Power in Hell?

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Quick question.

Based on your understanding of the Bible will there be anyone ruling in hell or will it be a place of torment for all who
go there?

I ask because I have listened to many near death experiences or visions of hell online and in many accounts the individuals
share about being tortured by demons in hell, as if the demons are in hell ruling and getting pleasure out of torturing humans.

However I thought that the demons in hell are sent there for suffering not to be exercising power and getting pleasure from
whatever acts they may be able to do.

Or perhaps it is like prison here on earth. You have some prisoners who abuse other prisoners but all the prisoners are suffering.

What are your thoughts? Thanks.

 

[KingJ]

Quick question.

Based on your understanding of the Bible will there be anyone ruling in hell or will it be a place of torment for all who
go there?

I ask because I have listened to many near death experiences or visions of hell online and in many accounts the individuals
share about being tortured by demons in hell, as if the demons are in hell ruling and getting pleasure out of torturing humans.

However I thought that the demons in hell are sent there for suffering not to be exercising power and getting pleasure from
whatever acts they may be able to do.

Or perhaps it is like prison here on earth. You have some prisoners who abuse other prisoners but all the prisoners are suffering.

What are your thoughts? Thanks.

God rules over everything. Fact.

We need to filter thoughts, books and films through scripture or state ''in my opinion''.

I don't see statements like ''demons torturing people in hell'' survive a scriptural filter. God is just Psalm 25:18 and punishment is according to deeds Rom 2:6.

There is probably some truth to chaos in Hades as the white throne judgement has not yet taken place. After this sentences are passed and everyone not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the eternal lake of fire.

My scriptural thoughts of Hades and eternal Hell are as follows:

I believe some demons are currently imprisoned in Hades. They are the worst of the worst. So, these guys are not hurting anyone. If they were not imprisoned they would likely make life in Hades unbearable. There are levels of evil among angels just as there are among humans. Only God is perfectly good Mark 10:18. Humans will integrate with an already functioning society of angels. Both in Hades and Heaven.

Hades and eternal hell will be places of constant torment. As, I believe there is no blur on your reality. Humans and angels there will fully grasp that for eternity they are separated from God, angels and saints. They will not take part in niceties of heaven. They will be eternally surrounded by those who could not sincerely repent of their sins Psalm 51:17. Not all around them will be unbearable. But, not a single person or fallen angel in hell can be 100% trusted. Your neighbor will be a thief. Your shopkeeper an adulterer. Your president a murderer. There is a world of difference between being in the company of truly repentant sinners over unrepentant. This reality together with the isolation from God, creates a constant suffering of sort.

In scripture we find that fire is compared to not having the peace of God. Darkness is compared to being in the presence of evil John 3:19. Weeping and gnashing of teeth takes place because of regret and separation from God Luke 13:28.

I believe those in hell will be able to see heaven and those in heaven, hell. There is scripture that suggests this.

Torture, is highly unlikely. I say this with certainty from God's perspective. God is incapable of a punishment of torture. Torture is evil and God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. But I put a disclaimer on torture as I do not know how God would control the very wicked in hell from afar off whilst allowing for true free will to prevail. We know that He self restricts Himself to allow for true free will. This is why I believe He will use many of us to be on a ''hell duty'' of sort. This is a personal belief. It has some logic to it as scripture makes it clear that the wicked cannot be with God, but it says nothing to prohibit us from going wherever we want to. In fact we reign over everything with Jesus. An eternal hell will be a part of this surely.

I just cannot swallow the pill that those who '''barely''' don't make it into heaven 1 Pet 4:18 being utterly forgotten. Or those who didn't make it by a mile, also being forgotten. It does not seem very Christian. It is God's nature to love His enemy. This is why He keeps them alive and honors their free will decision to live away from Him. If it is not imposing on them, I believe we will have opportunity to visit and perhaps take them some niceties. We just need to consider something like the Geneva convention I believe to get a better understanding of what hell will be like.

The best way to better grasp what to expect in hell is to first properly grasp the Creator of hell.

He is love 1 John 4:8
He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17
He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5
He is impartial Acts 10:34
He is fair and just Psalm 25:8

and then read the full context of all the scripture that speaks on hell.

The worst thing you can do is read a book written by someone who wants to get rich off of its sales or hear a sermon by a pastor who wants to increase membership.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

One question, you stated that "torture is evil".

