Question for Pastors/Leaders

[SpiritLedEd]

Beam, Is any time taken for worship at the beginning of the meeting? Its been my experience that worship is important because God is the guest of honor and deserves to be worshipped, plus it helps people to connect with Him.

SLE

 

[beam]

Hi,

Definately there must be worship, the group can choose to do it before or after. Depending on the flow.

The one thing that really grieves my spirit nowadays is when some churches start with praise and worship, they are so set in their ways and 'time frame', i would experience we only getting warmed up and relaxed to stay focused on the Lord and then 'times up', onto the service now.:shock:

I believe that worship is an absolute integral part of our daily walk with the Lord.

Blessings to you all.

 

[His_will_i_am]

Everything we do should be worship to Him. This is part of tthe understanding which has been lost to many. Worship isn't just singing a few songs. It's much more deep and encompassing than that. When a person who is called to sing sings, that is worship to the Lord, for it gives Him praise and demonstrates His glory. When a person gives a teaching, that is worship because in their teaching they are demonstrating His glory. The same goes for the exercise of all gifts and callings. To limit worship and praise to only meaning the traditional act of corporate singing, takes so much away from the word and expectation.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

i would experience we only getting warmed up and relaxed to stay focused on the Lord and then 'times up', onto the service now

In my church, worship is not a warm-up period leading to the service. Our whole purpose in being there is to worship God and to receive a message of guidance based on His Word. People who say its o.k. to miss the worship and get there in time to listen to the preacher are, I suspect, only lukewarm churchgoers - people who refuse to allow the Lord to really invade their innermost being. I allowed the Lord to invade my innermost being in 1983 and I pray that I will never be so stupid as to let that relationship grow cold.

SLE

 

[His_will_i_am]

People who say its o.k. to miss the worship and get there in time to listen to the preacher are, I suspect, only lukewarm churchgoers - people who refuse to allow the Lord to really invade their innermost being.

This could be true. but it could also be true that one simply isn't called to it or in need of being ministered to through singing.

 

[Giggles4God]

I believe everyone needs to worship. There is something about worshiping God corporately and not alone that I miss when I don't worship along with my fellow believers.

When I am worshiping at church, I look around and see others worshiping and it makes me smile and praise God more. Also, to hear people cry out to God, is an amazing thing. My pastor's have said that we are a crowd of many for an audience of One when we worship.

There may be some people who dislike worship for whatever reason, but when you are in love with Jesus, you find time anywhere to worship Him just for the very breath you take. I am a full-on worshiper of God. I don't hold anything back from Him.

 

[His_will_i_am]

I agree with you. Everyone needs to worship God, because He genuinely deserves it. But I wouldn't call singing corporately worship. I would say that it can be an act of worship. But if one's definition of worship is to mean singing, exclusively, then one's understanding and method of worship is shallow and sadly missing the whole point of what worship is.

 

[Brighthouse]

His will I am, just something to consider,I sure do agree with you on many points,when we enter a new Church, we understand, sometimes that we have gifts that others do not have,and that they need!! The best way I have found in my own life, to help, is just stay humble within yourslef. Don't push the pastor or other head members of the church into thinking your way,even though LOl you are right!! To become a leader, or a head of any deparment,we much first learn how to serve,for the Lord tells us, he that would be the greatest in the Kingdom of God!! YEP!! is to be the servent of all. By you being faithfull in serving the Pastor in any way he sees fit,as well as those who serve under him,why in no time they will eagerly move you up in ranking in there Church.This can take some time of course,but the Lord is testing you as well.remember?? Luke 16:10 He who is faithful in little,is faithful in much. I know those who will be watching you serve,will see Jesus in you so strongly,you will recieve what you desire,and they will recieve what they need!! To be blessed by you!!

 

[His_will_i_am]

The best way I have found in my own life, to help, is just stay humble within yourslef.

What do you mean by humble?

To become a leader, or a head of any deparment,we much first learn how to serve,for the Lord tells us, he that would be the greatest in the Kingdom of God!! YEP!! is to be the servent of all. By you being faithfull in serving the Pastor in any way he sees fit,as well as those who serve under him,why in no time they will eagerly move you up in ranking in there Church.

What you've described is how it's done in the business world. But functioning of the Body and all of its members shouldn't be so. A pastor isn't a CEO nor a boss, and isn't called to be served but to serve. Anyone who sees ministry in this fashion has totally failed to discern the Body of Christ.

