordaining it to be so, not because they of themselves are anything.

Amen, amen, amen!!!

 

[spirit1st]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

ITS CLEAR HE wants All mankind to accept HIM and HIS gospel! that they will be saved!

 

[rojoloco]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You are not the first to use this verse nor will you be the last. Unfortunately, all posters share one thing in common; a complete disregard of the definition of propitiation.

Propitiation is not merely something that makes atonement possible. It IS atonement. It is redemption. If Scripture said Christ can be the propitiation for the sins of every man and woman, you might have ground to stand on. As it is, it does not say this. It says Christ IS the propitiation. He IS the atonement. All of salvation rests in the atonement. The atonement justifies. The atonement redeems. The atonement satisfies all debt. This is why Christ said, "It is finished!" on the cross. The Greek word teleo refers to a monetary debt paid in full with no remaining balance. The atonement covered it all. Our debt is paid in full. This is why Scripture says he IS the propitiation for our sins.

To say that Christ redeems every man and woman on Earth is to say he is their Advocate. Well, Scripture also tells us that Christ is only the Advocate of those who are his. Since not every man and woman will be saved, we know the "whole world" is not referring to all of mankind without exception. John was saying that Christ is the propitiation for not only their local church but also for mankind as a whole. It is not for the whole of mankind (every man and woman) but rather every race and gender without distinction.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Again, all of mankind without distinction, not without exception. It was common belief that the Jews were the rightful heirs of Heaven. This was no longer the case and it was to be made known.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

WE. US. CHRISTIANS. Peter was writing to a very specific group of individuals. This is not universalizing atonement but rather, speaking of eternal security in Christ.

ITS CLEAR HE wants All mankind to accept HIM and HIS gospel! that they will be saved!

Really? I didn't see that in there at all. That is because your quote goes against the very fabric of Scripture.

As I always say, proponents of universal atonement limit it more than the Limited Atonement crowd can ever dream of doing. We limit it in availability whereas you limit in effectiveness. I say it fully saves and redeems whereas you say it does nothing more than make it possible for us to save ourselves.

 

[spirit1st]

He did not automatically save all mankind it very clear!
You seem to be saying , HE has!
I strongly disagree with you , if indeed that is what your saying!

This clearly shows many are going to the lake of fire!
You agree?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[rojoloco]

He did not automatically save all mankind it very clear!
You seem to be saying , HE has!
I strongly disagree with you , if indeed that is what your saying!

This clearly shows many are going to the lake of fire!
You agree?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I most certainly am not saying Christ saved every man and woman. In fact, I am not even saying he died for ever man and woman. It is the atonement that justifies and redeems. To say he died for all is to say the atonement is for all. To say the atonement is for the whole world is to say the atonement is ineffective and does not accomplish in full what it sets out to do...to reconcile, redeem, justify, save. I dare not degrade the atonement in such a way.

There are only 2 ways to claim the atonement is 100% efficient at what it does:

1) By claiming that it does not save anybody. This would allow people to say it is for the whole world but still leave salvation up to something else. Of course, this goes against everything in Scripture that teaches the atonement does not merely present a way to be saved but actually saves in full.

2) By limiting the availability of the atonement. We know people will go to Hell. We also know the atonement saves in full those whom it was meant for. The ONLY way to reconcile these 2 facts is to come to the conclusion (which is fully supported by Scripture) that the atonement was never meant for every man and woman.

The atonement secured salvation to the whole world without distinction (not without exception). Many will still go to Hell but the atonement was never meant for them. To all whom it was meant for, it is applied, and is 100% effective at accomplishing what it sets out to do...to save.

 

[spirit1st]

WE MUST accept the Work He did! Its All by FAITH and HE puts the faith in us to be able to accept it!
But something happens to some? They lose there faith !

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

We use our FAITH to follow HIm or we reject Him and our faith dies!

WE decide , Do we want to give ourselves to HIm or Live for ourselves! Which is Never for ourselves!
We Never live for ourselves only!

 

[Boanerges]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

ITS CLEAR HE wants All mankind to accept HIM and HIS gospel! that they will be saved!

Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! And of course Amen!:shade:

 

[Boanerges]

It seems to me that one of the problems with this issue for people is that i just dont think that we take seriously wickedness and sin.

Honestly, I believe it is more of a problem with people underestimating the power of His grace and His ability to reach a lost soul.

 

[rojoloco]

WE MUST accept the Work He did! Its All by FAITH and HE puts the faith in us to be able to accept it!
But something happens to some? They lose there faith !

Actually, Scripture is quite clear that nobody who has saving faith ever loses it.

