OSAS vrs NOSAS or losing salvation

[jiggyfly]

These verses are not talking about our eternal salvation, but our works.
Whether they be of our selves, or done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

We, even as Christians lean to much to our own understanding, and go about trying to please God in our own efforts.

I wonder sometimes how often we really go to the Lord, in prayer, and ask him, Lord what should we do about this situation, do you want us to go here, do this?
Do we really seek his face, his precepts, his way ,his truth, his life,
Or do we just start the day, doing what we think is before us to do, and like the two Kings in 1KIngs 22: inquire of false prophets to our detriment?
Are we really in the word, do we seek to understand his word, or just take for granite that what we've been told is true?
Have we ever taken the words we think we understand, and do an exegeses on them to know what they really mean?

We cannot produce spiritual fruit unless we abide in Christ.

What is fruit, in a Christians life?

It isnt salvation, that was a free gift, given by our Lord, and Savior.

Fruit is the works he has given us to do, because of our salvation.

We are either walking in the flesh, or His Spirit. These two are contrary to one another.
One will produce wood, hay stubble, and will be burned, yet so we will be saved, though by fire. 1Cor. 3: 15
The other is fruit through the spirit, producing righteous fruit of the spirit. Romans 7:4-5 The rest of the chapter is good also.

There are many references of fruit...Good fruit, bad fruit...it is most often the results of what our lives produce. :friends:

I disagree this scripture is not about our works at all, the only worker in this context is God the husbandman or gardner. The whole emphasize is about abiding with Christ and that if we don't abide than He with all that He is, including Life cannot abide in us.

 

[Gracealone]

Fruit, and works, seems you mentioned them in your post.
are they not synonymous?
Works, apart from our abiding in the branch are our own labors, and they are in vain.....they cant save us.

Fruit?

Well, In Christ, fruit just happens.....

These verses are still not talking about losing ones salvation, but what kind of fruit, are we bearing.
The two verses you quoted are these

My true disciples produce much "fruit". This brings great glory to my Father.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by" wicked works", yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and...

How do you see this?

I would like better understanding if you will please.

 

[jiggyfly]

First let me say that I attribute any good fruit to be the result of God working in us through the power of HolySpirit. Where James speaks of faith and works I see both being of God from the very start, we are just the vessels.

Now regarding Paul's statement to the believers at Colossi.
Colossians 1:19-23
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, 20*and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. 21*This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, 22*yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. 23*But you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.


This text is full of revelation and Truth, but it conflicts with most of the doctrines and teachings concerning God's plan of reconciliation that are presented today. It's meaning is simple until we try to make it fit with our religious paradigms, only then does it become complicated and difficult to understand.

First off we can see that it pleased Father to dwell in His Son and reconcile all things to Himself. Just in that one sentence we see that on God's side there is no resentment, He was pleased to do it.

Second, we see that Father is at peace with everything and everyone everywhere, because of Christ's sacrifice at calvary. Now that means Father is at peace with us but it doesn't mean that we are at peace with Him, there lies the conflict and struggle, it is within us. We still struggle with God's grace and full pardon because we want to be justified in and of ourselves. HolySpirit is here working in and among us to bring us to be at peace with God.


Third, we will have to refer to the old covenant worship liturgy to understand this next point more fully. The inner sanctuary, the Holy of Holies was the room of God's presence. The high priest had to prepare himself to enter and if he was not blameless he would die right then and there. For this reason the high priest had bells on his robe and a rope tied to his ankle so that if the bells became quite the other priests pulled the high peist out by the rope. Because of calvary we can now be in the presence of God and we do not drop dead. This is the evidence that Christ's sacrifice satisfied God and we are now holy, blameless and without a single fault as far as God is concerned.

Now the last point is that we must continue to believe this, which means we must not struggle with God's unmerited grace. When I think I can do this or that and be more pleasing to God we have already began to rebel against His grace and His authority. When HolySpirit makes the truth of God's grace a reality in us, we rest from our own works and let HolySpirit control our lives. In turn His fruit is evident in us and shows that we are connected with Christ and that Christ's life is not only resident but flowing through us.

