Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[backNforth]

I agree. His obsession with the diabolical pre-trib fantasy has deterred me from posting here.

Concerning his carnal mind and foul mouth, he forfeited a Matthew 18 reproof long ago when he entering a public forum. A tree is known by its fruit, and nothing but rottenness and contention follow his posts. What is singularly amazing is how he can keep a straight face when he uses his data so selectively to disparage his theological opponents - even as he ignores the same data when it undercuts his own delusion.

The doctrinal problems associated with the theological system (known as dispensationalism) that is associated with the pre-trib "rapture" theory are complex, and the controversy is dangerous to the consensus view, because when believers begin to examine their Bibles, they may find other aspects of the rapture system equally dubious. That is particularly bad news for the commercial interests associated with the Cult (e.g. the "Left Behind" series of apocalyptic fiction), for it is a billion dollar cash cow. Indeed, those doctrinal expatriates who have come to see Christianity in a more historic light have already found what kind of hardball is played by those whose bread and butter or, in this case, fragile ego, is at stake.

Those intrepid souls who actually believe the Scripture where Christ tells us "a tree is known by its fruit," might want to study the abysmal history of the origins of the Rapture Cult -- a process many embarked upon decades ago -- and their conclusion is directly related to why many call it a cult in the first place. The short version is, it started as a small study group with occultic practices, but when it grew to the abomination we presently see, its early proponents covered up the origin in order to legitimize the doctrine.

Some would say such assertions are damaging the faith of the millions already immersed in the system, but the Bible not only says it is the truth that will set you free, it ominously tells us that, in the last generation, there will be a wholesale departure from the historic truth of the Gospel. Huge numbers of Christians have been taught this applies to those supposedly "left behind," but the truth is that they are fulfilling this great "falling away" themselves with their refusal to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We have learned that most "Christians" react with antagonism to information that contradicts their programming. We would hope that they would instead re-examine their assumptions through the clear lens of a sincere Biblical analysis. However, one of the most wonderful aspects of the Good News is the fact that "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7). The truth is, the Strong Delusion the LORD promised he would bring is closely related to the lie of the Rapture Cult - and God warned them that "I will choose their delusion" (Isaiah 66:4), "...because they received not the love of the truth...." (II Thessalonians 2:10).

 

[Bill]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.

If you want to reach out to those who are struggling, you must Reach Out from your heart with God's love

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I know that you believe wholeheartedly of the pre- tribulation rapture. And I understand that I just have one question for you what are you doing for not the backup plan but if the timeline isn't accurate for you. And I receive the timeline because a lot of people think that okay they're pretty tribulation Raptor will take place before the breaking of The Sixth Seal. So what happens when this breaking the six seal comes along and there's no rapture what then? What is the marker then that they need to go by? Even for yourself when do you say that okay I miss something? When the mark of the beast comes along and it is taking place right in front of you, are you thinking to yourself okay I know the Rapture hasn't taken place yet maybe I'm missing something all together. But I can't take the mark of the beast am I prepared to survive on this planet without the mark of the beast. And this is the problem. Because I know when I read the same scriptures that you quote about one person leaves and one person stays behind people working in a field it doesn't specify that one or the other is a believer. Everybody and their brother thinks that the guy leaving is a Believer okay well what if the other person is a believer that means the one that's left behind who's also believer is Left Behind for a reason. And that means that that person has to go through the tribulation. And it's not up to me or you or anyone else to tell God take me. That's all up to God. So instead of jumping to the conclusion that you're going to be the one jumping up there into heaven why don't we talk about the ones that are being left behind that are still Christians and deeply in love with God and have followed all the scripture, and have no reason to be left behind based on your thinking. What then?

Good thoughts and question Bill.

Many of us will not be ready for the rapture. We can all think we are save and not be saved. We tend to always move the mark in self assessment when working out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

The context of 'one left and one taken' is that the one being taken is the one who is right with God. I have provided many scriptures and biblical examples (God helping His people escape His wrath) of this happening. I would just be repeating myself at this point.

I will just add that it would make literally zero sense to take the wicked. They need to be tested. There is a common theme throughout scripture of God testing mankind. God placed the devil with Adam and Eve. God allows Rev 2:10 and Rev 14:9-11 to take place to test people. When you grasp the fact that Christians have already been tested and sealed, it should be obvious that the wicked not be the ones taken. Remember that 'taken' in that verse leads to 'being caught up in the air with Jesus' and going to be with Him. As also stated many times with full scripture support. Thus the odds of the wicked being taken is zero.