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It says that people who "lose" it never really had it to begin with. Now, to move on to the references you listed:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You are correct that every man is given a measure of faith. However, take note that Paul is clearly speaking to Christians in that passage. He is clearly telling them that they have no reason to think highly of themselves over another individual because it is God alone that caused it all to be. If anything, this is support for what I have been saying all along...that man plays no part in his salvation. It is solely from God.

Also, take note that it refers to a measure of faith. This goes along with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12 where he speaks of faith being a spiritual gift. While all Christians have the same level of saving faith, some are gifted with the exceptional ability to trust God in faith even in the most difficult of circumstances. No man is more saved than another as it is all by the blood of Christ alone; the atonement that is 100% effective for all whom it was intended, the Elect.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This is saving faith. Not all men have faith. This is because God does not give faith to all men. For all the atonement was intended, saving faith is there.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

This really has nothing to do with limited atonement but rather, an inability to be saved by works of the Law. It does have to do with the atonement in agreeing that it is the atonement alone which saves.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Which means one must be regenerated in the Spirit before they can please God...which means one must abide in Christ before they can please God...which means God changes an individual even though we did nothing for it...which means we cannot choose Him until we are already regenerated.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Romans speaks of these people as well. They are considered to be the type that know the word but they do not cling to it. They have the head knowledge but not the life saving faith. The love of God was only meant to be shared in with His Elect. His Elect were the only planned recipients of the atonement; the atonement that is finished and can never again be repeated. Everything it set out to do, it already did.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And those who have saving faith will abide with God forever. If they leave, it was to show they never had it to begin with and they were never really of God.

We use our FAITH to follow HIm or we reject Him and our faith dies!

Negative. We do not use our faith to follow Him. Our faith compels us to follow Him. If we do not follow Him, it is not that we have lost our faith. It is that we never really had it to begin with and it was only a matter of time before we fell off the bandwagon. I trust Scripture when it says I have eternal life. What good is eternal life if it is constantly being revoked. That is more like a repetitive supply of temporary life. For those who abide in Christ with saving faith, washed by the atonement, they will persevere until the end. If they don't, it was because they never really had it.

WE decide , Do we want to give ourselves to HIm or Live for ourselves! Which is Never for ourselves!
We Never live for ourselves only!

Remember, you were the one to post the verse saying we can do nothing in the flesh to please God. Do you assume the regenerate man is not synonymous with the saved man? If we cannot please God in our flesh, it means we have to die to self and become a new creature in Christ first. Beforehand, it is impossible to please God. Do you not think it pleases Him to see us rise in Christ? It is an impossibility to choose God if Scripture says we can do nothing to please Him without first being regenerated and of Christ. We cannot be regenerated and of Christ unless we are already saved. Hence, we must be chosen by God, regenerated by God, and given saving faith by God. Only then does the possibility open up for us to do things of God and please Him.

 

[rojoloco]

Honestly, I believe it is more of a problem with people underestimating the power of His grace and His ability to reach a lost soul.

Actually, I find the Universal Atonement crowd actually demotes Jesus in his ability more so than the Limited Atonement crowd. The limited atonement crowd says everybody whom Christ sets out to save WILL be saved.

The Universal Atonement crowd says Christ tries to save everybody but fails miserably countless times a day because:

1) people are more powerful than him and reject him
2) his atonement does not save
3) his atonement is inefficient
4) his atonement is insufficient

I find all 4 of those to be blasphemous to be honest. I admit it is by the grace of God alone and that all He sets out to save will be saved. He has no inability to save a lost soul. The inability lies with me was unable to add any part to my salvation whatsoever and was saved by a merciful God who chose me not based on anything within this wretched being. As a result, I have been justified by the blood of Christ...by His grace alone.

 

[Boanerges]

Actually, I find the Universal Atonement crowd actually demotes Jesus in his ability more so than the Limited Atonement crowd.

Hi Rojo!


That is an obvious misconception and since the bible plainly declares He died for the sins of the whole world you my brother find yourself pitting your theology against the Word of God.
The any mans, the all whos, the whole worlds, the if anys are simply to predominant to be discarded.
If your theology merits discarding scripture than my friend it is not the Bible who is in error.
By the grace of God He has given me a theology that embraces choice as well as predestination precluding the need for a pair of scissors to make that doctrine work.

2Co 5:14 ForG1063 theG3588 loveG26 of ChristG5547 constrainethG4912 us;G2248 because we thusG5124 judge,G2919 thatG3754 ifG1487 oneG1520 diedG599 forG5228 all,G3956 thenG686 were all dead:G599 G3956

All were dead in sin. One (Christ) died for all. That is the Word of God.
Many blessings in His Name,
your bother Larry.

 

[Hekuran]

Boanerges makes the point well.

