Question regarding Commands of Jesus

[amadeus2]

If you read the Bible and keep Jesus’ commands, you are a child of God. If you do not read the Bible but still keep Jesus’ commands, you are a child of God, by sincerity.

The verse that leads me to believe that, is this::
Romans 2:14-15
“14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Agreed!

This is one reason a person should be very slow about rendering a final judgment against another simply because the other is not connected to any established organized church group carrying a Christian designation. Some will too quickly state that a Mormon, or a JW or a Catholic or even a Muslim is already lost because of their connection to such a group. What God looks at, always, is the heart of the person. Sitting in the supposedly "right" pew will give us no brownie points in God's book any more than sitting in the supposedly "wrong" pew will condemn us.

 

[Lily Miller]

I hope you don't weary of my questions but I am truly trying to understand where you are coming from... I may be misunderstanding you but is this what you are saying?

We choose to repent (forsake our sin) and follow Christ completely. God sees our heart and our obedience in repentance and judges us according to that. As we listen to the Spirit telling us what to do (follow Jesus' commands) this is being born again. We become a Child of God by obeying and continuing in sincere obedience, whether we have read the Bible or not.

Forsake meaning: abandon, you leave it behind. You have to leave your sin behind, every last thing. I do agree with you. I think these are the requirements to be "born again" and to listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sue D.]

There is nothing wrong with works, you believe that Jesus died and rose again right? That's a work. I am not saying works are bad I just don't believe that you get into heaven by just doing works, you have to have faith and sincerity as well.

The Holy Spirit guides us to what Jesus taught, as I have said so many times on this thread.

What exactly are saying is a 'work'? That our believing what Jesus Christ did on the cross is a 'work' on our part. That a person's believing is a 'work'? Or that Jesus Christ's death and bodily resurrection were a 'work'?! If I'm understanding your correctly, then no one will ever be able to get to heaven -- because believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth -- Is our salvation. And you're saying that That is a 'work'.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, not of yourself , it is a gift of God -- not of works, lest any man should boast."

People can be very sincere about their beliefs and be very wrong. I could name a few Middle-eastern belief systems that are sincerely believed by their followers but they are very Wrong.

 

[Chad4Him]

Forsake meaning: abandon, you leave it behind. You have to leave your sin behind, every last thing. I do agree with you. I think these are the requirements to be "born again" and to listen to the Holy Spirit.

Lily, to me, what this sounds like is... if I make the right decisions, and do enough works of righteousness and obedience, God will approve of me and I will essentially make myself "born again" by strict obedience.

I am afraid that is not enough. We must be made a completely new creature in Him by a supernatural work of grace - we cannot merit his favor by obedience or ever expect that if we follow his commands closely enough (without this new heart traded for our old one with its sinful desires) he will accept us. Rather, we must admit that we are unworthy sinners incapable of being good enough to be His Child, and accept the covering of Jesus' blood when we repent of our sins.

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I've been trying to ask questions in different ways, giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping to hear something from you that would tell me you believe that salvation is a work of God, but your answers (so far) unfortunately don't convince me of this but rather leave me with the feeling that we "earn" His favor by good deeds. You have mentioned the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice etc. but it almost seems an afterthought or something of little importance. Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding you.

 

[Lily Miller]

Lily, to me, what this sounds like is... if I make the right decisions, and do enough works of righteousness and obedience, God will approve of me and I will essentially make myself "born again" by strict obedience.

I am afraid that is not enough. We must be made a completely new creature in Him by a supernatural work of grace - we cannot merit his favor by obedience or ever expect that if we follow his commands closely enough (without this new heart traded for our old one with its sinful desires) he will accept us. Rather, we must admit that we are unworthy sinners incapable of being good enough to be His Child, and accept the covering of Jesus' blood when we repent of our sins.

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I've been trying to ask questions in different ways, giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping to hear something from you that would tell me you believe that salvation is a work of God, but your answers (so far) unfortunately don't convince me of this but rather leave me with the feeling that we "earn" His favor by good deeds. You have mentioned the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice etc. but it almost seems an afterthought or something of little importance. Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding you.