If I am not raptured, I will just try and get things over with asap. I will hand myself in and endure Rev 2:10. Being grateful to God for giving me a second opportunity at reconciliation with Him.

I will know without a shadow of a doubt that no amount of ''faith'' will save me. Rom 10:9 will not in anyway shape or form be applicable. All that will save me / cause me to be worthy of God's protection, is rejection of the mark of the beast Rev 14:9-11 and if necessary ten days of torment and death Rev 2:10.

God will be with all who reject the mark. That in itself is dedication and servitude to God. James 1:27 type religion.

---------------------

Now, please try grasp where I am coming from.

Many think that pre-tribbers are afraid of persecution and suffering and that is why they believe in a rapture escape. This is not completely true. Every Christian knows that persecution is part and parcel of Christianity. As scripture says ''they hated Me, they will hate you''. There will be a lot of hard times before the tribulation. God does not always appear to help us escape torment and death from wicked humans.

The tribulation is not going to be torment and death from wicked humans. God is giving the devil the green light to test and torment all. Then, at the opening of the sixth and seventh seal, God's wrath hits earth. So the tribulation period, is a period of God and the devil's wrath on the inhabitants of the earth.

When this fact sinks in. Every Christian should wonder to themselves why God needs to place someone already tested and sealed Eph 1:13-14 with the devil and in a period where they need to endure the wrath of God. As I have said many times, a Christian is sealed. When a true Christian stands before the devil, he will know he cannot turn him. This would make God our Father appear to be a parent who leaves their child all alone with someone worse than a paedophile. It would be a complete and utter contradiction of ''I will never leave nor forsake you''. You cannot be more 'left and forsaken'.

As such, it should be crystal clear in everyone's minds that to not believe in a rapture event makes a complete and utter mockery of scripture. To keep it simple I will list the three clear cases.

1. Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2. Heb 13:5 God has said, 'Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.
3. 1 Thess 5:19 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

----------------------

What is also clear when you interrogate the disagreements that exist on the rapture between Christians is the differing beliefs of what in fact it takes to be a Christian. The non-OSAS crowd believe God has a human like ability to judge a heart and mind (which contradicts Jer 17:9-11) and therefore requires us all to endure the worst period in all of human history Matt 24:21 before He can know who are His.

 

[KingJ]

Concerning his carnal mind and foul mouth, he forfeited a Matthew 18 reproof long ago when he entering a public forum. A tree is known by its fruit, and nothing but rottenness and contention follow his posts. What is singularly amazing is how he can keep a straight face when he uses his data so selectively to disparage his theological opponents - even as he ignores the same data when it undercuts his own delusion.

The doctrinal problems associated with the theological system (known as dispensationalism) that is associated with the pre-trib "rapture" theory are complex, and the controversy is dangerous to the consensus view, because when believers begin to examine their Bibles, they may find other aspects of the rapture system equally dubious. That is particularly bad news for the commercial interests associated with the Cult (e.g. the "Left Behind" series of apocalyptic fiction), for it is a billion dollar cash cow. Indeed, those doctrinal expatriates who have come to see Christianity in a more historic light have already found what kind of hardball is played by those whose bread and butter or, in this case, fragile ego, is at stake.

Those intrepid souls who actually believe the Scripture where Christ tells us "a tree is known by its fruit," might want to study the abysmal history of the origins of the Rapture Cult -- a process many embarked upon decades ago -- and their conclusion is directly related to why many call it a cult in the first place. The short version is, it started as a small study group with occultic practices, but when it grew to the abomination we presently see, its early proponents covered up the origin in order to legitimize the doctrine.

Some would say such assertions are damaging the faith of the millions already immersed in the system, but the Bible not only says it is the truth that will set you free, it ominously tells us that, in the last generation, there will be a wholesale departure from the historic truth of the Gospel. Huge numbers of Christians have been taught this applies to those supposedly "left behind," but the truth is that they are fulfilling this great "falling away" themselves with their refusal to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We have learned that most "Christians" react with antagonism to information that contradicts their programming. We would hope that they would instead re-examine their assumptions through the clear lens of a sincere Biblical analysis. However, one of the most wonderful aspects of the Good News is the fact that "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7). The truth is, the Strong Delusion the LORD promised he would bring is closely related to the lie of the Rapture Cult - and God warned them that "I will choose their delusion" (Isaiah 66:4), "...because they received not the love of the truth...." (II Thessalonians 2:10).

