OT verse NT

[KingJ]

@KingJ I strongly recommend you spend some time reading the book of Deuteronomy from beginning to end with fresh eyes. Ask yourself where you can see grace, and love and God's favour there.

Hekuran, in the OT did God ordain a stoning to death / excommunication for 'extremely' disobedient children? Yes or No. Did God ordain a blessing / open windows of heaven for the faithful tither? Yes or No? Did God kill many in the desert for idolatry and sexual immorality? Yes or No?

I propose you try better grasp what I am trying to say. I DO NOT believe God in the OT was evil. I DO believe He loved the Jews. THAT is not the issue we are discussing.

We are discussing the curse of the law that was specifically on the Jews and the necessity of blessings to counter those curses.

 

[KingJ]

I'm still not convinced it ever changed.

Our love for God is shown in our obedience.

old testament
Exod 20:6; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deut 5:10; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

new testament
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

His love for us depends on our obedience

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

I would word this probably the opposite of what you said above.
Our obedience to the law carries weight with how much God loves us, and how much we love Him.

Matt 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The whole law depends on our love... even in the new testament. I find it interesting
that Jesus was asked for only "one" (the greatest) commandment.
But Jesus didn't give just one as the answer. It seems both commandments (about love)
carry equal weight.

BAC, you have not properly read my posts. You are latching on to cherry picked lines. I actually don't mind, because I agree with you on this and it is a strong point you are making.

If we apply our minds to grasping why it is that obedience pleases God, we find that it is because obedience to His law entails / requires a true hatred of what is evil. God is righteous. We are after His heart if we hate what is wicked Rom 12:9. This is why He does not need to be physically present with us. He does not need / want a back scratch, hug or a kiss to feel love.

If we hate what is evil, respect Him with our bodies, avoid idolatry and love others, we love Him. All His commandments point to this. So obedience to His commandments need to be understood in that light.

The unsaved will interpret obedience to His commandments as blind / ridiculous laws a tyrant has made that need to be followed without question because God is god. They would then dig for reasoning to paint this god as wicked and justify their wickedness as good in order to sleep at night. The OT Jew who felt this way, was not able to get away with this. The curse of the law would deal with him. Via stoning or ex-communication.

Now, it worked in both directions. The Jew who hated what is wicked, was obedient and pursued Godliness / love. This guy could not escape God's blessing. He would live long. He would be financially blessed. He would see the promised land. He would see his enemies crushed. He would see miracles / God's literal hand.

Today, different covenant. Same God. God does not ordain stoning for disobedience nor does He drop the read sea on our enemies. We are not in the old covenant, we are in a new one. So, expecting / demanding God bless us, crush our enemies in any OT fashion, is gone. We have moved on to a new covenant. The blood of Jesus has grafted us into His family. A position a faithful Jew was never in.

If you are going to jump harder on the law subject, we are going to be having an Arminian vs OSAS discussion. I am a 100% OSAS believer.

 

[Hekuran]

Hekuran, in the OT did God ordain a stoning to death / excommunication for 'extremely' disobedient children? Yes or No. Did God ordain a blessing / open windows of heaven for the faithful tither? Yes or No? Did God kill many in the desert for idolatry and sexual immorality? Yes or No?

I propose you try better grasp what I am trying to say. I DO NOT believe God in the OT was evil. I DO believe He loved the Jews. THAT is not the issue we are discussing.

We are discussing the curse of the law that was specifically on the Jews and the necessity of blessings to counter those curses.

Are binary options a helpful way to grasp the wonders of salvation? Yes or No?

You are discussing the curse of the law. I'm wondering why you think "the curse of the law" is a good approach to understanding the way God chose and led his people. I wonder if any Israelite would be able to comprehend what you mean by that phrase.

God chose the Israelites, revealed himself to them, rescued them from slavery, and showed them how to live and prosper under his rule.

From Deuteronomy 6:20-24

In the future, when your son asks you “What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors. The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.​

As a thought experiment, try switching some words to introduce New Testament concepts. "Death" for "Egypt", "Kingdom of God" for "promised Land", be "baptised into the name of Jesus Christ" for "obey decrees", and "inherit eternal life" for "prosper".

 

[Dave M]

anyone ever done a study of the parrells of the OT and NT ?? I have touched on it and it was mind blowing just the little I dug in to it

 

[B-A-C]

anyone ever done a study of the parrells of the OT and NT ?? I have touched on it and it was mind blowing just the little I dug in to it

John 5:39; "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

There was no "new testament" when Jesus said this.
There are a great many "types" of Christ in the old testament. Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, Boaz, the Ark,

For example look at Isaac. His Father leads him up a hill to be sacrificed. He carries the wood on his back.
All his friends leave him as he is going up the hill. When he gets to the top of the hill, God provides a "lamb".
Does any of that remind you of someone else? Someone who had to carry wood on His back up a hill and all His friends
desert Him?

