OT verse NT

[Dave M]

I have been reading a lot of the OT lately and one particular theme seems to stick out through it is. God promise the Israelite's prosperity and blessing if they are obedient. And God also promises curses and bad things if they are disobedient.

So my question is how or if this relates to us today?


Thanks

 

[Hekuran]

Is this a Deuteronomy 29 and 30 question?

Before God offers the Israelites the choice of obedience or disobedience, blessing or curses, he reminds them that he has saved them from slavery in Egypt.

God acts first to give salvation, it is up to people whether to accept or reject.

Same pattern in the Old and New Testaments. I suspect that's a big part of Jesus meaning when he tells his disciples 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.'

Salvation from Slavery the hand of Pharaoh is a prophetic signpost pointing to salvation from death.

 

[KingJ]

I have been reading a lot of the OT lately and one particular theme seems to stick out through it is. God promise the Israelite's prosperity and blessing if they are obedient. And God also promises curses and bad things if they are disobedient.

So my question is how or if this relates to us today?


Thanks

It does not relate to us at all. We can only learn from it. God does not change. But the cross is now past tense.

God dealt with the Jews like we would a helper in our house. We are now a bride. A child.

God 'had' to dangle a carrot / give a reward. Now, God does not need to. It is like paying our helper for good service. Now, the bride also demands payment? It is simply hilarious. The highest level of ignorance and wishful thinking. I also feel it is a complete insult, slap in the face to God. Complete mockery of the cross.

Anyone who proposes we treat God as the Jews did has utterly and completely failed at grasping Christianity.

So if anyone wants to enforce OT teaching, they need to be crystal clear. Because they are walking on thin ice.

Paying a helper for cleaning the kitchen = Good.
Paying a wife for cleaning the kitchen = Bad.

The same deed, polar opposite results .

 

[At Peace]

I have been reading a lot of the OT lately and one particular theme seems to stick out through it is. God promise the Israelite's prosperity and blessing if they are obedient. And God also promises curses and bad things if they are disobedient.
So my question is how or if this relates to us today?
Thanks

Hi, Dave M,
It is written..."Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted." (1 Cor 10:6)
And ... "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (1 Cor 10:11)
Though these 1 Cor. verses deal with the Israelite flight from Egypt, it also applies to every other time the Jews disobeyed God...ie, Babylonian captivity etc.
The pattern...Disobey and suffer., or, Obey and be exalted.
The pattern still holds true.

 

[Hekuran]

So if anyone wants to enforce OT teaching, they need to be crystal clear. Because they are walking on thin ice.

Odd response.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Feels more like solid rock than thin ice to me.

Or consider Paul writing: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the servant of God may be equipped for every good work.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I love the OT with it's rich historical stories and how God reacted to man.
Through Jesus, the New Testament Covenant, ushered in by the death and resurrection of Jesus, was a new agreement with man that God instituted and replaced the OT Covenant.
This is just one scripture, that illustrates this: Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

• The Old Covenant
  • God made a covenant with the whole nation of Israel in Old Testament times
  • He gave them a lot of laws and commandments
    • If they kept them, then he would give them
      • financial blessing
      • health and long life
      • lots of children
    • If then broke them then
      • He would punish them
      • He would take away all the good things
      • Ultimately the nation would be destroyed
  • It was all based on their performance
  • It was mostly external

With the New Covenant, Jesus entered inside us...our hearts and minds, no longer would we tell each other who God is, we know who he is with this personal relationship.

• So my question is how or if this relates to us today? My thought is that it doesn't, we are under a New Covenant!
  
• With the New Covenant, God is no longer at war with Man!

 

[KingJ]

Odd response.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Feels more like solid rock than thin ice to me.

Or consider Paul writing: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the servant of God may be equipped for every good work.

The context is OT laws, curses and blessings. Jesus was not OT per sae. He stopped the stoning of a prostitute. Prior to Him doing such, God would have given the decision over to a counsel of elders. They would follow the law the prophets made clear. The law God made clear.

You are not comparing apples with apples. I also do not for one second disregard or think any less of any scripture in the OT. No scripture is in vein. But half truths are of the devil. We need to look at the OT through the cross.

When we enforce the law of blessings and curses, as many do, we are walking on thin ice as we are borderline false prophets. Such a fine line we walk just mentioning blessings and curses. Especially for a Christian who has tasted the truth of a relationship with God. To now put new believers in OT bondage / 'non relationship teaching', God HELP that person. If I was a judge (which a Christian is / should be) I would decide on close to the maximum punishment for such an individual.

A relationship with us is the reason Jesus died. We make ourselves a 100% enemy of the cross if we are guilty of trapping people in OT bondage of blessings and curses. God help that person who does it knowingly / for self gain!

 

[KingJ]

We have to put ourselves in God's shoes. Imagine you just gave your life for your bride. You are then re-united with them. Now one of your friend's advises them to treat you as though they are not your bride. As though you died for something / someone else.