You two are now just grabbing straws. That’s a lot of accusations but no real engagement with the scriptures. Calling something a cult or talking about origins doesn’t address the biblical points raised.

Even if a doctrine had bad advocates, the question is still: what does scripture say? If pre-trib is wrong, it should be shown directly from scripture, not by attacking motives or history.

Any person with a sane and logical mind reading this thread will see pre-trib rapture deniers evading arguments raised and clinging to assumptions.

 

[Bill]

Good thoughts and question Bill.

Many of us will not be ready for the rapture. We can all think we are save and not be saved. We tend to always move the mark in self assessment when working out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

The context of 'one left and one taken' is that the one being taken is the one who is right with God. I have provided many scriptures and biblical examples (God helping His people escape His wrath) of this happening. I would just be repeating myself at this point.

I will just add that it would make literally zero sense to take the wicked. They need to be tested. There is a common theme throughout scripture of God testing mankind. God placed the devil with Adam and Eve. God allows Rev 2:10 and Rev 14:9-11 to take place to test people. When you grasp the fact that Christians have already been tested and sealed, it should be obvious that the wicked not be the ones taken. Remember that 'taken' in that verse leads to 'being caught up in the air with Jesus' and going to be with Him. As also stated many times with full scripture support. Thus the odds of the wicked being taken is zero.

If I am not raptured, I will just try and get things over with asap. I will hand myself in and endure Rev 2:10. Being grateful to God for giving me a second opportunity at reconciliation with Him.

I will know without a shadow of a doubt that no amount of ''faith'' will save me. Rom 10:9 will not in anyway shape or form be applicable. All that will save me / cause me to be worthy of God's protection, is rejection of the mark of the beast Rev 14:9-11 and if necessary ten days of torment and death Rev 2:10.

God will be with all who reject the mark. That in itself is dedication and servitude to God. James 1:27 type religion.

---------------------

Now, please try grasp where I am coming from.

Many think that pre-tribbers are afraid of persecution and suffering and that is why they believe in a rapture escape. This is not completely true. Every Christian knows that persecution is part and parcel of Christianity. As scripture says ''they hated Me, they will hate you''. There will be a lot of hard times before the tribulation. God does not always appear to help us escape torment and death from wicked humans.

The tribulation is not going to be torment and death from wicked humans. God is giving the devil the green light to test and torment all. Then, at the opening of the sixth and seventh seal, God's wrath hits earth. So the tribulation period, is a period of God and the devil's wrath on the inhabitants of the earth.

When this fact sinks in. Every Christian should wonder to themselves why God needs to place someone already tested and sealed Eph 1:13-14 with the devil and in a period where they need to endure the wrath of God. As I have said many times, a Christian is sealed. When a true Christian stands before the devil, he will know he cannot turn him. This would make God our Father appear to be a parent who leaves their child all alone with someone worse than a paedophile. It would be a complete and utter contradiction of ''I will never leave nor forsake you''. You cannot be more 'left and forsaken'.

As such, it should be crystal clear in everyone's minds that to not believe in a rapture event makes a complete and utter mockery of scripture. To keep it simple I will list the three clear cases.

1. Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2. Heb 13:5 God has said, 'Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.
3. 1 Thess 5:19 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

----------------------

What is also clear when you interrogate the disagreements that exist on the rapture between Christians is the differing beliefs of what in fact it takes to be a Christian. The non-OSAS crowd believe God has a human like ability to judge a heart and mind (which contradicts Jer 17:9-11) and therefore requires us all to endure the worst period in all of human history Matt 24:21 before He can know who are His.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

It has occurred to me, that those who feel that it is referred to as a pre-tribulation rapture are confusing that which is the great day of the Lord

The Great Day of the Lord in this particular instance, because there are more than one of them, it is also referred to as the breaking of The Sixth Seal.

The breaking of the Six Seal, which is coming very very soon now is a moment when God is going to reveal himself to mankind. All of mankind. Every man woman and child it does not matter the state of your mind whether you are insane or normal nothing matters God is going to touch everyone's heart in that moment.

I will tell you these things the things that I have been shown so that you will not have to fear so much when it takes place. There will be an explosion on the surface of the Sun and everything will be instantaneously black you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. And 3 minutes after that explosion there will be no electricity for approximately 3 days.

