People before Christ from the Old Testament, are they saved?

[rhern53]

Only one problem with your time line there.
Most humans will have been destroyed before the beginning of the thousand year reign, "as a man will be more rare than fine gold" Isaiah 13:9-12 as the Bible puts it.
All of those that came and died before the reign begins (elect excluded) will remain in the grave until AFTER the 1000 yrs have ended. Then the general resurrection of the dead occurs. At that point the great throne judgement occurs where every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. "All flesh shall see the salvation of God" Luke 3:6
Well entering into the kingdom does require one to be born again and that is the beginning of eternal life, it is the consumption of the Plan (Jesus the pattern Son) that eventually
leads Him to reveal the Father which in His own words "Life eternal is to know Thee the only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
So they do have fitment speaking solely to eternal life within the kingdom.
But hey, those are verses that you posted asking if one over ruled the other. The answer is still NO.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.



5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

 

[B-A-C]

Sometimes, we think of John 19:30; being the moment the New Covenant started, and in some ways it is.
I guess we could say it is the moment in time when it was "finished".

So then what about saints in the old testament?

Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My anger, They certainly shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I don't believe Jesus was sacrificed and crucified before the foundation of the world, but I believe this means
God already had a plan for salvation before man was ever created. Did God plan for Adam to fail? Some people think so.
That's another topic for another thread, but whether He did or didn't, God had a plan B already in place.

Heb 10:1; For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2; Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
Heb 10:3; But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

No one was actually saved by the animal sacrifices in the old testament, they were just a place holder until the real sacrifice was made.
God gave His people a way to prove their belief, an act to commit in order to show they believed in Him and His promises.
A way for their acts of faith to be "credited".

Heb 10:5; Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
Heb 10:6; You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
Heb 10:7; Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”
Heb 10:8; After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law),
Heb 10:9; then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10; By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

God wasn't pleased by animal sacrifices, they couldn't take away anyone's sin. But He had a body prepared (Jesus, His only Son)
and We (as well as the saints of the old testament) have been sanctified by Jesus's sacrifice.

Rom 4:1; What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2; For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.

This whole works of the flesh thing has been misconstrued by many over the years, but the work of the flesh here is circumcision. (as we will see in the next several verses)

Rom 4:3; For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4; Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5; But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

God "credited" Abraham (and those who followed after him) for faith. Abraham Believed God. Now we know Abraham did some sacrifices ( Gen 15:9-11; )
But Abraham didn't believe these would save him, it was his faith in God that was "credited" as righteousness.
When you have a credit card, you can buy things that you don't have money for right now. The credit card is a promise that you will pay later.
The animal sacrifices and faith of the saints in the old testament were "credited" to them for something they couldn't pay, but got paid in full later (Jesus's sacrifice)

Rom 4:9; Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
Rom 4:10; How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Rom 4:11; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Rom 4:12; and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13; For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham received this promise while he was uncircumcised, the works of the flesh (circumcision) didn't save him. It was his faith in God to keep His promises that was credited as righteousness.
But the credit card payment wasn't paid until Jesus died on the cross.

James 2:21; Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
James 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
James 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

 

[Br. Bear]

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:24-26

 

[B-A-C]

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Amen, the hero's of the faith did the acts of faith.
Noah built an Ark, Rahab hid the spies, Moses left Egypt, Abraham went to a strange new land, Sarah believed she was going to conceive a baby, Abraham offered up Isaac, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, etc...

Heb 11:13; All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

 

[Samson2020]

I don't believe Jesus was sacrificed and crucified before the foundation of the world, but I believe this means
God already had a plan for salvation before man was ever created. Did God plan for Adam to fail? Some people think so.
That's another topic for another thread, but whether He did or didn't, God had a plan B already in place.

God didn't need a plan B because plan A is working out exactly as forseen until this day and until the works are finished. Yes the works, in Gods mind, were finished like a
blueprint but they were not carried out in the flesh of man until the world and man were formed and continue to this very day. Both of which were/are part of the plan/works.
Plan A included the sacrifice of Jesus for the sin of the world, thus Adams disobedience was forseen already, but in order to be like God man needs to know good and evil Gen 3:22, thus even the disobedience was part of the plan. In order to have sons, God needed man to know good and evil ,just as God does, as he made them both, and eventually overcome evil, man cannot do that without help from the spirit of God for he doesn't even acknowledge that what he does is evil, until convicted of the wrong he's doing. This is where being born of the Spirit begins ones journey into sonship for the fallen man.
God chooses when each shall begin this period of suffering in the flesh for good while continually being bombarded with evil that he is commanded to forgive, and return blessing for cursing,
turn the other cheek, and love your enemies, thus becoming more like his Father. Maturity. Jesus is our example-forgive those that slew you in the flesh, even though it was Gods doing for the perfecting of Jesus and eventually for the rest of us.