"I am not saying works of righteousness", I am saying listen to Jesus. That is not "works of righteousness" it's what we are supposed to do. I am glad that you have been trying to look at it from my point of view; but please at least try to read the Bible like you have never read it before, and take Jesus literally, don't try to find loop holes. We are supposed to come to him like little children, that is all we are trying to do. I am not out here to condemn anyone or make anyone feel any sort of way, I am just trying to get others to listen to Jesus because that is what it is all about. Not whether or not working our way to heaven is bad, (which I feel this was brought on by misinterpretation of scripture) or whether we are judged based off of accept Jesus in our heart or just simply believing in Him. I am just trying to get people to listen to him because that is what we will be judged by. Just some food for thought.

I hope you have a blessed day brother, may God be with you in your walk to listen and follow Christ.

Peace and Blessings, Lilian

 

[Chad4Him]

"I am not saying works of righteousness", I am saying listen to Jesus. That is not "works of righteousness" it's what we are supposed to do. I am glad that you have been trying to look at it from my point of view; but please at least try to read the Bible like you have never read it before, and take Jesus literally, don't try to find loop holes. We are supposed to come to him like little children, that is all we are trying to do. I am not out here to condemn anyone or make anyone feel any sort of way, I am just trying to get others to listen to Jesus because that is what it is all about. Not whether or not working our way to heaven is bad, (which I feel this was brought on by misinterpretation of scripture) or whether we are judged based off of accept Jesus in our heart or just simply believing in Him. I am just trying to get people to listen to him because that is what we will be judged by. Just some food for thought.

I hope you have a blessed day brother, may God be with you in your walk to listen and follow Christ.

Peace and Blessings, Lilian

Thanks Lilian :smile:

I do agree that Jesus is what it is all about, and that many Christians (including myself) do need to take a more serious look at His teachings.

Blessings to you,
Chad

 

[Sue D.]

Chad -- I'm getting the impression that Lily Miller is suggesting that anyone who really takes time to read Scripture Literally, will come up with the same understand that she does. She believes that if a person does what Jesus did -- and follow what He did -- that That's what's important. And, yes, she side-steps the death / bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ as if it's of less importance that following His words/ actions. Which amounts to a works-based salvation.

If all that was Really important was following Jesus Christ' example of works and deeds -- then there would have been no need For His death and bodily resurrection to take care of our sins.

 

[regibassman57]

@Chad4Him,

But while works are very important, I wonder if you are putting the cart before the horse and putting salvation in works, when rather we are saved by faith when we recognize we are unworthy sinners who cannot merit salvation by any good works, and this causes us to repent of our sins, come to Christ, and follow Him in obedience.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I just happen to come across your post #17. I agree Chad that we as believers are not saved by our works, but it seems you have used Ephesians 2:8 out of context. The context is about being saved from sin and not saved unto Eternal Life. Starting at verse "one" the context is about sin, and it's "impossible" for any person to be obedient in any form (not even once) when it comes to saving themselves in obedience from sin. But a person can learn to obey Jesus Christ unto Eternal Salvathrough their works.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, Jesus became the author of "ETERNAL SALVATION" unto all them that obey him;

You said a person could not merit salvation, (which I'm sure you're taking about Eternal Life), which is salvation of Life. Scripture teaches on the contrary. Most people miss this verse because the context is about marriage and men being as angels in Heaven. This verse is clearly teaching Eternal Life. Being accounted worthy to receive the resurrection from the dead is when Christ comes to rapture His Church (Mat. 13: 40-42). Being "ACCOUNTED WORTHY" teaches a believer must do something to obtain this resurrection.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be "accounted worthy" to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

G2661 (accounted worthy)
καταξιόω [KATACIO/W] {kataxióō} \kat-ax-ee-o'-o\
from 2596 and 515; to deem entirely deserving:--(ac-)count worthy.

Luke 21:36
Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be "accounted worthy" to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This is teaching the tribulation that will come upon the earth. If we are standing before The Lord, we have escaped the tribulation. This next scripture teaches you must work to please God. If we don't, we will be here for the tribulation that is coming upon this world.

Colossians 1:10
That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

G514 (worthy)
ἄξιος [A)/CIOS] {áxios} \ax'-ee-os\
probably from 71; deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise):--due reward, meet, (un-)worthy.

