Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[KingJ]

That is a common understanding among believers, and I agree with your reply but please consider this.

There are disagreements over who the "saints" are that Jesus comes back with at his return. Pre-trib believers say it includes resurrected people who were raptured before the tribulation. Some post-trib believers think the resurrection happens while Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation, AND the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. I believe that both of these theories are incorrect. This reply is to show that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Jesus returns with all his Saints
ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives...

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the SAINTS with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all...

Here are a few issues - NOT ALL!

First, the righteous dead who will rise at the rapture are all raised on the LAST DAY! Not 7 YEARS BEFORE. (John 6:39-40; 6:44; 6:54; 11:24).

Second, to a pre-tribber, which you are not, it would mean that Jesus has to come at least three times in all, once to suffer and die, once to translate (or rapture) the church before the tribulation, and again on the last day for Armageddon.

Nowhere does scripture teach a third coming of Jesus. On the contrary. The Parousia is mentioned 4 times in Mathew 24 in V.3, 27, 37, and 39.

PAROUSIA is also 'singular' in 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:1), 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 John 2:28). Notice they are all in the singular!

These scriptures show Jesus is coming back with his "saints." The big question is, "who are the saints"?

WHO ARE 'ALL HIS SAINTS' WHOM JESUS COMES BACK WITH AT THE RAPTURE?

This bible study shows that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are only holy angels.

www.logosapostolic.org

You are assuming all of those passages must describe the exact same moment, but that is the very point under debate. You are combining them first, then using that combination as proof.

In Matt 24, Jesus is speaking specifically about events after the tribulation and about the gathering of the elect on earth. That passage never mentions resurrection, never mentions the dead in Christ, and never mentions believers being caught up.

In contrast, 1 Thess 4 explicitly includes:

• the dead in Christ rising
• believers being caught up
• meeting the Lord in the air

Those are different details and a different focus.

You are also equating “last trump” in 1 Cor 15 with the trumpet of Matt 24, but the text never says they are the same trumpet. One is connected to resurrection, the other to gathering Israel. That is an assumption, not an explicit link.

Also, “parousia” simply means coming or presence. It does not define a single moment. The same word is used for extended events, not just a split-second return.

Your argument only works if:

1. Matthew 24 = Thessalonians 4
2. last trump = Matthew trumpet
3. parousia = one single instant

But none of those are explicitly stated. They are assumptions being inserted.

 

[KingJ]

That is a common understanding among believers, and I agree with your reply but please consider this.

There are disagreements over who the "saints" are that Jesus comes back with at his return. Pre-trib believers say it includes resurrected people who were raptured before the tribulation. Some post-trib believers think the resurrection happens while Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation, AND the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. I believe that both of these theories are incorrect. This reply is to show that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Jesus returns with all his Saints
ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives...

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the SAINTS with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all...

Here are a few issues - NOT ALL!

First, the righteous dead who will rise at the rapture are all raised on the LAST DAY! Not 7 YEARS BEFORE. (John 6:39-40; 6:44; 6:54; 11:24).

Second, to a pre-tribber, which you are not, it would mean that Jesus has to come at least three times in all, once to suffer and die, once to translate (or rapture) the church before the tribulation, and again on the last day for Armageddon.

Nowhere does scripture teach a third coming of Jesus. On the contrary. The Parousia is mentioned 4 times in Mathew 24 in V.3, 27, 37, and 39.

PAROUSIA is also 'singular' in 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:1), 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 John 2:28). Notice they are all in the singular!

These scriptures show Jesus is coming back with his "saints." The big question is, "who are the saints"?

WHO ARE 'ALL HIS SAINTS' WHOM JESUS COMES BACK WITH AT THE RAPTURE?

This bible study shows that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are only holy angels.

www.logosapostolic.org

You’re creating a false dilemma here. A pre-trib view does not require “three comings,” only two.