These three days of darkness will cause many to have great fear but during that period of time God is going to reveal himself to every man woman and child. The moment that it takes place will only last for a short period of time within the three days.

You will see yourself the way God sees you. You will see how your sin affects God's heart. And for those who are Godless they will be able to realize who God really is.

There will be many conversions during that time. Whole countries will come to worship God.

What comes afterwards for roughly 6 months the churches will be absolutely packed people will be seeking forgiveness. Churches who have good teaching or the Holy Spirit dwells in that church, will retain all of those who have come seeking God

At the end of the 6 months there will be a miracle that will take place it will be a Everlasting sign on the planet of what Jesus has done for us. It will be after that though believe it or not after all everything that has taken place that people will fall away. If the churches do not reach out with the fullness of God's love to the new children to those who have been saved then no saved will be lost.

It will be as Peter who first stepped out of the boat eagerly going to see Jesus on the water with full faith, and then the winds and the Seas around him began to enter his mind and he realized he was on water and he took his gaze away from God and began to sink.

It will be after all of the grace that mankind has experienced. And there's one other thing that your faith but will not be the way it is now, your faith will be like that of an Angel. Meaning you my friend. Because you'll have no doubt in your mind who God is.

 

[backNforth]

As such, it should be crystal clear in everyone's minds that to not believe in a rapture event makes a complete and utter mockery of scripture. To keep it simple I will list the three clear cases.

1. Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2. Heb 13:5 God has said, 'Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.
3. 1 Thess 5:19 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok, so now we're being taken from his kitchen-sink'd "Top Ten" list, to his watered down "Top Three" list.

1. This is yet another of his non sequitur's. His cited passage has nothing to do with the OP or any issue of a so-called rapture.
2. This is yet another of his non sequitur's. His cited passage concerns God's end of our relationship - not our end. The reality is that many will forsake God - which is one outcome of the time of testing aka tribulation (when many will come to God, as well).
3. Because the poster is blinded by pride and an immature relationship, if any, with the Holy Spirit, he cannot understand that the wrath of God is reserved for the children of disobedience:

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now ye are light in the Lord: walk as children of light. (Eph. 5)

As such, it should be crystal clear in everyone's minds that to not believe in a rapture event makes a complete and utter mockery of scripture.

Truth is, it is the poster himself who has "made a complete and utter mocklery of scripture." Every other poster who falls for his clickbait/suckerbait, posing on this site and several others, is another step removed from his own Rock. For the rest of us, we would do well now to heed that command to NOT be "partakers with them." Rather than succumbing to the temptation, we need to take our thoughts captive and shake the dust from our feet. Stop feeding the beast and the beast will die.

 

[KingJ]

Ok, so now we're being taken from his kitchen-sink'd "Top Ten" list, to his watered down "Top Three" list.

Why don't you try directly address the scriptures I have given you? Why all this cringey ad hominem?

The list of ten items that you ran from? Not taking a proper stab at any. This list of three items are pertinent to the discussion with Bill.

1. This is yet another of his non sequitur's. His cited passage has nothing to do with the OP or any issue of a so-called rapture.

If you have the mark of the beast can you be saved by faith per Rom 10:9?

Yes or No answer please. I mean this respectfully, it is like a 'duh / 1 + 1 = 2' point being made.

2. This is yet another of his non sequitur's. His cited passage concerns God's end of our relationship - not our end. The reality is that many will forsake God - which is one outcome of the time of testing aka tribulation (when many will come to God, as well).

If God cannot seal us, then He cannot properly judge us. As such, if we as true Christians can leave and forsake God, then how can eternity in heaven be true?

You reduce God to the intelligence level of a human who cannot judge heart and mind. You need to meditate on Jer 17:9-11.

3. Because the poster is blinded by pride and an immature relationship, if any, with the Holy Spirit, he cannot understand that the wrath of God is reserved for the children of disobedience:

I find this ironic. You correctly say that the wrath of God is reserved for children of disobedience and then claim that devout Christians will endure the tribulation, a period scripture clearly calls the wrath of God.

That some wicked repent when plagues hit, or refuse the mark of the beast and become saints, does not change the fact that the tribulation is a period of the wrath of God. One where He empowers the devil. He drops plagues. Scripture is crystal clear that this period is His wrath and that we (sealed Christians) are not appointed to His wrath.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now ye are light in the Lord: walk as children of light. (Eph. 5)

You like making these false assumptions that you cannot prove. What is vain about my words? Being able to read and grasp scripture is vain? Exposing that your pet theory of no pre-trib rapture event is arrived at by you needing to insert your own assumptions into scripture and make it say something it does not, that is vain?