As far as being judged by following Jesus' commands at the judgement - This is a bit of a mystery to me but the way I believe is that true Christians will have good works. We will be judged by our works (the deeds we have done will either prove our salvation, or prove that we were sinners or false Christians - we will have no excuse). However this is not what saves us... even if we spent every minute doing good, without the unmerited blood of Christ covering us when we believe in Him, we will not be saved.

I agree partly... You will be condemned by what you do through faith or what you don't do in unbelief. Every example in Matthew 25 is about believers or the Church of Christ. They are left because of their works or received by Christ because of their works.

 

[Chad4Him]

@Chad4Him,


I just happen to come across your post #17. I agree Chad that we as believers are not saved by our works, but it seems you have used Ephesians 2:8 out of context. The context is about being saved from sin and not saved unto Eternal Life. Starting at verse "one" the context is about sin, and it's "impossible" for any person to be obedient in any form (not even once) when it comes to saving themselves in obedience from sin.

There is a lot to go into in your post and will need more time to fully get into it but to just look at the preceding verses:

Eph2:4 Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

"Made us alive together with Christ" I believe means being saved unto Eternal life. I believe when we are born again (or whatever term you wish to use) we are saved unto Eternal life and saved from sin.

 

[regibassman57]

@Chad4Him,

There is a lot to go into in your post and will need more time to fully get into it but to just look at the preceding verses:

Eph2:4 Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

"Made us alive together with Christ" I believe means being saved unto Eternal life. I believe when we are born again (or whatever term you wish to use) we are saved unto Eternal life and saved from sin.

Yes I agree... Once we become born again the "first" thing that happens is our sins are purged - past, present and future (Heb. 1:3; 10:11, 12, 14; 1Joh. 1:9). The reason those under the first covenant could not have Eternal Life is because of sin. Sin had to be removed before any man could have Eternal life. The order matters; this is why the context is about sin in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Verse 5 teaches when we were "DEAD IN SIN" we were made alive by faith only. The thorough understanding is taught through Abraham's experience. Abraham believed God for the promise that God would make him a father of many nations (Gen. 15:3-6). Because Abraham believed by faith alone for the promise, he was forgiven of his sins and God did not impute sins unto Abraham (Rom. 4:1-8). Abraham could not do any works to be forgiven of sins, but he had to work to receive the promise (Jam. 2:20-24). As a matter of fact - Abraham didn't know God was going to forgive him of his sins because it was never discussed. This is another reason we know a man cannot work for salvation from sin. But we know a man can be obedient to the commandments of Jesus as Hebrews 5:9 requires. If a man could not obey Christ, He would not have told us to (1Cor. 10:13). Abraham had to be proven before he could obtain the promise. The promise of a son was also the promise of Jesus Christ and through Christ came eternal life. It was through Abraham's works that his faith was proven to be true and not by faith alone. Scripture teaches that our faith as believers must also be proven (1Pet. 1:7; 4:12; Jam. 1:2-4). Believers also must walk in the steps of Abraham our father according to scripture (Rom. 4:12).

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
Galatians 6:8
For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

G4160 (doing) Galatians 6:9
ποιέω [POIE/W] {poiéō} \poy-eh'-o\
apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):--abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do(-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare 4238.

These scriptures are teaching a believer must "continue" in their "good works" to obtain Eternal Life without giving up.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient "continuance in well doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

G2041 (doing) Romans 2:7
ἔργον [E)/RGON] {érgon} \er'-gon\
from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω [E)/RGW] {érgō} (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Just a little something something I was moved to share.

If you don't start at the Cross, all you have left is the Law.

 

[Dovegiven]

Chad -- I'm getting the impression that Lily Miller is suggesting that anyone who really takes time to read Scripture Literally, will come up with the same understand that she does. She believes that if a person does what Jesus did -- and follow what He did -- that That's what's important. And, yes, she side-steps the death / bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ as if it's of less importance that following His words/ actions. Which amounts to a works-based salvation.

If all that was Really important was following Jesus Christ' example of works and deeds -- then there would have been no need For His death and bodily resurrection to take care of our sins.

