OSAS vrs NOSAS or losing salvation

[jiggyfly]

This thread was started from thread of another topic I moved the posts here to prevent derailing the other thread.

I find this a bit laughable really of coure we have free will.

Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whome you will serve.

we have choice alright and GOd does not take this away when we come to Him we always have choice.

you know its funny people think that we imperfect beings can not chose to leave God after we have accepted Him. Yet even Satan himself an angel who was made perfect was able to chose to leave God. and many angels with him.

even Adam and Eve who were made perfect chose to leave God by way of disobedience. hmmm

it is ignorance to say that we can not lose salvation after accepting it. we can lose it the same way we got it. free choice.

once saved always saved is a lie. it is conditional on our daily denying of self and carry our cross daily.

Blessings

Very good post Letusgo27, the problem with this kind of salvation debate is the focus. Typically the focus is self and as long as our eyes are on self , truth is hidden.

I personally don't side with either salvation doctrine.

1Peter 1:5&6
5*And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 6*So be truly glad!* There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for you to endure many trials for a while.

1Thessalonians 5:8-10
8*But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9*For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10*who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11* Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 9:27&28
27*And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment, 28*so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

So according to these scriptures salvation is something we are waiting to receive.

So how can we lay hold of something that hasn't been given? We have been given the promise of salvation and the hope of salvation for sure but we do not have salvation yet.

Now in this same way how can someone loose something that they do not have?

We are heirs but we are children and some of us at best, maybe moving through adolesence so we do not receive our inheritance yet but we know when we are mature enough to handle it responsibly Father will give it to us. If He intrusted us with it now we would squander it or be swindled. So He has it in safe keeping for us. There is much more can be said about this but this not the thread for it.

 

[Gracealone]

To say a person, who is truly born again can then be un born again is making lite of Gods promise to keep us, and saying in effect he has not given us eternal life....
When we come to Jesus in true faith we have been given eternal life....Not will be given but have.

Tell me, if your child walks away from you, is he/she still not your child?

Oh, well ,need to run, later !

 

[DeeperStill]

Very good post Letusgo27, the problem with this kind of salvation debate is the focus. Typically the focus is self and as long as our eyes are on self , truth is hidden.

I personally don't side with either salvation doctrine.

1Peter 1:5&6
5*And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 6*So be truly glad!* There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for you to endure many trials for a while.

1Thessalonians 5:8-10
8*But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9*For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10*who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11* Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 9:27&28
27*And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment, 28*so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

So according to these scriptures salvation is something we are waiting to receive.

So how can we lay hold of something that hasn't been given? We have been given the promise of salvation and the hope of salvation for sure but we do not have salvation yet.

Now in this same way how can someone loose something that they do not have?

We are heirs but we are children and some of us at best, maybe moving through adolesence so we do not receive our inheritance yet but we know when we are mature enough to handle it responsibly Father will give it to us. If He intrusted us with it now we would squander it or be swindled. So He has it in safe keeping for us. There is much more can be said about this but this not the thread for it.

of course, this is a wrong understanding of scripture. because Jesus would never send his Spirit into us and make us a new person, giving us a new nature, filling us with His Spirit or enabling us to understand his word or do good works, if our salvation was a future promise.

This truly is sad and disappointing to me personally to find so many people misunderstanding Gods true character. It seems clear that we are all guilty of putting God into our man-made boxes and selling Him short because of our own lack of faith.. sad, sad sad...

T

see this link--> http://www.talkjesus.com/get-saved-now/25997-saved.html#post129868

 

[jiggyfly]

of course, this is a wrong understanding of scripture. because Jesus would never send his Spirit into us and make us a new person, giving us a new nature, filling us with His Spirit or enabling us to understand his word or do good works, if our salvation was a future promise.

This truly is sad and disappointing to me personally to find so many people misunderstanding Gods true character. It seems clear that we are all guilty of putting God into our man-made boxes and selling Him short because of our own lack of faith.. sad, sad sad...

T

see this link--> http://www.talkjesus.com/get-saved-now/25997-saved.html#post129868

I didn't say anything of eternal life but please by all means explain the scriptures I posted with the correct understanding.

 

[jiggyfly]

To say a person, who is truly born again can then be un born again is making lite of Gods promise to keep us, and saying in effect he has not given us eternal life....
When we come to Jesus in true faith we have been given eternal life....Not will be given but have.

