Power in Hell?

[Sue D.]

It seems to be 'wrong' doctrine when you don't agree with it.

 

[Samson2020]

Rom 11:32 "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief that he might have mercy upon ALL,"

Who ever born of a woman does not fit this category with the exception of Jesus?

 

[Butch5]

I agree, but some of the billions of souls that take part in that second resurrection were those that were born during the kingdom reign and have seen the first fruits of the redemption of man and Jesus himself, but they are still not found in the lambs book of life as they are consumed by fire at the final battle. Go figure, nobody saved over 1000 yrs even though they see salvation staring them in the face?

Take a look at everything cast into the lake of fire and ask yourself what is cast in that does not exist today? Revelation is not physical it is spiritual and should be read as such.

And be reminded that every jot and tittle must be fulfilled.


Totally agree and he will show it to whom he pleases, but not all of it. As some of it has not been written yet, just as the new testament was not written til 2000 yrs ago.
But there are hints of whats coming if he shows you where to look.

There is a great parable that speaks to this found in Matthew 20 about the laborers who ALL got a penny no matter what time of day they came to work. And it can be applied to all now as well.

Where exactly do you see that Revelation isn't physical? Are saying that believers won't be physically resurrected?

 

[Samson2020]

Lazarus was raised by Jesus but he later died. All will be raised

The New Covenant had not been ratified by the shedding of blood at that time and truly we do not know that lazarus was not a part of the elect group as were not told about who those people are with just a few exceptions like Peter, Paul, John, the original disciples and apostles. So who knows who will be found written in the Lambs book?

 

[Butch5]

It seems to be 'wrong' doctrine when you don't agree with it.

Think about that statement. Don't you consider any doctrine you don't agree with to be wrong?

But, the "Immortal Soul" doctrine is demonstrably wrong. Paul said that only the Father has immortality. That means everyone and everything else dies.

 

[Sue D.]

I agree, but some of the billions of souls that take part in that second resurrection were those that were born during the kingdom reign and have seen the first fruits of the redemption of man and Jesus himself, but they are still not found in the lambs book of life as they are consumed by fire at the final battle. Go figure, nobody saved over 1000 yrs even though they see salvation staring them in the face?

Take a look at everything cast into the lake of fire and ask yourself what is cast in that does not exist today? Revelation is not physical it is spiritual and should be read as such.

And be reminded that every jot and tittle must be fulfilled.


Totally agree and he will show it to whom he pleases, but not all of it. As some of it has not been written yet, just as the new testament was not written til 2000 yrs ago.
But there are hints of whats coming if he shows you where to look.

There is a great parable that speaks to this found in Matthew 20 about the laborers who ALL got a penny no matter what time of day they came to work. And it can be applied to all now as well.

You Do have some interesting beliefs that don't appear to be based on Scripture.

So -- when a person wants to 'spiritualize' Scripture they can have it say anything they want it to say.

Since every jot and title are to stay put -- not added to or taken out -- and 'must be fulfilled' -- then Relevation is not 'spiritual' but physical.

And what do you mean that 'some of it has not been written yet' -- we have the complete canon.

WE 'look' in His Word and see what's happening in this world.

 

[Butch5]

The New Covenant had not been ratified by the shedding of blood at that time and truly we do not know that lazarus was not a part of the elect group as were not told about who those people are with just a few exceptions like Peter, Paul, John, the original disciples and apostles. So who knows who will be found written in the Lambs book?

What's that got to do with it? Jesus raised Lazarus and lazarus later died.

We do know who the elect are. Israel is God's elect

 

[Samson2020]

Are saying that believers won't be physically resurrected?

Correct. They have put on incorruption and they will see the Lord for they shall be like him and he is now a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. So a spiritual resurrection into the spiritual kingdom is what will happen. They can put on a body like an angel if they wish but not needed.

 

[Samson2020]

So -- when a person wants to 'spiritualize' Scripture they can have it say anything they want it to say.

Ask Jesus he said plainly that the "Words that I speak are SPIRIT AND LIFE."

 

[Butch5]

Correct. They have put on incorruption and they will see the Lord for they shall be like him and he is now a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. So a spiritual resurrection into the spiritual kingdom is what will happen. They can put on a body like an angel if they wish but not needed.

Are you aware that that is basically Gnosticism?

Jesus is a flesh and bone human being. After His resurrection He appeared to the apostles. In his epistle, the apostle john said,

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 Jn. 4:3 KJV)

When John said, Jesus is come in the flesh, he used the Greek perfect tense. This means that Jesus came in the flesh and remains in the flesh. So, according to the apostle John Jesus is flesh.

One thing to remember is that Paul often writes in concepts. In that same passage Paul says the first Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Was Jesus the last man? Was He the last Adam? Were there no men born after Jesus? I think it's obvious that there have been men born after Jesus. Paul is talking in concepts here. He's not saying that Jesus is literally a spirit. It's the contrast of two concepts.

 

[Butch5]

This thread is a beautiful example of the dangers of proof texting.

 

[Samson2020]

Paul says the first Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Was Jesus the last man? Was He the last Adam? Were there no men born after Jesus? I think it's obvious that there have been men born after Jesus. Paul is talking in concepts here. He's not saying that Jesus is literally a spirit. It's the contrast of two concepts.