A first work for the saved is to follow Jesus in water baptism publicly signifying we died to sin, reckon ourselves buried with Him, and risen free from the Law and the curses unto eternal life. From then on it's important to focus on the meat rather than staying with the milk bottle.
Hebrews 5:12-14 (KJV)
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So what is the meat I believe Lily spoke of?
2 Peter 1:5-7 (KJV)
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

It doesn't say to put the milk as one's main course at God's table. Take up the Kingdom of Heaven diet.

 

[regibassman57]

@Christ4Ever,

Just a little something something I was moved to share.

If you don't start at the Cross, all you have left is the Law.

I agree with you - but help me understand, isn't it true that by the law is the knowledge of sin? Isn't it true the only way a person can sin is by the law? So if this is true, then the only way a believer who confesses they sin - can only do so by the law. Would you agree with this? What did Jesus accomplish at the cross?

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are "UNDER" the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Galatians 3:25
But after that faith/Jesus Christ is come, we are no longer "UNDER" a schoolmaster (the law).

God has not taken the law away, but He has crucified the power of the law, in Christ, after He fulfilled it. No man is Under/Justified by the law. The law is good if a man uses it lawfully in the way Christ means for it to be used. The law is not used to dictate sin or condemn man.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Sin no longer has dominion over a believer because we are not "UNDER/JUSTIFIED by the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not "UNDER" the law, but "UNDER" grace.

Any man that sins is putting themselves under the law; and sin has dominion over them because they sin. Any man that sins has faith in what the law tells them as Romans 3:19 teaches.

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them.

 

[Dovegiven]

@Christ4Ever,
I agree with you - but help me understand, isn't it true that by the law is the knowledge of sin? Isn't it true the only way a person can sin is by the law? So if this is true, then the only way a believer who confesses they sin - can only do so by the law. Would you agree with this? What did Jesus accomplish at the cross?

Romans 14:23 (KJV)
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul was using an example of that vital principle, the case of risking the loss of a neighbor's soul while taking all your luxuries of freedom in Christ. Nowadays that would extend to not deliberately offending a Muslim by ordering a BBQ pork sandwich at his table. That would violate many other Christian principles, and therefore be sin, whether the Christian had any knowledge of the Law. Knowledge of The Law sufficient to avoid sin obviously isn't sufficient to lead to salvation in Christ. He died to that law before anyone could go to the Father by Him. None are required to study it or keep looking back at it, but to keep looking up the path Jesus took away from it to the higher one of love, not fearing what kept the Jews in bondage, servitude to the Law.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

Romans 14:23 (KJV)
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul was using an example of that vital principle, the case of risking the loss of a neighbor's soul while taking all your luxuries of freedom in Christ. Nowadays that would extend to not deliberately offending a Muslim by ordering a BBQ pork sandwich at his table. That would violate many other Christian principles, and therefore be sin, whether the Christian had any knowledge of the Law. Knowledge of The Law sufficient to avoid sin obviously isn't sufficient to lead to salvation in Christ. He died to that law before anyone could go to the Father by Him. None are required to study it or keep looking back at it, but to keep looking up the path Jesus took away from it to the higher one of love, not fearing what kept the Jews in bondage, servitude to the Law.

The vital principle is - by the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20; 1Joh. 3:4; Jam. 2:9). Each of these scriptures speak on the vital principle of sin. Another vital principle is the law is not of faith (Gal. 3:12). The scripture you used in Romans 14:23 is not speaking about sin as a verb, but the act of Satan as a noun working through a believer. This is also what Romans 6:16 is teaching.

Romans 6:16
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin (Satan) unto death, or of obedience (faith in Christ) unto righteousness?

Romans 6:22 confirms this fact. Paul assured these people he was thankful because they are no longer serving Satan but are now serving Christ. This also was talking about "sin" as a noun and not as a verb.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that you "WERE" the servants of sin (Satan), but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

These repented and became born again and are now (at that time) serving Christ.

Romans 6:18
Being then "made free from sin," you became the servants of righteousness (God).

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become "servants to God," you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Again, the law is not of faith and the only way a person can sin is by the law. But a believer is not "UNDER" the law - so "HOW" can they sin? It is only by the law is the knowledge of sin. A vital pronciple. This is how we know it's not talking about sin as a verb but as a noun. If it was sin by the law then Romans 6:23; 16; James 1:15 and Romans 7:5 would all apply.