The reality of this truth being understood is the beginning of truely maturing spiritually and denying self and the rebellion dwindles and struggles deminish until we are at peace with God just as He is already at peace with us.

Now there is more to this context than what I have shared but this seems to be a good stopping point and get your input.

 

[Gracealone]

I guess I can see your struggle with just resting in Christ, but I dont.

I believe I have a full pardon, right now,and I'm at peace with God.

We have been given an earnest of our inheritance, and we will see the fullness of it when Jesus calls us home.

I have known his faithfulness for over
65 years, and no one can make me doubt him now, or ever.

So, for me, I have spoke my heart, and see no further need to continue.
There is much confusion, in a multitude of words, and God is not the author of confusion.

At this point, I rest in the salvation, and love of my Lord, trust he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day.....Grace, and peace to you too, I pray

Until the day God calls us home, be blessed.
:friends:

 

[jiggyfly]

I guess I can see your struggle with just resting in Christ, but I dont.

I believe I have a full pardon, right now,and I'm at peace with God.

We have been given an earnest of our inheritance, and we will see the fullness of it when Jesus calls us home.

I have known his faithfulness for over
65 years, and no one can make me doubt him now, or ever.

So, for me, I have spoke my heart, and see no further need to continue.
There is much confusion, in a multitude of words, and God is not the author of confusion.

At this point, I rest in the salvation, and love of my Lord, trust he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day.....Grace, and peace to you too, I pray
Until the day God calls us home, be blessed.
:friends:

I no longer struggle but rest in Christ concerning this, but I think maybe you are misunderstanding my post but thats ok. Just wondering what day you are refering to?

 

[Gracealone]

2 Timothy1:12-14
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom, I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him,against that day.

That day.....
The Judgment seat of Christ.

I have committed my eternal soul unto my Lord, Jesus Christ, and he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him.

No wonder I love him so.

 

[jiggyfly]

2 Timothy1:12-14
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom, I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him,against that day.

That day.....
The Judgment seat of Christ.

I have committed my eternal soul unto my Lord, Jesus Christ, and he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him.

No wonder I love him so.

I don't understand why you would be comitting anything to Christ against judgment day if you already have salvation.

 

[Gracealone]

You lack understanding.....
1Peter 4:17

For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what will the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment begins in the house of God, but not judgment of our position, or salvation, but our walk.

1Peter 4:18 and if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly,and sinner appear?

1Peter 4: 19
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Read all of 1 Peter 4:

 

[jiggyfly]

You lack understanding.....
1Peter 4:17

For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what will the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment begins in the house of God, but not judgment of our position, or salvation, but our walk.

1Peter 4:18 and if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly,and sinner appear?

1Peter 4: 19
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Read all of 1 Peter 4:

Does that mean that you don't lack understanding?

So you believe that the judgment that begins with the "House of God" starts on judgment day? When are the unbelievers judged?

Why commit your soul to God for Him to keep against that day if you already are saved and have eternal life????

 

[Copper25]

The judged Churches

jiggyfly, look at some of the churches Christ rebuked in Revelation 2 and 3 and look where they are at now and for that matter if they still stand, which some of them don't, why because Christ has removed their candle stick and has judged.

 

[jiggyfly]

So, for me, I have spoke my heart, and see no further need to continue.
Until the day God calls us home, be blessed.
:friends:

Ok Gracealone, I will respect your decision and we leave it there.

I may still respond to some of your posts in the future, not for a response from you but for the benefit of others who may be reading the thread and share the same paradigm. God bless

 

[Gracealone]

Ok Gracealone, I will respect your decision and we leave it there.

I may still respond to some of your posts in the future, not for a response from you but for the benefit of others who may be reading the thread and share the same paradigm. God bless<!-- / message --> <!-- sig -->

I see your heart here jiggy.
I'm not speaking my own words, but the truth of God from his Holy Scripture.
I welcome you to respond to any of my post, and I will seek to put forth the truth from Gods word as usual.