Next time you need to preach an evangelistic sermon try this:

God loves (some of) you!
He sent his son Christ Jesus to die on the cross for (some) people's sins!
Jesus said: come to me all (but not quite everybody) who are burdened and I will give you rest...

I could give you the rest of the sermon, but honestly you won't need it. Your audience will have moved on by sentence three.

Forgiveness and reconciliation with God are offered to all without exception. Not all of us choose to take up the offer.

The heart of the problem is the question of how a sovereign and good God will allow anybody to perish.

There are many of ways to go about answering this, some more sophisticated than others.

Limited atonement is a tidy solution. Unfortunately it is not a biblical one.

 

[rojoloco]

That is an obvious misconception and since the bible plainly declares He died for the sins of the whole world you my brother find yourself pitting your theology against the Word of God.

I have already stated countless times the proper context of "whole world" in my previous posts. Under your interpretation you are compelled to admit:

a) The whole world will be saved
b) The atonement doesn't save anybody but only allows us to save ourselves.

The any mans, the all whos, the whole worlds, the if anys are simply to predominant to be discarded.

If your theology merits discarding scripture than my friend it is not the Bible who is in error.[/quote]

I see nobody discarding them. I only see one side refusing to see what it refers to. The word "heavens" has many meanings in Scripture. Would you argue that it can only refer to Heaven? The word "man" has many meanings in Scripture. Would you argue that it can only refer to the male gender? I'm guessing your answer is a resounding no. Why then do you limit the meaning of "world" to one definition when it is clearly used throughout Scripture in many different way. If Scripture says God loved the world but it also says he hates specific people, your entire theory is blown out of the water. If God loved the made a way for the whole world to be saved but we clearly see people going to Hell, your who theory is blown. Universal Atonement is a blasphemous claim and as I already stated, it was condemned as apostasy in the 1500's. Are you even aware of the historic roots of your belief?

By the grace of God He has given me a theology that embraces choice as well as predestination precluding the need for a pair of scissors to make that doctrine work.

I have challenged you to point out one verse where it says God has given man the ability to choose. You still have not complied. All you have posted are verses telling people to choose whereas I replied with the 10 commandments ordering equally as impossible things. The difference is that I actually provided a verse that showed the 10 commandments only existed to show the impossibility to do it of our own and to show our need for God. Somehow, you couldn't provide something similar and instead, stuck with your same verses and nowhere to go from there.

2Co 5:14 ForG1063 theG3588 loveG26 of ChristG5547 constrainethG4912 us;G2248 because we thusG5124 judge,G2919 thatG3754 ifG1487 oneG1520 diedG599 forG5228 all,G3956 thenG686 were all dead:G599 G3956

All were dead in sin. One (Christ) died for all. That is the Word of God.
Many blessings in His Name,
your bother Larry.

He died for all the Elect. Again Scripture relates the atonement as having fulfilled a few things:

1) justification
2) full payment of debt
3) redemption

Your doctrine refuses it all of these things. I would love to hear your response to this latter part more so than any of the other ground (the same routine between us) that always leads to thread locking though.

 

[rojoloco]

Boanerges makes the point well.

Next time you need to preach an evangelistic sermon try this:

God loves (some of) you!
He sent his son Christ Jesus to die on the cross for (some) people's sins!
Jesus said: come to me all (but not quite everybody) who are burdened and I will give you rest...

I could give you the rest of the sermon, but honestly you won't need it. Your audience will have moved on by sentence three.

You are forgetting a very important aspect here. Milk & meat. Mature Christians know we have Christian liberty. However, we are not even supposed to broach the subject of "eating meat" around immature Christians if it would cause us to be a stumbling block to them. Just because we do not teach it around immature Christians, does it make it any less true? Does the doctrine of Christian liberty no longer fit your mold simply because it is only for the mature Christian? Do you condemn it as false? The 5 points of Calvinism are not meant to be evangelical tools. They are the depths of God that are plain in Scripture but are not meant for evangelizing to the new or weak Christian. This does not make them false.

Forgiveness and reconciliation with God are offered to all without exception. Not all of us choose to take up the offer.

Yet Scripture does not say the atonement WILL reconcile. It says it ALREADY DID reconcile. It is described in the past tense. Atonement is not a door to possibilities. It is a redeeming act that has already been committed. "Redemption: Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray written in 1955 is a great book on the subject.

The heart of the problem is the question of how a sovereign and good God will allow anybody to perish.

There are many of ways to go about answering this, some more sophisticated than others.

Limited atonement is a tidy solution. Unfortunately it is not a biblical one.

Yet I have provided more than enough Scripture that shows how it is entirely Biblical. Not only have I provided more than enough of my own, I have shown how the Scripture provided by the Universal Atonement crowd is actually in favor of Limited Atonement and condemns the doctrine it is meant to support.

