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Question regarding Commands of Jesus

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@Wired 4Fishen,
Greetings,
Sow means to plant.

Plant, Feed, Water
Its that simple
We either feed and nourish our old nature or our new nature.
Blessings
You chimed into an replied to my post and said, "sow means to plant" to correct me. I pointed out "sow" in the "work" sense and presented scripture to my point. You felt I was taking scripture out of context. You don't agree that plant is a work. You appear not to believe that you must work/sow to bring about the character of Christ. You are planting and you are watering, but God gives the increase after you've been obedient being a doer of His word. You are telling me that I'm wrong but you won't explain how?

Nope sure am not but then again myself or the scriptures that were quoted are not talking about it either.
Sow equals plant
Everything about Gods Word revolves around seed
Everything does revolve around the word of God, but if you don't "plant" that seed in your heart and "water" that seed (reading, study, meditating and doing) (WORK) you will be fruitless and unfruitful in your actions. You will not obtain Eternal Life.
 
Active Member
@Sue D.,
Cain through Satan's leading started the physical violence; but Satan started the spiritual violence.
To demonstrate why folks say you cherrypick verses out of context, consider these I found just by doing a word search for sin pre-Law.
[COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Genesis 4:7 (KJV) [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 18:20 (KJV)
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Genesis 20:9 (KJV)
9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Genesis 31:36 (KJV)
36 And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?
Genesis 39:9 (KJV)
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
Genesis 42:22 (KJV)
22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.
Genesis 50:17 (KJV)
17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
Exodus 10:17 (KJV)
17 Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.[/COLOR]

Which among those are "physical" only, and which are "spiritual" only, and which are both types? Sin is sin, the hardening of the heart toward God and His will. How did Pharaoh know he had sinned? It is not recordedt hat Moses did that. God did in Exo 10:1, in hardening his heart to choose to keep sinning. Sin has been imputed by God ever since Adam. Sinner hearts continue to be hardened by God when they persist in their sins too long, rendering those souls incapable of repenting with a true heart, like He did the enemies of Christ, blinding them to truth, howbeit to accomplish His plan.
 
Active Member
To demonstrate why folks say you cherrypick verses out of context, consider these I found just by doing a word search for sin pre-Law.
Which among those are "physical" only, and which are "spiritual" only, and which are both types? Sin is sin, the hardening of the heart toward God and His will. How did Pharaoh know he had sinned? It is not recordedt hat Moses did that. God did in Exo 10:1, in hardening his heart to choose to keep sinning. Sin has been imputed by God ever since Adam. Sinner hearts continue to be hardened by God when they persist in their sins too long, rendering those souls incapable of repenting with a true heart, like He did the enemies of Christ, blinding them to truth, howbeit to accomplish His plan.
The difference is I explain myself and show how I came to the conclusion I do. When I ask for a person to prove me wrong in the context I use them, they either can't or they chose not to -so they shouldn't complain. Carnal minded people will read something and immediately disagree without meditation - especially if it's new to them. If a person shows me my error in the context of what I'm saying, I have no choice but to see it. All they have to do is show me in scripture and explain their position of why i'm wrong - through scriptures. I have no problem admitting my wrong. I've admitted my errors when it was brought to my attention. When I show a person their errors, I give them an explanation and use scripture when I need to. I've ask continually for people to show me I'm wrong and they will not.

What incorrect reference did I give in the post you are referring too below in my scriptural examples? God's word is truth. I use God's word to clarify the points I make. Sense you brought this up - correct me in what I said below.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Notice how I used that scripture... God has given me understanding. You can do the same thing I do - God gives the understanding if you put in the work.

Like you said, folk on this forum talk about me cherry pickin scriptures, but God's word is truth with foundational principles across the board. If a person has understanding in what God's word is saying, they will uncover wisdom. Because I said that - people will say I'm arrogant and so on. They need to check themselves - not me. There is nothing new under the sun, if they checked Jesus, I expect them to check me.

What did I say wrong in the scriptures below?

@Sue D.,
Cain through Satan's leading started the physical violence; but Satan started the spiritual violence.

Genesis 4:8
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

The key words are, "EVERY IMAGINATION," "ONLY" and "CONTINUALLY EVIL." Lamech followed suite in the evil of that day when he became violent. Violent is a good word to describe some of the evil at that time.

Genesis 4:23
And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; you wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: For I have slain a man to my wounding, And a young man to my hurt.
Genesis 4:24
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, Truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
 
Active Member
@Wired 4Fishen,


You chimed into an replied to my post and said, "sow means to plant" to correct me. I pointed out "sow" in the "work" sense and presented scripture to my point. You felt I was taking scripture out of context. You don't agree that plant is a work. You appear not to believe that you must work/sow to bring about the character of Christ. You are planting and you are watering, but God gives the increase after you've been obedient being a doer of His word. You are telling me that I'm wrong but you won't explain how?



Everything does revolve around the word of God, but if you don't "plant" that seed in your heart and "water" that seed (reading, study, meditating and doing) (WORK) you will be fruitless and unfruitful in your actions. You will not obtain Eternal Life.


Your premise for obtaining eternal life is faulty. You're trying to use Scripture with your own definitions to adjust salvation -- making the things you listed as Works when they are Not works.

Planting seed in the ground to grow a crop Is work. Yes. But That action / activity is a person's life is Not gaining them their salvation.

Meditating, reading, studying and doing what God's Word is telling us to do is Not gaining our salvation. Those activities are not 'works'. Those things you listed are important After our salvation -- to grow spiritually.

Your comment regarding "you must work/ sow to bring about the character of Christ"?! Explain that please. Bringing about the character of Christ. Now - we Are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. And we Are to be trying to be more like Christ. "What would Jesus Christ do" in our situation in life.

this is all about the parable of the sower and the ground.

You are making a 'work' out of Everything. And , thus, in effect, nullyfying the need for the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In a previous post you've suggested that through the wisdom that God has given you, that you understand of that particular verse Matthew 11:19 and you're suggesting that everyone else can Also understand that verse the same way You do. As long as they have the wisdom from God that You do. You said to notice how you used that verse -- so How Were you using that verse? What 'understanding' were you coming to.
 
Active Member
Your premise for obtaining eternal life is faulty. You're trying to use Scripture with your own definitions to adjust salvation -- making the things you listed as Works when they are Not works.

Planting seed in the ground to grow a crop Is work. Yes. But That action / activity is a person's life is Not gaining them their salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand;
1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

If a believer begin to live a worldly life contrary to the Gospel of Christ; and start fornicating, fighting, angry for no reason with a carnal agenda, have they kept in memory the things Christ has preached to them through His word?

Romans 8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13
For if you live after the flesh, ye shall die:but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

If a believer (these folks) lives after the flesh, their works are representing what they believe. Can these believers works keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven?