Tell me one thing......why are you against the words I have spoken?
Should we not as Christians be speaking the same words from Gods inspired scripture?
Eph.4:2-13

Since this tab doesn't give the whole scripture read it from the Bible also.

This should be our hearts desire to have unity of the spirit, and speak forth the truth.
Rightly dividing the word of truth.....That's my prayer.

 

[jiggyfly]

jiggyfly, look at some of the churches Christ rebuked in Revelation 2 and 3 and look where they are at now and for that matter if they still stand, which some of them don't, why because Christ has removed their candle stick and has judged.

Not sure what your point is Copper25, and not sure when you say "if they still stand" you are refering to the people or some sort of building.

 

[jiggyfly]

I see your heart here jiggy.
I'm not speaking my own words, but the truth of God from his Holy Scripture.
I welcome you to respond to any of my post, and I will seek to put forth the truth from Gods word as usual.

Tell me one thing......why are you against the words I have spoken?
Should we not as Christians be speaking the same words from Gods inspired scripture?
Eph.4:2-13

Since this tab doesn't give the whole scripture read it from the Bible also.

This should be our hearts desire to have unity of the spirit, and speak forth the truth.
Rightly dividing the word of truth.....That's my prayer.

I'm sorry Gracealone I just reread your post and can see I wasn't very clear in my post.

Posted by jiggyfly; Ok Gracealone, I will respect your decision and we leave it there.

I may still respond to some of your posts in the future, not for a response from you but for the benefit of others who may be reading the thread and share the same paradigm. God bless

I didn't mean your posts in other threads of this forum I meant just your posts here in this thread. I may reference some of your posts here in this thread and wanted you to know that it wouldn't be with the intent of trying to keep you responding in this thread. It will be to help others with the same pardigm.


Again sorry about the mix-up.

 

[Gracealone]

I will not be posting for awhile, until I can go back, and review why
I feel constantly under attack for my confidence in Jesus Christ.

From my very first post, expecting fellowship, I have been challenged instead for my faith in Jesus alone.
My confidence that he is able to keep me, that he will deliver me from the wrath to come, as he promised, and that I now have eternal life.

This may be my last word, for I thought I was in a fellowship of like believers, and wondered where all the dis unity was coming from.

That may be because I am the odd ball out.

I totally believe the Bible as Gods infallible word.
I believe no scripture is of private interpretation, that it all has to fit for there are no contradictions in Gods word, and if there seem to be, had better take another look and adjust my thinking to His thoughts, not mine.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture, I believe in eternal security now, by faith in the sacrifice Jesus accomplished, knowing it was totally accepted by God the Father, for Christ rose from the dead, as proof.

I also believe that God protects his own, and that is why the 144,000 Jews in the tribulation are sealed, just as those were protected in Moses day from the plagues, and know that the church has been caught out, and away from this wrath as The Bible says. These 144, 000 are not the church, but tribulation saints. .....

Just bringing to rememberance some of the challenges this site has confronted me with ,and where there seems to be dis unity.

Trully, I came here for a hearts desire to worship, and have fellowship with fellow believers and our common faith.

If that cannot be because we are not in agreement, then as I once said before, it saddens my heart, but I will leave.
This is your home,not mine.
My true home, and I pray yours too, will soon be made manifest in heaven, and there we will have unity of spirit.

I opologise for any conflict, dis agreements, or confusion.

I thought we were all of one mind, and love of the Lord.

Confusion is not of the Lord, so if all this is still a solid problem as you see it, I will leave.

I guess I may have answered my own question, havent I...