Brighthouse, you may not have fully read the whole thread so you may have missed the part where I shared that I'm already a pastor, though that's not my primary calling. I've been in the institutional role and have the Scriptural calling. I understand how one might say the things which you've said in the manner which you've shared them if one was new to one's walk with the Lord. But even then, you're setting up a faulty foundation for those younger in their walk by perpetuating a system and a mindset contrary to that of the Lord's.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

This could be true. but it could also be true that one simply isn't called to it or in need of being ministered to through singing.

You seem to be talking about a ritualistic, self-centered, one hour per week, "eleven o'clock sharp to Twelve o'clock dull" church life; what one might call Bag it and Drag it Retail Christianity where you spend as little time as possible in the shop, pay some money via the collection plate, and leave with your spiritual "merchanise".

Worship is not about us receiving from the Lord, its about us having the joy of ministering praise and thanksgiving to Him for the blessing He showers on us. God wants a 24/7/365 loving interaction with us. He never hangs a "Do Not Worship" sign in front of His throne. He wants us to hang out with Him as much as possible and you can't help but worship Him when you're in such intimate relationship with Him.

SLE

 

[Brighthouse]

His will,I did miss that thank you for telling me,but let me ask you this then,before you were a pastor did you not serve another Pastor over you? For if one does not serve first, how can one ever lead others? The Body of Christ is not a worldly bussiness!! correct!! But it is a Godly bussiness,Jesus said I am about doing my Fathers bussiness,meaning he is always in submission to the Father,so we to must be in submission to someone as well,to me,it is just my opinion,but before I could ever be in any authority,i had a long time when I was under authority,many go the schools to learn,but you know as well as I do,that learning how they want you to be in there religion,is much different then living the Word. All I am saying now that you are a Pastor,is show how they are to be,a servent of the Most High God, which you are.blessing to you!! Humble is knowing you are right,but through love,they learn from you, because you!! are in Christ! and Jesus is in you!Col 1:26-27 just a thought.

 

[His_will_i_am]

Worship is not about us receiving from the Lord, its about us having the joy of ministering praise and thanksgiving to Him for the blessing He showers on us. God wants a 24/7/365 loving interaction with us. He never hangs a "Do Not Worship" sign in front of His throne. He wants us to hang out with Him as much as possible and you can't help but worship Him when you're in such intimate relationship with Him.

Exactly! You put it so well. Every institutionalized assembly which I've ever been to labels the time of corporate singing as 'praise and worship time'. What they fail to recognize is that our acts of worship encompass so much more than that. Many people aren't called to worship Him through singing as others are. So there shouldn't be a guilt trip laid upon those who might miss the time of corporate singing. Most especially if they aren't empowered to worship Him like that, minister to others in that way, or they're not being ministered to in that way themselves.

His will,I did miss that thank you for telling me,but let me ask you this then,before you were a pastor did you not serve another Pastor over you?

No. I may have walked with others who had a pastoral calling. But none of them were over me in an authoritarian sort of way, simply meaning that none of them had the right to make me do what they wanted me to do. This doesn't mean that I didn't glean insights from them, or respect them for whatever maturity they possessed. It just means that I looked at them as equals, simply brothers and sisters. Plus the way in which I came to the Lord and developed may have had something to do with it.

All I am saying now that you are a Pastor,is show how they are to be,a servent of the Most High God, which you are.blessing to you!!

That's part of the point of this thread.

Humble is knowing you are right,but through love,they learn from you, because you!! are in Christ! and Jesus is in you!

I would say that true humility is simply knowing who one is. It's this knowledge which allows us to walk confidently and at the same time never allows us to take position over others that we have no business taking. For instance, as an overseer of an assembly, I don't have the right to dictate who can move in their giftings and callings. That's for the Lord to decide. Many people mistake humility with silence in the face of opposition or to be the act of bowing down/submitting to people in positions of authority.

 

[Boanerges]

Pastor= Shepherd

The office of Pastor is given as a distinct part of the five fold governmental ministries given the job of shepherding the church and helping it come into a state of maturity in Christ. The word Pastor is by definition Shepherd and that (shepherd) is a continual theme throughout the entire bible Old and New Testaments.