Tell me, if your child walks away from you, is he/she still not your child?

Oh, well ,need to run, later !

I totally agree that one cannot be unborn. But what does being born-again entitle one to?

 

[Gracealone]

1John 5:13: Is what I base my conviction on.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The power of the word is HAVE eternal Life.....

How eternal is eternal?
If He isn't able to keep us,as he promised then it isn't eternal, and his word that says it is not of ourselves, but a gift from God isn't true either, and our faith is useless.
Our hope is vague, and we can have no confidence in his hope, and his death was of no account.
We couldn't save ourselves and we cant keep ourselves, it is a gift from God.....Praise his name forever.....
I have full assurance he kept me, for I turned away form him for a 10 year period, and
when he drew me back, it wasn't said to me you have lost your salvation, but the Holy Spirit said, You need to return or you may lose your mind.
I returned, like the prodigal Son, and he welcomed me back with open arms, of Love.

We may lose rewards for our miss conduct, but not our salvation. 1Cor.3:14-15

 

[DeeperStill]

I didn't say anything of eternal life but please by all means explain the scriptures I posted with the correct understanding.

with your understanding, Nobody is saved until we turn in our I.O.U's to Jesus at the judgement. Your understanding means that our salvation is nothing more in this life time than a repeating of a vow to God saying we believe, but that this belief means nothing until Jesus saves us sometime in the future. That is not His promise to us. If our salvation is nothing more than a future promise, than his forgiveness is nothing more than a future promise. This would mean that we are not justified in Christ in this life. It means that our sins have not yet been forgiven. That we still carry the guilt and shame.

We are justified by his death upon the cross. We are sanctified by his word, the HOly Spirit comes in us at the moment we believe., We are sealed by the HOly Spirit. NOT Later but now. We cannot grow in Christ without first being justified in Christ. WE cannot even Obey God without His Spirit being in us. If we must wait for this salvation, than we are without hope because we die in our sins.

Romans 8:16.. " The HOly Spirit bares witness with our spirit that we ARE Children of God."

it does not say " will be children of God one day", It says ARE. This means from the moment you are justified.

I think you are confusing the salvation issue because you do not understand that God is outside of time. He is infinite and to God, the moment we accept His free gift of saving grace, we are born again, we are saved. With God, this is not a future event. Its right now!!

God does not glorify an unsaved man. God only sanctifies a saved man, and God only saves sinners. First He justifies us ( just as if I had never sinned = born again), than he sanctifies us by His word ( where we grow more and more like Christ each day), then he glorifies us as he was glorified.

As children of God we have taken part in His death and resurrection. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.. the hope of glory"

you see , salvation is not only a future promise. Its a present reality. We are saved ( justified ) we are being saved ( sanctified ) and we will be saved ( glorified ). It covers our lives from our new birth to all eternity.

T

 

[jiggyfly]

with your understanding, Nobody is saved until we turn in our I.O.U's to Jesus at the judgement. Your understanding means that our salvation is nothing more in this life time than a repeating of a vow to God saying we believe, but that this belief means nothing until Jesus saves us sometime in the future. That is not His promise to us. If our salvation is nothing more than a future promise, than his forgiveness is nothing more than a future promise. This would mean that we are not justified in Christ in this life. It means that our sins have not yet been forgiven. That we still carry the guilt and shame.

We are justified by his death upon the cross. We are sanctified by his word, the HOly Spirit comes in us at the moment we believe., We are sealed by the HOly Spirit. NOT Later but now. We cannot grow in Christ without first being justified in Christ. WE cannot even Obey God without His Spirit being in us. If we must wait for this salvation, than we are without hope because we die in our sins.

Romans 8:16.. " The HOly Spirit bares witness with our spirit that we ARE Children of God."

it does not say " will be children of God one day", It says ARE. This means from the moment you are justified.

I think you are confusing the salvation issue because you do not understand that God is outside of time. He is infinite and to God, the moment we accept His free gift of saving grace, we are born again, we are saved. With God, this is not a future event. Its right now!!

God does not glorify an unsaved man. God only sanctifies a saved man, and God only saves sinners. First He justifies us ( just as if I had never sinned = born again), than he sanctifies us by His word ( where we grow more and more like Christ each day), then he glorifies us as he was glorified.