Truth is, it is the poster himself who has "made a complete and utter mocklery of scripture."

You state this but cannot and have not proven it. I, on the other hand have clearly shown you where you are inserting your own assumptions into scripture to make your belief work.

Every other poster who falls for his clickbait/suckerbait, posing on this site and several others, is another step removed from his own Rock. For the rest of us, we would do well now to heed that command to NOT be "partakers with them." Rather than succumbing to the temptation, we need to take our thoughts captive and shake the dust from our feet. Stop feeding the beast and the beast will die.

Imagine thinking that someone teaching that God will not abandon His children, chosen because they passed His test of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11 and were gifted saving faith Rom 10:9 to be sealed in Christ Eph 1:13-14, is posting ''clickbait''.

-------------

At this point in the thread I feel like I need to help you guys out a bit by playing devil's advocate.

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

It has occurred to me, that those who feel that it is referred to as a pre-tribulation rapture are confusing that which is the great day of the Lord

No Bill, scripture clearly speaks to two separate events. Please go read the posts I made recently to @backNforth and @farmerjoe

How in the world can you think that:

1.Scripture mentioning ''one will be taken and another left'' and ''every knee will bow'' is the same event?

2. Scripture mentioning 'nobody except God the Father knows the day and hour' is an event at the end of exactly seven years of tribulation which is at the end of exactly 6k years of mankind.

I really don't understand how you all cannot grasp that this is a simple 'duh / 1 + 1 = 2' fact.

The Great Day of the Lord in this particular instance, because there are more than one of them, it is also referred to as the breaking of The Sixth Seal.

The breaking of the Six Seal, which is coming very very soon now is a moment when God is going to reveal himself to mankind. All of mankind. Every man woman and child it does not matter the state of your mind whether you are insane or normal nothing matters God is going to touch everyone's heart in that moment.

I will tell you these things the things that I have been shown so that you will not have to fear so much when it takes place. There will be an explosion on the surface of the Sun and everything will be instantaneously black you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. And 3 minutes after that explosion there will be no electricity for approximately 3 days.

These three days of darkness will cause many to have great fear but during that period of time God is going to reveal himself to every man woman and child. The moment that it takes place will only last for a short period of time within the three days.

You will see yourself the way God sees you. You will see how your sin affects God's heart. And for those who are Godless they will be able to realize who God really is.

There will be many conversions during that time. Whole countries will come to worship God.

What comes afterwards for roughly 6 months the churches will be absolutely packed people will be seeking forgiveness. Churches who have good teaching or the Holy Spirit dwells in that church, will retain all of those who have come seeking God

At the end of the 6 months there will be a miracle that will take place it will be a Everlasting sign on the planet of what Jesus has done for us. It will be after that though believe it or not after all everything that has taken place that people will fall away. If the churches do not reach out with the fullness of God's love to the new children to those who have been saved then no saved will be lost.

It will be as Peter who first stepped out of the boat eagerly going to see Jesus on the water with full faith, and then the winds and the Seas around him began to enter his mind and he realized he was on water and he took his gaze away from God and began to sink.

It will be after all of the grace that mankind has experienced. And there's one other thing that your faith but will not be the way it is now, your faith will be like that of an Angel. Meaning you my friend. Because you'll have no doubt in your mind who God is.

Some of this I agree with, but you are not directly addressing any arguments I have raised. You are just stating your opinion.

 

[B-A-C]

1. The Rapture Date Is Completely Unknown

From the OP.

The Rapture date is unknown, yes it is, no argument here. This makes it harder for pre-trib than post-trib.
Why, because if the rapture is pre-trib and the tribulation starts on wednesday, then I have to do the rapture
one day ahead of an unknown date. How can I rapture everyone on Tuesday, if I don't know the tribulation
starts on wednesday? But I know the trbulation lasts 7 years, and the rapture is post trib, problem solved.

2. God Does Not Leave Nor Forsake Us

Not sure what this has to do with pre/post trib? But we can talk about it.

Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

This verse is about God taking care of our material needs, and not loving money. Nothing about the tribulation anywhere in this passage.
But it says here, "for He Himself has said.." Who said this? When did they say it? Hint: It wasn't Jesus in the NT anywhere.