But if God is the judge isn't it right and just for a righteous God to punish as he desires granted it is appropriate for the crime?

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

One question, you stated that "torture is evil".

But if God is the judge isn't it right and just for a righteous God to punish as he desires granted it is appropriate for the crime?

Many see eye for an eye as just. It is. But fortunately for the wicked, God is not only just. He is also good Psalm 136:1 and defines Himself as the epitome of the word ''love'' in 1 John 4:8.

As such we need to consider punishment bearing all of the scriptures that define God in mind.

So, lets fire this question at us. We, with our renewed minds (to the mind of Christ) are going to judge angels one-day. Paul makes this crystal clear in 1 Cor 6:1-9. He says we can judge matters better then the unsaved .

So, let me ask you this. What 'unsaved' person on this planet will see torturing a murderer as a fitting punishment? I would say maybe 15% are that sick. The Russian leaders for example after WW 2 would not sign the Geneva convention.

Now, what Christian on this planet would ordain torture as a fitting punishment for a murderer who also tortured his victims? Think of how some don't wet the cloth before attaching the head unit of an electric chair. What Christian will do this to their worst enemy? I would argue that none should.

And now.....God. God who defines Himself as light with NO darkness in Him AT ALL 1 John 1:5.

Teaching God will torture is on par with teaching the sun has ice. Torture is the workings of a sick mind. Torture is not something God can do. It can be a product of free will. But not from God's direct involvement. Two evils do not make a right.

 

[Curtis]

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Thanks for the verses Curtis.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Many see eye for an eye as just. It is. But fortunately for the wicked, God is not only just. He is also good Psalm 136:1 and defines Himself as the epitome of the word ''love'' in 1 John 4:8.

As such we need to consider punishment bearing all of the scriptures that define God in mind.

So, lets fire this question at us. We, with our renewed minds (to the mind of Christ) are going to judge angels one-day. Paul makes this crystal clear in 1 Cor 6:1-9. He says we can judge matters better then the unsaved .

So, let me ask you this. What 'unsaved' person on this planet will see torturing a murderer as a fitting punishment? I would say maybe 15% are that sick. The Russian leaders for example after WW 2 would not sign the Geneva convention.

Now, what Christian on this planet would ordain torture as a fitting punishment for a murderer who also tortured his victims? Think of how some don't wet the cloth before attaching the head unit of an electric chair. What Christian will do this to their worst enemy? I would argue that none should.

And now.....God. God who defines Himself as light with NO darkness in Him AT ALL 1 John 1:5.

Teaching God will torture is on par with teaching the sun has ice. Torture is the workings of a sick mind. Torture is not something God can do. It can be a product of free will. But not from God's direct involvement. Two evils do not make a right.

Thanks for the reply. You asked several questions which seem to point at your view of judgment.
It seems like you are saying, though I'm not hearing it explicitly, that God will not torture because He is a God of love and mercy. Is that correct?

If that is your view of justice and God, I thought that extension of mercy is why Jesus came so whosoever believeth would not perish.
However if we reject the mercy given so freely to us, what is left? God is merciful extremely, but God is no fool.

 

[Acts2:38]

God rules over everything. Fact.

We need to filter thoughts, books and films through scripture or state ''in my opinion''.

I don't see statements like ''demons torturing people in hell'' survive a scriptural filter. God is just Psalm 25:18 and punishment is according to deeds Rom 2:6.

There is probably some truth to chaos in Hades as the white throne judgement has not yet taken place. After this sentences are passed and everyone not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the eternal lake of fire.

My scriptural thoughts of Hades and eternal Hell are as follows:

I believe some demons are currently imprisoned in Hades. They are the worst of the worst. So, these guys are not hurting anyone. If they were not imprisoned they would likely make life in Hades unbearable. There are levels of evil among angels just as there are among humans. Only God is perfectly good Mark 10:18. Humans will integrate with an already functioning society of angels. Both in Hades and Heaven.

Hades and eternal hell will be places of constant torment. As, I believe there is no blur on your reality. Humans and angels there will fully grasp that for eternity they are separated from God, angels and saints. They will not take part in niceties of heaven. They will be eternally surrounded by those who could not sincerely repent of their sins Psalm 51:17. Not all around them will be unbearable. But, not a single person or fallen angel in hell can be 100% trusted. Your neighbor will be a thief. Your shopkeeper an adulterer. Your president a murderer. There is a world of difference between being in the company of truly repentant sinners over unrepentant. This reality together with the isolation from God, creates a constant suffering of sort.