Meditating, reading, studying and doing what God's Word is telling us to do is Not gaining our salvation. Those activities are not 'works'. Those things you listed are important After our salvation -- to grow spiritually.
Meditating, reading, studying and "DOING" what God's word teaches gets you into Heaven. If you don't do what God teaches, you don't believe and you won't get in the Kingdom of God. These scriptures gives below are a warning to those Christian who are in the flesh; believers that will not make it into God's Kingdom. Unbelievers don't really know about the Kingdom of God and can careless. It's the believer that cares.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Your comment regarding "you must work/ sow to bring about the character of Christ"?! Explain that please. Bringing about the character of Christ. Now - we Are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. And we Are to be trying to be more like Christ. "What would Jesus Christ do" in our situation in life.
Jesus is looking for those that love Him and not the world. The work all believers are responsible to do, is put on the character of Christ. Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering, Gentleness, etc (Gal. 5:22, 23). This can only be done if the believer keeps the 10 Commandments which are the attributes of the lave of Christ. Without the law of love, it's impossible; this is the work. This is why Christ said, if you love me you will keep my commandments (Joh. 14:15). The commandments are the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

this is all about the parable of the sower and the ground.
You are making a 'work' out of Everything. And , thus, in effect, nullyfying the need for the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In a previous post you've suggested that through the wisdom that God has given you, that you understand of that particular verse Matthew 11:19 and you're suggesting that everyone else can Also understand that verse the same way You do. As long as they have the wisdom from God that You do. You said to notice how you used that verse -- so How Were you using that verse? What 'understanding' were you coming to.
The sower of the seed teaches a believer what their responsibility is if they chose to obey. Two groups the seed fell on chose not work towards Christ and became tares. At the end of the day, literally, they became tares and were cast into the lake of fire. Only one heart obeyed. These brought forth fruit/character of Christ in love.

1 Timothy 4:15
Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

This is a faith walk, but faith without works is death.
 
Active Member
The Bible is inspired, but it is not infallible. Paul says all scri[tures were inspired by God... Yet the Bible wasn't around when He wrote that, was it? Again this doctrine is mainly used to knock off what Jesus taught and promote a lesser Bible writer. Don't fall for this trap.
Thanks for being clear with your beliefs and for exposing your "doctrine" for what it is... but if you don't believe the Bible to be infallible there is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you on this subject. You are not only trying to convince me to follow Jesus' commands literally and legalistically, but also telling me that in order to do this I need to ignore parts of scripture, which I do not intend to do.

I do agree that there is a great need for revival, and those of us who proclaim Christianity should truly follow Christ. It could very well be that this will look radically different than most of Christianity today. But the answer is not to ignore scripture but rather to look to the Bible in its entirety to find the answers on how to do this and be accepted of God.
 
Active Member
Lily, to me, what this sounds like is... if I make the right decisions, and do enough works of righteousness and obedience, God will approve of me and I will essentially make myself "born again" by strict obedience.

I am afraid that is not enough. We must be made a completely new creature in Him by a supernatural work of grace - we cannot merit his favor by obedience or ever expect that if we follow his commands closely enough (without this new heart traded for our old one with its sinful desires) he will accept us. Rather, we must admit that we are unworthy sinners incapable of being good enough to be His Child, and accept the covering of Jesus' blood when we repent of our sins.

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I've been trying to ask questions in different ways, giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping to hear something from you that would tell me you believe that salvation is a work of God, but your answers (so far) unfortunately don't convince me of this but rather leave me with the feeling that we "earn" His favor by good deeds. You have mentioned the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice etc. but it almost seems an afterthought or something of little importance. Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding you.
[COLOR=rgb(71, 85, 119)]Our words are seed planted when they are spoken. The greatest work for us is responsibly uttering 'good crop' words that accomplish much, especially when our words are literally God's words. The words we utter are in the same class of works as were those of God who created by His words. He spoke good things in Gen 1. We should always speak words of life truthfully. In fact, our own first 'word-work' unto salvation is described in[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Romans 10:9 (KJV) [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(71, 85, 119)] It isn't that we generate righteousness of ourselves, but that we express our immediate obedience to LORD Jesus, who requires men to confess Him openly before other people, else He will not confess us to the Father. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(40, 50, 78)]None are saved until performing that work of the mouth coupled with the heart of belief. From that moment on we continue doing that confession, but add righteous works as ambassadors of Christ, justified before the Father as though we had never sinned. The work of an ambassador is to deliver the word of the will of the one sending the ambassador, speaking not of his own[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]. [/COLOR]
 
Active Member
The difference is I explain myself and show how I came to the conclusion I do. When I ask for a person to prove me wrong in the context I use them, they either can't or they chose not to -so they shouldn't complain. Carnal minded people will read something and immediately disagree without meditation - especially if it's new to them. If a person shows me my error in the context of what I'm saying, I have no choice but to see it. All they have to do is show me in scripture and explain their position of why i'm wrong - through scriptures. I have no problem admitting my wrong. I've admitted my errors when it was brought to my attention. When I show a person their errors, I give them an explanation and use scripture when I need to. I've ask continually for people to show me I'm wrong and they will not.

What incorrect reference did I give in the post you are referring too below in my scriptural examples? God's word is truth. I use God's word to clarify the points I make. Sense you brought this up - correct me in what I said below.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Notice how I used that scripture... God has given me understanding. You can do the same thing I do - God gives the understanding if you put in the work.

Like you said, folk on this forum talk about me cherry pickin scriptures, but God's word is truth with foundational principles across the board. If a person has understanding in what God's word is saying, they will uncover wisdom. Because I said that - people will say I'm arrogant and so on. They need to check themselves - not me. There is nothing new under the sun, if they checked Jesus, I expect them to check me.

What did I say wrong in the scriptures below?
I didn't find where I discussed Mt 11:19. But while in that sermon I will point out one of the first prophecies of the coming Savior in
[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Matthew 11:12-13 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.[/COLOR]

Abel was the first human to kill an animal to use it for a blood sacrifice for sin. Sin was introduced by the deed of Adam and Eve acting upon words of Satan. Most people witnessing for the first time the slaying of an innocent animal is a mighty violence that offends. It was God who intercepted Cain upon finding the wrath in that man over Abel's offering.
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Genesis 4:6-7 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.[/COLOR]

The Hebrew "chatta ha" was translated simply "sin". It is actually all-inclusive of everything sin to sin offering. Both applications were meant in that passage, with sin nearby already, and having been laid at the altar by Abel.

Sin had begun in the garden before the family was banished from it. It didn't take the Law of Moses for Adam to know very keenly he had sinned. The two brothers were post-garden, post original sin. It was time for them to make an offering, seeing sin was entered in and would not go away. God pointed out it was needful for Cain also to leave sin at the door of the tabernacle, the altar of sacrifice, not carrying it forth while making a lame offering. The only acceptable offering for sin was blood. It took physical and spiritual violence to accomplish that. Jesus suffered both types of violence for us, himself becoming sin, leaving sin at the altar, to be taken out of the camp by act of God in Jesus.

Christians ought to practice spiritual violence, not passiveness, as Paul described putting on the spiritual armor of God in Eph 6, and acting accordingly.
 
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Thanks for being clear with your beliefs and for exposing your "doctrine" for what it is... but if you don't believe the Bible to be infallible there is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you on this subject. You are not only trying to convince me to follow Jesus' commands literally and legalistically, but also telling me that in order to do this I need to ignore parts of scripture, which I do not intend to do.