Christ’s first coming — incarnation.
Christ’s second coming — which includes phases:

• coming for His saints
• coming with His saints

That is still one overall second coming, not two separate returns. Also, scripture does show believers returning with Him, not just angels.

Rev 19:14 describes armies in heaven following Him, clothed in fine linen, which earlier in 19:8 is defined as the righteousness of the saints. That strongly suggests redeemed believers, not angels.

Angels are mentioned separately elsewhere, which implies distinction.

Regarding “last day” in Gospel of John 6, that phrase is used broadly for the end-time period, not necessarily one 24-hour day. Revelation itself shows multiple resurrection-related events within that end period.

Also, “saints” in scripture regularly refers to believers, not angels. For example, Paul addresses living Christians as saints in multiple letters. So restricting the term to angels here is not consistent with normal usage.

So the question “who are the saints?” doesn’t exclude believers, if anything, the broader scriptural usage supports them being included.

 

[KingJ]

For the reader, and in the hope of a fresh reset, I would like to summarise the ten hardest hitting points for discussion. These are pro pre-trib rapture arguments being raised.

1. Not Appointed to Wrath

1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 6:16–17

Believers are explicitly said not to be appointed to wrath. The tribulation is repeatedly described as God’s wrath. Therefore, believers must be removed before that period begins.

2. Unknown Day vs Calculable Tribulation Timeline

Matthew 24:36; Revelation 11:3; 12:6

Jesus says no one knows the day or hour. Yet the tribulation provides measurable time periods (1260 days, 42 months). If the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation, its timing becomes predictable, contradicting the unknown nature.

3. “One Taken, One Left” verse ''Every knee will bow"

Matthew 24:40–41

Selective removal prior to universal judgment suggests a preliminary gathering. As opposed to the end of the great tribulation where every knee will bow.

4. Salvation Criteria During Tribulation Appears Different

Romans 10:9; Revelation 2:10; 14:9–11

Romans teaches salvation through confession and belief. Revelation presents endurance to death and refusal of the mark as decisive for salvation. These are difficult to reconcile as identical conditions, suggesting a distinct tribulation period.

5. Imminency of Christ’s Return

James 5:8; Titus 2:13

Believers are instructed to expect Christ at any moment. If the tribulation must occur first, His return would not be imminent.

6. Removal Pattern Before Judgment

Genesis 19; 2 Peter 2:7–9

God consistently removes or separates the righteous before major judgment (Lot, Noah). This pattern supports removal prior to tribulation.

7. Distinction Between Meeting in the Air and Return to Earth

1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 19:11–14

The rapture describes believers meeting Christ in the air. The second coming describes Christ returning to earth in judgment. These appear to be separate events.

8. Comfort Argument

1 Thessalonians 4:18

The rapture is meant to comfort believers. If it occurs after the great tribulation of suffering, the worse period in all of history Matt 24:21, its not really comforting is it?

9. Israel vs Church Distinction

Daniel 9:24–27; Jeremiah 30:7

The tribulation is described as focused on Israel (“Jacob’s trouble”), implying a different focus than the Church.

10. Moral Argument – God’s Treatment of His Sealed People

Ephesians 1:13

If believers are sealed and accepted, placing them into divine wrath raises questions about consistency with God’s promises.

 

[farmerjoe]

The illustrious KingJ says Jesus never mentions the resurrection. This goes to show you how deceived he is...
Jesus mentions the COMING AKA the...

PAROUSIA Definition -

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   
   
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

 

[farmerjoe]

The illustrious KingJ says

"Also, “parousia” simply means coming or presence. It does not define a single moment."

Is that all you've got? You make no sense at all - Pre-trib, the deceitful nonsense you believe in, line, hook, and sinker has squashed your ability to apply any common sense to this.

In Matt 24, Jesus is speaking specifically about events after the tribulation and about the gathering of the elect on earth. That passage never mentions resurrection, never mentions the dead in Christ, and never mentions believers being caught up.

AGAIN big guy PAROUSIA...
You are deceiving yourself believing your own lies. They call that a pathological liar.

1. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

The illustrious KingJ says, "Never mentions being 'caught up''.

You do know how to comprehend what you read, correct? The crazy thing is you expect one author to describe things in the exact same manner as other authors and if that's all you've got you are incredibly deceiving yourself.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You do know WHO the elect is that Jesus is referring to, correct?

I can only deal with so much pre-trib foolishness because it's demonic and totally contradict Jesus' own words.

See you later - hopefully never better than later.

 

[KingJ]

The illustrious KingJ says Jesus never mentions the resurrection. This goes to show you how deceived he is...
Jesus mentions the COMING AKA the...

PAROUSIA Definition -

1. presence
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

Yes, parousia can refer to Christ’s coming, arrival, or presence. No one disputes that.

What you haven’t shown is this:

• That every use of parousia refers to the exact same moment in time
• That it must include all elements (resurrection, judgment, kingdom) every time it’s used

You are pushing an assumption.

Different passages describing the parousia highlight different aspects:

• Matthew 24 → focuses on judgment and gathering
• 1 Corinthians 15 → focuses on resurrection
• 1 Thessalonians 4 → focuses on believers being caught up

Same broader event (His coming), but described from different angles, not necessarily compressed into a single instant.

So repeating “parousia” doesn’t prove your case.

 

[KingJ]

The illustrious KingJ says


Is that all you've got? You make no sense at all - Pre-trib, the deceitful nonsense you believe in, line, hook, and sinker has squashed your ability to apply any common sense to this.



AGAIN big guy PAROUSIA...
You are deceiving yourself believing your own lies. They call that a pathological liar.

1. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

The illustrious KingJ says, "Never mentions being 'caught up''.

You do know how to comprehend what you read, correct? The crazy thing is you expect one author to describe things in the exact same manner as other authors and if that's all you've got you are incredibly deceiving yourself.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You do know WHO the elect is that Jesus is referring to, correct?

I can only deal with so much pre-trib foolishness because it's demonic and totally contradict Jesus' own words.

See you later - hopefully never better than later.

You’re trying to use Matthew 24 to disprove a pre-trib rapture, but your argument depends entirely on one assumption, that Matthew 24 is describing the exact same event as 1 Thessalonians 4.

You can’t assume it and then use that assumption as proof.

Matthew 24 describes:

• Angels gathering the elect
• After the tribulation
• From across the earth

1 Thessalonians 4 describes:

• The dead in Christ rising
• Living believers being caught up
• Meeting the Lord in the air

If they are the same event, you need to prove that, not just assert it by appealing to the word “parousia” or by assuming all gatherings and all trumpets are identical.

 

[farmerjoe]

You’re trying to use Matthew 24 to disprove a pre-trib rapture, but your argument depends entirely on one assumption, that Matthew 24 is describing the exact same event as 1 Thessalonians 4.

You can’t assume it and then use that assumption as proof.

Matthew 24 describes:

• Angels gathering the elect
• After the tribulation
• From across the earth

1 Thessalonians 4 describes:

• The dead in Christ rising
• Living believers being caught up
• Meeting the Lord in the air

If they are the same event, you need to prove that, not just assert it by appealing to the word “parousia” or by assuming all gatherings and all trumpets are identical.

You do as pre-tribers have to do to overcome their contradictions which is add another return and add another gathering. Disgusting!

 

[backNforth]

Yes, the word “meet” can be used in a welcoming sense, but the context still determines what happens after the meeting.

"What happens after the meeting" is, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v. 17). Can you say, 'new heaven and new earth'?

The passage in First Epistle to the Thessalonians 4:17 does not say we immediately return to earth. It simply says we meet the Lord in the air and “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The emphasis is on being with Him, not on escorting Him back.

"Escort" or not, what say the scriptures about the matter? This is where you need to concentrate your time i.e. comparing scripture with scripture.