In scripture we find that fire is compared to not having the peace of God. Darkness is compared to being in the presence of evil John 3:19. Weeping and gnashing of teeth takes place because of regret and separation from God Luke 13:28.

I believe those in hell will be able to see heaven and those in heaven, hell. There is scripture that suggests this.

Torture, is highly unlikely. I say this with certainty from God's perspective. God is incapable of a punishment of torture. Torture is evil and God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. But I put a disclaimer on torture as I do not know how God would control the very wicked in hell from afar off whilst allowing for true free will to prevail. We know that He self restricts Himself to allow for true free will. This is why I believe He will use many of us to be on a ''hell duty'' of sort. This is a personal belief. It has some logic to it as scripture makes it clear that the wicked cannot be with God, but it says nothing to prohibit us from going wherever we want to. In fact we reign over everything with Jesus. An eternal hell will be a part of this surely.

I just cannot swallow the pill that those who '''barely''' don't make it into heaven 1 Pet 4:18 being utterly forgotten. Or those who didn't make it by a mile, also being forgotten. It does not seem very Christian. It is God's nature to love His enemy. This is why He keeps them alive and honors their free will decision to live away from Him. If it is not imposing on them, I believe we will have opportunity to visit and perhaps take them some niceties. We just need to consider something like the Geneva convention I believe to get a better understanding of what hell will be like.

The best way to better grasp what to expect in hell is to first properly grasp the Creator of hell.

He is love 1 John 4:8
He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17
He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5
He is impartial Acts 10:34
He is fair and just Psalm 25:8

and then read the full context of all the scripture that speaks on hell.

The worst thing you can do is read a book written by someone who wants to get rich off of its sales or hear a sermon by a pastor who wants to increase membership.

I think a good example is the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a good place to read about what hell could be like.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I think a good example is the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a good place to read about what hell could be like.

Thank you.

-WNL

 

[Curtis]

Eventually everyone in Hell today will find themselves in the lake of fire at a later date.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

All those in the lake of fire will be tormented forever and ever!
Notice: it says, "the smoke of their torment......." It does not say the smoke of God's torment or the smoke of the devil's torment.

There is no greater torment of the mind than knowing what you should have done that is right (like accepting Christ as your savior) and not doing it when it is too late now!

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[KingJ]

I think a good example is the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a good place to read about what hell could be like.

Not really. The rich man is in Hades. The white throne judgement has not yet taken place. Hades is a waiting place.

The rich man was in a type of fire. Nobody on fire asks for a drop of water. I see Hades as more a chaotic place. Not sure how much control God exercises over it.

The thing to understand about God is free will. He gives free will to all. To us that will be with Him in heaven and then also to those that won't. As such it is very possible that a lot of torment / harassment be from others who are in Hades with you. I guess angels would enforce some rules there.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for the reply. You asked several questions which seem to point at your view of judgment.
It seems like you are saying, though I'm not hearing it explicitly, that God will not torture because He is a God of love and mercy. Is that correct?

If that is your view of justice and God, I thought that extension of mercy is why Jesus came so whosoever believeth would not perish.
However if we reject the mercy given so freely to us, what is left? God is merciful extremely, but God is no fool.

Let me summarize my post for you.

Torturing someone is wicked. God is not wicked.

 

[KingJ]

There is no greater torment of the mind than knowing what you should have done that is right (like accepting Christ as your savior) and not doing it when it is too late now!

I don't agree with this thinking.

Those that go to hell, go to hell because they would never truly repent of their sins and accept Jesus.

God is not a fool that would send some there due to timing issues.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Let me summarize my post for you.

Torturing someone is wicked. God is not wicked.

Thanks for simplifying your position. Let me know what you think about this.
So,
Where are you getting your definition of wicked from?

If God gets to make the rules and decide good and evil, right and wrong, than perhaps
based on that reasoning torturing is not wicked as you see it?

For example, I see you saying something like killing (taking a life) is wrong and good people don't kill.
However, if a robber breaks into my home and I call the police, and the law enforcement officer takes the
life (kills) the robber in attempts to protect me because the robber did not stop when the police said stop,
the act of the officer would not be bad but it would be good.