Deut 31:6 "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you."
Deut 31:7 Then Moses called to Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall go with this people into the land which the LORD has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall give it to them as an inheritance.
Deut 31:8 "The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

The interesting thing here is.. God didn't leave them or forsake them while going through the wilderness, He fed them for 40 years.
But even though He was with them, they still had to go through the wilderness. God is with us when we go through trials and tribulations,
yes it's true, I don't have a problem with that, but we still have to go through the flood, the fiery furnace, the red-sea, and the tribulation.

3. God Does Not Lie

Again, I'm not what this has to do with pre/post trib. But 5 verses specifically say the rapture will happen after the tribulation.
After the man of lawlessness is revealed and takes his seat in the temple, and after the tribulation is over. Not a single verse
says "before".

If the present, sealed, justified Church enters the tribulation. The climactic outpouring of divine wrath and satanic dominance. Then those three truths are strained to the breaking point.

Well, you said earlier God doesn't leave or forsake us... He protects his people in the tribulation, same as he protected the
Jews in the wilderness, and Noah in the flood, and Daniel in the Lion's den, and Meshach and Shadrach in the fiery furnace.

Rev 9:2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

God protects His people from His own plagues.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

After the trib, not before.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

After the trib, not before.

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

After the beast is revealed and takes his seat in the temple, not before.

1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The "last" trumpet, not the first, after, not before.

Revelation 8:6 through Revelation 11:15 covers all seven trumpets.

The sequence breaks down as:

Revelation 8:6-7 — first trumpetRevelation 8:8-9 — second trumpetRevelation 8:10-11 — third trumpetRevelation 8:12 — fourth trumpetRevelation 8:13 — the "woe" warning before the final threeRevelation 9:1-12 — fifth trumpet (first woe)Revelation 9:13-21 — sixth trumpet (second woe)Revelation 11:15-19 — seventh trumpet (third woe)

Worth noting that the fifth and sixth trumpets are significantly more detailed than the first four, and the seventh trumpet in chapter 11 is more of a proclamation of victory than a plague in the traditional sense — "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."

The trumpet would be the last, the seventh, not before.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection happens after the tribulation, after Satan is imprisoned, not before. No one is resurrected before this time.

2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Anyone who tells you it happens before this, is trying to deceive you.

After, after, after, after, after. There is no verse that says "before the tribulation", anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Gerbolski]

Oh well God is good, and he is coming soon, it is important to know what the bible says about things, even in it's symbolism via the feast days, and what it says about many various trumpets, for it is in the bible, and various trumpets had different functions, different warnings and different purposes, it is in the old testament for a reason, and not to be ignored, but also it is good to look into marriages in the time of Jesus, such as the marriage of Cana in some fashion.

Of course I am a pre-triber, and whatever argument people want to give, which some are silly to me, whatever.

The 10 virgins is a good example of the rapture, but there is another scripture that many pre-tribers use, that has nothing to do with the rapture.

Luk 17:34-37
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

These verses go along with this:

Rev 19:17-18
(17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
(18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The ones taken in Luke 17, speaks of judgment, and not something good, the ones left, are the ones that are going to be left alive, so to go in the millennial reign, but the ones taken, well they shall receive judgment, and their bodies shall be eaten by the fowls of the air.

This is a second coming thing and not a rapture thing.

 

[Gerbolski]

7th trumpet

Rev 11:15-19
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(16) And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
(17) Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 11:14
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The third woe happens during the time of the seventh trumpet.

At that time, Satan is cast down to the earth, and it is from the stand point of this "third woe" getting ready to happen, that God is saying that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, for Jesus is getting ready to take back the earth.

Now here is the "third woe" actually mentioned, it is in the next chapter, right after chapter 11.

Rev 12:12-14
(12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
(14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So it actually mentions this event as being a "woe", it is mentioned in the book of Revelation, which mentions the three woes, no coincidence here.

And from there Satan persecutes the woman for 3 1/2 years (a time(1), times(2), half a time(1/2)), but this specific remnant shall be protected of God.

And this seventh trumpet is way before the second coming takes place, in fact 3 1/2 years before.

So the claim by some is this is the last trumpet, but is it ?

And my question is this, to some is the last trump in Corinthians the same as the last of these 7 trumpets, or is the words the last trump, the last trumpet that ever gets blown ?

Think very carefully.