You've made hundreds of posts, here and elsewhere, where you expose your naivete concerning the necessity of comparing scripture with scripture. You've been shown the error of your way, and by others wiser than I. Your clickbait OP's are dog piles posing as gourmet food, revealing the nature of your inner heart.

I no longer post here for your sake, but for others who are truth seekers - if nothing more than to warn them of your misguided crusade.

If the purpose was simply escorting Him to earth immediately, the “caught up in the clouds” detail becomes unnecessary. Why not just say “He comes and we gather to Him”?

This is mere speculation that would feed your undiscerning flesh, a trap for young players. You are attempting to define terms with your carnal mind, to support your carnal doctrine, rather than letting scripture interpret scripture. It's what is causing you to display such a nasty edge in this forum and others. Worse, it's an open door to further demonic influence when you go off in your self-will like that.

Not that you will read them (but others might), here are all 13 appearances of the same phrase (e.g. caught up). Have a read and wise up. "...speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

The text simply does not say we return immediately.

"The text" isn't required to abide your agenda. Rather, the entirety of scripture, as you were shown, precisely explains the usage and meaning of "meet." Integral to the definition of "meet" is "return".

Iron sharpens iron. It's time to sharpen your Sword.

 

[KingJ]

You do as pre-tribers have to do to overcome their contradictions which is add another return and add another gathering. Disgusting!

Disgusting?

You are guilty of:

1. Inserting assumptions to make your theory work.
2. Ignoring the fact that I have accused your belief of misrepresenting God as evil. Providing sound and logical reasons for it.
3. Passing many personal insults.

If I did not believe in a pre-trib rapture, I would make sure to properly address the accusations of my belief that appear to incriminate God.

Properly representing Him as good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 is our one job as Christians 2 Cor 5:20.

 

[KingJ]

"What happens after the meeting" is, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v. 17). Can you say, 'new heaven and new earth'?


"Escort" or not, what say the scriptures about the matter? This is where you need to concentrate your time i.e. comparing scripture with scripture.

You've made hundreds of posts, here and elsewhere, where you expose your naivete concerning the necessity of comparing scripture with scripture. You've been shown the error of your way, and by others wiser than I. Your clickbait OP's are dog piles posing as gourmet food, revealing the nature of your inner heart.

I no longer post here for your sake, but for others who are truth seekers - if nothing more than to warn them of your misguided crusade.


This is mere speculation that would feed your undiscerning flesh, a trap for young players. You are attempting to define terms with your carnal mind, to support your carnal doctrine, rather than letting scripture interpret scripture. It's what is causing you to display such a nasty edge in this forum and others. Worse, it's an open door to further demonic influence when you go off in your self-will like that.

Not that you will read them (but others might), here are all 13 appearances of the same phrase (e.g. caught up). Have a read and wise up. "...speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."


"The text" isn't required to abide your agenda. Rather, the entirety of scripture, as you were shown, precisely explains the usage and meaning of "meet." Integral to the definition of "meet" is "return".

Iron sharpens iron. It's time to sharpen your Sword.

You're still assuming your conclusion. 1 Thess 4:17 says we meet the Lord and remain with Him. It does not state a return to earth. ‘Meet’ does not inherently mean ‘escort back.’ You're reading that into the text.

 

[KingJ]

I no longer post here for your sake, but for others who are truth seekers - if nothing more than to warn them of your misguided crusade.

Well, if you really feel that way, I would expect you to take a proper stab at the OP or post #143. Instead, you ignore the points raised, particularly those suggesting your view incriminates God, and focus on a single personal theory for rejecting a pre-trib rapture.

 

[backNforth]

I would expect you to take a proper stab at the OP or post #143.

It's already been done - repeatedly - and you know it.

Instead, you ignore the points raised, particularly those suggesting your view incriminates God, and focus on a single personal theory for rejecting a pre-trib rapture

I don't cast pearls, even as your scripture-twisting crusade has long lost any credibility.