From my perspective it seems like you are determining the value or assessing worth (good or evil) solely
based on the action itself, not based on who is doing the action and why they are doing it.
Therefore you and I come to different conclusions because I see that actions aren't always judged
within themselves but have to be seen in context.

Thus your statement "torture is wicked" for me is a human and earthly perspective on the matter.
Whereas if you were to step back and take a look at it from a greater perspective it might yield a different
conclusion.

For example, someone might say that sticking a baby with a needle is torture and a man that sticks needles
in babies is evil thus no good man will do that. However, if that needle is a medical needle to give a
life saving medication and he is a doctor, then that act of sticking the needle in the baby is not evil but good.
Though it would be evil if he was just sticking the babies with needles for the fun of it.

Thus I see that infliction of pain on individuals by God, or God allowing those individuals to have what they want,
which is rejection of His son Jesus, not as evil because I'm looking at it from a wider lens (I believe) and in a boarder
context.

With Love, WNL

 

[PloughBoy]

Yes “Sheol” is not the “Lake of Fire”

Happiness in the Twilight Zone

Rocky Valentine epitomizes our problem. Rocky stars in an episode of Twilight Zone(airing in the 60s) and is an unlucky, small-time thief who dies early in the episode. In the afterlife, Rocky wakes up next to a man named Pip, who he believes to be his guardian angel. Pip promises to give him whatever he desires. Rocky asks for the best the world has to offer: unlimited luck at the casino, to be desired by beautiful women, for universal acclaim, and more.

At first, the land where Rocky’s dreams come true seems like paradise, but as months go by, the life that Rocky thought he’d always wanted has lost its magic. In fact, it has grown positively distasteful to him. In a moment of rage, Rocky grabs Pip, his “guardian angel,” and says, “If I gotta stay here another day, I’m gonna go nuts! I don’t belong in heaven, see? I want to go to the other place.”

“Heaven?” his guardian angel replies, “Whatever gave you the idea that you were in heaven. This is the other place!”

Then the haunting voice of the narrator comes in, and says, “A scared, angry little man who never got a break. Now he has everything he’s ever wanted — and he’s going to have to live with it for eternity — in the Twilight Zone.”

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Yes “Sheol” is not the “Lake of Fire”

Happiness in the Twilight Zone

Rocky Valentine epitomizes our problem. Rocky stars in an episode of Twilight Zone(airing in the 60s) and is an unlucky, small-time thief who dies early in the episode. In the afterlife, Rocky wakes up next to a man named Pip, who he believes to be his guardian angel. Pip promises to give him whatever he desires. Rocky asks for the best the world has to offer: unlimited luck at the casino, to be desired by beautiful women, for universal acclaim, and more.

At first, the land where Rocky’s dreams come true seems like paradise, but as months go by, the life that Rocky thought he’d always wanted has lost its magic. In fact, it has grown positively distasteful to him. In a moment of rage, Rocky grabs Pip, his “guardian angel,” and says, “If I gotta stay here another day, I’m gonna go nuts! I don’t belong in heaven, see? I want to go to the other place.”

“Heaven?” his guardian angel replies, “Whatever gave you the idea that you were in heaven. This is the other place!”

Then the haunting voice of the narrator comes in, and says, “A scared, angry little man who never got a break. Now he has everything he’s ever wanted — and he’s going to have to live with it for eternity — in the Twilight Zone.”

Wow, that is a good share. Thank you. Thank you.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for simplifying your position. Let me know what you think about this.
So, Where are you getting your definition of wicked from?

From a working brain and God given nerve endings?

If God gets to make the rules and decide good and evil, right and wrong, than perhaps
based on that reasoning torturing is not wicked as you see it?

God does not ''make the rules''. He gives us the ability to grasp good and evil as He and the angels do Gen 3:22.

God, too has free will to be good or evil. Just read Rom 9. But fortunately for us, He chooses to be good. That is why we can rejoice Psalm 136:1.

Something like torture can never be defended as good. Just ask the poor person being tortured if he thinks 'good' is a word that comes to mind when screaming in pain.

For example, I see you saying something like killing (taking a life) is wrong and good people don't kill.

Never said that. Please quote me.

However, if a robber breaks into my home and I call the police, and the law enforcement officer takes the
life (kills) the robber in attempts to protect me because the robber did not stop when the police said stop, the act of the officer would not be bad but it would be good.