God wasn't pleased by animal sacrifices, they couldn't take away anyone's sin. But He had a body prepared (Jesus, His only Son)
and We (as well as the saints of the old testament) have been sanctified by Jesus's sacrifice.

Good point as a man cannot attain to salvation, justification, or sanctification apart from the grace of God. Thus God is still in control of every aspect of ones salvation and maturity that follows.
For it is by grace ye are saved through faith and that faith is a gift from the Father, until received from His hand your just a fallen, dead, spiritually speaking, human.

 

[Dave M]

and the Holy Ghost was not given until after His ascension s

yet scripture tells us John had the Holy spirit when he was in the womb of his Mother.

 

[Samson2020]

yet scripture tells us John had the Holly spirit when he was in the womb of his Mother.

Yes just as certain prophets had annointings of the Holy Ghost. You might say these were a loan if you will for their particular ministry according to the time they lived.

Scripture tells us that the Holy Ghost was not Given until after His ascension. This giving is being born of the Spirit of God. Prior to that giving, the rest were annointings for ministry.
Otherwise JTB would be in the kingdom but Jesus says that even the least IN THE KINGDOM is greater than he. Thus He could never have been born of the Spirit. Especially since
that covenant had not yet been established until after the death of Jesus.

 

[Dave M]

Yes just as certain prophets had annointings of the Holy Ghost. You might say these were a loan if you will for their particular ministry according to the time they lived.

Scripture tells us that the Holy Ghost was not Given until after His ascension. This giving is being born of the Spirit of God. Prior to that giving, the rest were annointings for ministry.
Otherwise JTB would be in the kingdom but Jesus says that even the least IN THE KINGDOM is greater than he. Thus He could never have been born of the Spirit. Especially since
that covenant had not yet been established until after the death of Jesus.

John was the bridge between the OT and the NT he was filled with the spirit of God, and I can assure JTB is currently in the kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

 

[Samson2020]

John was the bridge between the OT and the NT he was filled with the spirit of God, and I can assure JTB is currently in the kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Filled with the Spirit is not the same as being BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

 

[Reba1]

The replies in this thread arr a sad testement to the OTand the grace of God

 

[Brother Paul]

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

Salvation (the gift of God was and is by grace through faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted As Righteousness

 

[rhern53]

The Kingdom, King, Messiah are promised to Israel.

For Christians will be members of the Body of Christ and Coheirs with Jesus and they have The Hope of Heaven

 

[Born Again 2004]

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

That is totally up to God to determine how and who are the Saints before us, but scripture tells us the Saints will be raised first (incorruptible) when Jesus returns to gather His Church of Belivers!

 

[Samson2020]

That is totally up to God to determine how and who are the Saints before us, but scripture tells us the Saints will be raised first (incorruptible) when Jesus returns to gather His Church of Belivers!

His Church, that's the key. Without the Spirit ye are none of His. The ones who died prior to His death and ascension and the giving of the Holy Ghost along with a seed from Jesus' overcoming,
perfected, Spirit can not be part of the Church (yet) as they, while living, never were born again nor did they suffer for His names sake. Both are required. Being born again in order to see the kingdom and suffering or much tribulation in order to enter into the kingdom. All those prior were shut out and under the Law. But God knows exactly what He's doing and what's gonna happen in the fullness of the dispensation of TIMES. And they will be brought along into life during one of those Times.
God promised eternal life even before the foundation of the world, before sin was sin. But eternal life needs the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to overcome the desire to dispense
evil except where dosed accordingly to bring one to repentance. Titus 1:2
My question would be unto whom did He promise eternal life?
The answer would be all spirits that came out from God that were placed in a human body in order to experience good and evil, and once born again through His grace, suffer into understanding
what evil is used for thus becoming like their Father. Gen 3:22 Man could not live with just the knowledge of good and evil for He would always turn to evil and thus die. Without the
seed of life from an overcoming Spirit (Jesus'), man had no chance at all as the Law of the Old testament proved in that all were sinners in one respect or another.
"All things work to the good for those that love His appearing" This includes evil. Not that evil is good, but it works for our good, as it did for Jesus in making Him perfect and we in like fashion eventually.

 

[Reba1]

The children of Israel never suffered? Job did not suffer? Have you ever completely read the OT. King David's sin cost him his sons life. Are you confident you could stand for the Lord as Shadrach Meshach and Abednego did? If you believe in the trinity of God are the 3 not all one? Or this verse, Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Reba1]

The answer would be all spirits that came out from God that were placed in a human body in order to experience good and evil, and once born again through His grace, suffer into understanding
what evil is used for thus becoming like their Father.