Concerning your hackneyed 'Top 10' list, #3 is your worst nightmare, with #7 a close second. When either fail, the whole list is forfeit (the remaining 8 items are bleeding heart non sequiturs - Hail Mary's for the deceived masses).

However, it can be a good thing that you finally posted your Top Ten, because it clues everyone in as to where your discernment level is. I realize that it took some time before you decided to do that, as it's risky for you and potentially disastrous to your cause. Most ppl are too lazy to study for themselves, instead relying on their lying hireling pastors, and among that crowd is where your cleverly titled inflammatory OP's can gain traction.

you ignore the points raised, particularly those suggesting your view incriminates God,

Rather, I "ignore posts" that use clickbait, ala "your view incriminates God," as their cause celebre.

...and focus on a single personal theory for rejecting a pre-trib rapture

Rather, I "focus on" the scriptural truth and reject nonsense such as a pre-trib rapture theory.

You're still assuming your conclusion. 1 Thess 4:17 says we meet the Lord and remain with Him. It does not state a return to earth. ‘Meet’ does not inherently mean ‘escort back.’ You're reading that into the text.

You are wrong and scripture is right. The "return" is implicit with the word "meet", as scripture itself tells us. A simple reading of the 4 appearances of the word "meet" is a no-brainer. But you still insist in trusting your carnal mind, which prevents any true discernment from taking root. That, my friend, is the definition (and a sign) of a spiritual strong hold. Presently, you are bound and your voluminous one-way carnal posts, here and elsewhere, evince that.

Unteachability and ignorance walk hand-in-hand. Your dilemma may be resolved only with knee pads.

 

[Bill]

It's already been done - repeatedly - and you know it.


I don't cast pearls, even as your scripture-twisting crusade has long lost any credibility.

Concerning your hackneyed 'Top 10' list, #3 is your worst nightmare, with #7 a close second. When either fail, the whole list is forfeit (the remaining 8 items are bleeding heart non sequiturs - Hail Mary's for the deceived masses).

However, it can be a good thing that you finally posted your Top Ten, because it clues everyone in as to where your discernment level is. I realize that it took some time before you decided to do that, as it's risky for you and potentially disastrous to your cause. Most ppl are too lazy to study for themselves, instead relying on their lying hireling pastors, and among that crowd is where your cleverly titled inflammatory OP's can gain traction.


Rather, I "ignore posts" that use clickbait, ala "your view incriminates God," as their cause celebre.


Rather, I "focus on" the scriptural truth and reject nonsense such as a pre-trib rapture theory.


You are wrong and scripture is right. The "return" is implicit with the word "meet", as scripture itself tells us. A simple reading of the 4 appearances of the word "meet" is a no-brainer. But you still insist in trusting your carnal mind, which prevents any true discernment from taking root. That, my friend, is the definition (and a sign) of a spiritual strong hold. Presently, you are bound and your voluminous one-way carnal posts, here and elsewhere, evince that.

Unteachability and ignorance walk hand-in-hand. Your dilemma may be resolved only with knee pads.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I always ask the pre-tribors or the mid Trippers for that matter what sign will happen when they know that they missed their mark?

I mean do they think it's going to happen before the breaking of the six seal? Because the six seal is kind of an interesting deal all by itself. The very last line in The Sixth Seal tells me that nobody's going to know when it happens until it happens. So are they using that as a basis of when they're going to do the Great Escape? And I always wonder if God has the Hilton Hotel up there or something for all the great escapers you know LOL.

So if they use the six seal as the marker, let's say they feel that it's going to happen first and then immediately after will be the rapture. What happens afterwards when the Rapture doesn't take place. What's the next marker they're going to use to say okay we didn't fully understand this so now we're going to say that when all hell breaks loose like the two witnesses are in Jerusalem that's when we're going to go. And then when that doesn't work what's the next marker.

I mean if you think about it eventually they'll get it right sort of. Because when they finally get it right Jesus will be coming down and we'll meet him up halfway. Sorry being a little sarcastic

You know I kind of feel like Elijah did when he was sitting there poking fun at the prophets, "come on shout louder maybe your God is sleeping"

 

[KingJ]

It's already been done - repeatedly - and you know it.