 

[joestue]

And my question is this, to some is the last trump in Corinthians the same as the last of these 7 trumpets, or is the words the last trump, the last trumpet that ever gets blown ?

someone i know of came to the conclusion the 7 trumpets, woes, judgements, bowls, etc.

happen at the same time, so the first of each, followed by the second of each, etc.


as for the middle east right now.. the eurphrates river is drying up. the lack of water/drought will send the whole middle east into a firestorm -no need for supernatural unchained angels of darkness to help cause that flash pot to catch fire.

 

[KingJ]

From the OP.

The Rapture date is unknown, yes it is, no argument here.

Yes, Matt 25:36 is quite clear on that.

This makes it harder for pre-trib than post-trib.

No, it makes it impossible for post trib as dates in the tribulation are calculable. Seven years = 1260 days.

Why, because if the rapture is pre-trib and the tribulation starts on wednesday, then I have to do the rapture
one day ahead of an unknown date.

No. You would not do the rapture a day and hour before a knowable date. It is an unknowable day and hour. You have simply correctly made an argument for no rapture event the day or hour before the tribulation start date.

How can I rapture everyone on Tuesday, if I don't know the tribulation
starts on wednesday? But I know the trbulation lasts 7 years, and the rapture is post trib, problem solved.

BAC you can't be serious?

I responded to this line from you earlier in this thread. Did you not read that post?

The only time that is available for an unknown (day and hour) rapture event is pre-trib or maybe mid-trib. Certainly not what you believe in, a post-trib.

Not sure what this has to do with pre/post trib? But we can talk about it.

Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

This verse is about God taking care of our material needs, and not loving money. Nothing about the tribulation anywhere in this passage.
But it says here, "for He Himself has said.." Who said this? When did they say it? Hint: It wasn't Jesus in the NT anywhere.

Deut 31:6 "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you."
Deut 31:7 Then Moses called to Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall go with this people into the land which the LORD has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall give it to them as an inheritance.
Deut 31:8 "The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

The interesting thing here is.. God didn't leave them or forsake them while going through the wilderness, He fed them for 40 years.
But even though He was with them, they still had to go through the wilderness. God is with us when we go through trials and tribulations,
yes it's true, I don't have a problem with that, but we still have to go through the flood, the fiery furnace, the red-sea, and the tribulation.

You’re proving my point, not refuting it. All your examples (Noah, Daniel, furnace, wilderness) are:

• protection from external trials, not
• being left under God’s global wrath + satanic rule

The tribulation is not just “going through hardship.” It’s:

• God’s wrath (Rev 6–16)
• Satan given authority over the saints (Rev 13:7)

That’s not Goshen. That’s a completely different category.

Again, I'm not what this has to do with pre/post trib. But 5 verses specifically say the rapture will happen after the tribulation.
After the man of lawlessness is revealed and takes his seat in the temple, and after the tribulation is over. Not a single verse
says "before".

Well, you said earlier God doesn't leave or forsake us... He protects his people in the tribulation, same as he protected the
Jews in the wilderness, and Noah in the flood, and Daniel in the Lion's den, and Meshach and Shadrach in the fiery furnace.

Rev 9:2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

God protects His people from His own plagues.

You keep saying “after” verses like that ends the discussion. It doesn’t.

You’re assuming one gathering only, then forcing every passage into it.

You still haven’t addressed:

• unknown timing vs a countable tribulation timeline
• believers not appointed to wrath
• “one taken, one left” vs everyone seeing Him

You’re repeating your verses, not dealing with the conflicts they create.

 

[KingJ]

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

After the trib, not before.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

After the trib, not before.

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

After the beast is revealed and takes his seat in the temple, not before.

1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The "last" trumpet, not the first, after, not before.

Revelation 8:6 through Revelation 11:15 covers all seven trumpets.

The sequence breaks down as:

Revelation 8:6-7 — first trumpetRevelation 8:8-9 — second trumpetRevelation 8:10-11 — third trumpetRevelation 8:12 — fourth trumpetRevelation 8:13 — the "woe" warning before the final threeRevelation 9:1-12 — fifth trumpet (first woe)Revelation 9:13-21 — sixth trumpet (second woe)Revelation 11:15-19 — seventh trumpet (third woe)

Worth noting that the fifth and sixth trumpets are significantly more detailed than the first four, and the seventh trumpet in chapter 11 is more of a proclamation of victory than a plague in the traditional sense — "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."

The trumpet would be the last, the seventh, not before.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection happens after the tribulation, after Satan is imprisoned, not before. No one is resurrected before this time.