Imagine the bride you died for saying: ''Hekuran, I cleaned the kitchen, I know you like a clean kitchen, so I slaved all day on it. I now demand you give me a biscuit. I am going to stand here nagging all day until you do. I believe your instruction manual that says you give biscuits to people who clean your kitchen, hold you to what you have written and do not budge on this expectation'.

I would permanently remove this 'friend' from my house.

 

[Hekuran]

Blessing and curses were never the starting point of God's, even in the Old Testament. Look at the opening of the story of Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3

Now the Lord said to Abram, ‘Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’​

We don't know why God chose Abram rather than anybody else. It's a spontaneous divine blessing to Abram first and to every family of the earth second. There's no suggestion of any kind of relationship that equates to a master and a paid servant.

I would suggest that like the melodies of a great piece of orchestral music, the same themes unite the whole Bible, growing in richness, texture and intensity as it unfolds.

 

[KingJ]

Blessing and curses were never the starting point of God's, even in the Old Testament. Look at the opening of the story of Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3

Now the Lord said to Abram, ‘Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’​

We don't know why God chose Abram rather than anybody else. It's a spontaneous divine blessing to Abram first and to every family of the earth second. There's no suggestion of any kind of relationship that equates to a master and a paid servant.

I would suggest that like the melodies of a great piece of orchestral music, the same themes unite the whole Bible, growing in richness, texture and intensity as it unfolds.

The context of 'paid servant' is religiosity. The Jews had rules and regulations enforced on them. Punishments for disobedience and blessings for obedience. That is not up for discussion.

What you are touching on, is the heart of God in the OT. You are pointing to a God that is the same today as He was then. I agree. If we just look at David. He committed sins that warranted the death penalty. God still found favor with him as a verse like Psalm 51:17 existed alongside the instructions to stone to death mortal sinners. We see God's heart bursting out of religiosity even in the OT. Perfect evidence that God does not change. This however, is detracting from the issue of religiosity. God placed this on a chosen race for a reason. I am focusing on this and this alone, as is the OP.

Abram was chosen because he was a good man. A man after God's heart. We see this in his discussion with God over Sodom's destruction. How he reasoned with God. We cannot teach that he was a lucky / random pick. When has God ever done that? We see God chose Paul. Paul was an excellent choice. God clearly saw his heart and chose right. We see impartiality from God as He also chose Judas. God wants us to ''see'' impartiality from Him. He wants us to believe it and not suggest He abuses His omniscience.

 

[Hekuran]

The Jews had rules and regulations enforced on them. Punishments for disobedience and blessings for obedience. That is not up for discussion.

It should be up for more discussion, because you are reading the major theme of the Old Testament wrongly.

Look at the major salvation event, the rescue from Egypt. God hears the cry of his people and acts. He does not apply any test of obedience from them other than to daub their door frames with the blood of a Lamb.

He leads them out of captivity, and only then does God give Moses the Torah in which the people are to live in God's freedom and blessing.

I can't think of any passage in the Old Testament that looks like God offering to open a contract of paying for religious obedience with blessing.

Imagine a family adopts a child. There are no conditions on the adoption, they adopt simply because they are loving and are able. The child does not have to prove anything in advance, just accept the invitation.

Yet, as the child settles in, we would expect the adoptive parents to invest time with the child, explaining the 'house rules', what is acceptable and not, set clear boundaries for behaviour, and help the child to acclimatise to the new surroundings. Good parents might also warn what is likely to happen if the child does not live by the house rules.

I think that analogy fits ok with the Egypt to Promised Land story, and to the story of our salvation in Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

It should be up for more discussion, because you are reading the major theme of the Old Testament wrongly.

Look at the major salvation event, the rescue from Egypt. God hears the cry of his people and acts. He does not apply any test of obedience from them other than to daub their door frames with the blood of a Lamb.

He leads them out of captivity, and only then does God give Moses the Torah in which the people are to live in God's freedom and blessing.

I can't think of any passage in the Old Testament that looks like God offering to open a contract of paying for religious obedience with blessing. .

The Jews died in Egypt. Idolatry got them the death penalty. Homosexuality got them the death penalty. Any form of disobedience resulted in a punishment of sort. This did not happen to the Chinese. This did not happen to the American Indians. This did not happen to the Canaanites. The curse of God's law was with them in the desert. The blessing was the promised land. The blessing was a long life. Not being annihilated by God. The blessing was daily mana from heaven. Shade by day.

A Christian should walk through the desert for God with no promise of a promised land. With no expectations. No desire to test and tempt God.

You have to try and grasp that Jews did not have to love God. That had to obey God. They had the fear of God driving obedience. A Christian has their love for God driving them to obedience.

Imagine a family adopts a child. There are no conditions on the adoption, they adopt simply because they are loving and are able. The child does not have to prove anything in advance, just accept the invitation.

The Jews are never referred to as God's children or His bride. They are His people. His chosen race. We cannot think of them as an adopted child. Christians are referred to as the bride of Christ. As adopted children.