As I walk through this door, a sign in my heart says, "You are now entering your mission field." :friends: IN the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, may we grow in faith and unity of the Spirit. amen Ps.133:1 Eph.4:3 Eph.4:13

 

[Boanerges]

Gracealone you are a great sister with a good heart. One cannot expect everyone to agree with oneself. There are many members is the body, all from different backgrounds and teachings. The body is diverse indeed.
The early churches each had not only different doctrines but different cannon and yet they had great love for each other, can we do less? Jesus said we would be known not because of our doctrinal unity but because of our love for one another- selah.

 

[jiggyfly]

I will not be posting for awhile, until I can go back, and review why
I feel constantly under attack for my confidence in Jesus Christ.

From my very first post, expecting fellowship, I have been challenged instead for my faith in Jesus alone.
My confidence that he is able to keep me, that he will deliver me from the wrath to come, as he promised, and that I now have eternal life.

This may be my last word, for I thought I was in a fellowship of like believers, and wondered where all the dis unity was coming from.

That may be because I am the odd ball out.

I totally believe the Bible as Gods infallible word.
I believe no scripture is of private interpretation, that it all has to fit for there are no contradictions in Gods word, and if there seem to be, had better take another look and adjust my thinking to His thoughts, not mine.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture, I believe in eternal security now, by faith in the sacrifice Jesus accomplished, knowing it was totally accepted by God the Father, for Christ rose from the dead, as proof.

I also believe that God protects his own, and that is why the 144,000 Jews in the tribulation are sealed, just as those were protected in Moses day from the plagues, and know that the church has been caught out, and away from this wrath as The Bible says. These 144, 000 are not the church, but tribulation saints. .....

Just bringing to rememberance some of the challenges this site has confronted me with ,and where there seems to be dis unity.

Trully, I came here for a hearts desire to worship, and have fellowship with fellow believers and our common faith.

If that cannot be because we are not in agreement, then as I once said before, it saddens my heart, but I will leave.
This is your home,not mine.
My true home, and I pray yours too, will soon be made manifest in heaven, and there we will have unity of spirit.

I opologise for any conflict, dis agreements, or confusion.

I thought we were all of one mind, and love of the Lord.

Confusion is not of the Lord, so if all this is still a solid problem as you see it, I will leave.

I guess I may have answered my own question, havent I...

As I walk through this door, a sign in my heart says, "You are now entering your mission field." :friends: IN the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, may we grow in faith and unity of the Spirit. amen Ps.133:1 Eph.4:3 Eph.4:13

Well Gracealone I don't think you are the odd ball, but rather that you are one among many who hold to the same religious doctrines which you have mentioned in your post. Some of which I agree with and some of which I do not. I think if anyone here at TJ is an odd ball it is me, but I'm quite used to it since I have stopped participating in any kind of religious liturgy and gatherings.

I believe that we can have eternal security in Christ by abiding in Him because He is faithful, but I don't believe anyone including Mr. Stanely can have eternal security apart from abiding in Christ. Jesus Himself said whoever has the Son has Life and whoever doesn't have the Son doesn't have life. I am all for trusting in Christ and if you were to go back and read my posts here including those from the beginning you would see that it is the one constant point of my posts is trust in Christ.

I believe that there is no other way which is why I say no one has been given salvation or eternal life as a gift apart from Christ Himself. If one falls away from Christ "who is our life" they have no salvation or eternal life. The prodigal is a good example, he was eating pig slop until he returned to his father and then his father restored him and had a BBQ. If we were given our salvation and eternal life and responsible for it we would do the same thing the prodigal did with his, squander it away till there was nothing left. We are secure in Christ as long as we abide in Christ.

I know you think that I lack understanding concerning this issue, but I assure you that isn't the case, I understand both OSAS and NOSAS but I disagree with both of them. While my understanding of the scriptures that have been discussed here in this thread are not common today, I assure you that they are not new, my understanding of these scriptures go back much further than either OSAS and NOSAS were shared by most of the first and second century believers.


Yes we disagree on this issue for now but I have all confidence in Jesus Christ that by the power of HolySpirit we will all be on the same page one day. I am also confident that on that day we will find out that many of the doctrines of the baptist were wrong, and the pentecostal holiness people were wrong and the catholics were wrong and the protestants were wrong, the calvinist were wrong, the arminians were wrong, the KJVO people were wrong and so on.