If it’s been done repeatedly, it should be easy to summarise. I’m still waiting for a direct answer to the actual points.

@B-A-C was the only one that actually took a stab at the OP, but he left when his arguments were interrogated.

I don't cast pearls, even as your scripture-twisting crusade has long lost any credibility.

You really don't like correction or debate do you. You always get emotionally butthurt.

Concerning your hackneyed 'Top 10' list, #3 is your worst nightmare, with #7 a close second. When either fail, the whole list is forfeit (the remaining 8 items are bleeding heart non sequiturs - Hail Mary's for the deceived masses).

Why are you running? Each point hits hard and you would realise that if you took a stab at any. This is an epic evade.

However, it can be a good thing that you finally posted your Top Ten, because it clues everyone in as to where your discernment level is. I realize that it took some time before you decided to do that, as it's risky for you and potentially disastrous to your cause. Most ppl are too lazy to study for themselves, instead relying on their lying hireling pastors, and among that crowd is where your cleverly titled inflammatory OP's can gain traction.

If a view logically leads to uncomfortable conclusions, pointing that out isn’t clickbait, it’s testing consistency.

Rather, I "ignore posts" that use clickbait, ala "your view incriminates God," as their cause celebre.

Rather, I "focus on" the scriptural truth and reject nonsense such as a pre-trib rapture theory.

That’s exactly what I’m asking for. Scriptural answers to the points, not general assertions.

You are wrong and scripture is right. The "return" is implicit with the word "meet", as scripture itself tells us. A simple reading of the 4 appearances of the word "meet" is a no-brainer. But you still insist in trusting your carnal mind, which prevents any true discernment from taking root. That, my friend, is the definition (and a sign) of a spiritual strong hold. Presently, you are bound and your voluminous one-way carnal posts, here and elsewhere, evince that.

You keep saying ‘meet’ implies return, without proving it. Scripture says, ‘ever be with the Lord’, not return to earth. The return is still assumed, not stated.

How do you feel knowing that your entire anti pre-trib rapture argument rests on an assumption?

--------------

You’re wasting my time, BacknForth. Somehow I keep expecting more from you and somehow I keep getting disappointed

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I always ask the pre-tribors or the mid Trippers for that matter what sign will happen when they know that they missed their mark?

See post # 4.

I mean do they think it's going to happen before the breaking of the six seal? Because the six seal is kind of an interesting deal all by itself. The very last line in The Sixth Seal tells me that nobody's going to know when it happens until it happens. So are they using that as a basis of when they're going to do the Great Escape? And I always wonder if God has the Hilton Hotel up there or something for all the great escapers you know LOL.

So if they use the six seal as the marker, let's say they feel that it's going to happen first and then immediately after will be the rapture. What happens afterwards when the Rapture doesn't take place. What's the next marker they're going to use to say okay we didn't fully understand this so now we're going to say that when all hell breaks loose like the two witnesses are in Jerusalem that's when we're going to go. And then when that doesn't work what's the next marker.

I mean if you think about it eventually they'll get it right sort of. Because when they finally get it right Jesus will be coming down and we'll meet him up halfway. Sorry being a little sarcastic

You know I kind of feel like Elijah did when he was sitting there poking fun at the prophets, "come on shout louder maybe your God is sleeping"

Pre-trib doesn’t rely on guessing markers like the sixth seal. The whole point is imminence (it could happen at any moment), with no single required trigger. Yes, Jesus said when we see certain things we should be ready (Luke 21:28), but those are general conditions, not a countdown marker. So we stay watchful without tying the rapture to one specific seal or event.

The tribulation and its end, will be full of markers. This is why I state that Matt 24:36 cannot refer to the end of the tribulation.

 

[KingJ]

I agree. His obsession with the diabolical pre-trib fantasy has deterred me from posting here.