 

[Hiswillbedone]

I am encouraged by how this conversation is progressing. It seems @Chad4Him you are able to see the need to do good works as a fruit of being saved. That is good. However, there still seems to be some disconnect with regards to works connecting to salvation. I will elaborate.

The main argument against not wanting to do good works is because there is no amount of good works that can save us. This I believe is true. But, and listen closely to this, just because works doesn't save us, that doesn't justify us not trying to obey Jesus and do good works. I think this is the main issue that people are fighting against (at least the side that is arguing disobeying Jesus because He did it all for us on the cross).

This teaching that obeying Jesus, doing good works, following the commands, or whatever you want to call it, is somehow seen as "working your way to heaven" breeds lawlessness (disobedience) to Jesus. As Jesus teaches, we will know a good tree by their fruit's (7:15-20). By objectively looking at the fruit of this teaching, I can confidently say that this teaching produces bad fruit because it causes us to find every justification to not obey Jesus, and obey anybody else except Jesus.

I will give the authenticity of this claim right now, and those reading this (and those in the future) will be able to see how Jesus' words really are sharper than any two edged sword.

I will just give one teaching of Jesus, and then I will finish it by saying, "okay, this is what Jesus says we must do, so let's do it."
Matthew 6:24, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Okay, can we the lesson? Yes? Good. Now obey it because Jesus said to. If you can't see the lesson, then I will explain.

Jesus is giving us an ultimatum; either we serve (work) for God, or we serve (work) for money. We CANNOT do both. Practically speaking, if anybody is working for money, then they are not serving God. Pretty simple, eh?

Oh I can hear the keys being pressed from all the way over here of people writing to tell me, "NOOOO. Jesus didn't mean to stop working for money. I know that's what it says but He means something else." Slow down a bit and continue reading, please? I know the first place people will turn to is 2 Thessolonians 3:10," Paul says that anyone who does not work should not eat!" See paul worked for money so that means I can! Pause. Is Paul the one you are following? Did Paul die for you, or did Jesus? Second, Paul never said that peole should work for money. Read it again. Money is not included. Why did you insert that word? "Well what did He mean by work then?" Good question! Simple. People lived together 24/7 in Christian community (Acts 2:34-35). People at that time were probably joining just for the free ride, free food, nice people, not because of their love for Jesus. So, Paul wanted the leaders to challenge those people to help out and carry their own weight. If they started helping out, then great! If they didn't, then they wouldn't eat. This would cuase these people to leave, since that is why they were following the group anyways (i.e., for the free food). Similar to the crowd Jesus rebuked for following him only for the bread, not because of Jesus. Does that make sense?

Ahhh, but Paul was a tentmaker I can hear you say? Yes, Yes he was. Did he make any money for it? Hmmm... If he did, then he was disobeying Jesus and started to work for money. Paul backslid. IMPOSSIBLE I hear you say. Well, no. Not really. Paul was human. He is fallible, so it makes sense that he would make mistakes. Well don't take my word for it, look at how he reacted once Timothy came to visit him at His little "tent business".

Acts 18," So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
(Notice what happens here) When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit." Pause. What compelled Paul in the spirit? Why did the presence of Timothy and Silas suddenly get Paul to go and preach to the Jews in a way that caused them to accuse him of blaspheme? IF Paul was 'reasoning' with them through the scriptures on the Sabbath before Timothy came, then he would have been kicked out long time ago." It continues, "and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. " If he was preaching that Jesus was the Christ from the beginning, then why did they suddenly get offended? Is it possible Paul compromised a bit so he wouldn't get sent out, so you can stay at his little tent making business? Is the picture becoming more clear how Paul backslid when he started making tents? (Will this justification work on God when we stand before Him and He asks us," What did we do with His Son's teachings?" And we reply, "well Paul was a tentmaker so I felt it was okay to disobey your son's command about working for money." Remember, by our words we are justified, and by ouor words we will be condemned) Furthermore when Timothy came, Paul realized he was doing the wrong thing, stopped, and went to proclaim the true gospel. Notice it doesn't say he went back to working on tents, does it? He left and continued his work that he left off when he backslid.