The new testament, the "gospel" reveals God's plan of salvation. The old testament reveals God's character, nature and holiness.

John 20:12; and she *saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying.

Can you think of something else in the old testament that had two angels.. with a mercy seat between them?

The Ark saves Noah's family, the remnants of mankind from destruction in the flood.
Kind of like Jesus saves his "family" ( a remnant of mankind) from destruction.

Adam Himself was a "type" of Christ in a way.
Rom 5:14; Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Ruth's husband dies. She has nothing. No lands, no property, no family really.
She knows she needs something to survive. Naomi tells her how to pursue Boaz a man who has everything.
Boaz ends up sharing all he has with Ruth, (they marry and have children).

We may think we are rich in material things, but we have nothing. Without Jesus... we are nothing, we have nothing.
But Jesus shares His riches, His inheritance into God's family, God's kingdom with us.

There are dozens more.... but the old testament Reveals Jesus to us.
How can we know what Jesus did for us, why He did it, why we still need a high priest,
without reading the OT? How can we know what sin is without reading the OT?
How can we even know "who/what" the Messiah was without reading the OT?

Moses leads the Jews "out of bondage". Does anyone in the new testament do that for us?

Joshua leads the Jews into the promised land. Does anyone in the new testament do that for us?

A fourth person "ilke the Son of God" protected Shadrach. Meshach and Abednigo in the fire. Does anyone in the new testament protect us from the fire?

Joseph was reject by his family, sold into slavery... but he made a place for his family to survive the famine and draught. Do anyone do that for us in the new testament?

The list goes on.

When God passed by Moses on the mountain. He hides in the cleft of the rock so that God's glory won't kill him. His sheer Holiness would just melt us and turn us to ashes.
Who is our cleft in the rock that we can hide in and take refuge in in the new testament?

 

[B-A-C]

This may sound like a mean thing to say... but I promise it isn't meant that way.

We should see Jesus all through the Bible. In every old testament story we should see Jesus.
Jesus is "the Word". The Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. No part of the "Word" doesn't
reveal Jesus to us.

Sometimes when people make statement here on TJ, about why God did this, or why God did that,
I can tell that they don't "see Jesus" in the passage that they are asking about.
I don't know if there is any way.. that any of us.. can "make" someone see Jesus.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal Him to us... through the scriptures. But when He is revealed to us...
Oh what a wonderful glorious Savior we have.

When people are unable to see this... sometimes it's very obvious in the comments they make.
I feel bad for them. But other than praying, I don't know what to do that can cause this to happen.
I don't hate.. or even dislike these people. I just wonder why they continue to be blind. Sometimes
it saddens me. But every now and then someone shares shares something that reveals Jesus to us
through the scriptures. I think that glorifies God. I also think it edifies us.

 

[Dave M]

thanks for digging out those treasures @B-A-C

 

[Hekuran]

anyone ever done a study of the parrells of the OT and NT ?? I have touched on it and it was mind blowing just the little I dug in to it

Tell us more

 

[Dave M]

I had not dug much, but I was listening to a guy saying how Mosses leading and freeing the people out of Egypt he was there savior just like Jesus is our savior. He went on to say that is why he believes we can loose salvation because just as Mosses led people out of slavery in egypt and saved them they still chose to go back to there old ways and perished and basically lost there salvation. He made sure he pointed out that was speculation on his part in regards to osas which I respect. But really for the first time I just recently started seeing these parallels and they just awesome how God works.

I think this is the video if you watch it let me know what you think

 

[B-A-C]

I mentioned earlier about Isaac being a "type" of Jesus in the old testament.

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:18; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."
Heb 11:19; He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Now some of us think it is cruel that God would ask Abraham to kill Isaac.
But have we ever considered Heb 11:19; ? Even if Abraham would have followed through and killed Isaac.
Abraham believed God would have raised him (Isaac) from the dead. So it wasn't like Abraham thought he
would never see Isaac again.

I find it little short of amazing that Abraham had that kind of faith. The apostles saw Jesus do this a few times,
maybe we could understand their faith. But where did Abraham get this faith?

One of the things the OT can teach us, is what faith really is.

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

Abraham believed God. He believed God to the point that He thought God could bring Isaac back from the dead. He was even willing to prove it.

How many of us have that kind of faith? It seems that even though the Apostles saw Jesus raise people from the dead, not many of them believed that He Himself would actually be raised from the dead.