Seems I pushed Coconut off of the old soap box and had a go of it myself, but I want you to understand that I trust in Christ and in Him alone and that I despise anything and everything that encourages anything else.

 

[Coconut]

I personally don't side with either salvation doctrine.

1Peter 1:5&6
5*And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 6*So be truly glad!* There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for you to endure many trials for a while.

1Thessalonians 5:8-10
8*But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9*For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10*who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11* Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 9:27&28
27*And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment, 28*so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

So according to these scriptures salvation is something we are waiting to receive.

So how can we lay hold of something that hasn't been given? We have been given the promise of salvation and the hope of salvation for sure but we do not have salvation yet.

Now in this same way how can someone loose something that they do not have?

Seems I pushed Coconut off of the old soap box and had a go of it myself, but I want you to understand that I trust in Christ and in Him alone and that I despise anything and everything that encourages anything else.

I told someone yesterday that they left nothing out for me to say, and they said its `bout time

Keep preaching like this and i`ll be happy to take a sabbatical

 

[Gracealone]

One cannot expect everyone to agree with oneself.[/QUOTE[

You see Boanerges, that is the cry of my heart!

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, myself ,or I ,but as Christians, having the inspired word of God, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, should we not, through that, have unity in our beliefs?

If we all bring our spirits under the control of the Holy Spirit,for The word says, we need not any man to teach us, but the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. and we have the inspired word of God as our foundation for truth, shouldn't we have unity of our Faith?

I believe that was the cry of Pauls heart also?

Can we not get self out of the way,and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us?
He doesn't say one thing here, and another there, so what is wrong with us?

No wonder we have lost influence in the world for Christ, we stand in a circle, and shoot at each other!
How is that different from the world?

Yes, Love covers a multitude of sins, but we need to Love God, and his word above all else, then we wouldn't need to cover so many faults. We would be at peace with God, and each other, and Love would shine so bright it would draw men unto him, for the want of what we have.

My spirit is troubled by this.

Does it not concern anyone else?

 

[Gracealone]

I believe that we can have eternal security in Christ by abiding in Him because He is faithful, but I don't believe anyone including Mr. Stanely can have eternal security apart from abiding in Christ. Jesus Himself said whoever has the Son has Life and whoever doesn't have the Son doesn't have life. I am all for trusting in Christ and if you were to go back and read my posts here including those from the beginning you would see that it is the one constant point of my posts is trust in Christ.

I believe that there is no other way which is why I say no one has been given salvation or eternal life as a gift apart from Christ Himself. If one falls away from Christ "who is our life" they have no salvation or eternal life. The prodigal is a good example, he was eating pig slop until he returned to his father and then his father restored him and had a BBQ. If we were given our salvation and eternal life and responsible for it we would do the same thing the prodigal did with his, squander it away till there was nothing left. We are secure in Christ as long as we abide in Christ.

The first statement above, goes without question!
Of course we have to abide in Christ, and what born again Christian wont?
WE are born again!
Old things have passed away, behold all things are become new.

Of course anyone apart from Christ, has no eternal security...That is without question too.
They have not been born again, and if they were to stand before the Father he would say,"Depart from me, I NEVER knew you!"

What I have heard said here is even those who have trusted in Christ has no security......That goes against the written word, for he is able to keep us from falling.....and we have the confidence in him that what we have committed unto him he is able to keep, against that day.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in us, will never leave us.

Jesus said ,Those who come to me, I will in no wise cast out.
WE either believe him, or we don't....that is the question.

The prodigal Son is a picture of losing fellowship by living a carnal life, not ones salvation.
The Son, remained a Son, and when he repented and came home he came to open arms of love....
The Bible teaches if it were possible to lose ones salvation, we would have to crucify Christ all over again....Hebrews 6:1-6 for it is impossible to bring him to repentance again.....
See what the word is saying?