As children of God we have taken part in His death and resurrection. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.. the hope of glory"

you see , salvation is not only a future promise. Its a present reality. We are saved ( justified ) we are being saved ( sanctified ) and we will be saved ( glorified ). It covers our lives from our new birth to all eternity.

T

But your post does nothing to correct my "misunderstanding" of the scriptures I posted.

1Peter 1:5&6
5*And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 6*So be truly glad!* There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for you to endure many trials for a while.

1Thessalonians 5:8-10
8*But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9*For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10*who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11* Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 9:27&28
27*And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment, 28*so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Can you explain what these three scriptures mean?

 

[jiggyfly]

Posted by Gracealone; 1John 5:13: Is what I base my conviction on.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The power of the word is HAVE eternal Life.....

How eternal is eternal?
If He isn't able to keep us,as he promised then it isn't eternal, and his word that says it is not of ourselves, but a gift from God isn't true either, and our faith is useless.
Our hope is vague, and we can have no confidence in his hope, and his death was of no account.
We couldn't save ourselves and we cant keep ourselves, it is a gift from God.....Praise his name forever.....
I have full assurance he kept me, for I turned away form him for a 10 year period, and
when he drew me back, it wasn't said to me you have lost your salvation, but the Holy Spirit said, You need to return or you may lose your mind.
I returned, like the prodigal Son, and he welcomed me back with open arms, of Love.

We may lose rewards for our miss conduct, but not our salvation. 1Cor.3:14-15

But I don't see born-again in this scripture? For now let's just deal with "born-Again".

 

[Gracealone]

But I don't see born-again in this scripture? For now let's just deal with "born-Again". <!-- / message --> <!-- sig -->

I know of one place it says ,"You must be born again" and that was Jesus talking to Nicodemus......may be others, but ......

Other places in the Bible it say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved....it doesn't have to be identical words to mean the same thing, so to say It doesn't say "born again", we still know what it means because no scripture is of private interpretation.

The Jailer was told, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved....again he didn't say born again but we know what he means.

Doesn't that makes sense to you?

Sorry but that really puzzles me. :shock:

 

[DeeperStill]

I don't mean to be rude. So please take what I say as being IN a discussion on a controversial subject.

You throw out scriptures; one at a time , using them as if they are proof verses. If you would read those verses within context and take a look at the whole picture instead of one small piece you would see that you are building your theology by esegesis instead of exegesis.

For example, take your first verse 1 Peter and read past the verses you post to the end of the chapter.

Take note of 1 peter 1:22 and 23.

Take notice of the tense used in these verses.

Since you have ( past tense ) purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart ( cant have a pure heart unless you are already born again.

Having been Born Again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible Seed which lives and abides Forever!!!

These two verses, written in the past tense, declare that the pilgrims of which peter is talking to have already been born again. (Past tense ) and that salvation is not of a seed that perishes away but of a seed that lasts forever.)


What you are missing is that our salvation is a salvation from the day we sincerely ask Jesus into our hearts ( past = a certain day in the past), Today ( present ) , and future ( the hope of our salvation, our glorification)


We are saved
We are being saved
and We shall be saved.

past, present and future.

I wont go into the other vverses because I think you can see that you need to stop ripping things out of context to fit your theology and start wrapping your mind around the truth that salvation is not just a future event. It is a present reality. You are born again of incorruptible seed.

Now, speaking of the incorruptible seed let me say this

Whoever is born (again) of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9

 

[Gracealone]

Yes, Amen!

When we are born again, we have a new life.

These bodies will die because of sin, but the new, which is of the Holy Spirit will never die.
He is the earnest of our inheritance.
Christ in us, the hope of glory.

 

[jiggyfly]

I don't mean to be rude. So please take what I say as being IN a discussion on a controversial subject.

You throw out scriptures; one at a time , using them as if they are proof verses. If you would read those verses within context and take a look at the whole picture instead of one small piece you would see that you are building your theology by esegesis instead of exegesis.

For example, take your first verse 1 Peter and read past the verses you post to the end of the chapter.

Take note of 1 peter 1:22 and 23.

Take notice of the tense used in these verses.

Since you have ( past tense ) purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart ( cant have a pure heart unless you are already born again.

Having been Born Again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible Seed which lives and abides Forever!!!