Eph 4:11 AndG2532 heG846 gaveG1325 some,G3588 G3303 apostles;G652 andG1161 some,G3588 prophets;G4396 andG1161 some,G3588 evangelists;G2099 andG1161 some,G3588 pastorsG4166 andG2532 teachers;G1320
Eph 4:12 ForG4314 theG3588 perfectingG2677 of theG3588 saints,G40 forG1519 the workG2041 of the ministry,G1248 forG1519 the edifyingG3619 of theG3588 bodyG4983 of Christ:G5547
Eph 4:13 TillG3360 we allG3956 comeG2658 inG1519 theG3588 unityG1775 of theG3588 faith,G4102 andG2532 of theG3588 knowledgeG1922 of theG3588 SonG5207 of God,G2316 untoG1519 a perfectG5046 man,G435 untoG1519 the measureG3358 of the statureG2244 of theG3588 fulnessG4138 of Christ:G5547

From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:

Pastor

poimen (G4166), "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Eph_4:11. "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock, cf. Act_20:28, which with Act_20:17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops); so also in 1Pe_5:1, 1Pe_5:2, "tend the flock...exercising the oversight," RV; this involves tender care and vigilant superintendence. See SHEPHERD.





From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:

Shepherd
SHEP'HERD, n.

1. A man employed in tending, feeding and gaurding sheep in the pasture.

2. A swain; a rural lover.

3. The pastor of a parish, church or congregation; a minister of the gospel who superintends a church or parish, and gived instruction in spiritual things. God and Christ are in Scripture dinominated Shepherds, as they lead, protect and govern their people, and provide for their welfare.


The Lord Himself saw fit to give the church five offices. These were to help it grow and mature and were given to us until the church reaches the fullness of maturity of Christ Himself. Each of these offices have a specific function and are not mentioned in vain and yet they have one common purpose; to lead the flock into maturity in Christ.


The specific word Pastor is used once in the New Testament and eight times the Old Testament (specifically referring to those given charge over God’s people) . This again is referring to a shepherd and that term is used seventy-five time throughout the New and Old Testaments.
The chief Shepperd
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So then what is the job of a Pastor (shepherd)?
A pastor leads the flock to good food (the Word of God)
A pastor leads the sheep to fresh water (the Word of God and the Spirit of God)
A pastor protects the sheep. He will fight for them and lead them to safe pasture. His goal is to see them grow healthy and strong.
A pastor is a companion to the flock.
A pastor is known by his sheep and they find comfort in his voice.

So the office of Pastor is certainly a biblical concept with it's roots deep in the Word of God.

All that being said most of the churches I attend have a specific Pastor. While he generally (but not always ) leads most of the service these churches (groups of believers) have a network of cell churches in which individuals are free to express the gifts and callings they each have. These "cell meetings" or "home groups" are no different than the average "house church". This cuts down on confusion (mentioned by Paul when to many in the Corinthian church tried to minister at once.
Does this method meet everyone's approval? I am sure it does not, but then again what does?
My point- spend less time criticizing other members of the body and more building those weaker vessels up and you will see the glory of God revealed.
Joh 13:34 A newG2537 commandmentG1785 I giveG1325 unto you,G5213 ThatG2443 ye loveG25 one another;G240 asG2531 I have lovedG25 you,G5209 thatG2443 yeG5210 alsoG2532 loveG25 one another.G240
Joh 13:35 ByG1722 thisG5129 shall allG3956 men knowG1097 thatG3754 ye areG2075 myG1698 disciples,G3101 ifG1437 ye haveG2192 loveG26 one to another.G240 G1722

 

[His_will_i_am]

I would say that much of what you've shared, Boanerges, is correct. But there are some questionable things, as well.

3. The pastor of a parish, church or congregation; a minister of the gospel who superintends a church or parish, and gived instruction in spiritual things. God and Christ are in Scripture dinominated Shepherds, as they lead, protect and govern their people, and provide for their welfare.

This is an institutional definition based upon the institutional tradition of how the role functions. I would say that this demonstrates a bias at best and an unclean influence at worse. But I digress.

The Lord Himself saw fit to give the church five offices.

I would say that the Lord saw fit to provide 5 roles, versus offices as the term offices represents and authoritarian structure responsible for the delineation of the clerical class from the laity.

So the office of Pastor is certainly a biblical concept with it's roots deep in the Word of God.

I totally agree. But I would say that the position of 'pastor' which many are familiar with is a foreign concept or a corrupt version of an overseer.

My point- spend less time criticizing other members of the body and more building those weaker vessels up and you will see the glory of God revealed.

Who has criticized anyone? It seems to me that this is nothing more than an intimidation tactic meant to stifle conversation/discussion. If anyone's made unrighteous critiicisms of any brother or sister in the Lord, then by all means call that out. But if not, please don't try to twist what has been shared to equate to unrighteous criticism as a silencing tactic.

 

[Boanerges]

I respect your right to disagree. Have a great day in Christ.

 

[His_will_i_am]

Bumping for others to digest.

 

[happyharold4]

Bumping for others to digest.

Just curious what your thought is on Hebrews 13:17----"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they watch for your soles, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you"

Happy