What you are doing here is what God wants us to do on all matters 1 Cor 2:15. We are to discern all matters. Even the matter of God punishing the wicked.

From my perspective it seems like you are determining the value or assessing worth (good or evil) solely
based on the action itself, not based on who is doing the action and why they are doing it.

No. You are manipulating my view and giving an unrelated example.

Lets say YOUR SON was the burglar. Instead of the cop killing him with his pistol, he decides to let his dog loose on him. He watched the dog bite and maul your son to death over a few hours.

Would you be here telling me the cop was good?

Therefore you and I come to different conclusions because I see that actions aren't always judged
within themselves but have to be seen in context.

There is no context needed to watching someone suffer horrendous and excruciating pain.

Never before has God dealt this kind of punishment to the wicked that He destroyed.

The only cruelty we see from God is with plagues. Plagues are His last ditch attempt to get people to repent.

Thus your statement "torture is wicked" for me is a human and earthly perspective on the matter.
Whereas if you were to step back and take a look at it from a greater perspective it might yield a different conclusion.

You arrive at your conclusion because you see killing as good sometimes? Brother, you really need to interrogate matters properly before arriving at conclusions.

For example, someone might say that sticking a baby with a needle is torture and a man that sticks needles in babies is evil thus no good man will do that. However, if that needle is a medical needle to give a life saving medication and he is a doctor, then that act of sticking the needle in the baby is not evil but good. Though it would be evil if he was just sticking the babies with needles for the fun of it.

You can grasp that sticking a baby multiple times for no medical reason is evil but you cannot grasp a teaching that our God will burn people on fire for all eternity is also evil?

Does using a baby in an example make you more heartless toward the suffering of wicked adults? Everyone was a baby at one point.

Thus I see that infliction of pain on individuals by God, or God allowing those individuals to have what they want,
which is rejection of His son Jesus, not as evil because I'm looking at it from a wider lens (I believe) and in a boarder

Let's say YOUR CHILD simply rejected Jesus. You would be ok with him screaming in pain in hell for all eternity? You will just tell yourself that from God's perspective, the alignment of the stars and the fact that it is not woman's day makes it ok? Just hilariously shocking reasoning.

NOBODY can defend God as good if people are tortured.

When Abraham saw God destroy Sodom, he agreed with God Gen 18. He saw their destruction as a righteous act. However, if God said to Abraham ''Abraham, I am going to make the people of Sodom cry and suffer in pain for a year. The fire and brimstone I rain on them will burn them everyday for a year. At which point they die from too much harassment. I want to see them suffer''. Abraham would have said ''get behind me satan''.

Is this really that hard to grasp?

 

[Acts2:38]

Not really. The rich man is in Hades. The white throne judgement has not yet taken place. Hades is a waiting place.

The rich man was in a type of fire. Nobody on fire asks for a drop of water. I see Hades as more a chaotic place. Not sure how much control God exercises over it.

The thing to understand about God is free will. He gives free will to all. To us that will be with Him in heaven and then also to those that won't. As such it is very possible that a lot of torment / harassment be from others who are in Hades with you. I guess angels would enforce some rules there.

You should probably re-read my statement

I think a good example is the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a good place to read about what hell could be like.

 

[Dave M]

yea I agree with acts the rich man and Lazarus was the first thing that poped in my mind when I read the thread.

I used to watch so many of those NDE a couple things in the bible have me wondering if they are real.

The Rich man and Lazarus is a great example of what Gods word says about NDE because the rich man begs Abraham to send someone back from the dead to warn his brothers about hell, BUT Abrams says NO they dont listen to the prophets they wont listen to anyone if we send them back even from the grave.

So here we have the word of GOd saying that no one is coming back from death to warn anyone. Yet there are thousands if not more people claiming NDE some of them seems pretty convincing, but do they line up with the word of GOd??

another time in scripture we have Paul telling us it is against the law to speak of things he saw while in heaven.

 

[Rockerduck]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I know a man in Christ about fourteen years ago (whether he was in the body I cannot tell, or whether he was out of the body I cannot tell, God knows) who was taken up into the third heaven. 3 And I know the same man (whether in the body or out of the body I cannot tell, God knows), 4 how he was taken up into Paradise and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter.

According to this verse, no one has seen heaven and can speak about it. This probably applies for Hell also.