Yet, as the child settles in, we would expect the adoptive parents to invest time with the child, explaining the 'house rules', what is acceptable and not, set clear boundaries for behaviour, and help the child to acclimatise to the new surroundings. Good parents might also warn what is likely to happen if the child does not live by the house rules.

A Father would not ordain the stoning to death of their children. Or demand they 'test' Him. Your examples only work with Christians. It must also be mentioned that a child will not be booted out for breaking the house rules. Because a child is a child. A bride is a bride. A bride is not a visitor. A chosen domestic worker. These can be removed from the house.

I think that analogy fits ok with the Egypt to Promised Land story, and to the story of our salvation in Jesus

I have often wondered why God needed to choose the Jews. Why couldn't Jesus be born out of any family? Why couldn't He just be found in a river like Moses. Why did God go through all the trouble of, choosing Abram, setting them free from Egypt, giving them prophets, giving them laws, protecting them, literally speaking to them behind the veil in the temple, miracle after miracle, blessing them financially, interacting weekly and with every generation. Why?

The only logical conclusion I can come up with is 1. respect and 2. as a sign to all of God's nature.

1. Respect. God choosing a bloodline for Jesus was God's way of preparing / neatening the room He was to be born in.

2. A sign. I can't stop thinking about the population of the earth increasing significantly at this time. At the time of say Cain and Abel. God was / would visit Cain and give him an opportunity to repent. Or people could hear directly from Noah on what pleases God. But now with mass population, death of Noah and others, this would just not work. He chose Abram at a perfect time. The Jews were / are a sign to all of what pleases and displeases God. Evidenced by their blessings and curses. Blessings and curses is religiosity / Judaism 101.

Today, we are not killed if we are homosexual. No curse enforced. But, because we can read the 'signs' we can know that God utterly hates this and His wrath on those that practice this will come to pass. Now, being an OSAS believer, I would argue a child would never be able to do such. Perhaps a once off, but not ongoing mortal sin.

I don't believe a child can ever be disowned. I don't believe a child will ever bear the curse of the law. Law's are not written on tablets and manuals for brides and children. They are written on hearts.

 

[Hekuran]

You have to try and grasp that Jews did not have to love God. That had to obey God. They had the fear of God driving obedience. A Christian has their love for God driving them to obedience.

Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

 

[KingJ]

Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Deut 22:24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

A Jew was stoned to death in the above verse because they committed adultery. If they did not want to be stoned to death they had to not commit adultery. Now you and I can debate that committing adultery is evidence of not loving God all day long. There is truth to that. But that is however a separate issue.

I wrote ''Jews did not have to love God''. I wrote ''the fear of God was driving them''. Ever imagine being present at a stoning? The fear of God and His law is permanently imprinted in your mind.

We know that prophets that went to heaven must have loved God at a depth of intent. We can also know that all those that landed up in Abraham's bosom must have too. This all is however a separate issue to the curse of the law. David, can repent all day long for his mortal sins. Write another thousand psalms. He will still not be alleviated from the curse of the law / being find guilty of a mortal sin warranting death by stoning.

 

[B-A-C]

Now you and I can debate that committing adultery is evidence of not loving God all day long. There is truth to that. But that is however a separate issue.

Is it?

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

 

[KingJ]

Is it?

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Please can you better explain what you are saying. Are you saying David is in hell? David did not love God?

 

[B-A-C]

Please can you better explain what you are saying. Are you saying David is in hell? David did not love God?

Of course he did. But I'm not the one who said people in the OT didn't love God (more accurately didn't "have" to love God).
That was my point. Was David any different from Abraham? Noah? Joseph? ... several others... in this respect?

 

[KingJ]

Of course he did. But I'm not the one who said people in the OT didn't love God (more accurately didn't "have" to love God).
That was my point. Was David any different from Abraham? Noah? Joseph? ... several others... in this respect?

The reason the prophets you mentioned were chosen is because they loved God more then others. Every prophet there stood head and shoulders above others. As I always quote, God said of David 'there is a guy I can use for anything'.

Now, this love for God did not over ride the curse of the law. David committed adultery and death by stoning was to be his punishment. All these prophets I am sure yearned for the era we are living in. Now, some are espousing we return to their era...? An era where your love for God did not carry 'any' weight with disobedience to the law.

 

[Hekuran]

@KingJ I strongly recommend you spend some time reading the book of Deuteronomy from beginning to end with fresh eyes. Ask yourself where you can see grace, and love and God's favour there.

 

[B-A-C]

Now, some are espousing we return to their era...? An era where your love for God did not carry 'any' weight with disobedience to the law.

I'm still not convinced it ever changed.

Our love for God is shown in our obedience.

old testament
Exod 20:6; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deut 5:10; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

new testament
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

His love for us depends on our obedience

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

I would word this probably the opposite of what you said above.
Our obedience to the law carries weight with how much God loves us, and how much we love Him.

Matt 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The whole law depends on our love... even in the new testament. I find it interesting
that Jesus was asked for only "one" (the greatest) commandment.
But Jesus didn't give just one as the answer. It seems both commandments (about love)
carry equal weight.