I know there are other bible writers that talks about working for money is a good thing and that God wants us all to prosper. I don't really want to go through every one, I just brought these two up because I know they are the ones going through people's mind as they read Jesus' teaching about quitting our jobs for Him.

The main questions that has to be asked is this, "are those other Bible writers the Word of God (NOTE: The Bible is NOT the Word of God. Shocking I know. Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1 & Revelation 19:13). If I have to choose who I will listen too, then I will go with Jesus everytime. Who will you side with?) Did the other bible writers die for you? The most important one: Why am I trying so hard to find ways not to obey what Jesus taught us to do?

I pray God will open the eyes and hearts of everyone that reads this message of that I believe God is wanting me to share with you all, and for you to soak in the spirit of Jesus that are behind these words.

For those of you that can get pass Matthew 6:24 and are willing to hear a further revelation to that scripture. Then please DM and we can discuss this on a more personal level.

I am not all that keen to debate this, since I know from experience that it won't lead to unity, only disunity will follow.

I pray that everyone that reads this will at least pray to God about this before they respond and see if any of what I shared here is true. If you do this, then I am confident that God will back up the words in this letter.

In Peace and Love

 

[Dovegiven]

@Dovegiven,
The vital principle is - by the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20; 1Joh. 3:4; Jam. 2:9). Each of these scriptures speak on the vital principle of sin. Another vital principle is the law is not of faith (Gal. 3:12). The scripture you used in Romans 14:23 is not speaking about sin as a verb, but the act of Satan as a noun working through a believer. This is also what Romans 6:16 is teaching.

Oops, I touched the lip of a lady in her open casket, having been blessed by her teaching, then the next day attended church without satisfying the local priest. OUCH I serve Satan? Well, no, of course. Oh, my, I ate shrimp at Red Lobster last night. Can't go set up chairs in my church today because I am unclean? Absurd, huh?

It appears I made a grave mistake not giving Rom 14:23 as part of adequate context, confusing you. Try again this time.
Romans 14:14-23 (KJV)
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

God now allows Christians many acts the Law forever prohibits. Why? I am now dead to the Law, alive to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Gaining knowledge of those intricacies of life in the presence of others is important, but unless someone informs the Christian that a certain indulgence is offensive to them the offense will occur without malice. That is not serving Satan. You apologize and remember not to order a roast pig when expecting a certain person who you know would be insulted. I am not commanded to clear my home fridge and freezers of bacon, sliced ham, andouille sausage, frozen alligator tail, deer, elk, duck, muskrats, etc., a rabbit maybe left, lest someone looking for a cold green tea discover it and be lost forever. If someone has a list of offenses they need to say something before prowling around my home. Actually, in the last 20 years I have not met anyone still offended by drinks and meats like old times, but most have preferences, like refusing hamburger for fear of Mad Cow disease.

SO, I don't serve Satan when I partake of unclean animal flesh because I don't doubt about it, in full good conviction that what I allow is approved by God, who used the vision of unclean animals for Peter to eat, setting the apostle up to meet Cornelius.
Acts 10:14-16 (KJV)
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

The vision took uncleanness to the max, even showing Peter that gentiles were not unclean like so many unclean beasts. It would be a mistake to think God used error to teach that truth, so the sheet had also to do with an end of prohibition of touching/eating what the Law declares to be unclean for gentiles to be free of it. That also applies to Jews, but they still choose to live in the law. Many do anyway.

I think you have taken the serving Satan and serving Jesus simultaneously to error. Doing what the Law says is sin is not equal to trying to serve both masters. Multiplied billions of people on earth will never see the Law of Moses, especially an old testament. Nobody knows it to learn the Law. But the world is flooded with New Testaments in practically every known language. For them is the law of life and liberty, faith and love, not filled with "Do not".

The Law was not given for Satan to preside over. The Law is holy. Serving the Law is not serving Satan, but no man can be justified by the commandments and ordinances (works) of it. If a person serves it for their righteousness, they don't serve Jesus.