These two verses, written in the past tense, declare that the pilgrims of which peter is talking to have already been born again. (Past tense ) and that salvation is not of a seed that perishes away but of a seed that lasts forever.)


What you are missing is that our salvation is a salvation from the day we sincerely ask Jesus into our hearts ( past = a certain day in the past), Today ( present ) , and future ( the hope of our salvation, our glorification)


We are saved
We are being saved
and We shall be saved.

past, present and future.

I wont go into the other vverses because I think you can see that you need to stop ripping things out of context to fit your theology and start wrapping your mind around the truth that salvation is not just a future event. It is a present reality. You are born again of incorruptible seed.

Now, speaking of the incorruptible seed let me say this

Whoever is born (again) of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9

Again let's deal with the verses I posted please. I believe that you are the one guilty of ripping out scripture to fit your theology. I think that you are ignoring what the scriptures say. So please correct my understanding of these three scriptures. So far you have just been sidestepping them.:shock:

 

[jiggyfly]

I know of one place it says ,"You must be born again" and that was Jesus talking to Nicodemus......may be others, but ......

Other places in the Bible it say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved....it doesn't have to be identical words to mean the same thing, so to say It doesn't say "born again", we still know what it means because no scripture is of private interpretation.

The Jailer was told, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved....again he didn't say born again but we know what he means.

Doesn't that makes sense to you?

Sorry but that really puzzles me. :shock:

Did Jesus tell Nicodemus that you when you are born again you are saved or that you have salvation or did He say that you must be born again to see the kingdom?

Secondly there is a difference between are saved and shall be saved.

 

[DeeperStill]

Mom,, its time....

Jiggy, please excuse me from further discussion on your thread.

Thank you

FINI

Oh, and btw, this discussion is not on OSAS or NOOSAS, this discussion is "is salvation for now or for the future"

 

[jiggyfly]

Mom,, its time....

Jiggy, please excuse me from further discussion on your thread.

Thank you

FINI

Oh, and btw, this discussion is not on OSAS or NOOSAS, this discussion is "is salvation for now or for the future"

Well regardless you failed to give any explaination of the scriptures I posted, but come on back when you can explain I'm all ears:shade:

 

[jiggyfly]

John 3:3-7
3*Jesus replied, “I assure you, unless you are born again,* you can never see the Kingdom of God.”
4*“What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
5*Jesus replied, “The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.* 6*Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. 7*So don’t be surprised at my statement that you* must be born again. 8 Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

Jesus says here that no one can see or enter the Kingdom unless they are born of the Spirit, it is a requisite to seeing and entering the Kingdom of God. Much like a highschool diploma is a requisite to attending colledge, but not everyone who receives a H.S. diploma enters college.

This reminds me of another account in the scriptures.

Matthew 18:1-4
1*About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Which of us is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?”
2*Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them. 3*Then he said, “I assure you, unless you turn from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4*Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Notice here that the disciples assumed that they were already in and part of the Kingdom, "which of us is greatest in the Kingdom". Jesus responded "unless you become as a child you won't get into the Kingdom".

 

[SpiritLedEd]

OSAS vs NOSAS or losing salvation

this discussion is not on OSAS or NOOSAS, this discussion is "is salvation for now or for the future"

I believe that the answer to this question is "both". The decision to ask Jesus to be my Lord and Savior was an event - the singularly most important event of my life. But, my salvation had to be developed much as a fertilized egg in a mother's womb becomes a fully formed person(see 1 Cor 3:1-2). Salvation is expressed in an ongoing process of development. I must continually surrender my will and my life to God so that my salvation will come to fruition (see Phil 2:12-13).

SLE

 

[Gracealone]

John 17:12 also says:

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Agree we must come to him in simple child like faith and believe......

Can a child then keep himself from harm?

We need the protection of a loving Father, to guide and keep us, just as his word says.

 

[jiggyfly]

John 17:12 also says:

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Agree we must come to him in simple child like faith and believe......

Can a child then keep himself from harm?

We need the protection of a loving Father, to guide and keep us, just as his word says.

Now this I can agree with but again this doesn't mention salvation. I think one of the biggest barriers is that many don't seem to agree on what salvation is or includes. Some say it means being born-again , some say it is being saved from hell, others say it is eternal life and so on. We need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.