All you did was make a statement that a pre-trib rapture is bad and then posted your single reason for not believing in it. When you were asked to provide reasons for your belief and had your pet theory exposed as an assumption you were making, you threw personal insults and ran from all discussion.

Both your and @backNforth posts here should serve as case studies for how a Christian should not behave when engaging in a debate.

The funniest was BacknForth suggesting I am unteachable when he did not address any argument raised.

Some advice for you two:

“Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self‑confidence.” - Robert Frost
“Lose your temper and you lose the fight.” - Margaret Atwood
"Anger is a brief lunacy" - Horace

 

[Bill]

I agree. His obsession with the diabolical pre-trib fantasy has deterred me from posting here.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Never let other people's opinions stop you from being yourself. Each of us, our parts of the body of God. Each of us are parts of the Church, God's Church. We should never be little ourselves to thinking that our voice is not needed. We never know when the Holy Spirit will work through us to another person

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Never let other people's opinions stop you from being yourself. Each of us, our parts of the body of God. Each of us are parts of the Church, God's Church. We should never be little ourselves to thinking that our voice is not needed. We never know when the Holy Spirit will work through us to another person

Bill, at a high level I agree, that’s a true and encouraging statement. Each of us can be used by God, and we shouldn’t silence ourselves out of fear of others’ opinions.

However, there’s also a responsibility that comes with speaking in His name. If the beliefs we promote end up portraying God in a way that conflicts with His revealed character, we should be willing to re-examine them. Even more so when they are based on assumptions that have been challenged and discussed.

God presents Himself as good and righteous in all His ways (Psalm 145:17). When interpretations imply otherwise, I think it’s important that we carefully reconsider them. In my view, the pre-trib issue falls into that category, as I explained in the OP and in posts 114 and 143.

Sometimes, as Christians, we can become more focused on defending our positions or preserving face in a debate than on ensuring we are representing God accurately.

 

[Bill]

Bill, at a high level I agree, that’s a true and encouraging statement. Each of us can be used by God, and we shouldn’t silence ourselves out of fear of others’ opinions.

However, there’s also a responsibility that comes with speaking in His name. If the beliefs we promote end up portraying God in a way that conflicts with His revealed character, we should be willing to re-examine them. Even more so when they are based on assumptions that have been challenged and discussed.

God presents Himself as good and righteous in all His ways (Psalm 145:17). When interpretations imply otherwise, I think it’s important that we carefully reconsider them. In my view, the pre-trib issue falls into that category, as I explained in the OP and in posts 114 and 143.

Sometimes, as Christians, we can become more focused on defending our positions or preserving face in a debate than on ensuring we are representing God accurately.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I know that you believe wholeheartedly of the pre- tribulation rapture. And I understand that I just have one question for you what are you doing for not the backup plan but if the timeline isn't accurate for you. And I receive the timeline because a lot of people think that okay they're pretty tribulation Raptor will take place before the breaking of The Sixth Seal. So what happens when this breaking the six seal comes along and there's no rapture what then? What is the marker then that they need to go by? Even for yourself when do you say that okay I miss something? When the mark of the beast comes along and it is taking place right in front of you, are you thinking to yourself okay I know the Rapture hasn't taken place yet maybe I'm missing something all together. But I can't take the mark of the beast am I prepared to survive on this planet without the mark of the beast. And this is the problem. Because I know when I read the same scriptures that you quote about one person leaves and one person stays behind people working in a field it doesn't specify that one or the other is a believer. Everybody and their brother thinks that the guy leaving is a Believer okay well what if the other person is a believer that means the one that's left behind who's also believer is Left Behind for a reason. And that means that that person has to go through the tribulation. And it's not up to me or you or anyone else to tell God take me. That's all up to God. So instead of jumping to the conclusion that you're going to be the one jumping up there into heaven why don't we talk about the ones that are being left behind that are still Christians and deeply in love with God and have followed all the scripture, and have no reason to be left behind based on your thinking. What then?