I do agree that there is a great need for revival, and those of us who proclaim Christianity should truly follow Christ. It could very well be that this will look radically different than most of Christianity today. But the answer is not to ignore scripture but rather to look to the Bible in its entirety to find the answers on how to do this and be accepted of God.
It seems your above statement is rather contradictory. At first you say we shouldn't follow Jesus, then you say what we need to do is 'truly follow Christ'. So which one is it? IS following Jesus literally wrong? Or is it difficult, so you choose to ignore it and negate what Jesus said because you don't want to follow His rules?

Your interpretation of what I stated isn't accurate about the Bible. Firstly, no where in the Bible does it claim to be the Word of God, or infallible. Second, I believe the Bible in all it's entirety, but, I don't agree with people using the Bible to negate what Jesus clearly taught just because they don't want to obey it. That is what happens when we set the Bible equal to Jesus. On judgment day, I will take my chances in obeying Jesus and what He taught, compared to any other bible writer. REally, none of them contradict Jesus, but when taken through a biased lens, then they are twisted for their own destruction.

You want a revival in the church, but you don't want to come to Jesus to find it. Jesus spoke truth of the Pharisees of His time when he said,
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (Believe in Jesus my friend)


39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Isn't this what is happening today? People will go to the OT, or Paul, or Peter, in order to find eternal life, but they don't want to come to Jesus?

Jesus told Nicodeemus, a Pharisee steeped into religious tradition, that He must become born-again if He wants a chance to see the Kingdom. Nicky needed to let go of all his previous experience of being in his religion, and be like a child desiring the milk of God's word. Sadly, there are not many born-againers out there. Sure, there are people that proclaim they are born-again, but on closer examination, they are just dry wells and clouds without rain.

If we aren't willing to fall on Jesus' rock and be broken, then on judgement day when it comes to judge us (John 12:48), it will surely grind us to powder (Matthew 21:42-44).

In peace
 
Active Member
It seems your above statement is rather contradictory. At first you say we shouldn't follow Jesus, then you say what we need to do is 'truly follow Christ'. So which one is it? IS following Jesus literally wrong? Or is it difficult, so you choose to ignore it and negate what Jesus said because you don't want to follow His rules?

Your interpretation of what I stated isn't accurate about the Bible. Firstly, no where in the Bible does it claim to be the Word of God, or infallible. Second, I believe the Bible in all it's entirety, but, I don't agree with people using the Bible to negate what Jesus clearly taught just because they don't want to obey it. That is what happens when we set the Bible equal to Jesus. On judgment day, I will take my chances in obeying Jesus and what He taught, compared to any other bible writer. REally, none of them contradict Jesus, but when taken through a biased lens, then they are twisted for their own destruction.

You want a revival in the church, but you don't want to come to Jesus to find it. Jesus spoke truth of the Pharisees of His time when he said,
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (Believe in Jesus my friend)


39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Isn't this what is happening today? People will go to the OT, or Paul, or Peter, in order to find eternal life, but they don't want to come to Jesus?

Jesus told Nicodeemus, a Pharisee steeped into religious tradition, that He must become born-again if He wants a chance to see the Kingdom. Nicky needed to let go of all his previous experience of being in his religion, and be like a child desiring the milk of God's word. Sadly, there are not many born-againers out there. Sure, there are people that proclaim they are born-again, but on closer examination, they are just dry wells and clouds without rain.

If we aren't willing to fall on Jesus' rock and be broken, then on judgement day when it comes to judge us (John 12:48), it will surely grind us to powder (Matthew 21:42-44).

In peace
I'll write what I mean by truly following Christ, but first some points on how I interpret scripture.. I believe you need to take the whole bible into account to find out what Jesus really wants of us. Something to think about... even the gospels were written not by Jesus but by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They wrote what Jesus said, and some of the other disciples wrote some other books of the Bible that tell us how to follow what Jesus said. Those other disciples also walked with Christ and heard Him. (The apostle Paul did not but we could get into why his words were inspired and counted as scripture).

Regarding the argument "Well, who is it that saves you - is it Jesus or Paul or some other disciple?" - I don't see that as a strong argument but a bit of a red herring. The whole Bible tells us God's plan and how to be saved. We don't just narrow it down to the words of Jesus.

I along with you don't agree with twisting verses to negate what Jesus said, or ignoring verses. But I do use the entire bible to interpret what Jesus wants His followers to do. You and others have mentioned taking your chances by following Jesus literally, and how you think that by doing this, surely God will not deny you on judgment day. Could it be that if we discount what is said in the rest of the Bible and place our trust in following Jesus' literal words that we will miss the point? I am not judging you or your salvation but I do believe we need to focus on the entire Bible, not to negate Jesus' words but rather to more fully understand them. I believe there is a way we can fully follow the entire tenor of scripture without saying that some of it is fallible or incorrect.
 
Active Member
It seems your above statement is rather contradictory. At first you say we shouldn't follow Jesus, then you say what we need to do is 'truly follow Christ'. So which one is it? IS following Jesus literally wrong? Or is it difficult, so you choose to ignore it and negate what Jesus said because you don't want to follow His rules?

Your interpretation of what I stated isn't accurate about the Bible. Firstly, no where in the Bible does it claim to be the Word of God, or infallible. Second, I believe the Bible in all it's entirety, but, I don't agree with people using the Bible to negate what Jesus clearly taught just because they don't want to obey it. That is what happens when we set the Bible equal to Jesus. On judgment day, I will take my chances in obeying Jesus and what He taught, compared to any other bible writer. REally, none of them contradict Jesus, but when taken through a biased lens, then they are twisted for their own destruction.

You want a revival in the church, but you don't want to come to Jesus to find it. Jesus spoke truth of the Pharisees of His time when he said,
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (Believe in Jesus my friend)


39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Isn't this what is happening today? People will go to the OT, or Paul, or Peter, in order to find eternal life, but they don't want to come to Jesus?

Jesus told Nicodeemus, a Pharisee steeped into religious tradition, that He must become born-again if He wants a chance to see the Kingdom. Nicky needed to let go of all his previous experience of being in his religion, and be like a child desiring the milk of God's word. Sadly, there are not many born-againers out there. Sure, there are people that proclaim they are born-again, but on closer examination, they are just dry wells and clouds without rain.

If we aren't willing to fall on Jesus' rock and be broken, then on judgement day when it comes to judge us (John 12:48), it will surely grind us to powder (Matthew 21:42-44).

In peace
It wasn't necessary for any one recorder of Bible books to declare infallibility, or the whole of it being the word of God. Most of them never knew each other, nor read each other's book. Yet all are perfectly aligned proving divine inspiration. Considering also how many thousand lines of prophecy are in the OT and quoted in the NT, and how many were fulfilled in great detail, and obviously remain being fulfilled, and to be fulfilled, again we have a very statistically sound evidence of it all given by God to men to record, without error. Which of those men should have declared the whole to be infallible, the word of God? Most died before knowing the full extent of the truth in their report. The prophets dreamed of the Messiah, but didn't know how or why he would do what he did because God is on record having blinded the eyes of unbelieving Israel. So it is not all the gospel truth is in the OT.