No my friend Paul is talking about two different perfect men from their beginning. Adam fell and remained a living soul that died in the flesh. Jesus became a life giving Spirit
as the last perfect man to ever be born outside the curses of Eden (no carnal mind). Sure men are born but the Father of their flesh is not God; therefore they do have a carnal mind as is Gods intention. They being begotten of men are born under condemnation. Remember he hath concluded them all in unbelief so that he might have mercy upon all.
ALL men in born into unbelief that he may have mercy on ALL men.

You Do have some interesting beliefs that don't appear to be based on Scripture.

Titus 1:2-3 " In hope of ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; but hath in due time manifested his word(plan)
through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our savior."

Tell me Sue what did you do to deserve eternal life? Or can you fathom it is a gift from your Father that he freely gives to all in his own time?

I believe scripture speaks for itself. And my beliefs are strictly based upon them.

 

[Samson2020]

When John said, Jesus is come in the flesh, he used the Greek perfect tense. This means that Jesus came in the flesh and remains in the flesh. So, according to the apostle John Jesus is flesh.

Hopefully someday you will be able to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD as Johns statement would be about the fact that Jesus was just a man during his ministry and any spirit that says otherwise was a spirit of anti Christ. Trinitarian ideology as an example.
But since the Holy Ghost could not be given until AFTER JESUS WAS GLORIFIED, he was no longer just a man at that time.

 

[Butch5]

No my friend Paul is talking about two different perfect men from their beginning. Adam fell and remained a living soul that died in the flesh. Jesus became a life giving Spirit
as the last perfect man to ever be born outside the curses of Eden (no carnal mind). Sure men are born but the Father of their flesh is not God; therefore they do have a carnal mind as is Gods intention. They being begotten of men are born under condemnation. Remember he hath concluded them all in unbelief so that he might have mercy upon all.
ALL men in born into unbelief that he may have mercy on ALL men.




Titus 1:2-3 " In hope of ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; but hath in due time manifested his word(plan)
through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our savior."

Tell me Sue what did you do to deserve eternal life? Or can you fathom it is a gift from your Father that he freely gives to all in his own time?

I believe scripture speaks for itself. And my beliefs are strictly based upon them.

Now you changing what it says. It says the last Adam. Was Jesus the last man born or not? He's contrasting prototypes. Adam is the prototype of the natural man and Jesus is the prototype of the resurrected man. As I said, John tells us that Jesus was still in the flesh when he wrote his first epistle. Your claim that Jesus is a spirit runs counter to what John said.

Remember what Peter said.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:15-16 KJV)

Here's Peter, a man who had his understanding of the Scriptures personally opened by Jesus. He said some things that Paul writes are hard to understand. If a man, who Jesus Himself gave the Scriptures to had trouble understanding some of the things Paul wrote, how much more careful should we be?

My friend, in all seriousness, what you are claiming is Gnostic in it's origin. The Gnostics held that, the Chris,t was just a spirit and not a man. I would caution you to rethink some of these things you're saying.

 

[Butch5]

Hopefully someday you will be able to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD as Johns statement would be about the fact that Jesus was just a man during his ministry and any spirit that says otherwise was a spirit of anti Christ. Trinitarian ideology as an example.
But since the Holy Ghost could not be given until AFTER JESUS WAS GLORIFIED, he was no longer just a man at that time.

You missed my point. John used language that indicated that Jesus was still flesh when John wrote his epistle. That was some 60 years after Jesus had been resurrected. According to John, Jesus was still, 60 years later, in the flesh.

 

[Samson2020]

You missed my point. John used language that indicated that Jesus was still flesh when John wrote his epistle. That was some 60 years after Jesus had been resurrected. According to John, Jesus was still, 60 years later, in the flesh.

Sounds good but flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. So YOUR interpretation fails as Jesus had already inherited the Kingdom. Jesus had been glorified as the Holy Ghost had been given and Jesus had taken his place at the right hand of God. And began the Baptizing in the Holy Spirit thus a life giving spirit.

"The last Adam BECAME a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT." What part of that verse says he is still flesh and blood?

 

[Butch5]

Sounds good but flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. So YOUR interpretation fails as Jesus had already inherited the Kingdom. Jesus had been glorified as the Holy Ghost had been given and Jesus had taken his place at the right hand of God. And began the Baptizing in the Holy Spirit thus a life giving spirit.

"The last Adam BECAME a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT." What part of that verse says he is still flesh and blood?

It's not my interpretation. It's the Greek language. I didn't invent Koine Greek and I didn't write it's rules. The language that John used requires that Jesus was still in the flesh when he wrote his epistle. That's just the language.

Again, Paul speaks in concepts. He's comparing the first and last Adam. Was Jesus the last man to ever be born. No. Then Paul must have some other concept in mind. It seems that you're importing the English definition of spirit into the text. The Greek text literally says that the second Adam became a life giving wind or breath. What does it mean that Jesus is a life giving breath? Also, not the context of the passage. What is the context about?

Again, concepts. When Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, what is the context? What is he talking about.

I mentioned earlier the dangers of proof texting. Pulling these passages without context is dangerous to a proper understanding.

 

[Sue D.]

You missed my point. John used language that indicated that Jesus was still flesh when John wrote his epistle. That was some 60 years after Jesus had been resurrected. According to John, Jesus was still, 60 years later, in the flesh.

Actually -- Jesus ascended back up to heaven 40 days after His bodily resurrection as per Acts 1:1 -4.

 

[Butch5]

Actually -- Jesus ascended back up to heaven 40 days after His bodily resurrection as per Acts 1:1 -4.

That's correct. He's in the flesh

 

[Sue D.]

He was in His glorified body. My point is that it was only 40 days rather than 60 yrs.