 

[Curtis]

Deuteronomy 28 tells of blessings, or curses the will come upon those who obey or disobey. It is called the "curse of the law". The new Testament reveals to us that we have been "redeemed" from the "curse of the law.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[B-A-C]

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Does this mean the commandments no longer have any use for Christians?

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Does this mean we can just go on sinning?

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Does this mean there are no consequences if we choose to keep disobeying God?

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Curtis]

Does this mean the commandments no longer have any use for Christians?

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Does this mean we can just go on sinning?

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Does this mean there are no consequences if we choose to keep disobeying God?

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

There are two separate laws spoken of in scripture. The "Mosaic law", written and given by Moses. It is contained in "ordinances". The other is the law (10 commandments) (also known as the "royal law") written by God and given to man.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The curse of the law, which all believers have been redeemed from, is the law contained in ordinances. The death of Jesus delivered us from it's curse for not obeying, and doing all that it demands.
The 10 commandments are fulfilled by doing one commandment, which is loving another. (James 2:8) Loving others and living by the "law of faith" (Romans 3:27) are the only commandments the believer does.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[B-A-C]

The "Mosaic law", written and given by Moses.

Written by Moses?

Deut 4:12; Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice.
Deut 4:13; So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deut 5:22; “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deut 10:1-4; “At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Cut out for yourself two tablets of stone like the former ones, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make an ark of wood for yourself. I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.’ So I made an ark of acacia wood and cut out two tablets of stone like the former ones, and went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hand. He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.

 

[Curtis]

Written by Moses?

Deut 4:12; Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice.
Deut 4:13; So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deut 5:22; “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deut 10:1-4; “At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Cut out for yourself two tablets of stone like the former ones, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make an ark of wood for yourself. I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.’ So I made an ark of acacia wood and cut out two tablets of stone like the former ones, and went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hand. He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.

2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.

Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

 

[At Peace]

Does this mean the commandments no longer have any use for Christians?

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Does this mean we can just go on sinning?

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Does this mean there are no consequences if we choose to keep disobeying God?

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You have made it clear that the commandments...summed up as... "Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself", are still in force in the NT.
Wouldn't you think God would make it possible to accomplish that kind of love?
Personally, I'm glad He did.
But what of those who choose to disobey?
A lake of fire awaits.

 

[B-A-C]

You have made it clear that the commandments...summed up as... "Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself", are still in force in the NT.
Wouldn't you think God would make it possible to accomplish that kind of love?

I think you may be confused. I am neither the one who summed it up as only two, nor the one who said it wasn't possible.

 

[KingJ]

Written by Moses?

Deut 4:12; Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice.
Deut 4:13; So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deut 5:22; “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deut 10:1-4; “At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Cut out for yourself two tablets of stone like the former ones, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make an ark of wood for yourself. I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.’ So I made an ark of acacia wood and cut out two tablets of stone like the former ones, and went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hand. He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.

Curtis did say in his first line in post #33 that God wrote the ten commandments :wink:.

 

[KingJ]

This may sound like a mean thing to say... but I promise it isn't meant that way.

We should see Jesus all through the Bible. In every old testament story we should see Jesus.
Jesus is "the Word". The Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. No part of the "Word" doesn't
reveal Jesus to us.

Sometimes when people make statement here on TJ, about why God did this, or why God did that,
I can tell that they don't "see Jesus" in the passage that they are asking about.
I don't know if there is any way.. that any of us.. can "make" someone see Jesus.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal Him to us... through the scriptures. But when He is revealed to us...
Oh what a wonderful glorious Savior we have.

When people are unable to see this... sometimes it's very obvious in the comments they make.
I feel bad for them. But other than praying, I don't know what to do that can cause this to happen.
I don't hate.. or even dislike these people. I just wonder why they continue to be blind. Sometimes
it saddens me. But every now and then someone shares shares something that reveals Jesus to us
through the scriptures. I think that glorifies God. I also think it edifies us.

Very true. Without Jesus there would be no scripture. Jesus was part and parcel of mankind's creation as scripture says 'the cross / us in Christ, was planned before the foundations of the earth'.

So I agree that all scripture points to Him. Jews chosen for his earthly bloodline. NT teaching all about a relationship with Him.

I also find it interesting that God gives us parallels like family and spouses. We perfectly grasp the terms, child of God and bride of Christ. We understand the closeness of a relationship.

This is the reason we have to separate OT from NT. Yes, God always wanted a relationship with the Jews as He does with all of us. But the curse of the law, created an adverse relationship with many. A forced relationship.

 

[At Peace]

I think you may be confused. I am neither the one who summed it up as only two, nor the one who said it wasn't possible.

All the law and prophets are "summed up" with "love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself".
Jesus is the One who "summed it up".

Then you are in agreement with me that obedience IS possible?
So, what of those who decide to be disobedient?