Jesus' words were by far mostly directed to Israel, not to gentiles. He did visit Samaria, began a revival of "half-Jews there to be believers via the woman at the well, but was rejected soundly later. A few more contacts with gentiles remains of note. Jesus presented his gospel to Jews. He said in
[COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Matthew 15:24 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]24 But he answered and said[/COLOR], [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.[/COLOR]

He came for the House of Israel, yet kept the Law perfectly. That has always been a mystery to gentiles who know nothing of the reason for that bloody religion. I witnessed to a Buddhist on a plane in the 1980's who was offended by the fact a good man doing no evil had to be beaten and give his blood, using that term "Bloody religion!". I tried to begin with John 3, which he had heard, but didn't comprehend. I tried by way of the OT, but ran out of time to wrap it up trying to explain that. I should have gone to Hebrews then Romans, letting Paul speak in the manner of helping a gentile consider the ways of Judaism in relation to the gospel of Christ. Paul's dialog splendidly covers it enough not to need the OT at all. Better understanding of the mechanism of sacrifice to God came when I began following links in my old Thompson Chain Reference into the OT. All of it together fits like a custom made fine leather glove. That cohesiveness is evidence of the Bible being the word of God.

Not letting the Holy Spirit show the perfection, the infallibility of the revealed Word of God is dangerous ground. Even Billy Graham didn't just quote words of Jesus, leaving the job of understanding by the Spirit up to hearers. It required the apostles explaining after Jesus returned to heaven for Israel to begin believing.

So why might you suppose Israel was not already saved before the Day of Pentecost, at least upon all those hearing His words, if his words were sufficient in themselves to save them? Why so few that didn't run away? Why wasn't that word enough to keep the 11 in hiding, fearing the Jews, not expecting Jesus to return?

Once a Christian meets Jesus and is born again, then those words in red print become so precious, that lamp going before us. Thanks be for those apostles who gave their lives to help us realize the meat of those words.

Answer:
[COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]John 14:25-27 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.[/COLOR]

The reason so few of Israel couldn't be saved by Jesus' words when delivered to them is because He knew it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to come and teach them all things. That happened beginning with Peter's sermon, which introduced what was happening by way of Joel and and David by Psalms 16:8-11, then others teaching the gospel by the Spirit they received, interpreting things they witnessed and heard of the Spirit.

The sermon of Peter that day. How much of the actual recorded words of Jesus in the 4 gospels were used to bring the 3,000 to repentance and belief? You are close, neighbor, but need to reconsider your opinion about the Bible.
 
It wasn't necessary for any one recorder of Bible books to declare infallibility, or the whole of it being the word of God. Most of them never knew each other, nor read each other's book. Yet all are perfectly aligned proving divine inspiration. Considering also how many thousand lines of prophecy are in the OT and quoted in the NT, and how many were fulfilled in great detail, and obviously remain being fulfilled, and to be fulfilled, again we have a very statistically sound evidence of it all given by God to men to record, without error. Which of those men should have declared the whole to be infallible, the word of God? Most died before knowing the full extent of the truth in their report. The prophets dreamed of the Messiah, but didn't know how or why he would do what he did because God is on record having blinded the eyes of unbelieving Israel. So it is not all the gospel truth is in the OT.

Jesus' words were by far mostly directed to Israel, not to gentiles. He did visit Samaria, began a revival of "half-Jews there to be believers via the woman at the well, but was rejected soundly later. A few more contacts with gentiles remains of note. Jesus presented his gospel to Jews. He said in
[COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Matthew 15:24 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]24 But he answered and said[/COLOR], [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.[/COLOR]

He came for the House of Israel, yet kept the Law perfectly. That has always been a mystery to gentiles who know nothing of the reason for that bloody religion. I witnessed to a Buddhist on a plane in the 1980's who was offended by the fact a good man doing no evil had to be beaten and give his blood, using that term "Bloody religion!". I tried to begin with John 3, which he had heard, but didn't comprehend. I tried by way of the OT, but ran out of time to wrap it up trying to explain that. I should have gone to Hebrews then Romans, letting Paul speak in the manner of helping a gentile consider the ways of Judaism in relation to the gospel of Christ. Paul's dialog splendidly covers it enough not to need the OT at all. Better understanding of the mechanism of sacrifice to God came when I began following links in my old Thompson Chain Reference into the OT. All of it together fits like a custom made fine leather glove. That cohesiveness is evidence of the Bible being the word of God.

Not letting the Holy Spirit show the perfection, the infallibility of the revealed Word of God is dangerous ground. Even Billy Graham didn't just quote words of Jesus, leaving the job of understanding by the Spirit up to hearers. It required the apostles explaining after Jesus returned to heaven for Israel to begin believing.

So why might you suppose Israel was not already saved before the Day of Pentecost, at least upon all those hearing His words, if his words were sufficient in themselves to save them? Why so few that didn't run away? Why wasn't that word enough to keep the 11 in hiding, fearing the Jews, not expecting Jesus to return?

Once a Christian meets Jesus and is born again, then those words in red print become so precious, that lamp going before us. Thanks be for those apostles who gave their lives to help us realize the meat of those words.

Answer:
[COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]John 14:25-27 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.[/COLOR]

The reason so few of Israel couldn't be saved by Jesus' words when delivered to them is because He knew it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to come and teach them all things. That happened beginning with Peter's sermon, which introduced what was happening by way of Joel and and David by Psalms 16:8-11, then others teaching the gospel by the Spirit they received, interpreting things they witnessed and heard of the Spirit.

The sermon of Peter that day. How much of the actual recorded words of Jesus in the 4 gospels were used to bring the 3,000 to repentance and belief? You are close, neighbor, but need to reconsider your opinion about the Bible.
It is interesting that the idea the Bile being the Word of God is such a strong belief that people have. Even though no scripture testifies of this, yet it seems to be a fundamental doctrine, backed up by theological proof. What the Bible does testify is that Jesus is the Word of God (John1:1 & Revelation 19:13). Why is there a strong desire to reject this clear teaching of the Bible.

In John 3:16, Jesus wasn't only talking about the Jews, was He? Nevertheless, Jesus used the word "Whosoever" believes in me.... It doesn't seem like it was only referring to the Jews here. Even Jesus told the Jews that the Kingdom of heaven will be taken from them and given to a nation producing it's fruit. What fruit are we suppose to show? Could it be the fruit that the Jews were suppose to do? Hmmm.

Lastly, the account says that Peter spoke 'many more sayings' to the multitude during His sermon. Did they contain any of the teachings of Jesus...? Well, Acts 2:44-45, "
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;


45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

They sold all their possessions. Does Jesus teach this...? Indeed. (Luke 14:33 & Luke 12:33)

I can appreciate that you believe that you are trying to move me closer to Jesus through this conversation, but, the impression I am getting is that I don't have to move closer to Jesus by obeying Him. I am sorry my friend, that is not the rock I built my house on. My house is built on the rock (Jesus) and Jesus won't allow my house to be torn down.

I really encourage you to test your spirit and see why you are fighting against what Jesus is saying. Mind you, you are not arguing me, you are arguing Him who sent me...