2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Anyone who tells you it happens before this, is trying to deceive you.

After, after, after, after, after. There is no verse that says "before the tribulation", anywhere in the Bible.

You’re stacking “after” passages, but they all describe the same visible return to earth, not every gathering of believers.

The issue isn’t whether there’s a gathering after the tribulation (there clearly is Matthew 24:29–31). The issue is whether that’s the only one.

You’re assuming that, not proving it.

You also keep tying everything to that timeline, which makes the event knowable, yet Matthew 24:36 says no one knows the day or hour. That fact doesn’t go away by repeating “after”.

“After” is not the debate. “Only after” is, and that’s where your argument falls short.

 

[KingJ]

The title of the thread should be 'Pre-trib rapture only, anything else incriminates man. Paul mentions a removal at the Parousia and last trump, Jesus said after tribulation of THOSE days. We know this hasn't happened.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Too many people think the Lord's return is at our immediate doorstep. But from what I see, thing go really bad BEFORE he returns. He likely returns to prevent man and his demonic enemies from completely destroying the planet he created.

You’re describing the condition of the world before Christ’s visible return, and I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that. Things do get very bad.

But that still doesn’t address the core issue, namely, whether there is a gathering before that final “day of the Lord” scene you’re describing.

Quoting the end doesn’t prove there isn’t something before it. You are simply making an assumption.

 

[KingJ]

Oh well God is good, and he is coming soon, it is important to know what the bible says about things, even in it's symbolism via the feast days, and what it says about many various trumpets, for it is in the bible, and various trumpets had different functions, different warnings and different purposes, it is in the old testament for a reason, and not to be ignored, but also it is good to look into marriages in the time of Jesus, such as the marriage of Cana in some fashion.

Of course I am a pre-triber, and whatever argument people want to give, which some are silly to me, whatever.

The 10 virgins is a good example of the rapture, but there is another scripture that many pre-tribers use, that has nothing to do with the rapture.

Luk 17:34-37
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

These verses go along with this:

Rev 19:17-18
(17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
(18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The ones taken in Luke 17, speaks of judgment, and not something good, the ones left, are the ones that are going to be left alive, so to go in the millennial reign, but the ones taken, well they shall receive judgment, and their bodies shall be eaten by the fowls of the air.

This is a second coming thing and not a rapture thing.

I agree that Luke 17:34–37 is clearly set in a judgment context, especially when compared with Revelation 19:17–18.

I would disagree that it has nothing to do with the rapture. The language of “one taken and one left” describes a sudden selective removal, and in parallel teaching Jesus links that kind of sudden separation with His coming and gathering in Matthew 24:40–41.

I have an issue with using the parable of the ten virgins as a good example of the rapture. These virgins are not children of God. A Child will be raptured and a child will always be one with oil in their lamps. At the time of Jesus there was no such thing as a 'Christian / child of God'.

 

[Gerbolski]

I agree that Luke 17:34–37 is clearly set in a judgment context, especially when compared with Revelation 19:17–18.

I would disagree that it has nothing to do with the rapture. The language of “one taken and one left” describes a sudden selective removal, and in parallel teaching Jesus links that kind of sudden separation with His coming and gathering in Matthew 24:40–41.

I have an issue with using the parable of the ten virgins as a good example of the rapture. These virgins are not children of God. A Child will be raptured and a child will always be one with oil in their lamps. At the time of Jesus there was no such thing as a 'Christian / child of God'.

On the issue of the virgins, they were all called virgins, which means they were pure before God, but 5 eventually turned away from God, I know that some osas type people would probably have a problem with that, but that is what the word virgin stands for, purity, or keeping oneself pure, but of course the 5 foolish ones did not remain that way.

 

[Gerbolski]

Mat 25:3-8
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
(5) While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
(6) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
(7) Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The reason the 5 five were declared foolish, is that they did not continue in Christ, thus did not fill up their lamp with oil, thus their lamps eventually going out, which tells me that they may have had some oil at one time, but now it ran out.

 

[Gerbolski]

someone i know of came to the conclusion the 7 trumpets, woes, judgements, bowls, etc.

happen at the same time, so the first of each, followed by the second of each, etc.

They are in chronological order, 7 seals, followed by the 7 trumpets, which leads us to the 3rd woe, which happens at the mid point of the tribulation, then the last half the 7 vials.

And none of those events are mentioned as being the same as each other.