The above sound very LDS . Are you of the Mormon church?

 

[rhern53]

His Church, that's the key. Without the Spirit ye are none of His. The ones who died prior to His death and ascension and the giving of the Holy Ghost along with a seed from Jesus' overcoming,
perfected, Spirit can not be part of the Church (yet) as they, while living, never were born again nor did they suffer for His names sake. Both are required. Being born again in order to see the kingdom and suffering or much tribulation in order to enter into the kingdom. All those prior were shut out and under the Law.

All those prior were shut out and under the Law. what does this mean. Do they not have a chance to enter the Kingdom. is this a literal enter the Kingdom

 

[rhern53]

The above sound very LDS . Are you of the Mormon church?

He does have some valid points

 

[Samson2020]

The above sound very LDS . Are you of the Mormon church?

There is only one Church and that is the Church that is the body of Christ. I associate with no organized religious group whatsoever.
It is obvious by your reaction that you do not understand suffering for His names sake. The Old testament people suffered according to the condemnation they were under I agree with that.
The suffering for revelation, suffering to see/understand God, suffering for salvation, suffering for sonship, suffering for judgement, suffering for a change of mind etc... are sufferings
that only the elect can undertake simply because God has chosen them to undertake those sufferings to bring them to a higher level of maturity, spiritually speaking.
Job did suffer, and for good reason, when God was done with him he said simply my ear has heard of thee but now I see thee. Thus he suffered according to Gods plan that Job would see
God for who He is and just what power He has. This was an example for the elect in order to understand why God would allow such suffering to happen to them. Evil suffered produced
vision for Job.

Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."

Here we have a similar situation to a born again Christian, maybe not perfect, but upright, fearing God and eschewing evil. The Christian suffers according to what next revelation God is wanting/willing to reveal to him/her. Just as God revealed Himself to Job. In the Christians case he has been born again and suffers evil against him to perfect him. I.E. forgive sin
against him, turn the other cheek, cause no harm to any man, do good to those that despitefully use and persecute you, give expecting nothing in return etc... following Jesus' example.

Now if you read the post you'd see that I said suffering to enter the kingdom. No one would have suffered in order to enter the kingdom in the OT times as the kingdom was not opened
until after the New Covenant was established. That was the point of including that part in the post. They could not see the kingdom in the first place as they were not born of the spirit
which Jesus said in order to SEE the kingdom you must be, so why and how would they be able to suffer for the good that they did when they still lived under an eye for an eye law,
and were powerless, as they were still completely carnally minded?

PS the Jehovah witnesses and the Mormons RUN from me. Both like all demon-nations have their own set of rules that disallow vision other than what their home office allows.
I only listen to the Holy Spirit, who leads us into ALL TRUTH and is no lie, and try to keep up when He is teaching. Afterall John said it best that IF you have the anointing of Him,
YOU NEED NOT THAT A MAN SHOULD TEACH YOU.

PEACE

 

[Samson2020]

All those prior were shut out and under the Law. what does this mean. Do they not have a chance to enter the Kingdom. is this a literal enter the Kingdom

Spiritually speaking, YES. Using Jesus' own words He tells us that we must lose our lives in order to save/find them. Correct? This loss of "life as you knew it" brings newness of life in line with
righteousness, instead of carnality which is at odds with God, the loss of your carnality will elevate the spiritual son within you as the carnality dies, This is the death/loss of life He spoke of.

To be carnally minded is death................... But to be spiritually minded is life.........

Paul spoke to the war that took place within him and this is exactly what he spoke about. The flesh wants to stay the same but the spiritual son within is striving to please his Father, thus
there is a continual dying on a daily basis to the flesh so that the inner son can continue to grow.

Think of it like mulch, the carnal mind as it dies is food for the spiritual son much like mulch as it decomposes feeds the plant that covers it. The carnal mind is at odds with God and
as a son of God it is at odds with the son within you as well. Who will win? Depends on just how badly you want to be a son. This is the precious pearl.

The first question you asked can be answered simply with, the New covenant had not been established yet so yes they were shut out from the kindgom. They could not see it without
being born of the Spirit. Thus they could not enter what they could not see/understand.

Second question, yes they will in the second death period or after. I know thats too much for 99.9% but it's coming.

Lets also keep in mind that were told "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the imagination of a man, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him."
paraphrased a tad bit, but it lets us know that God is still withholding secrets, there is more to be revealed!