In peace
 
Active Member
Amen! They either work for us or against us. There is no such thing as just words.
Blessings in Christ
Every word spoken is a tare (weed) or seed of a good crop. No words are empty, but many are idle. God prefers us to be hot or cold, not lukewarm. The idle words have to be judged. Success with God involves guarding the tongue, speaking godly goals. If we sow weedy words, we get a crop of weeds. I contracted to seed a shrub & tree nursery with a mixed cover crop to control weeds. One or more of the seed bags contained a noxious contaminant weed we didn't see. The job was a loss due to having to kill the cover crop without damaging the desired plants, then replant. I often think about that before opening my mouth, lest I do damage. I've learned never to utter words like "Well, I just know as soon as I buy more of that stock the market will probably drop." I got my damaged 'crop'. "I'm afraid I'm catching a cold." Sure enough, I caught it. "I'd die for a hot cup of coffee right now." My wife bound those words instantly. "That just tickles me to death." Tickling is fun, not intended to kill. That boy is going to go wrong, you know, like father like son." Pray for the boy, be a good witness for him, instead of cursing him. "My arthritis is just killing me" is not a good name & claim utterance. Choose to say blessings of the Word over yourself.
 
Active Member
It is interesting that the idea the Bile being the Word of God is such a strong belief that people have. Even though no scripture testifies of this, yet it seems to be a fundamental doctrine, backed up by theological proof. What the Bible does testify is that Jesus is the Word of God (John1:1 & Revelation 19:13). Why is there a strong desire to reject this clear teaching of the Bible.

In John 3:16, Jesus wasn't only talking about the Jews, was He? Nevertheless, Jesus used the word "Whosoever" believes in me.... It doesn't seem like it was only referring to the Jews here. Even Jesus told the Jews that the Kingdom of heaven will be taken from them and given to a nation producing it's fruit. What fruit are we suppose to show? Could it be the fruit that the Jews were suppose to do? Hmmm.

Lastly, the account says that Peter spoke 'many more sayings' to the multitude during His sermon. Did they contain any of the teachings of Jesus...? Well, Acts 2:44-45, "
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;


45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

They sold all their possessions. Does Jesus teach this...? Indeed. (Luke 14:33 & Luke 12:33)

I can appreciate that you believe that you are trying to move me closer to Jesus through this conversation, but, the impression I am getting is that I don't have to move closer to Jesus by obeying Him. I am sorry my friend, that is not the rock I built my house on. My house is built on the rock (Jesus) and Jesus won't allow my house to be torn down.

I really encourage you to test your spirit and see why you are fighting against what Jesus is saying. Mind you, you are not arguing me, you are arguing Him who sent me...

In peace
The verses you quoted about selling all we have, giving it to the poor, have a much different interpretation than that based on other scriptures.
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]2 Thessalonians 3:8-15 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.[/COLOR]

A man that won't work to support his family, including a parent, especially a widowed parent, is to be considered worse than an infidel. A lazy bum, a shame to the Church, always needing the Lord to pay his way, a "borrower" every time you meet him. Selling the roof off your family, giving all to the poor as a way to live, especially if married, is ridiculous unless solidly confirmed as His path. If children are involved it becomes a crime in many places. What happened for a short time in Acts 2, having everything in common, was not the permanent mode of living for Christians. They went home, it being illegal for them to congregate permanently as homeless, squatting on private land. They didn't have national parks. Mostly first born sons were present, as required by the Law once a year, having families at home somewhere, with some present with wives, but with no mention of children there. Eventually all is sold and eaten, everyone on welfare with none paying, which is the end run of socialism. It has never worked. Every nation trying it has had to be bailed out.

Jesus dealt with a very wealthy young man who claimed he was OK. He was then challenged to take a longer step, selling all, giving it to the poor. If single that wouldn't have been such a hazardous thing to do, but he would have to reasonably work for his bread if not led to a host to take care of him, like the widow provided for Elijah, with a miracle from God for that purpose. She was down to nothing, then ended up wealthy in olive oil. So there is a case for selling all, giving it all to the poor, also, but it isn't for every Christian to live that way. There are anti-vagrancy laws that would keep a person on his feet traveling, What the scriptures teach is the danger of heaping up treasures on earth, to which the wealthy become addicted to, while the needy around them suffer.

[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Luke 12:16-21 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.[/COLOR]

When the man was prospering rightly, God was not offended, enjoying his blessing.
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Proverbs 3:7-10 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine[/COLOR].

The man took it way too far. It wasn't a matter of being required or even suggested to sell all and give it all away.

It is God who gives us power to get wealth to finance ministry, and He changes not . If everyone gave it all to the poor, they themselves would not fit into most cultures, other than become homeless, among the needy, if God did not specifically guide a Christian through that change. I would suspect anyone reading those passages, just selling out, emptying their pockets, and take off walking to be as messed up as Forrest Gump.

No scripture commands Christians to always sell and give away. If the Lord directs that, it can be a great blessing all around. If He doesn't confirm that, it would likely become a disaster.
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Acts 5:3-4 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.[/COLOR]

It was entirely voluntary, not required, not commanded of anyone to sell all and give it to the poor. The feast was the reason for the crowd assembled that time of year. An offering was taken to support the seasonal crowd, the Jews happy to host the feast attendees. But to expect them to continue support would be a gross overestimation of the Jews at that time. The Jews persecuted Christians before and after that meeting, and would not have so easily parted with resources if they knew those thousands of Jews would choose to believe in Jesus.

I realize this won't matter to you, but for the sake of others it had to be said. If someone thinks God wants them to sell all and give it all away, pray about it, study the scriptures, fast, seek counsel of pastors, and wait for a direct confirming path only God could reveal.
 
unless solidly confirmed as His path.
I can see that no matter what I say now it won't change your mind. That is okay, because that is your free will.

For the sake of people reading on, I will comment on what you shared.

Firstly, we must get one thing crystal clear. Who is our Lord? Who is our final authority, Paul or Jesus? If anywhere in the Bible including Paul (or anyone else) seems to contradict Jesus, then I will go with Jesus every time. Whoever we listen to, is the person we will follow. Jesus' lambs knows His voice, and they won't go to another Shepherd. I don't believe Paul contradicts Jesus, rather how people interpret what Paul says is twisted for their own destruction (as Peter expressed).

It is correct that we should take care of our families. But what if our families turn from God? Should we follow them instead of following Jesus? If our families are willing to follow us, then do you think God will allow a family that is stepping out in faith to just become a beggar on the street?

Your main argument that once someone forsakes all that they have, they will just be a nuisance to society. I guess this is what you must believe of Jesus since this is how He lived during His ministry. Besides the point, I think what this really exposes is our lack of faith in God and His promises. Jesus says in Mark 10:28-30,"

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
If someone truly believes that God is real, then why should it seem impossible that we can still survive without having a job or if we sold everything we had in obedience to God? Again, I believe it is lack of faith in God. What I hear when you say that someone that follows Jesus will just become a beggar; I hear someone not believing that our Almighty Heavenly Father can provide for His children WITHOUT these physical things...

Your other point is how people will just become lazy and good for nothing people after selling everything. Here's a question to think about, if you weren't getting paid at your current job, then would you still be working there? If yes, then work their for love instead of money. Ask to not get paid a cent for doing the work. This will show our REAL reason for doing what we are currently doing.