You are quite safe ignoring the entire Old Testament if your faith is in Christ, following Jesus, proving your love by doing his commandments. It is not necessary to know the Mosaic Law. I went into it for scholastic reasons, to increase my knowledge of the entire OT. Christian chat forum participation demanded investigation of it. When I do I always see something new to me, affirmations of what sin is according to that covenant, though most of it, especially the ordinances, are not applicable to Christians. That helps me deal with class questions. When I read there the Lord speaks to me from it, too. He loves that word too. But God doesn't require me to memorize every jot and tittle of the Law lest I fall. I live in Christ, who died to that law so I could too.

Be careful not to repeat the error of the Galatians. Live by faith.

 

[Dovegiven]

I am encouraged by how this conversation is progressing. It seems @Chad4Him you are able to see the need to do good works as a fruit of being saved. That is good. However, there still seems to be some disconnect with regards to works connecting to salvation. I will elaborate......

I know there are other bible writers that talks about working for money is a good thing and that God wants us all to prosper. I don't really want to go through every one, I just brought these two up because I know they are the ones going through people's mind as they read Jesus' teaching about quitting our jobs for Him.

I have a few comments. Not all Christians are called to "live by the gospel" as is ordained for pastors in
1 Corinthians 9:12-14 (KJV)
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Paul chose to work for his room and board so as not to be burden, allowing him to go to very poor populations successfullly. We all have such a power for ministry, to work or not work. God might let you do that to lose weight and improve health while preaching the gospel free. God blesses the works of our hands to generate money to help others whose calling is to serve the laity. Paul taught people to leave their homes, assemble together, lay up offerings. They returned home to their fields and orchards with instructions to also witness Christ.

Acts 2:44 was very temporary. That lifestyle was not noted by historians of the time to have been a continued practice of the Church at Jerusalem. All those people had come up for the feasts. A third tithe helped pay for necessities of the huge numbers of Jews until they typically departed to their homes all around the Levant, as soon as the Law allowed them to travel. Of those, new Christians held over to learn of the gospel as much as they could before going back to their towns and fields. The Jews would have grown way too intolerant of such a gathering of Christians around their city. They persecuted Christians like they resisted Jesus.

When Paul stayed in Corinth with tentmakers Aquila and Priscilla, in the spirit of his teaching later in 1 Cor 9, he laid no burden on them for his support, but helped them at their trade. That was not a sin. What he did helped put money in their hands to pay their bills and be able to host the man of God. There is absolutely nothing evil about a Christian working for money to support his family, lest he be considered an infidel. Try paying taxes, fees, and having lights and gas in your home without money, not breaking laws, or being a burden on neighbors. None of that is endorsed by God as good behavior. You would have no name, no usefulness, no witness to go about expecting others in mosr cultures to support you. That doesn't rule out a poor family acting on what they believe is God telling them to support a visiting preacher, out of their own needs. Paul chose not to let folks do that. If you have the faith to live that way, do it.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
When there is a change in the Priesthood, there is also a change in the law (Heb. 7:12). Under the Law of Mosses the people were justified by the law, the law told you that you sinned. Believers are not being told they sin by the law, because we are not under the law. Jesus is not telling any believer they sin. The problem with the Galatians church is they were also trying to justify themselves by the law. Believers, after Christ, are not justified by the law, but by faith in what Jesus has done and told them. I am seeking Eternal Life and the law could not give me that, so I did what the lawyer did and ask Jesus, "what must I do to inherit eternal life," Jesus told me what is required for a believer to obtain it. Nothing more.

Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 10:26
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:28
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Jesus told me, "DO THIS AND LIVE." I take Jesus at His word. It's not about the food I eat, it's not about if I touch something dead; this is what it's about.

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:this is the first commandment.

Every person that commits sin is serving the devil (Rom. 6:16). They are not serving Jesus Christ because in Christ there is no sin (1Joh. 3:5). Jesus said if a man commits sin he is the servant of sin (Joh. 8:34).

 

[Lily Miller]

@Sue D. please re read my posts, i am not saying at all that what Jesus did for us is not important. I am just saying that we need to do things for him in return!

@Hiswillbedone When you said “The main argument against not wanting to do good works is because there is no amount of good works that can save us. This I believe is true. But, and listen closely to this, just because works doesn't save us, that doesn't justify us not trying to obey Jesus and do good works. I think this is the main issue that people are fighting against (at least the side that is arguing disobeying Jesus because He did it all for us on the cross).” I really agreed with that! What you said in your post was accurate!