 

[spirit1st]

He paid the price for ALL mankind , Making it possible for all to be BORN -AGAIN! it is up to us to reject or accept!

FEW are willing to accept HIM as LORD!

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.



MANY are CALLED to be SAVED , few are willing to be saved!
Salvation is simple and its free to all willing!


1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

HE gave us all enough faith to be saved if we want too! I wanted too.

 

[RJ]

[QUOTE=rojoloco;153405]I most certainly am not saying Christ saved every man and woman. In fact, I am not even saying he died for ever man and woman. It is the atonement that justifies and redeems. To say he died for all is to say the atonement is for all. To say the atonement is for the whole world is to say the atonement is ineffective and does not accomplish in full what it sets out to do...to reconcile, redeem, justify, save. I dare not degrade the atonement in such a way.

There are only 2 ways to claim the atonement is 100% efficient at what it does:

1) By claiming that it does not save anybody. This would allow people to say it is for the whole world but still leave salvation up to something else.QUOTE=rojoloco; Of course, this goes against everything in Scripture that teaches the atonement does not merely present a way to be saved but actually saves in full.

2) By limiting the availability of the atonement. We know people will go to Hell. We also know the atonement saves in full those whom it was meant for. The ONLY way to reconcile these 2 facts is to come to the conclusion (which is fully supported by Scripture) that the atonement was never meant for every man and woman.

The atonement secured salvation to the whole world without distinction (not without exception). Many will still go to Hell but the atonement was never meant for them. To all whom it was meant for, it is applied, and is 100% effective at accomplishing what it sets out to do...to save.[/QUOTE]


Rojoloco:

QUOTE=rojoloco;153405]I most certainly am not saying Christ saved every man and woman. In fact, I am not even saying he died for ever man and woman. It is the atonement that justifies and redeems. To say he died for all is to say the atonement is for all.

You have atonement and salvation mixed-up or confused.

Atonement, ofcourse, originated in the Old Testament. This was a once a year event that covered over sins, had nothing to do with salvation.
Atonement was for, covering over of sins and not actually forgivess, much less salvation. God was still looking at their sins daily.
There was no chairs in the temple, signifying that the High Priest could not sit down because his work was never finished.

Jesus died and, didn't just cover over but "took away sins" forever, and God said he would look at them no more. And then, Jesus sat down for all times.
This issued in the New Covenant and every person born into this covenant was forgiven already, a precusor to but not salvation.

<SUP id=en-NIV-30130 class=versenum>12</SUP>But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:12

<SUP id=en-NIV-30076 class=versenum>27</SUP>Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. Hebrew 7:27

We need to focus on the fact that God has forever settled the sin issue. Before Christ, men’s sins separated them from God. Christ was the only solution to this dilemma. Then, when He hung on the cross and said “It is finished!”, He meant it is finished! God has bridged the gap between Himself and man through His Son. He took care of the sin thing through total forgiveness.

“All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them… God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God “(2 Corinthians 5:18,19,21).

<SUP id=en-NIV-30427 class=versenum>18</SUP>For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:18

<SUP id=en-NIV-30089 class=versenum>12</SUP>For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more. Hebrews 8:12<SUP> </SUP>






QUOTE=rojoloco;Of course, this goes against everything in Scripture that teaches the atonement does not merely present a way to be saved but actually saves in full.

1. Please show me where in scripture that it says that the cross took care of both our sins and salvation. Our sins were forgiven the very millesecond that Jesus died on the cross, long before the resurrection.
2. If Jesus death ( at the cross) saves in full, what need is there of the resurrection?

<SUP id=en-NIV-26538 class=versenum>25</SUP>Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; John 11:25

<SUP id=en-NIV-30362 class=versenum>3</SUP>Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3

The cross forgives but in itself can not save.
Once your sins are cleared away, it is your faith (belief) in and the recieving of Jesus Christ's resurrected life that gives you a "New Birth" and salvation.


The cross and forgiveness is for all my friend.

The cross is a tree and a dead man named Jesus, it can not give life.


Eternal life comes by way of the cross but it is recieved through the living resurrection of a living man named Jesus Christ our Lord.

Both through the Cross and then by the Resurrection are you saved.


QUOTE=rojoloco;Of course, this goes against everything in Scripture that teaches the atonement does not merely present a way to be saved but actually saves in full. Since attonement ( at the cross) deals with sins and has nothing to do with the Resurrection, please show scriptural support for you saying that atonement saves in full.

The cross, the death and the resurrection of Jeus Christ is God's New Covenant, a gift.


Anything elser is stuck in the Old Testament "Law".