Sure we put on a masquerade that we are working and have all this stuff for God and to help the poor... but are we really? Look at where our money is going. Is it going to fulfill God's work, or is it to buy more stuff for ourselves and our family? While the rest of the world gets the leftovers (if that)?

I agree that shouldn't just be lazy and not work when they sell all that they have, rather they won't be working for the purpose of making money. They have a new boss; a new master; a new breadwinner. What they do each day is determined by what our new Boss asks of us. It is then His responsibility to provide for us and our families, because that is His promise to us. Seek Ye FIRST the kingdom of God and ALL its Righteousness, THEN All these other things will be added onto us (Matthew 6:33). Do we believe Jesus when He tells us this? If so, then why would the thought of not working for money or selling our things scare us so much? Food for thought.

Lastly, I don't know where you got the idea that Jesus didn't command us to sell all that we have. He said it to the multitudes (Luke 12:33), He said it to His disciples, (Luke 14:33), He said it to a rich man who wanted to know what He must do to enter eternal life (Luke 18:22), and the first century Christians followed the same pattern after the day of pentacost (Acts 2:44-45 & Acts 4:34-35). No where in any of these contexts does it Jesus say that we should only do this "if we feel led". What more evidence do you need to feel led, then your Lord Jesus commanded you to do it? I personally feel it is a cop out to not obey Jesus on this, and justify this on the basis of "not feeling led". God has already told us we should do this. Why should we take this teaching any less serious than John 3:16? In both passages it uses the word, "Whosoever". This isn't referring to only one person, rather it is 'whosoever'.

We choose to listen to the things that 'tickle our ears', but on judgment day when we are judged by Jesus' words (John 12:48), we will have a lot to answer for if we stand before God and tell Him that we didn't feel 'led' to obey His sons teachings, even though it is clearly expressed in red and white in the Bible.

I will just ask all people to question their motives behind why they are arguing the point they are arguing. Is it because they want to get closer to God? or is it because what is being shared is uncomfortable, and we don't want to deal with it?

Our Lord is coming back soon brothers and sisters. It is about time we open up the Bible and listen to His words as expressed through the Word of God (I am not talking about the Bible, I am talking about Jesus). IF you do this, and you ask God to allow you to 'hear what you don't want to hear', then I am certain God will bring to remembrance, everything that His son Jesus told you to do.

Even now you are experiencing the connections between what I am saying and what you read in the past of what Jesus is saying. Therefore, be baptized in the name of the Father, son, and the Holy Ghost.
Amen
 
Active Member
Opposed to the doctrine of not working for money.

Anyone claiming to be doing what Jesus said, only that, with the signs He said would follow, would have to be witnessed raising the dead. Have you done that? Not just tried it, but done it?

Casting out devils?

Laying hands on the sick unto their healing/recovery?

Taking up serpents and drinking poison with immunity?

Spoke to a tree, a mountain, to their removal according to your words?

Turning water into fine wine?

Caught a fish without bait and found a coin in the mouth enough to pay your taxes?

The apostles did many such things, followed by some "Christians" who dismiss those signs and most all other manifestations of the Spirit as passed away with the apostles.

So what miracles do you do, like Jesus' disciples did? Will you go feed crowds of thousands, rather than ask Jesus what we'll eat with all those folks around us?

You might be a famous healer preacher, so help me find you. Smith Wigglesworth made the front pages of newspapers doing miracles and sweeping the gospel over crowds.

How is it you have access to the internet? Since you are apparently supposed to sell out and forsake all, you are in violation even if you do it all on a free phone with free internet, supplied by Uncle Sam, paid for by taxpayers who finance such "benefits" by working for money. Do you spend days at a taxpayer funded library? Or does money just come to you miraculously,? If it does why not give it away too?

Are we to go about with empty pockets? No. Jesus told the apostles to begin taking money and extra clothing, and buy a sword, just before He ascended. That signaled a closure of divesting oneself of everything to follow Him. When the apostles did that, Jesus provided, by miracle or by His supporters, and the boy with the fish and bread. Do you realize some things Jesus said were prophetic, that most of those were fulfilled soon after uttered, not to be repeated once He accomplished His mission?

Instead, why not be also a follower of Paul who clears up your misunderstandings.
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Colossians 3:22-25 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.[/COLOR]

At least be willing to be a servant, somehow earning your own bread, while serving the our Lord. Jesus fed the thousands, but left them all to return to do their thing back home. Those who caught up with Him were chastened:

Here's a really pertinent reason for keeping employment:

If not willing to work for money, how shall we contribute:
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Ephesians 4:28 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [/COLOR]

Paul worked his way through three missions, not being like a baby birdie with mouth open in a nest.

The birds might feed you, while you have no income to help someone who is destitute, unless perhaps you have a miraculous money tree in the yard. OH, but you will have to sell it or give it to the poor.
I think I see it now. That verse offends some people, so they reject Paul. Is that it? The doctrine of not working for money would seem to please beatnik Dobie Gillis, and people standing at street intersections begging, even when proved to live better than many who do work, collecting hundreds a day and pawning gifted jewelry, bicycles, motorcycles, and cars and more, according to our police chief.

That doctrine ends with
[COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]Luke 22:35-37 (KJV)
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.[/COLOR]

Get a job, start a business, work for a living, so you can be a productive citizen able to pull your own weight and help someone else besides giving them words only. Let's not take on the idea of being monks in monasteries, the closest people have gotten to lifetimes free of working for money. Even they had to work, doing laundry, keeping a garden, survivalists actually living more of the flesh to survive than most Christians who work a third of their hours a day.

The key is balance. Not loving money, or hoarding the plenty God supplies. Give and men will give to you accordingly. Work, give, receive. That's God's will. What you give is like loaning to God, who will repay. He won't tell you to give to the point of hurting your family.
 
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]
Opposed to the doctrine of not working for money.

Anyone claiming to be doing what Jesus said, only that, with the signs He said would follow, would have to be witnessed raising the dead. Have you done that? Not just tried it, but done it?

Casting out devils?

Laying hands on the sick unto their healing/recovery?

Taking up serpents and drinking poison with immunity?

Spoke to a tree, a mountain, to their removal according to your words?

Turning water into fine wine?

Caught a fish without bait and found a coin in the mouth enough to pay your taxes?

The apostles did many such things, followed by some "Christians" who dismiss those signs and most all other manifestations of the Spirit as passed away with the apostles.

So what miracles do you do, like Jesus' disciples did? Will you go feed crowds of thousands, rather than ask Jesus what we'll eat with all those folks around us?

You might be a famous healer preacher, so help me find you. Smith Wigglesworth made the front pages of newspapers doing miracles and sweeping the gospel over crowds.

How is it you have access to the internet? Since you are apparently supposed to sell out and forsake all, you are in violation even if you do it all on a free phone with free internet, supplied by Uncle Sam, paid for by taxpayers who finance such "benefits" by working for money. Do you spend days at a taxpayer funded library? Or does money just come to you miraculously,? If it does why not give it away too?

Are we to go about with empty pockets? No. Jesus told the apostles to begin taking money and extra clothing, and buy a sword, just before He ascended. That signaled a closure of divesting oneself of everything to follow Him. When the apostles did that, Jesus provided, by miracle or by His supporters, and the boy with the fish and bread. Do you realize some things Jesus said were prophetic, that most of those were fulfilled soon after uttered, not to be repeated once He accomplished His mission?

Instead, why not be also a follower of Paul who clears up your misunderstandings.
Colossians 3:22-25 (KJV)
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

At least be willing to be a servant, somehow earning your own bread, while serving the our Lord. Jesus fed the thousands, but left them all to return to do their thing back home. Those who caught up with Him were chastened:

Here's a really pertinent reason for keeping employment:

If not willing to work for money, how shall we contribute:
Ephesians 4:28 (KJV)
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Paul worked his way through three missions, not being like a baby birdie with mouth open in a nest.

The birds might feed you, while you have no income to help someone who is destitute, unless perhaps you have a miraculous money tree in the yard. OH, but you will have to sell it or give it to the poor.
I think I see it now. That verse offends some people, so they reject Paul. Is that it? The doctrine of not working for money would seem to please beatnik Dobie Gillis, and people standing at street intersections begging, even when proved to live better than many who do work, collecting hundreds a day and pawning gifted jewelry, bicycles, motorcycles, and cars and more, according to our police chief.

That doctrine ends with
Luke 22:35-37 (KJV)
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Get a job, start a business, work for a living, so you can be a productive citizen able to pull your own weight and help someone else besides giving them words only. Let's not take on the idea of being monks in monasteries, the closest people have gotten to lifetimes free of working for money. Even they had to work, doing laundry, keeping a garden, survivalists actually living more of the flesh to survive than most Christians who work a third of their hours a day.

The key is balance. Not loving money, or hoarding the plenty God supplies. Give and men will give to you accordingly. Work, give, receive. That's God's will. What you give is like loaning to God, who will repay. He won't tell you to give to the point of hurting your family.
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[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]"If I came in my own name you would accept me, but since I come in the name of my Father, you reject me." This is consequentlly what you are doing.

I digress...

I will not reply to you on a personal level, rather I will respond to your questions, since as I said in my last email, you are not wanting to have a conversation, rather you are wanting to debate your point without. This reply is for those that will read this at a future time.

Opposed to the doctrine of not working for money.

BACK TO ME: This seems clear to me. One thing to make clear is that this doctrine was started by Jesus, so by saying you are opposed to this doctrine, then you are saying you are opposing Jesus.

Anyone claiming to be doing what Jesus said, only that, with the signs He said would follow, would have to be witnessed raising the dead. Have you done that? Not just tried it, but done it?

Casting out devils?

Laying hands on the sick unto their healing/recovery?

Taking up serpents and drinking poison with immunity?

Spoke to a tree, a mountain, to their removal according to your words?

Turning water into fine wine?

Caught a fish without bait and found a coin in the mouth enough to pay your taxes?


The apostles did many such things, followed by some "Christians" who dismiss those signs and most all other manifestations of the Spirit as passed away with the apostles.
So what miracles do you do, like Jesus' disciples did? Will you go feed crowds of thousands, rather than ask Jesus what we'll eat with all those folks around us?

You might be a famous healer preacher, so help me find you. Smith Wigglesworth made the front pages of newspapers doing miracles and sweeping the gospel over crowds.



Back to me: I really think these questions are a red herring to the main point, and was just used as a personal attack on the messenger (Jesus), rather than touching on the message. The simple question that needs to be asked: Am *I* doing or have done any of these things? If not, then you are putting yourself in the same boat as someone that isn't a true believer. I don't think, however, that you must do miracles in order to be a Christian. There is strong evidence that this part of Mark was added to the Bible. That point aside, Jesus says, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks for a sign", if this is what we are seeking for as "proof", then we are no different from the Jews that Jesus called a wicked generation. Any miracles that are done, should be kept a secret between God and you alone (Matthew 6). These questions shouldn't be asked by anyone that understands this, because these questions are a way to tempt the person to disobey Jesus' command about doing miracles in secret.

How is it you have access to the internet? Since you are apparently supposed to sell out and forsake all, you are in violation even if you do it all on a free phone with free internet, supplied by Uncle Sam, paid for by taxpayers who finance such "benefits" by working for money. Do you spend days at a taxpayer funded library? Or does money just come to you miraculously,? If it does why not give it away too?

BACK TO ME: Again, this is a red herring. I was even surprised that you used this argument, since I answered this question in my last email. It amazes me how you are trying to tell me how I should go about forsaking all, when you haven't done it yourself. Why is it you feel like you have the authority or experience to tell me this, when you haven't done it yourself? I think pondering this question will show you (and others reading) what kind of spirit is controlling your responses to me.

I'll give the answer again: “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for My sake and for the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundredfold in the present age— houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, along with persecutions— and to receive eternal life in the age to come."

This is an amazing promise isn't it? Yes, I did have to forsake my laptop and things like houses and families for the sake of the gospel. Jesus held to His word and gave me back 100 times what I had! Isn't that amazing? Of course, it would be to those that can see the faith that must come with making such a decision to forsake all in obedience to what Jesus said.

Also, I don't find evidence that the disciples forsook all after every day. Jesus even had a money bag that they used to keep money from the people that donated to them. God provided them things like boats and food as they preached, but if God said that they didn't need it, then they would forsake it. If God said to use this tool for His work, then they would use it. The tools are given as and when God decides. If we are not willing to forsake something, then we must call into question the reason why we are holding onto it.

Are we to go about with empty pockets? No. Jesus told the apostles to begin taking money and extra clothing, and buy a sword, just before He ascended. That signaled a closure of divesting oneself of everything to follow Him. When the apostles did that, Jesus provided, by miracle or by His supporters, and the boy with the fish and bread. Do you realize some things Jesus said were prophetic, that most of those were fulfilled soon after uttered, not to be repeated once He accomplished His mission?

BACK TO ME: I find it very hard to believe that Jesus only meant to obey Him during a span of 3 and a half years. I think this argument is used to try and justify disobedience to everything else that Jesus taught. Of course, this doctrine is fabricated for the purpose of people willfully disobeying Jesus and still wanting to call themselves Christians. A scripture to support this is in reference to the Holy spirit. We both can agree that the Holy spirit came after Jesus' ascension and on Pentacost. In John 14:26 Jesus says,"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Can you see that the job of the Holy spirit is to remind us of what Jesus said? Why would the Holy spirit teach us to remember what Jesus said, if we are suppose to throw Jesus' teachings out the window "after they were uttered"? [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Instead, why not be also a 'follower of Paul' who clears up your misunderstandings.[/COLOR][/COLOR]


[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Back To Me: This is the cornerstone of your faith. This speaks volumes. No. I won't be a follower of Paul. I am a follower of Jesus. Did Paul save me? Am I baptized into Paul? (1 Corinthians 1) Why are you using Paul to negate Jesus? Is Paul words or ministry more inspired than Jesus? Did Paul come and do things better than Jesus? All of this is all implied when someone uses Paul to negate Jesus. The only misunderstanding is the connection between a follower of Paul and a Christian (follower of Jesus). This, however, isn't the misunderstanding I am having. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Let's see what Paul has to say about you using him to negate Jesus. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Galatians 1:8-9[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]It's difficult to believe that the gospel Paul preached was different from the one that Jesus preached. Nevertheless, if Paul contradicts Christ, the Son of God, the Cornerstone, then in the words of Paul, let him be ACCURSED! [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Though, Paul doesn't contradict Christ, however he did backslide in his ministry. Paul isn't infallible. Jesus is. Men that uses the words of Paul and twists them (to their own destruction) do so in order to fulfill their will and not Jesus'. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Colossians 3:22-25 (KJV) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

At least be willing to be a servant, somehow earning your own bread, while serving the our Lord. Jesus fed the thousands, but left them all to return to do their thing back home. Those who caught up with Him were chastened:[/COLOR]


[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: As I mentioned, Paul doesn't contradict Christ. I am again surprised that you are using this argument. Paul was talking about literal slaves. I think we both know this. Nevertheless, this can still be relevant to those people that are slaves to money, yet believe they are free. I agree that we should be servants, but to say that we are suppose to 'earn our own bread' isn't true. Jesus says in Matthew 6 that it is God's job to provide for us all our material needs (Matthew 6:33). I think the confusion in your mind is that if we stop working for money, then we will just be beggars on the streets (something you say later on). I am not saying that is what we should become. Since this is your impression, then you must believe Jesus was just a sponge on society that only survived through donations and generosity of others. You believe that He would have been better off getting a job and working, instead of preaching the gospel full-time. Of course you won't openly admit this, but if we are being honest and seeing that these disagreements isn't with me, but with the teachings of Jesus, then we will see that you are accusing Jesus of the same things you are accusing me, a follower of Jesus. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Your last point about Jesus sending people away to apparently "go back to work for money" isn't true. You cleverly used the phrase 'to do their "thing" back home, because you knew you couldn't straight out and say that Jesus sent them back to work for money. This would have been blatantly wrong, so you tried to get this point across without being straight forward. You then went on to say that those that kept following Jesus were in the wrong for following Him and not going back and work for money. Again, please check your spirit in what you are saying. Is following Jesus, the Lamb, something we are not suppose to do and will be rebuked on judgment day for?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Those that followed Jesus wasn't chastised because they followed Him, rather they were chastised for following Him for the wrong reason. Jesus was clear that they were only after Him for the bread they can get, not because they wanted to truly follow Him. The same is true today for professing churches. They claim to be Christians, but when Jesus comes and shares with them what He wants them to do, they turn their backs and show their true colors. At least in Bible times they were up front about such rejection of Jesus and His teachings. Now people still want the respectability with proclaiming Christianity, without having to obey a single thing the founder of Christianity said. The hypocrisy of this is astonishing. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Ephesians 4:28 (KJV)
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
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[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Using Paul again to negate Jesus. Can you see the trend in this? No where does Paul say to work for money. True he does say to labour, but why are we assuming that Paul wants us to labour for money? Especially since His Lord Jesus taught us not to? Sounds like twisting of scripture to me.

Paul worked his way through three missions, not being like a baby birdie with mouth open in a nest.
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[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME:You are not saying this comment to me, rather to Him that sent me... Read 1 Corinthians 9 verse 7-11 for your answer to this.

The birds might feed you, while you have no income to help someone who is destitute, unless perhaps you have a miraculous money tree in the yard. OH, but you will have to sell it or give it to the poor.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: This sounds more like an insult to me, rather than the message. I can understand this, since the message can't be refuted, what people must resort to is trying to discredit the messenger. They tried the same thing with Jesus, but the sincere will see the truth with or without me. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I think I see it now. That verse offends some people, so they reject Paul. Is that it? [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I am not sure what verse offends people so that they reject Paul? I think your spirit might have been wanting to say Jesus instead of Paul, but you decided against it? I am not sure, but something to consider.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]The doctrine of not working for money would seem to please beatnik Dobie Gillis, and people standing at street intersections begging, even when proved to live better than many who do work, collecting hundreds a day and pawning gifted jewelry, bicycles, motorcycles, and cars and more, according to our police chief.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: Why are you calling Jesus a "beatnik Dobie Gillis who stands on a street corner begging and pawning items"?
"If they call the owner of the house Beelzabub, how much more will they call His servants?" [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]That doctrine ends with[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Luke 22:35-37 (KJV)
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I am at least happy you used Jesus in this rebuke. As you can guess, you are interpreting this the way that fits your position, rather than letting it speak for itself. Are we to believe that by Jesus saying this we are suppose to reject all of what He taught? What He called to be the rock of our faith (Matthew 7:23-25)? Seriously, this is eternal life we are talking about! Let us see the seriousness of this and let Jesus smash us on the rock of His teachings! [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Jesus said this so He can fulfill the scripture, "[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end." Jesus needed to fulfill this so He commanded them to go and look like people who are thieves/transgressors. This is the only scripture that Jesus indicates "Has an end". This scripture was only for the time of His arrest until His crucifixion. Why is this one outdated? Because the fulfillment was for a specific time (i.e., the time of his arrest). [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]He says it right there: he was reckoned among the transgressors. He had to fulfill this as well, so he told them to carry the things that they wouldn't normally carry, at least not openly. We later find out that two of Jesus' disciples were secretly keeping swords with them. Probably as a back up plan for their lack of faith. But why would Jesus tell them to bring swords, and then rebukes Peter for using it? Why would we take a sword if Jesus taught us to love our enemies? Does that mean we should go and kill our enemies for the name of Jesus? During the crusades they probably used this same verse you are using to justify their wars. Are you really wanting to hold to this scripture as the 'proof text' that stops us from obeying the rest of what Jesus taught? [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Get a job, start a business, work for a living, so you can be a productive citizen able to pull your own weight and help someone else besides giving them words only. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: Another personal attack on Jesus. I forgive you for I don't think you realize this. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Let's not take on the idea of being monks in monasteries, the closest people have gotten to lifetimes free of working for money. Even they had to work, doing laundry, keeping a garden, survivalists actually living more of the flesh to survive than most Christians who work a third of their hours a day.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: You don't need to work for money to help people. God can help with or without money. This idea of not working isn't what I am advocating. I am suggesting we should work for God/love, rather than money. God promises to provide for us what we need if we follow Him, so thinking we can't help others without a job, is just an expression of a lack of faith in God and His capabilities. It shows that we have more faith in our job, than we do in our Heavenly Father.

The key is balance. Not loving money, or hoarding the plenty God supplies. Give and men will give to you accordingly. Work, give, receive. That's God's
will.
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[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]BACK TO ME: The key is Jesus; not only His name, but everything He stood for. People that work for money are choosing to Hate God and Love money. Matthew 6:24 is clear about this. You can't serve both. God wants 100% or 0%. Lukewarmness will soon be spewed out of His Kingdom, and the weeds separated from the wheat. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I've done my part in shaking the fence and giving people a chance to make Jesus the Lord of their life; but each person must choose who they will put their trust in: God (quitting your jobs) or Money (continuing to work for money). Our actions will show which one we are putting our faith in.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]As for me and my house, we will put our trust in the Lord.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]In peace
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)] [/COLOR][/COLOR]







[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]





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